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DanaMac
08-18-2011, 09:25 PM
No testing here for residential, and very limited testing anywhere else. Enforcement is weak as well. Since I am not a tester, I have a question.
I have a townhome complex that I have "maintained" the last 1.5 years, basically started up and shut down. They have a 2" RP, but both ball valves have been replaced at some point in time. Neither BV are factory original replacements, which could also fail a test. But the first BV does NOT have a testcock built in, nor is there any other bibb or drain prior to it. So my question is - does that qualify as a FAIL for a test? You cannot get a reading on the inlet side for pressure.

I did an assessment today and will be presenting it to the HOA board soon, but I also know they do not have funds to upgrade the system. Even the lawn guy is cutting every two weeks to save them some money. But I want to point out to the board that the guy that is inspecting is not doing his job and is stealing their money.

Some big issues I am bring up. Static at the #4 TC is 125 psi. Dynamic at the spray head on one zone with 32 heads, is still 84 psi. You get the picture, lots of misting. System has a master valve which I think was added due to leaking in the valve boxes. Broken heads, worn wiper seals, heads leaking at bottom of slopes and down the street due to no SAMs, older PGPs that are leaking out of the little hole on the top, heads under shrubs and behind trees, tree root choking off pipes, etc.

Wet_Boots
08-18-2011, 09:46 PM
Unless your laws include a "same brand" provision, I do not worry about the name on a ball valve. Manufacturers do go out of business.

DanaMac
08-18-2011, 09:48 PM
I can't remember if we do or not, but I know that can be a fail for some areas. My question is mainly about the TC being missing on the inlet side. I do believe that is a fail, correct? It has been tested each of the last two season I have been on site, and it keeps getting passed.

irritation
08-18-2011, 09:56 PM
TC #1 is not used for test procedures however alterations to the assembly is cause for failure to pass.

Wet_Boots
08-18-2011, 09:58 PM
I believe you can still test the check valves, if the upstream isolation valve doesn't leak. In other words, the protection of the check valves can still be verified.

mitchgo
08-18-2011, 10:35 PM
Technically in the rule books it's supposed to be the same brand ball valve and you are supposed to have the test **** port on sov #1

If I was testing it I personally wouldn't care but I would notate it down on the report. I mean you leave sov #1 in the on position when testing rp's anyways

get a prv on that system :)

ARGOS
08-18-2011, 11:15 PM
My question is mainly about the TC being missing on the inlet side. I do believe that is a fail, correct?

I'm sorry I would comment, but I don't think you are licensed and I don't want to give unsuspecting posters a wrong impression. Dana, I think it is time you stick to something you are trained for...

ArTurf
08-18-2011, 11:16 PM
The test **** (#1) on the ball valve does not come in to play for testing. No where on my testing procedures is it mentioned so I would pass it.

bcg
08-18-2011, 11:58 PM
Mitch and ArTurf are right, you'll only use testcock #1 if you've got a leaking shutoff #2 and need to put back pressure on the 2nd check but 99.999% of the time, you don't touch it. Only need 2, 3 and 4 to test an RP if the 2nd shutoff is working correctly. I'll fail an assembly if the rubbers, etc. aren't OEM (like that POS Febco kit that Sprinkler Warehouse sells) but ball valves aren't a reason to fail a device in my book.

The guy that's testing it should mention that there should be another testcock but I wouldn't fail an RP because it was missing either, unless I had a leaking #2 shutoff, in which case I'd make them replace both ball valves and correct the problem with shutoff #1.

mitchgo
08-19-2011, 01:11 AM
Mitch and ArTurf are right, you'll only use testcock #1 if you've got a leaking shutoff #2 and need to put back pressure on the 2nd check but 99.999% of the time, you don't touch it. Only need 2, 3 and 4 to test an RP if the 2nd shutoff is working correctly. I'll fail an assembly if the rubbers, etc. aren't OEM (like that POS Febco kit that Sprinkler Warehouse sells) but ball valves aren't a reason to fail a device in my book.

The guy that's testing it should mention that there should be another testcock but I wouldn't fail an RP because it was missing either, unless I had a leaking #2 shutoff, in which case I'd make them replace both ball valves and correct the problem with shutoff #1.


That's always been a huge issue with me

I mean we all know #1 is pointless. #1 gives a higher probability of having contamination in the line. They have it for testing purpose on a what 'if' scenario. Well what if #2 sov doesn't shut off, or for what ever scenario that I can't think about right now that needs #1.. Tell the effers to replace it or fix it!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yet... I can't have a curb stop relief valve in ground 18"-24" down with gravel prior to the back flow assembly ( Allowing water prior to the BFA to drain out) to prevent freezing.. What gives!

idiotic bureaucrats not living in the real world

mitchgo
08-19-2011, 01:18 AM
I'm sorry I would comment, but I don't think you are licensed and I don't want to give unsuspecting posters a wrong impression. Dana, I think it is time you stick to something you are trained for...

I disagree here.

He's asking a simple question which any certified backflow tester will know. He wasn't going to the customer and saying ' oh well you don't have a proper #1 sov so therefore I can't do anything with your system and i'm also shutting off your water until you fix it'.... ( like some of the nazi cities I work in do)

A region that doesn't enforce back flow testing .. What else can you do? Particularly when almost every job you deal with has a back flow assembly.

ARGOS
08-19-2011, 01:56 AM
I disagree here.

He's asking a simple question which any certified backflow tester will know. He wasn't going to the customer and saying ' oh well you don't have a proper #1 sov so therefore I can't do anything with your system and i'm also shutting off your water until you fix it'.... ( like some of the nazi cities I work in do)

A region that doesn't enforce back flow testing .. What else can you do? Particularly when almost every job you deal with has a back flow assembly.

I'm sorry. I was poking Dana. I guess I should have used an icon, but it would have ruined the bite. Dana LOVES my sarcasm. Let me retry:

"Hey Dana, you good for nothing bum. Why don't you get a real job like selling backpacks you bum.":laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

DanaMac
08-19-2011, 08:27 AM
Thanks for the answers guys, I'm glad I didn't cause any problems with the tester due to my lack of knowledge. That is why I asked.
I still have an issue with it though. The on-off is a curb stop valve, and I'd prefer a TC to break the vacuum when it is time to drain it back.

ARGOS - go take a long walk off a short pier buddy, you good for nuthin' california liberal hack! :) (see, the emoticon washes it all away. I knew A was messin' with me)

Mike Leary
08-19-2011, 04:14 PM
My views concerning non-licensed hacks even TOUCHING backflow assemblies are well known, so I won't comment. :hammerhead:

DanaMac
08-19-2011, 04:29 PM
My views concerning non-licensed hacks even TOUCHING backflow assemblies are well known, so I won't comment. :hammerhead:

Go lock yourself in the Twinkie......

irrig8r
08-19-2011, 04:31 PM
Sorry, but I think you're wrong there.

I used to be licensed for testing, then the only calls I got were for bigazz RPs at hospitals and such, and I didn't want to take the risks involved in servicing them.

Nobody enforces testing of residential backflow preventers of any kind around here.

So, today I ran across a 1-1/4" Febco 825 and was gonna use the downstream ball valve to shut the water off while I changed out three valves in the backyard. The handle was tight and the stem snapped right off. Wasn't going to wait for somebody to order me a Febco ball valve. Found a new brass Matco with the same overall dimensions and installed it instead.

Getting the water back on was more important than matching the damn brand. Sucker probably hadn't been shut off since it was installed in 1994.

Wet_Boots
08-19-2011, 04:40 PM
Why would you be obligated to service large backflow preventers that you test? (ignoring for the moment the obvious synergy)

mitchgo
08-19-2011, 11:36 PM
Sorry, but I think you're wrong there.

Getting the water back on was more important than matching the damn brand. Sucker probably hadn't been shut off since it was installed in 1994.

Like I said. Technically it's in the books but it's really not that big of a deal.

Wet_Boots
08-19-2011, 11:43 PM
Howzabout concentrating on the actual functioning of the backflow preventer?

Mike Leary
08-20-2011, 04:58 PM
If a tester is smart enough, a leaking ball valve can be detected. My feeling is if the ball valve(s) are heading south, then the rest of the assembly is, also. Another great reason to spec unions for easy retro-fit.