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View Full Version : MSO vs regular surfactant question


grassman177
08-09-2011, 07:13 PM
I have long used a surfactant(non ionic of course) called induce with my apps of surge and q4.

it gets pretty ok control as long as the weeds are in good health. but i have talked with a few of you on here about using mso instead and the benefits of it for spraying crabgrass etc.

thing is, i know my limits of the induce and temps/drought stress .

my question is do i have to be more careful with mso for possible burn>? never used it, also, would u use a low, med or high rate along with q4?

thanks

ted putnam
08-09-2011, 08:04 PM
Ditto on that question here as well. I just bought a 5 gal case today. I plan to use it tomorrow. I ordered through BWI because it is not something kept in stock around here. I plan to use it in combo with celsius for hopefully enhanced crabgrass control and the Celsius label recommends it. While temps have cooled somewhat here, we will still be in the low to mid 90's for the next 4-5 days.Didn't mean to hijack your thread grassman, I just have the same concerns. I will read the label this evening but just wondered if someone had a quick answer to my biggest question.

jbturf
08-09-2011, 08:58 PM
maybe riggle can do some side by side tests for us using each?

WestGaPineStraw
08-09-2011, 09:02 PM
I think mso will burn turf, me and my tech burned a few last week with solitare + mso. I believe it was the mso. It was just bermuda. So idk, we are running without mso this week..so I guess I will find out soon enough.
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grassmasterswilson
08-09-2011, 09:44 PM
i use .33oz per 1000 with celcius and had good results. Not as good on mature crab though. I use non ionic with other apps, except some pbi gordon products that don't call for it. MSO is more expensive, but i've only used it with celcius.

RigglePLC
08-09-2011, 10:52 PM
So sorry, I would like to experiment with MSO non-ionic spreader sticker/wetting agents.
However, I do not have any such products (anymore), and I cannot justify buying a whole gallon to use an ounce for an experiment. I mosty used costly silicone-type surfactants like Drench and Lesco Hawkeye. Except for the cheap treatments of late fall when I used detergents. Retired now.

WestGaPineStraw
08-09-2011, 10:56 PM
So sorry, I would like to experiment with MSO non-ionic spreader sticker/wetting agents.
However, I do not have any such products (anymore), and I cannot justify buying a whole gallon to use an ounce for an experiment. I mosty used costly silicone-type surfactants like Drench and Lesco Hawkeye. Except for the cheap treatments of late fall when I used detergents. Retired now.

Riggle,

What if some showed up in your mailbox?
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Hogjaw
08-09-2011, 10:56 PM
Guess you know we will all go to pot now!!!

Enjoy retirement.


So sorry, I would like to experiment with MSO non-ionic spreader sticker/wetting agents.
However, I do not have any such products (anymore), and I cannot justify buying a whole gallon to use an ounce for an experiment. I mosty used costly silicone-type surfactants like Drench and Lesco Hawkeye. Except for the cheap treatments of late fall when I used detergents. Retired now.

grassman177
08-09-2011, 11:02 PM
7 responses, but still unsure of what to expect. i appreciate the celcius response, but too dif to compare i think.

i would think the penetrating abilities of the mso might make it more prone to turf injury and so i want to be prepared. nothing worse than spraying something and it not working properly. ihave never burnt anything on turf with the mix i use now, but i was light on the induce rate(surfactant) and recently upped the rate with no issues but little actual use with that rate too, just one day.

RigglePLC
08-09-2011, 11:18 PM
Four ounces would be enough.

quiet
08-09-2011, 11:19 PM
Can't offer anything other than anecdotal testimony, but I don't notice any more - and possibly less - turf damage with MSO on tif 419.

I've had to back off a bit on apps lately because of the exceptional drought and intense heat, but on the few I've been doing, I've used MSO with no noticeable difference.

Spot sprayed some Johnson Grass with MSMA on a customer's lawn 2 weeks ago. Good thing they're out of town! But it's healing quickly, even faster than I would expect. But this is a properly fertilized and irrigated property.

It's been 106 or 107 every day for the last week or so.

Today was Day 56 over 100. 24 in a row.

grassman177
08-10-2011, 04:06 AM
Four ounces would be enough.

cool, but that is not enough info, enough for what?

grassman177
08-10-2011, 04:08 AM
Can't offer anything other than anecdotal testimony, but I don't notice any more - and possibly less - turf damage with MSO on tif 419.

I've had to back off a bit on apps lately because of the exceptional drought and intense heat, but on the few I've been doing, I've used MSO with no noticeable difference.

Spot sprayed some Johnson Grass with MSMA on a customer's lawn 2 weeks ago. Good thing they're out of town! But it's healing quickly, even faster than I would expect. But this is a properly fertilized and irrigated property.

It's been 106 or 107 every day for the last week or so.

Today was Day 56 over 100. 24 in a row.

cool.

i have some johnson to kill too, but temps are dropped here this week like god send. yesterday it got to 90 but it felt awesome in comparison to the extreme heat we had for few weeks.

i am sure you did not use mso with msma right?

B-Easy
08-10-2011, 09:37 AM
I'm trying some MSO vs an NIS (Alligare 90) on grassy weeds, Foxtail & CG using Quinclorac SPC 75 DF and also with a broadleaf herbicide,Surge. Not much success this year treating CG while mixing with A90. Having no luck killing Spotted Spurge. I have now made it my goal to kill this SOB. I did try adding a little Crossbow (to get some triclopyr BEE) when I was experimentating at home this past weekend. Checked on some last night and it appeared to be smoked! However, this was an extremely inaccurate test and I realize Crossbow is not labeled for residential turf. I am going to mix some MSO w/ the Surge today and hit some Spotted Spurge with it this evening. Surge label indicates you do not need a surfactant except in extreme drought conditions.

I have never noticed any drastic difference between MSO and other surfactants with regards to turf damage.

jad004
08-10-2011, 03:09 PM
I think mso will burn turf, me and my tech burned a few last week with solitare + mso. I believe it was the mso. It was just bermuda. So idk, we are running without mso this week..so I guess I will find out soon enough.
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Sure you burned the turf. The label says that will happen if you add any type of surfactant or adjuvants to solitaire. Big bold letters under Use of Surfactants. It also states it in the restrictions for use.

I discolor hybrid bermuda just a little without adding anything to solitaire and using medium rate (0.5 oz)

Back to the MSO, I used it with my Drive yesterday. I was spraying it through my new Z Spray so I went half rate with the Drive because I was scared of burning with the new machine. Haven't used MSO before yesterday so I'm curious to see the results. Dry and Hot here.

fl-landscapes
08-10-2011, 03:35 PM
jmo opinion and maybe ric or green doctor can explain better but I believe the mode of action would make mso more likely to cause a burn in an application. Spreader breaks surface tention and sticker does just that, helps bind whatever is applied to whatever is sprayed. mso is a penetrant and disolves waxy surfaces and such to get penetration into weeds. That penatrating process imo makes any chemical applied hotter. Like I said I am sure ric or greendoc can explain furter or correct me if need be.

RigglePLC
08-10-2011, 04:25 PM
If I had 4 ounces of MSO I would do a test to see if it would injure grass or perhaps improve Drive or T-zone action. Maybe I can find some small packages of some stickers for a test.

ted putnam
08-10-2011, 05:38 PM
The label(Which I read before use of any product and I suggest EVERYONE does this) for the MSO I just bought says to use 1-5 pints/acre. This comes to .36-1.83oz/1000. For use with herbicides only. I would never use 1.83 oz/k of any type of surfactant unless the label for the herbicide I planned to use it with plainly said to. I used .5oz/k today and would probably never use more than 1 oz/k under cool wet conditions. By the way, I considered the price reasonable. I paid $58+tax for a 5 gal case.

RigglePLC
08-10-2011, 08:44 PM
Surfactants (spreaders, stickers, and wetters) are not normally applied on a thousand sq ft basis; they are measured as pints per hundred gallons, or ounces per 10 gallons.

fl-landscapes
08-10-2011, 09:00 PM
Surfactants (spreaders, stickers, and wetters) are not normally applied on a thousand sq ft basis; they are measured as pints per hundred gallons, or ounces per 10 gallons.

Or percent solution .25% is a good starting point
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quiet
08-10-2011, 11:48 PM
i am sure you did not use mso with msma right?

Yes, I did. The label on my bottle of Target 6.6 says, "It's activity is enhanced by a suitable sufactant."

ted putnam
08-11-2011, 01:24 AM
If I had 4 ounces of MSO I would do a test to see if it would injure grass or perhaps improve Drive or T-zone action. Maybe I can find some small packages of some stickers for a test.

When I first started with Chemlawn, they had a Research Center at their Columbus,OH corporate headquarters. Maybe LawnSite needs to establish one in Grand Rapids, MI.:laugh:

grassman177
08-11-2011, 07:48 PM
Yes, I did. The label on my bottle of Target 6.6 says, "It's activity is enhanced by a suitable sufactant."

yup, i was actually meaning that it was a good thing, bad typing.

used some today myself

grassman177
08-11-2011, 07:50 PM
i have great luck with surge and surfactants. it is pretty needed since it is a water based product. it can bead up on weeds of you dont use surfactants. i have seen it happen and get eradic control in that case.

clemsonturf
08-11-2011, 09:53 PM
I've experienced no ill effects with MSO vs any other adjuvant. I use plenty @ 95 deg +

...and yes I've used it with MSMA when paired with quinclorac. The MSMA burned just the same

grassman177
08-11-2011, 11:16 PM
good to know, thanks very much for that info, but you might also be spraying burmuda and not cool season grasses which could make the dif.

what did you spray on?

FdLLawnMan
08-11-2011, 11:28 PM
I have used both normal surfactant & mso with Drive and have found Drive to work better with mso. I am in Wisconsin and have used it up to 90 degrees and the turf is a little stressed with no ill results. If you mix it at the correct ratio you should not have any problem. Have never used it on TTTF as we don't have it up here.

greendoctor
08-12-2011, 05:19 AM
i have great luck with surge and surfactants. it is pretty needed since it is a water based product. it can bead up on weeds of you dont use surfactants. i have seen it happen and get eradic control in that case.

The only way for a surfactant to cause injury is if it forces uptake of herbicides on turf that was in no condition to be treated in the first place. I do have varying rates of surfactant for different conditions. In cold and wet weather, surfactant rates are higher to increase uptake before it rains again. In warm weather, with adequate soil moisture, I use moderate rates. If I am applying bare ground treatments on obviously non irrigated areas, surfactant rates are probably running about 1-2%.

I have seen the same thing in my early years using all amine based weed controls. They were not worth a darn without 0,5% nonionic surfactant. Being that they are polar, water soluble chemicals, an oil based surfactant actually does not help them. These days, most of my herbicides are non polar and water insoluble such as ester and the sulfonylurea herbicides. PBI Gordon makes excellent combination products that do everything they say they will. However, non of them will wet and then penetrate weeds without a little help. Being that Q4 is a quinclorac and 2,4-D ester product, 1/2% MSO is a wise choice. I know that silicone surfactants are the trendy thing to use. What I have seen from them is sprays drying so fast that penetration of active ingredients is compromised. The ideal situation is when a spray coats the leaves of the weed evenly and thickly. The spray itself is breaking down the wax on the leaf and the AI is solvated in either the water or surfactant. Silicone does not act as a solvent and its penetrant claims are based on the concept of the water surface tension being so decreased that it soaks past the stomata.

grassman177
08-12-2011, 09:21 AM
that was certainly informative and technical. appreciated!

i am getting my mso today, but i have had great luck with induce on everything but crabgrass. i am trying to get more out of my quinclorac with mso possibly.

i experimented this week with dif combos of products to see what gave me the best control.

more on that later, gotta get to work.

RAlmaroad
08-12-2011, 01:50 PM
Speaking of percentage of surfactant or MSO--"running about 1-2%". I'm probably the most stupid person here and still don't know what the 1-2% is referring to. It it 1-2% of the total tank volume (i.e. 100 gallon tank=1-2 gallons of surfactant--that ain't right) is it 1-2% of herbicide amount that is being used (i.e 1.85 oz./K X 30 per tank using 3 gallons/K= 55oz) or about 6 oz--that may be or Not right. So what is the right calculation. I've been told by the guru how much to use but how did he get his number? Even the Celsius label is too vague when they state .5 v.v. of MSO. Anybody else "Not Smarter than a 5th Grader"?

greendoctor
08-12-2011, 02:03 PM
The percentage of surfactant is always in relation to the amount of tank mix being made. So, if you are whipping up 100 gallons of Celsius tank mix with 0.5 v v , 1/2 gallon of MSO should go in the tank. For getting the 2+ when I am doing a bare ground mix, the whole 21/2 gallon bottle goes in. I have had to raise the concentration used when killing weeds in cold, cloudy weather to 1% or 1 gallon per 100 gallons. Of course, no injury caused to the grass. Good thing MSO is cheap compared to the trendy surfactants. Mine is $40 per 21/2 gallon.

grassman177
08-12-2011, 03:48 PM
i got mine today and look forward to using it with q4 and drive.

forgot to look at the cost though, figure it is about as cheap as what i am using i think.

GrandMaster
08-13-2011, 09:53 PM
Surfactants (spreaders, stickers, and wetters) are not normally applied on a thousand sq ft basis; they are measured as pints per hundred gallons, or ounces per 10 gallons.

or pints per acre.

GrandMaster
08-13-2011, 09:55 PM
Yes, I did. The label on my bottle of Target 6.6 says, "It's activity is enhanced by a suitable sufactant."

why cant I get target 6.6 anymore here in utah???

fl-landscapes
08-13-2011, 10:52 PM
why cant I get target 6.6 anymore here in utah???

Msma is outlawed
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grassman177
08-14-2011, 12:26 AM
I dont know if I can still buy any, but using my supply up while I can.dont know what to use next year?
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ted putnam
08-14-2011, 12:38 AM
Msma is outlawed
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Not exactly. Using MSMA that does not have a residential turf label is illegal for commercial applicators. A couple of my suppliers are still selling MSMA. However, it doesn't have a residential turf label and the State Plant Board requires them to report names and license numbers of buyers as if it were an RUP. Homeowners can still go to my local Feed store and buy a 2.5gal jug if they want, no questions asked. How F'd Up is that?:confused:
More Bureaucratic BS that makes no sense!

grassman177
08-14-2011, 10:36 AM
it is still available to homeowners?? are you kidding, it is a freaking arsenical and no homeowner takes precautions or wears ppe! they spray in shorts and barefeet for gods sake.

What is wrong with everyone anymore and the stupid stuff they make law that makes no sense at all like this?

ted putnam
08-14-2011, 11:55 AM
We are a rural area. Small farms 5-20 acres with a couple horses a handful of cows is the norm. Yes, there are plenty of neighborhoods with small yards but there is also the other end of the spectrum. MSMA is still available here at feed stores and Co-ops, just not to me....legally....and I'm the one with the license. Like I said before. F'd Up...makes no sense. I still have plenty with the residential label for use next year. After that, I'm SOL.

fl-landscapes
08-14-2011, 01:06 PM
Not exactly. Using MSMA that does not have a residential turf label is illegal for commercial applicators. A couple of my suppliers are still selling MSMA. However, it doesn't have a residential turf label and the State Plant Board requires them to report names and license numbers of buyers as if it were an RUP. Homeowners can still go to my local Feed store and buy a 2.5gal jug if they want, no questions asked. How F'd Up is that?:confused:
More Bureaucratic BS that makes no sense!

I agree with what you said. But for all intents and purposes I was just answering the OP question about why he cant by target 6.6. We all know there are ag label chemicals we are not suppose to use but for anyone who cares to be creative or roll the dice with ag label chemicals (and their lis.), thats their choice. From what I understand at some point in the near future they wont be making msma any longer and you have a dead line to use what you got even if its in an old res. labeled jug.

greendoctor
08-14-2011, 04:23 PM
We are a rural area. Small farms 5-20 acres with a couple horses a handful of cows is the norm. Yes, there are plenty of neighborhoods with small yards but there is also the other end of the spectrum. MSMA is still available here at feed stores and Co-ops, just not to me....legally....and I'm the one with the license. Like I said before. F'd Up...makes no sense. I still have plenty with the residential label for use next year. After that, I'm SOL.

That is wrong. I know of a local feed store here that got whacked for selling Golden Malrin. That contains methomyl, an RUP in Hawaii. Over here, enforcement starts at the sale level. Anyone selling pesticides is held responsible for what is on the label. The DOA audits everyone selling pesticides several times a year. Your co-op would have been busted for selling to someone besides a cotton farmer, sod farmer or golf course.

grassman177
08-14-2011, 04:42 PM
That is what I was referring to,i can't itse it after this year.
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oxk18
10-21-2011, 06:29 PM
Current research and university testing indicate methylated seed oil improves post-emergence herbicides performance.

Use at 1-4 pints per acre (0.4 - 1.5 oz per 1,000 sq.ft) with most post emergent herbicides. Higher Rates may be necessary for some applications.



■high quality oil and surfactants/emulsifiers
■high oil and surfactant load with integrated antifoam system
■rapid penetration of plant leaf tissue
■more efficient than non-ionic surfactants
■droplets remain oily longer
■less viscous than typical plant oils
■maximum utilization and performance in every drop
■spreads herbicides and insecticides quickly and evenly over the leaf surface
■eliminates the need of mixing additional separate additives
■faster at dissolving leaf cuticle waxes for improved control of larger weeds
■allows for more efficient herbicide absorption, providing
consistency over a wide range of environmental conditions, especially under high temperatures and low humidity
■resists evaporation during application and while on the plant leaf surface, lengthening the time for penetration under extreme heat and low humidity
■provides easier mixing

I use MSO everyday...never burn..
If burned turf....Maybe other issue not MSO...

http://www.pestrong.com
do it yourself pest weed control product supply and we serve metro atlanta pest and chemical lawn care, too.

grassman177
10-22-2011, 04:12 PM
i forgot about this thread.

i did use it, and liked it very much, except that is smells like fertmentation kinda like rotten beer.

inzane
05-09-2014, 09:45 AM
I know this is an old thread.. but i was told last week by someone that celsius doesn't need a surfactant. I've always used MSO at 1/4 oz per gallon with full rate celsius as a spot treatment when the temp's are in the 90's and I just get temporary "fading" of the turf. I've had good results with crabgrass although not as quick as drive on the crabgrass. Turf yellowing wasn't as bad with the celsius as it was with the drive + mso. Anyways, all week i've spot treated weeds with celsius without MSO.. so hopefully it will work. its been in the mid 80's.

Did riggle ever do the experiment?

Ric
05-09-2014, 11:51 AM
I know this is an old thread.. but i was told last week by someone that celsius doesn't need a surfactant. I've always used MSO at 1/4 oz per gallon with full rate celsius as a spot treatment when the temp's are in the 90's and I just get temporary "fading" of the turf. I've had good results with crabgrass although not as quick as drive on the crabgrass. Turf yellowing wasn't as bad with the celsius as it was with the drive + mso. Anyways, all week i've spot treated weeds with celsius without MSO.. so hopefully it will work. its been in the mid 80's.

Did riggle ever do the experiment?



128oz X .0025 (or 0.25%) = .32 or 1/3 of an ounce. 0.25% surfactant is the least amount of Recommended surfactant. your 1/4 oz is a little shy. However I understand you are thinking a Quart per 100 gallon. But a Gallon has 128 ounces.


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