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INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
08-09-2011, 09:35 PM
I am working on a fantastic water feature that flows around a custom 16 person granite hot tub. (wait till you see the photos!) The water feature water is separate from the hot tub water but is within 3 meters of the hot tub. As such I only want to use Pool & Spa rated fixtures in the water feature.

I know of the Hunza Pool Lite, which will work for the application, but I am wondering if any of you know of other 12 Volt, underwater fixtures that carry the necessary UL Pool & Spa ratings.

http://www.hunza.co.nz/product-index/pool.html


Thanks

David Gretzmier
08-10-2011, 01:18 AM
James. I spent some time digging and could not find too many UL 676 certified, and not any that have the canada sub classification- I believe "IFEV7" ?

not trying to beat a dead horse here, I know we disagree on this, but with the amount of years you have had to use underwater lights, are the ones you have used in the past failing, or are they just not UL 676 certified? I always tend to lean on the ones that have worked rather than finding new ones to gamble on that may carry a new listing. or is this an insurance thing?

I am not trying to get your hackles up, but I am trying to understand the thought process. my customers have told me very loud and clear they prefer me to use products I have experience with, rather than me trying a new fixture on them I have no experience with.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
08-10-2011, 01:37 AM
This is an application hurdle David. For the rest of the water feature I will be using standard underwater rated fixtures, but for the top portion where the water feature wraps around the hot tub I want to use pool and spa rated to be extra safe / cautious. The water feature water will be flowing all around the perimeter of the hot tub and as such it is not 3m or more away from the "human water". As such standard pond fixtures will not suffice. There is a bridge from the patio to the tub, but there is also a chance that people can and will come in limited contact with the waterfeature water. Better safe than sorry.

RLI Electric
08-10-2011, 07:42 AM
James, this is frustrating I am sure. If following the NEC you would reference 680.22 (B)(1). You then have to cross reference with 411.4(B) where it states locations not permitted for fixtures operating at 30 volts or less. I have spoken with my Authority Having Jurisdiction and he states that the NEC trumps UL's white book. I don't know how far up the chain you can fight city hall, but my climb ends with the final decision from the state electrical inspector.

Richie@
08-10-2011, 07:55 AM
Article worth reading.

http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF...cle410-501.pdf

Problem/Substantiation 4 - Distance of Lighting Systems from Pools, Spas,
Fountains, and Similar Locations - 411.4(B) requires low voltage lighting
systems to be located not less than 3.0 m (10 ft) from pools, spas, fountains,
and similar locations “unless permitted by Article 680.” 680.22(B), 680.40, and
680.43(B) identify installation characteristics for luminaires near or above a
permanent swimming pool, spa and hot tub. Parts I, III, and IV of Article 680
do not identify the minimum distance between a luminaire and a storable pool
or fountain. This results in low voltage lighting systems being required to be
installed not less than 3.0 m (10 ft) or more from a storable pool or fountain, as
specified in 411.4(B).
People want low voltage landscape lighting systems located less than 3.0 m
(10 ft) from a storable pool or fountain and there is no provision for locating
the lighting system as near as 1.5 m (5 ft) of a storable pool or fountain like
there is for permanent swimming pools and spas. Proposed 411.4(B) provides
for this and the following benefits.
a) Conveniently specifies installation characteristics for all of pools, spas,
fountains, and similar locations and does not require the reader to locate those
requirements that are in Article 680.
b) Provides installation characteristics for system parts for storable pools and
fountains and eliminates the need for the reader to attempt to locate in Article
680 the nonexistent requirements for installing nonimmersed luminaires near
storable pools and fountains.
c) Clarifies that GFCI protection applies to the power supply of the lighting
system and not the luminaries. This eliminates the possibility that a reader
of present 411.4(B) will conclude that a GFCI is required in the low voltage
isolated system circuit for the low voltage luminaires because Article 680
requires GFCI protection for luminaries.
d) Specifies installation distance, height, and GFCI protection that match
or are more stringent than specified in Article 680 for 120 volt luminaires for
permanent pools and spas.

Panel Meeting Action: Accept in Principle in Part
First, the panel accepts the changes shown in the proposal to the title of 411.4
and Section 411.4(A).
Secondly, the panel has modified 411.4(B) to read as follows:
(B) Pools, Spas, Fountains, and Similar Locations.
Lighting systems shall be installed a minimum of 3 m (10 ft) horizontally from
the nearest edge of the water, unless permitted by Article 680.
Panel Statement: Proposed text of 411.4(B) was not accepted because the
proposed requirements are in conflict with the requirements of 680.22(b). The
panel does not agree that the proposed language is more strintgent, when in
fact it is less......

http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_code_rules_lowvoltage/index.html

Swimming pool lighting

Sec. 411-4(2) defers to Art. 680 on the use of this lighting within 10 ft of a pool, spa, or fountain. This turns out to be quite complicated. Sec. 680-6(b)(1) generally allows fixtures to be as near as 5 ft to a pool (but no closer unless at least 12 ft above the water level). However, there are additional requirements that apply to fixtures closer than 10 ft. Both Sec. 680-6(b)(2) for lighting in the 5-10 ft zone, and the two exceptions to Sec. 680-6(b)(1) that allow closer distances for existing lighting and for indoor pools 7 1/2 ft or more above the water level require GFCI protection for such fixtures.

As noted in Fig. 2, GFCI devices as presently listed won't operate on a circuit with two ungrounded conductors. Therefore, these lighting systems are excluded between the 5-ft to the 10-ft radius around a pool unless the fixtures are rigidly attached to a structure at a point at least 5 ft above the maximum water level. They cannot be run at all, even on an existing structure, closer than 5 ft from the pool.

Nevertheless, we do see these lights used closer to swimming pools. These lights aren't installed under the provisions of Art. 411. This type of lighting operates on Class 2 power-limited circuits evaluated for wet-contact applications. Therefore, you install this type of lighting using listed Class 2 power supplies that typically don't exceed 75VA.

Landscape lighting

Another application of limited-energy lighting is in the path and accent lighting commonly used outdoors, as well as indoors in shopping malls, hotel atriums, and similar locations. These systems are listed to another standard entirely (UL 1838, Low Voltage Landscape Lighting Systems), and there are no plans to convert these systems over to the new UL 2108 standard. Because wet contact could be involved, these systems are limited to 15V, and UL already imposes the same 25A limitation as in the new Sec. 411-2. The output of one of these power supplies must never be connected in series or in parallel, and the maximum number and ratings of lighting units must never exceed the quantity specified in the listing and in the accompanying product directions.

The other issue with these systems is the location of the power supply. Installers need to be aware of the restrictions that come with various markings on these power supplies. For example, the "Outdoor Use Only" power unit cannot be used indoors. Although this seems obvious, we are used to assuming that if something can be used outdoors, it surely must be usable indoors. In this product category, only a power unit marked "Indoor Use Only" or "Indoor/Outdoor Use" (the other two possibilities) can be used indoors.

The power supplies will be arranged for a Chapter 3 wiring method connection, except outdoor units may be arranged for a cord- and plug-connection. In this case, the receptacle must be arranged to be weatherproof with the cord and plug connected, in accordance with Sec. 410-57(b).

These landscape lighting systems may also be used to supply submersible fixtures in fountains. In these cases, the transformer will have an isolated secondary to comply with Sec. 680-5(a), as required in Sec. 680-51(a) Ex. of the NEC. The lighting system will be marked "For Use With Submersible Fixtures Or Submersible Pumps." Be careful here! This product category is only for decorative fountains not intended for swimming or wading.

Note that underwater lighting fixtures intended for use in swimming pools are listed in a different category entirely. These fixtures, even if below 15V, must meet additional requirements. As in the case of Art. 411 systems, this wiring will originate at an isolating transformer. The secondary conductors from this transformer must never enter raceways or other enclosures with other conductors, however, in accordance with Sec. 680-5(c). GFCI protection is not required for these systems.

In general, however, these systems will be wired in the same way and using the same wiring methods as 120V lighting in the same environment. About the only other difference is that a potted, flush deck box can be used [Sec. 680-21(a)(4) Ex.], instead of the elevated swimming pool junction box required at line voltage. In any case, you must use a fixture listed as one of the forms of "Underwater Lighting Fixture For Swimming Pool." UL reserves the term "submersible" for underwater use in fountains, etc, not swimming pools and spas.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
08-10-2011, 08:09 AM
Thanks guys, now I am not sure as to what I can or cannot do, and in the case of the former what I can or cannot use to do it with!

Richie@
08-10-2011, 08:09 AM
James, this is frustrating I am sure. If following the NEC you would reference 680.22 (B)(1). You then have to cross reference with 411.4(B) where it states locations not permitted for fixtures operating at 30 volts or less. I have spoken with my Authority Having Jurisdiction and he states that the NEC trumps UL's white book. I don't know how far up the chain you can fight city hall, but my climb ends with the final decision from the state electrical inspector.

Here is another article.

Another frequent violation occurs around swimming pools, spas, fountains and similar areas. NEC 411.4(2) does not permit low-voltage lighting systems within 10 feet of these areas, unless permitted by Article 680. Section 680.22(B) covers area lighting around a pool. Any luminaire installed within 5 feet horizontally of the pool edge must be located at least 12 feet above the maximum water level of the pool. There are many existing low-voltage lighting installations installed after the pool installation inspection has occurred where the luminaires are installed within 3 to 5 feet of the water’s edge at or near ground level, which clearly is a violation.
Section 680.22(B)(4) permits luminaires to be installed within 5 to 10 feet horizontally of the pool’s edge only where a ground-fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) protects the luminaires. Since low-voltage landscape luminaires are supplied by a low-voltage power supply, such as a transformer, providing GFCI protection on the primary side of an isolation transformer will not provide GFCI protection on the secondary side. GFCI devices will not operate at the 15-volts or less supplied by the secondary of the power supply. This leaves only two options: one is to locate all low-voltage landscape lighting at least 10 feet from the pool or fountain edge; or, two, to use a special power supply.
There are low-voltage lighting power units that are marked “For Use with Submersible Fixtures or Submersible Pumps.” In this case, a special transformer is used that complies with the requirements in 680.23 for underwater luminaires installed below the normal water level of the pool. This transformer is specifically listed for this use and is an isolated winding type transformer with an ungrounded secondary similar to the low-voltage landscape lighting transformer, as required by 411.5(B). The low-voltage pool lighting transformer has one additional feature in its design. It has a grounded metal barrier or shield between the primary and the secondary. This metal barrier or shield prevents a direct internal short between the primary and the secondary of the transformer. If a short does occur on the primary side, it will short to the metal shield and the primary overcurrent protective device will operate. If a short develops on the secondary side to the shield, the secondary overcurrent protective device, if provided, will operate. If there isn’t a secondary overcurrent protective device and the primary is providing protection through the transformer, the primary device should operate.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
08-10-2011, 08:18 AM
Thanks. I knew about the faraday shields inside the transformers and have accounted for using such now to see about the fixtures and their locations. The fixtures near the hot tub will be submerged beneath 1.5' of water feature water, and not just sitting in the ground outside of the hot tub as a path light fixture may be. You have to cross a granite slab bridge to get from "shore" to the hot tub and then there is a "moat" surrounding the tub that will be moving 600 GPM of water feature water. It is quite the unique piece...

Time to talk with the electrical inspector I suppose.

RLI Electric
08-10-2011, 08:24 AM
Gotta love Code. Richie, thanks for posting this and the links. That is awesome. In my state we are still on the 2005 Code so I don't know if any of the exceptions have come into being. I will be rereading this about a dozen times to make sure the wording is absorbed. It is real funny how all this ends up with the interpretation of the Authority Having Jurisdiction. They are the same one that told me it IS OK to have an OUTDOOR ONLY transformer used inside. I argued with the lighting store and brought it to the state and they said the store was right. "If it is ok for outdoor, it is ok for indoor." They supply a 150 watt transformer from a company that begins with K all the time for track lighting too. Fortunately, I don't recommend that lighting store to my clients.
Richie, am I correct in my interpretation that the exception to 411.4(B) has been shot down?

Richie@
08-10-2011, 08:24 AM
I would draw up a small Lighting layout plan on what it is you want to do an also have the electrical Inspector visit the site if possible.

Better safe than sorry.

Richie@
08-10-2011, 08:30 AM
Gotta love Code. Richie, thanks for posting this and the links. That is awesome. In my state we are still on the 2005 Code so I don't know if any of the exceptions have come into being. I will be rereading this about a dozen times to make sure the wording is absorbed. It is real funny how all this ends up with the interpretation of the Authority Having Jurisdiction. They are the same one that told me it IS OK to have an OUTDOOR ONLY transformer used inside. I argued with the lighting store and brought it to the state and they said the store was right. "If it is ok for outdoor, it is ok for indoor." They supply a 150 watt transformer from a company that begins with K all the time for track lighting too. Fortunately, I don't recommend that lighting store to my clients.
Richie, am I correct in my interpretation that the exception to 411.4(B) has been shot down?

Bob,

What we have here in Va is called Virginia state wide code that ( believe it or not ) allows us to do some things differently than the NEC

Will look at that 411.4 b

Richie@
08-10-2011, 08:38 AM
Gotta love Code. Richie, thanks for posting this and the links. That is awesome. In my state we are still on the 2005 Code so I don't know if any of the exceptions have come into being. I will be rereading this about a dozen times to make sure the wording is absorbed. It is real funny how all this ends up with the interpretation of the Authority Having Jurisdiction. They are the same one that told me it IS OK to have an OUTDOOR ONLY transformer used inside. I argued with the lighting store and brought it to the state and they said the store was right. "If it is ok for outdoor, it is ok for indoor." They supply a 150 watt transformer from a company that begins with K all the time for track lighting too. Fortunately, I don't recommend that lighting store to my clients.
Richie, am I correct in my interpretation that the exception to 411.4(B) has been shot down?

Bob ,

Another good one to read.

http://www.iaei.org/magazine/2004/11/low-voltage-lighting-systems-operating-at-30-volts-or-less/

Richie@
08-10-2011, 09:02 AM
This is an application hurdle David. For the rest of the water feature I will be using standard underwater rated fixtures, but for the top portion where the water feature wraps around the hot tub I want to use pool and spa rated to be extra safe / cautious. The water feature water will be flowing all around the perimeter of the hot tub and as such it is not 3m or more away from the "human water". As such standard pond fixtures will not suffice. There is a bridge from the patio to the tub, but there is also a chance that people can and will come in limited contact with the waterfeature water. Better safe than sorry.

James,

This site may help you find what your looking for , also list many Lighting suppliers.

http://www.swimmingpoolsetc.com/pool-fiber-optics.htm

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
08-10-2011, 12:52 PM
Well I have learned a few things today. Here in Canada any water feature that is over 1.5m in dimension must be considered as habitable and thus you must use both Pool & Spa transformers and fixtures. It is doable but now to find fixture options.

The Hunza Pool Lite quote came in at an insane at an unbelievably high NET cost and I am not sure I can sell it as I need 12 units.

I do not think that fiberoptics are viable for this project give the scale, depth and volume of water that I am trying to illuminate (600 Gallons per minute)

So back to the original question: Do you know of any 12 volt, pool & spa rated fixtures? I am open to any ideas on this one.

Thanks.

Richie@
08-10-2011, 01:18 PM
Well I have learned a few things today. Here in Canada any water feature that is over 1.5m in dimension must be considered as habitable and thus you must use both Pool & Spa transformers and fixtures. It is doable but now to find fixture options.

The Hunza Pool Lite quote came in at an insane at an unbelievably high NET cost and I am not sure I can sell it as I need 12 units.

I do not think that fiberoptics are viable for this project give the scale, depth and volume of water that I am trying to illuminate (600 Gallons per minute)

So back to the original question: Do you know of any 12 volt, pool & spa rated fixtures? I am open to any ideas on this one.

Thanks.


Here are some links that might help.

http://www.swimmingpoolsetc.com/pool-fiber-optics.htm

http://www.landlights.net/Underwater-Fixtures_c_11.html

http://www.bronzelite.com/underwater/5000rgs.html

http://www.inyopools.com/lights_inground.aspx

The Savi Note LED lights are pretty nice from inyopools.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
08-10-2011, 02:18 PM
Thanks for those links Richie... they led me to two options that may well just work out fine. I appreciate the help and owe you a couple of libations at the very least.

Regards.

Richie@
08-10-2011, 02:24 PM
Bob ,

Another good one to read.

http://www.iaei.org/magazine/2004/11/low-voltage-lighting-systems-operating-at-30-volts-or-less/


Bob,

I can top that one.

NEC article 680.25 a. b. clearly says feeders for Pool sub Panels or Control Panels must be in conduit an 4 Insulated conductors from main service to Sub Panel.

Well some 70 miles west from here the Inspectors aloud 4 conductor AL SER cable as the service to a Pool sub Panel which was Installed by another electrician in which we will not connect to the Pool sub Panel , if someone else wants to connect it have at it but I won't.

Richie

Richie@
08-10-2011, 02:27 PM
Thanks for those links Richie... they led me to two options that may well just work out fine. I appreciate the help and owe you a couple of libations at the very least.

Regards.

James,

I can help with NEC code Issues related to Pools-Spas-Saunas-Fountains, we go through it all the time with Inspectors.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
08-10-2011, 02:31 PM
Thanks... apparently there are some significant differences between the NEC and the CEC.

Question, using a 12Volt P&S rated fixture, using SJOW lead wire and SJOW branch circuit wire, would it be acceptable to make inline connections using a CSA device like the ACE connector or must all connections be made inside a "waterproof" junction box? And can that junction box, if necessary be submerged or must it be out of the water feature water?

Thanks

Richie@
08-10-2011, 02:42 PM
Thanks... apparently there are some significant differences between the NEC and the CEC.

Question, using a 12Volt P&S rated fixture, using SJOW lead wire and SJOW branch circuit wire, would it be acceptable to make inline connections using a CSA device like the ACE connector or must all connections be made inside a "waterproof" junction box? And can that junction box, if necessary be submerged or must it be out of the water feature water?

Thanks

Connections can be made within an approved brass - threaded entry box under water an filled with approved epoxy compound , wire nut your connections an rubber tape it before you mix an poor in the epoxy,and of course leave the cord to the fixture long enough to remove for serving the fixture.

Richie@
08-10-2011, 02:47 PM
This link has the Brass boxes an accessories.

http://www.pfpros.com/underwater-junction-box.shtml

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
08-10-2011, 02:49 PM
Sounds messy! It's funny because the technique you describe above would have the potential for a higher failure rate than a well done, in-line, waterproof, direct burial connection... but so few 120V guys know about what we in the LV world have available they will continue to demand, complex, leaky, expensive, messy junction boxes be used. I think I will just run a separate wire to each fixture and then make my connections outside of the water feature. Problem solved.

Richie@
08-10-2011, 02:53 PM
I have connected many - many cords in those boxes with wire nut connections an rubber tape with the epoxy an yet to have had one fail.

What ever works best for you.

emby
08-10-2011, 04:48 PM
James,

If applicable to your installation. When constructing the water feature coridinate with the contractor to install PVC conduit in the walls with brass deck boxes mounted flush with the coping or cap stone around the water feature. There will be two pipes going into this brass box, one going into the bottom of the water feature and the other stubbing out wherever your low voltage transformer is. Use the SJOOW wire supplied with the fixture and make connections in the brass deck box. Fill the box with wax to seal after all connections have been made.
Order your fixtures when found, with the appropriate length for aiming and servicing within the water feature.
Call me if you would like to further this conversation as I have the Canadian Electrical code on my computer for reference.
I just finished going through this on one of my projects except for the special rated fixtures.

Ken

RLI Electric
08-10-2011, 08:16 PM
Richie, here is something funny. Friday I was in the required refresher course electricians have to do every year in CT. The instructor (who is a awesome inspector and exceptionally code savvy) was saying that if someone wanted to use loopholes, they can, and still remain legal. Pull a permit for a subpanel. Perfectly acceptable to run SER to it. Then after that permit is approved, pull another permit for pool and spa equipment. Code compliant all the way, just have to know the game. Pool equipment run off of a subpanel that is existing is fine. Just thought it was funny that this is raised less than a week after hearing this.

Richie@
08-10-2011, 08:24 PM
Richie, here is something funny. Friday I was in the required refresher course electricians have to do every year in CT. The instructor (who is a awesome inspector and exceptionally code savvy) was saying that if someone wanted to use loopholes, they can, and still remain legal. Pull a permit for a subpanel. Perfectly acceptable to run SER to it. Then after that permit is approved, pull another permit for pool and spa equipment. Code compliant all the way, just have to know the game. Pool equipment run off of a subpanel that is existing is fine. Just thought it was funny that this is raised less than a week after hearing this.

Yes I know all about the loop holes an I use them where ever possible, but this was a new feeder for a Pool sub Panel , totally wrong.

I guess one could set a main Disko near the sub Panel then feed it from that but still not code compliant.

We have to take the refresher course every two years what a PITA.

LLC RI
08-11-2011, 11:23 AM
James... have you looked into Fiber Optics??.. that way there is no electricity. You can locate the light box more than 10 ft. away, build something to conceal it if there isn't a place you can use... and use the focused end emitters for your light points. Just a thought .. then you avoid all the concern.

good luck.. and post pics of this moat!

George

LLC RI
08-11-2011, 11:27 AM
James... another thought came to mind... can you use a system that is 12 volts only- ie - a 12 volt DC system such as a solar panel, charge controller, deep cell batteries and LED light sources from Illumicare Group ;-)... that way.. there is no voltage higher than 30 volts anywhere in the system of underwater lighting. Would that work?

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
08-11-2011, 06:37 PM
Thanks George but there is not a fiber system that would give me the amount of light I would need at a reasonable cost. I solved the issue with a dozen fixtures from a Pool light manufacturer.

The solar concept is novel, but not very cost effective or practical in this application.

Kind regards

Richie@
08-12-2011, 06:01 PM
Thanks George but there is not a fiber system that would give me the amount of light I would need at a reasonable cost. I solved the issue with a dozen fixtures from a Pool light manufacturer.

The solar concept is novel, but not very cost effective or practical in this application.

Kind regards

Which lighting manufacture did you use.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
08-12-2011, 06:09 PM
Pentair Aqualight.

Richie@
08-12-2011, 06:11 PM
Pentair has great products, I think you will like them.

Richie@
08-13-2011, 07:49 AM
With literally thousands of fixtures to look at over the net for a specific type job it can be very over whelming at times for the customer an the contractor, do most of you feel the same.

Richie

Richie@
09-24-2011, 09:50 AM
Hi James,

I have been curious on how this project is coming along , I hope it's going well.

Richie

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-25-2011, 11:16 AM
Ritchie. It took some time to procure all of the materials. We are starting the installation on Monday.

Richie@
09-25-2011, 01:03 PM
Great, keep us updated as job progresses, I am anxious to see the finished project.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-26-2011, 12:50 AM
I will let you know how it goes but you will have to wait some time to 'see' the finished project. This is just one zone of a very large system that is evolving. We have been on site for a year now and expect that it will be another year to two years before the entire system is finished. There are still three more structures to be built on the site and the landscape needs to mature and fill in before I will take the time to shoot photos. Also, I intend to enter this project in a number of competitions, some of which do not allow you to publish the images before submitting them for review.

ELumin8
10-02-2011, 10:05 PM
James, there is a company in Richmond Hill, Ontario called Pem fountain co. These guys are very intelligent when it comes to application and cec/nec.

I have done business with them for years and it may be worth considering on your next water/lighting application.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
07-11-2013, 09:02 AM
All I can say is that there is no black and white, only grey when it comes to this topic. Check with your local authorities and follow their directions and instructions to the letter.

stebs
07-12-2013, 12:42 AM
All I can say is that there is no black and white, only grey when it comes to this topic. Check with your local authorities and follow their directions and instructions to the letter.

Slow day at the office?? the last post was almost 2 years ago... :laugh:

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
07-12-2013, 07:12 AM
No, there was a post before mine that bumped the thread up to the top. I was responding to it. It has since been removed for some reason.