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ron mexico75
08-12-2011, 12:24 PM
Since the beloved MSMA is no more, what have you found to be really effective at killing grassy weeds as well as broadleaf weeds?. Q4 appears to have very limited selection as far as grassy weeds are concerned. Cannot reseed until 4 weeks after using Q4 either. It would need to be put down within the next week or 2 around here in order to overseed 2nd to 3rd week in September.

Used to use Trimec Plus and that stuff was awesome but it is obviously no longer sold. Iv'e looked at Drive too but it's listing of broadleaves isn't very long and it does list 9 grasses as being controlled.

Just wondering what would be best to use as a postemergent spot treatment in place of MSMA.

ron mexico75
08-12-2011, 01:30 PM
Anyone on today?

greendoctor
08-12-2011, 01:35 PM
Sure. I would like to know what kind of turf you are attempting to control weeds in. What may be used on warm season turf might smoke cool season turf and visa versa.

ron mexico75
08-12-2011, 01:42 PM
sorry, it would be a tall fescue. Im in zone 7. I treated with barricade in mid March, followed up with dimension toward the end of May. The lawn isn't bad but does have some clumps of a weedy grass and some broadleaf weeds. Nothing that I couldn't hit while walking around and spot spraying.

ron mexico75
08-12-2011, 01:44 PM
Im leaning towards the Q4 as it's only $40 for a quart, $115 for a gallon. I figure maybe get the quart to try it. The Trimec-plus was awesome stuff but had MSMA and as you know is no longer sold.

greendoctor
08-12-2011, 01:47 PM
Q4 is your best bet. Personally, I was never impressed with Trimec Plus. Too much burn of the lawn and not enough root kill of weeds. I am in zone 11, all warm season grasses maintained at golf fairway height. I

ron mexico75
08-12-2011, 01:51 PM
Q4 is your best bet. Personally, I was never impressed with Trimec Plus. Too much burn of the lawn and not enough root kill of weeds. I am in zone 11, all warm season grasses maintained at golf fairway height. I

Yeah you're right about the burn to desireable turf with the MSMA. But that stuff worked. I would hate to buy something, spray it and have not work.

lilmarvin4064
08-12-2011, 02:29 PM
you might want to try Tenacity maybe combined with something else. I have a friend who has been using it as is having great results on crabgrass and nutsedge, he says it's working better than quinclorac and a little better than Solitare in July.

I'll be experimenting with my "ornacityflon" (fluazifop,mesotrione,triclopyr ester) mix very soon, to knock down bermuda, nimblewill, nutsedge, crabgrass, goosegrass, oxalis, etc. I hope it works well. I'll let you know.

Anyone else experimenting with Tenacity mixes?

RigglePLC
08-12-2011, 10:20 PM
Has anybody invented a dual tank backpack sprayer? Spray Drive XLR8 for crabgrass with the left hand and Speedzone for broadleaves with the right.

jasontimm
08-13-2011, 10:29 AM
You can mix drive with a 3-way and get very good results.

vencops
08-13-2011, 12:41 PM
You can mix drive with a 3-way and get very good results.

That sounds like an expensive broadleaf mix.

jasontimm
08-13-2011, 04:09 PM
That sounds like an expensive broadleaf mix.

Costs less then Q4... for me anyways.

ron mexico75
08-13-2011, 06:15 PM
Costs less then Q4... for me anyways.

Cheaper then the gal. of Q4 right? If I'm just buying this quart for $40 to spot treat it might be more beneficial financially right? Broadcast would be different. I am trying to get rid of spots of broadleafs and weedy grass so when I over seed and fert. in September it will look good rather then anticipating the first frost to knock these out. That usually doesn't occur to the 2nd sometimes 3rd week in November here.

With that Q4 you can overseed in 4 weeks which would be ideal for me here...2nd week in Sept.

Maybe I'll give it a shot and hope it knocks out these areas of unwanted's.

ron mexico75
08-15-2011, 08:39 AM
Well I'm going to apply the Q4 tomorrow. I told this person to run their irrigation 2 times a day for 3 days before I come out and spray. To my understanding, the product works much better if it's not real dry.

I read that with the original Q4 some guys on here said mix it at 4oz /gal to get real good results even though the label said 3oz/gal.

With the new Q4 Plus, I see the Qinclorac is a little higher percentage then the old. Would you still mix a little higher then recommended or stick to what the label says? I don't want to have to go back and respray. I say that because you can't seed for 4 weeks after spraying this and as it stands now, that would be 2nd week in September.

RigglePLC
08-15-2011, 11:22 AM
The label is always right...OR...I am doing some experiments to see how long after applying weed control, you have to wait to sow grass seed. Here untreated control is doing best; at maximum the untreated new seedlings are about one-inch tall at 6 days after planting. HOWEVER, I have some sprouting where the herbicide was used 5 days before sowing grass seed. Stay tuned.

grassman177
08-15-2011, 01:05 PM
i love q4, but it does not cover all the grasses. i need something to kill dallisgrass and johnsongrass for the future. i have relied on msma for that.

quinclorac does a great job for me on crab, foxtail and a few others, but i dont know what else to use starting next season for the grasses mentioned above. any suggestions on that one.....cool season turf

maelawncare
08-16-2011, 06:09 AM
i love q4, but it does not cover all the grasses. i need something to kill dallisgrass and johnsongrass for the future. i have relied on msma for that.

quinclorac does a great job for me on crab, foxtail and a few others, but i dont know what else to use starting next season for the grasses mentioned above. any suggestions on that one.....cool season turf

I to was thinking the same thing. Only have 1 gal of MSMA left and saving it for spot spraying dallisgrass.

Btw, acclaim works pretty good on johnsongrass. It takes two apps but smoked it. Havent seen any come back in a month so far, time will tell though.

ron mexico75
08-16-2011, 08:31 AM
Supposedly this Q4 Plus is being marketed as "the replacement for MSMA" I haven't tried it yet so I don't know. From whats been posted here it doesn't seem so.

grassman177
08-16-2011, 11:55 AM
not really, it will get everything a three way and drive will, but no more. still q4 is a great blend. spraying it today in fact, but have some rain so on a long lunch right now.

ron mexico75
08-16-2011, 12:25 PM
not really, it will get everything a three way and drive will, but no more. still q4 is a great blend. spraying it today in fact, but have some rain so on a long lunch right now.

Well, I'll post my results. Im going to spray this afternoon. I'll take some close up pics of the weeds and grassy weeds Im spraying too.

Trying to knock that crap out of there before I overseed and aerate in About 4 weeks.

grassman177
08-16-2011, 10:35 PM
that is the exact plan i have.

sprayed some today and within 10 minutes there was a good downpour. i am curious to see what dies and what does not, and if the mso i used with it made any dif at all.

ron mexico75
08-17-2011, 08:29 AM
that is the exact plan i have.

sprayed some today and within 10 minutes there was a good downpour. i am curious to see what dies and what does not, and if the mso i used with it made any dif at all.

Well I forgot to take pics:hammerhead:

Anyways looked like crab, some green foxtail, some spurge and something else with little while flowers.......couple clumps of goosegrass, buttonweed maybe.

I know the label says for best results don't irrigate for 24 hours. I forgot to tell the homeowner that and I think the irrigation came on this morning. That would be about 12 hours or so after I sprayed. You think that's ok?

grassman177
08-17-2011, 01:10 PM
if it was not too stressed, then yes, but my less than 10 minutes might not work so good!! curious to see what happens as i have never come into this situation. it was a real pop up outta nowhere kind of shower

ron mexico75
08-17-2011, 02:00 PM
if it was not too stressed, then yes, but my less than 10 minutes might not work so good!! curious to see what happens as i have never come into this situation. it was a real pop up outta nowhere kind of shower

Yeah that sucks for you if in fact that pop up shower just washed it away. I can't find any info on the label as to when it's "rain proof". It just says "for best results" don't irriagte withhin 24 hours.

RigglePLC
08-17-2011, 06:11 PM
Some people think a spreader or spreader sticker will help in a rain-to-soon situation.
Anybody agree? Disagree?

See my weed control followed by watering tests from about April. 15 minutes is usually enough.

GreenTechllc
08-17-2011, 07:22 PM
Yeah you're right about the burn to desireable turf with the MSMA. But that stuff worked. I would hate to buy something, spray it and have not work.

I agree, msma is not a good choice, in fact is a terrible one, but , I used some that I had from last year on new lawns I picked up that were 70 to 100 % weeds and it worked great.(Don't forget to tell your customer is gonna look like sheeeet until you overseed) and you'll be alright.... At the same time , If you have more good grass than bad grass, I'd definitely use a selective herbicide in order to save some of the good standing lawn. Drive(quinclorac) 2,4 D , most are labeled for residential use. Always follow the label.

GreenTechllc
08-17-2011, 07:31 PM
Yeah that sucks for you if in fact that pop up shower just washed it away. I can't find any info on the label as to when it's "rain proof". It just says "for best results" don't irriagte withhin 24 hours.

Some chemicals like Drivexlr8 have root activity. It means that if you sprayed and a lot of rain came thru, a lot of your chemical will wash away and it will not be enough root activity to sustain a good kill,( usually a spot spray or similar will be necessary).

grassman177
08-17-2011, 10:38 PM
this was blanket of q4 at full rate and full rate of mso. i already warned the customer.

thing is, if i have to blanket again, i cant due to limitations of the label. i have already blanketed this lawn once this year. it is a terrible lawn by the way, i took it on in may, and am getting it ready for seeding this fall.

thoughts?

ron mexico75
08-18-2011, 08:20 AM
So this is my first time using Q4. I sprayed around 5:00 on Tuesday. I usually cut this place around 4:30 on Thursdays. The label says wait 2 days to cut before or after applying. Would you wait 3 or 4 days or do you think 2 is enough and I should cut today?

ron mexico75
08-18-2011, 12:18 PM
Well I called PBI Gordon. The guy said waiting 2 days then cutting is fine and as long as you have at least 8 hours from spray time to rain or irrigation it should be fine. The label says 24 hours but he said as long as you get in a minimum of 8 it should be ok.

ron mexico75
08-19-2011, 10:31 AM
Well I don't want to "jump the gun", but I went to check on the yard that I sprayed. Holy crap! Highly VISIBLE signs of stress and death in all of the grassy weeds I sprayed. I'm talking 48 hours. I have never used Q4 so wasn't sure. None of the fescue seemed to be affected in anyway like whn MSMA was sprayed 2 years ago.

Im anxious to see what 2-4 more days will look like. Sorry to post for guys that have used this or already know the results but it made me excited. For those that haven't used I'll post these pics.

I mixed Q4 at 3.5 oz/gal (.5 ouces above label recommendation) and used 1/4oz /gal nonionic adjuvant.

ron mexico75
08-20-2011, 11:29 PM
anyone else have results like this in so short of time?

Davie Landscape
08-21-2011, 08:13 PM
Sprayed customer on Thursday around 1130. Used Q4 Plus @ 3.8 oz with 1/2 oz surfactant. Went by to check on them around 530 Friday afternoon with extreme stress on all grassy weeds as well as the classic twisting and burning of broadleafs. Very satisfied. Lawn also had a 5 hour soak time before a 15 minute shower rolled through. Given the small rain shower im very pleased thus far with the results. FYI, this was my first use of Q4 since i ran out of MSMA.

ron mexico75
08-22-2011, 09:26 AM
Sprayed customer on Thursday around 1130. Used Q4 Plus @ 3.8 oz with 1/2 oz surfactant. Went by to check on them around 530 Friday afternoon with extreme stress on all grassy weeds as well as the classic twisting and burning of broadleafs. Very satisfied. Lawn also had a 5 hour soak time before a 15 minute shower rolled through. Given the small rain shower im very pleased thus far with the results. FYI, this was my first use of Q4 since i ran out of MSMA.

Wow, good to hear! Sounds like even faster results then mine. I won't get a chance to see this yard again until Thursday which will make it 9 days since being sprayed. I assume all the weeds and grassy weeds will be toast.

From what you have said and from my own initial results (48 hours) I am impressed. Granted, I haven't seen the "final results" yet, but at this point I like what I see.

I also see that you mixed slightly stronger then the 3.0 label recommendation. I did that as well, .5 more just to be sure. Nobody else has comented on this so I assume there aren't many Q4 Plus users on this site. I knew it was fairly new but not that new. Oh well, I guess time will tell.

grassman177
08-22-2011, 12:09 PM
wouldnt mixing stronger than the max rate on the label be against the law? I dont that is for sure. most crabgrass i have sprayed is really hurt, but not dead. i will be seeing these again this week which will make 7-10 days after spraying them. i will be able to judge then, cuz i have used q4 since they brought it to market(when it was less % of quinclorac) and have been mostly satisfied. sometimes though, it seems like some crabgrass is resistant to it completely. i have sprayed it i know, and it is as green as can be but the plant next to it is smoked!?

ron mexico75
08-22-2011, 12:24 PM
wouldnt mixing stronger than the max rate on the label be against the law? I dont that is for sure. most crabgrass i have sprayed is really hurt, but not dead. i will be seeing these again this week which will make 7-10 days after spraying them. i will be able to judge then, cuz i have used q4 since they brought it to market(when it was less % of quinclorac) and have been mostly satisfied. sometimes though, it seems like some crabgrass is resistant to it completely. i have sprayed it i know, and it is as green as can be but the plant next to it is smoked!?

Yeah maybe, texting while drIving and playing your car stereo loud is against the law too. I don't know. What I do know is; I need these weedy grasses executed before I overseed and since there is a 4 week wait to seed I want to make sure these headaches DIE!!!

Post your pics when you go back oput there and I'll post mine too. Very interested to see what happens and if this can really be referred to as a replacement for MSMA. I sure hope so.

grassman177
08-22-2011, 02:30 PM
It it's not an equal replacement, but still good.msma has already torched all grassy weeds in the same areas.....i have been using both.

I will get pics this week.

What I need is something that will also get johnson and dallisgrasses as well as the others
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ron mexico75
08-22-2011, 02:41 PM
It it's not an equal replacement, but still good.msma has already torched all grassy weeds in the same areas.....i have been using both.

I will get pics this week.

What I need is something that will also get johnson and dallisgrasses as well as the others
Posted via Mobile Device

Still have MSMA do you? I have a tad left in some trimec Plus I bought about 2 years ago.

RigglePLC
08-22-2011, 04:58 PM
Read the label carefully, especially Table 4(Seeding and sprigging timetable). It looks to me that Drive can be used before seeding without restrictions on all grasses except seashore paspalum. No need to wait 4 weeks for seeding.
http://www.turfgrassinc.com/pdf/herbicide_solutions/DriveXLR8Label.pdf

Drive applied 15 days after seeding in my experiments caused no damage to newly sprouted grass.

Davie Landscape
08-22-2011, 04:59 PM
Ron: Going back out there Wednesday to check on everything. Ill get ya pics then. Ill be glad to get this headache yard under control. Im blessed there is no Dallis grass to contend with.

Grassman: I know its over label recommendations and I have never exceeded label rates until now. Ive heard and seen first hand that Q4 at label rates doesn't seem to do the job. So I heated it up in hopes this would do the job MSMA used to do well. Im 100% with you on the johnson/dallisgrass issue, had a lil conversation with my Agrium rep today about those exact problem weeds.

grassman177
08-22-2011, 06:31 PM
I could def see uping the dose for the old q4, but the new one has a full dose of quincloracunlike the old q4.

it also has more of ome of the other three herbicides, but I am not able to look right now.

,Oh and I still have 15 gal of msma, and 10 gal of trimec plus:)
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GreenTechllc
08-22-2011, 08:54 PM
I could def see uping the dose for the old q4, but the new one has a full dose of quincloracunlike the old q4.

it also has more of ome of the other three herbicides, but I am not able to look right now.

,Oh and I still have 15 gal of msma, and 10 gal of trimec plus:)
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__________________________________________________________

You can use the msma and trimec plus until 2013 as long as you have the old labels for residential use. I used the little bit I had this year on the yards that were 65-70% weeds or more so damage to desirable turf is less evident. Msma is really good stuff when you have a lot of weeds , but, I don't think I would ever use it again even if it was to became legal the use of it. Had my fare share of bad experiences with it, (specially with cool season grasses), because it has such a narrow window for its use.

vencops
08-22-2011, 09:07 PM
What's the general consensus on wait time to over-seed, if one were to spot-spray MSMA? I'm inclined to not fret it.

GreenTechllc
08-22-2011, 09:28 PM
What's the general consensus on wait time to over-seed, if one were to spot-spray MSMA? I'm inclined to not fret it.

________________________________________________________

Are you talking msma/ or Trimec plus? there's a diference on rate..

msma is usually 21 to 28 days depending on rain fall and target area( also see label and use). trimec plus is a bit shorter on 14 to 21 days. Most msma containing products are now 30 days because they're no longer use on residential. Funny :), I though it would be the opposite. It is best and recommended if you read the label carefully. Some people can easily be confused, (this is my opinion ofcourse), that newcomers in the landscape business can still be using msma just simply because they're are not informed,educated or whatever the situation may be, I would also like to blame the label in most cases because of how its written. I'm a Firm believer that the label should say ( NOT FOR RESIDENTIAL USE ).but thats not the case.

vencops
08-22-2011, 09:47 PM
I'm talking MSMA.

GreenTechllc
08-23-2011, 12:02 PM
I'm talking MSMA.

______________________________________________________________

Target 6 Plus(MSMA) (Not labeled for residential use)

ORNAMENTAL TURF GRASS
Target® 6 Plus can be used for selective control of bahiagrass, barnyardgrass, chickweed, smooth and large crabgrass,
dallisgrass, nutsedge, sandbur and wood sorrel with little or no injury to well-established, actively-growing turf grasses.
Mow turf grass to height of 1 to 11/2 inches before treatment. Mix 1 fluid ounce (2 tablespoons) of Target® 6 Plus in
1 to 2.5 gallons of water for application to an area of 1,000 square feet. Established bermudagrass and zoysiagrass,
mix 1 to 2 fluid ounces (2 to 4 tablespoons) of Target® 6 Plus in 1 to 2.5 gallons of water for application to an area of
1,000 square feet. Applications should be uniform and thorough to adequately wet all undesirable plants. Two or more
repeat treatments at 14 day intervals may be necessary. Make applications during warm weather when temperature
is between 80 and 90oF. DO NOT water turf for at least 24 hours after application. Turf grasses may be temporarily
discolored. Bermudagrass, bluegrasses and zoysiagrass have shown tolerance to properly applied Target® 6 Plus.
Injury may result if applied to bent grasses and fescues. DO NOT apply to St. Augustinegrass, carpetgrass, centipede
grass or to Dichondra.
DO NOT reseed until 2 weeks after last application. :nono:

FinerCutslawnCare
08-23-2011, 10:19 PM
you might want to try Tenacity maybe combined with something else. I have a friend who has been using it as is having great results on crabgrass and nutsedge, he says it's working better than quinclorac and a little better than Solitare in July.

I'll be experimenting with my "ornacityflon" (fluazifop,mesotrione,triclopyr ester) mix very soon, to knock down bermuda, nimblewill, nutsedge, crabgrass, goosegrass, oxalis, etc. I hope it works well. I'll let you know.

Anyone else experimenting with Tenacity mixes?

I believe that Solitare kills both grassy and broadleaf weeds, to where tenacity is just for grassy weeds. I could be wrong tho.

ron mexico75
08-26-2011, 09:28 AM
well I went back to the house where I sprayed the Q4 Plus 9 days ago. I thought I'd be happier but I wasn't. Good kill on the bradleaf weeds and crab grass. Not so much on the dallisgrass. Some were burnt others were starting to regrow. I'd say they need another app but then that's another 4 weeks to overseed according to the label. I'm kind of pissed because when you mix something to the label specs and add a surfactant you expect results.

I guess dallisgrass is one of those real tough ones. It just sucks that every timeyou spray Q4 you have to wait 4 weeks before seeding. Plus with this hurricane coming it wouldn't make sense to spray until next week.

Oh well, I guess the dallisgrass that's there will have to stay and hopefully die off with the first frost. I'm wondering if next years Pre M app of Barricade will prevent it from coming back.

Any thoughts?

R&S Lawn Care
08-26-2011, 04:03 PM
No, it will come back. Dallis is a perennial. Msma w/ mso, and Celsius w/ Revolver and mso, and Certainty w/ msma and mso. I've had good luck with these combos. Still takes mulitple apps.
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ron mexico75
08-26-2011, 07:21 PM
No, it will come back. Dallis is a perennial. Msma w/ mso, and Celsius w/ Revolver and mso, and Certainty w/ msma and mso. I've had good luck with these combos. Still takes mulitple apps.
Posted via Mobile Device

Yeah I hear you buddy. MSMA!!!!!!!!!! Now just tell me where I can buy some. That's why I was spraying Q4 Plus because that is considered it's "replacement" by some sellers.

grassman177
08-26-2011, 07:25 PM
well I went back to the house where I sprayed the Q4 Plus 9 days ago. I thought I'd be happier but I wasn't. Good kill on the bradleaf weeds and crab grass. Not so much on the dallisgrass. Some were burnt others were starting to regrow. I'd say they need another app but then that's another 4 weeks to overseed according to the label. I'm kind of pissed because when you mix something to the label specs and add a surfactant you expect results.

I guess dallisgrass is one of those real tough ones. It just sucks that every timeyou spray Q4 you have to wait 4 weeks before seeding. Plus with this hurricane coming it wouldn't make sense to spray until next week.

Oh well, I guess the dallisgrass that's there will have to stay and hopefully die off with the first frost. I'm wondering if next years Pre M app of Barricade will prevent it from coming back.

Any thoughts?
i have some, dallisgrass is not labeled so you are lucky to get some of it.

ron mexico75
08-26-2011, 07:30 PM
i have some, dallisgrass is not labeled so you are lucky to get some of it.

Yeah I didn't see it on the label but without the availability to buy MSMA I figured what else can I spray on it?

I just figured that with all the other grassy weeds listed it would work. I just don't understand how it can kill other grassy weeds and not dallis.......:confused:

fl-landscapes
08-26-2011, 07:34 PM
Yeah I didn't see it on the label but without the availability to buy MSMA I figured what else can I spray on it?

I just figured that with all the other grassy weeds listed it would work. I just don't understand how it can kill other grassy weeds and not dallis.......:confused:

here is an article of interest. http://a-c-s.confex.com/crops/2011srb/webprogram/Paper63473.html
Posted via Mobile Device

fl-landscapes
08-26-2011, 07:35 PM
Don't think that link took?
Posted via Mobile Device
Posted via Mobile Device

ron mexico75
08-26-2011, 07:40 PM
here is an article of interest. http://a-c-s.confex.com/crops/2011srb/webprogram/Paper63473.html
Posted via Mobile Device

Interesting, thanks for the link.

So should we just spot spray dallis with glyphosate!? ;)

then just overseed and repair each dead spot with soil and cover? It's so f'ing frustrating to be able to kill everything else besides dallis. Dallis is so obnoxious because it's so thick and clumpy. I hate it....I have nightmares about it.:laugh:

ron mexico75
08-26-2011, 07:41 PM
Don't think that link took?
Posted via Mobile Device
Posted via Mobile Device

I copied and pasted into a new window.

battbrad
08-27-2011, 12:10 PM
Looks ify, but might be worth a try for dg in tttf...
http://www.tennesseeturfgrassweeds.org/admin/Lists/Fact%20Sheets/Attachments/3/SP642.pdf
Note that the control options table lists the use of fluazifop by itself, while the text following the table lists a tank mix with fluazifop and mesotrione (tenacity).

Brad

grassman177
08-27-2011, 06:37 PM
gee, notice how all the options basically note the use of msma! we are screwed after i cant use what i have anymore(cant buy it anymore for resi, but my label has it).

quinclorac is good sometimes, seems easy on turf in comparison to msma, but def not as effective. hardly ever get crabgrass in one shot, which the whole two app thing sucks, who can afford to go back on all their properties in 2 weeks or whatever just to touch up these grassy weeds again, especially this close to fall?

i cant wait to get something like msma back that will get it often times in one shot, at least more often than quin.

RodneyK
08-27-2011, 08:58 PM
Tenacity controls some broadleaf as well as grasses plus you can apply at seeding.