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adforester
08-20-2011, 03:27 PM
Hello,
So I have taken the NOFA organic land care course up here in MA. Northeastern organic land care. Anyway they really emphasize only using compost tea, never use roundup etc. Anyways,
heres the thing - one of my clients has a lawn that takes me 4 hours to mow, its a big lawn, last year it was a great lawn, i wasnt mowing or fertilizing. then this year i started mowing and someone started fertilizing using compost tea. And well the lawn looks like ^&*(!. I mean its completely overburdened by weeds, crabgrass, bermuda grass, its an awfull looking lawn now and im imbarrassed. Anyways, how do you all control weeds from taking over? Pre-emergents work well! ...but you dont use them???
how are they toxic?
So you only top dress?...how much does that cost?..and how do you apply it?
I just throw it with a shovel and hate it.
I mean a GREEN LAWN IS A HEALTHY LAWN--chemicals or not my friends
looks healthy probably because it is! the green industry is a scam...I got a degree in environmental studies and took a organic land care program, I keep exposing myself to alot of "organic" ideas but to tell you the truth I don't think any of the ideas are worthwhile.

HayBay
08-20-2011, 04:34 PM
I mean a GREEN LAWN IS A HEALTHY LAWN--chemicals or not my friends
looks healthy probably because it is! the green industry is a scam...

Thanks for posting that information.

I could have saved you the $500 or so for the NOFA exam and told you it was bogus.

If anyone wants to know how to have a beautiful lawn just read the Pesticide SubForum, the guys in there know their stuff.

When the golf superintendent at a Golf course like Marthas Vineyard (almost organic) says compost tea doesn't work, its hard to not listen.

You won't believe how many certified organic companies are losing their registration status when audited.

mdlwn1
08-20-2011, 04:49 PM
Compost teas work very well.......when they are needed. I spent 16 years doing lawn applications in an area with good soil......compost would only improve drought tolerance in heat and earlier greenup in spring...other than that...judging on a purely visual basis......almost no effect.

Smallaxe
08-20-2011, 09:09 PM
Apples and oranges type comparison, is what you are dealing with here... Compost/AACT does things for the soil that no synthetic can do...

Pesticide/herbicide/pre-m does what no other product can do...

Real thatch, i.e. a layer of living and dead roots and stems above the surface of the soil is not a healthy lawn...

Any hort student/practicioner should understand when a plant is in a healthy environment and when it is not... Bashing the organic earth worshippers is one thing... growing plants naturally is completely different, so it is good to understand the difference and produce a healthy lawn... :)

ICT Bill
08-21-2011, 12:19 PM
Hello,
So I have taken the NOFA organic land care course up here in MA. Northeastern organic land care. Anyway they really emphasize only using compost tea, never use roundup etc. Anyways,
heres the thing - one of my clients has a lawn that takes me 4 hours to mow, its a big lawn, last year it was a great lawn, i wasnt mowing or fertilizing. then this year i started mowing and someone started fertilizing using compost tea. And well the lawn looks like ^&*(!. I mean its completely overburdened by weeds, crabgrass, bermuda grass, its an awfull looking lawn now and im imbarrassed. Anyways, how do you all control weeds from taking over? Pre-emergents work well! ...but you dont use them???
how are they toxic?
So you only top dress?...how much does that cost?..and how do you apply it?
I just throw it with a shovel and hate it.
I mean a GREEN LAWN IS A HEALTHY LAWN--chemicals or not my friends
looks healthy probably because it is! the green industry is a scam...I got a degree in environmental studies and took a organic land care program, I keep exposing myself to alot of "organic" ideas but to tell you the truth I don't think any of the ideas are worthwhile.

a couple of things
where are you located and what type of turf is generally used where you are

what are the soils like generally in your area? sandy, heavy clay

how many applications of compost tea have been done and how often

has the site been on a chemical diet for many years or just left to be what chip osbourne calls "organic by default"

the last 2 summers in the mid atlantic and NE have been difficult at best on both the organic and chemically treated lawns, when you have several days of 100+ heat in May it tends to smoke cool season grasses for the year and promote heat loving plants like bermuda and CG

One of the sponsors on here compostwerks has several models of top dressers

NattyLawn
08-21-2011, 01:43 PM
There's no silver bullet to organics. If someone touts one method of getting things done over others, I would take what they say with a grain of salt. It's your job as a company to research and experiment with what works best for your customers and properties. It also helps if customers will help out too, because they're paying you and helping ouit at the same time. While I do think compost tea is a great tool, I wouldn't expect it to be my only weapon on turf. Meals, chicken manure, seaweed, humic acid, and worm castings are just a few other tools I use as well. I want to add diversity while also giving the customer a green, healthy lawn.
It's just sad that some on this board haven't taken the time to try and understand organics and soils but have the time to bash them. Organics aren't for dummies or the stubborn. If you were forced into organics by the government or whomever, maybe it's time you moved or need to take up a new profession.

HayBay
08-21-2011, 06:36 PM
My new profession is to dispute the bull Sh*t being fed. Its just as rewarding as watching weeds grow.

Nofa, OMRI, Chip Osborne, Paul Tukey

I know for a fact when your organic program is not working your pulling out the pesticides. Oh it was only one time right.

I hope they ban it in your neck of the woods, you will have a change of heart.

By the way look back in the archives, Ive been on this site quite a while trying anything new for a so called healthier lawn. I even purchased a microscope with camera to watch soil activity.

We still offer organic products with our Dump truck , fork lift, skid steer and Power spreaders. I mean that literally. Oh ya Im a rat trap expert too now because of it.

Many USA Golf Couse superintendents, USA municipalities all have a similar view now that they have been using these organic products for the past 5 or so years.

I dont need to show the links althought I could, you show me the proof organics work without cheating using the occasional pesticide.

Why did Frank Rossi at Cornell University fail at the Bethpage Black Organic Program, because he is stubborn or a dummy, which is it?

Smallaxe
08-21-2011, 07:36 PM
Still equating organics with no herbicides for weedfree lawns... Whassup with that???

OrganicsMaine
08-21-2011, 08:52 PM
So Hay, what you are saying is that organics is a total crock of Sh*t? I would love for you to put a sample program of yours down on paper or here in the forum. I know that you can't use synthetics, so I just want to see what it is that you are doing to create a great lawn.

HayBay
08-21-2011, 10:59 PM
OrganicsMaine, that is a great question.

Our lawns are failing. Customers are picking weeds by hand once the lawn care operator leaves. We deal with grubs by reseeding, we deal with chinch bugs by reseeding, crabgrass is the new green. Im talking about all the companies here.

Do you really think that if organics or lets say alterative options worked I would be saying this stuff, do you not think that some of the less dumb or stubborn people in Ontario would be adapting and braging if this stuff was true?

Do you wonder why a guy like ECOGUY would start a thread titles "am i a sellout"?
Do you wonder why the OP started this thread?

I want to see the guys in this forum show me the solution. But you can't, its always an excuse or story.

How about the line "it takes 3 years to get your lawn off drugs."
or
"You can get cancer using pesticides"

The suppliers in this forum have a new revolutionary Organic replacement product to promote every month, why?

Show me an organic Sod producer and I will believe.

Chip osborne wants more than $100,000 per year to control weeds in a municipal setting

He resorts to Goats and bugs that eat thistle.

Many here know more than the Univeristy Extensions in this Sub Forum when it comes to Organic results for lawns. Explain that to me.

You want Green, it is possible with Organic Products, they are great in drought conditions when synthetics are not. But weed control is not likely, Weed reduction may be.

You want to know what the activists in Ontario say now that weeds are an every day fact of life here, "whats wrong with edible dandelion, they are pretty and means the soil is healthier". "Clover is nice in the lawn"

Like I said, SHOW ME ORGANIC SOD.

The best option for an organic lawn is to move away from grass seed.
"why would you waste your time growing grass"

This is something guys that know about soil health will tell you.

Apart from the detrators of possible soil health and microbial activity, I do think that a Bridge type program would be a great option if your client wants a weed free lawn.

OrganicsMaine Now lets hear your 100% Organic program, I want to try it.
But I am calling BS. If it works I will come back and admit it.

OrganicsMaine
08-21-2011, 11:24 PM
Well Hay, I had originally asked to see what program you were using to do your work. Guess I won't get that. My programs range from a "bridge" program to a full organic program. Do I tell my customers that their lawn will not have any weeds? No. Would I tell them that their lawn won't have any weeds if I was synthetically treating them? No. In fact, with a summer like this one, there are very few lawns in my area that have come through unscathed. Crabgrass abounds everywhere, and for the non irrigated lawns, they are going to require some major renovations.

To be honest, my programs are based on my customer's wants and needs. If they have a low/no weed tolerance, then it is always a bridge program, and I am honest with them about it. However, I can say that I have used Cedar Cure from ICT (Via Tech Terra), and it has worked well on the grubs.

I work hard to educate my customers and explain to them what will need to be done in order to go organic. I also tell them what their responsibilities are, and what they should expect from either of my programs. If I start with bridge, then it is done with the goal of getting them over to a fully organic program in time. If it is organic that they want, then we go all out for that.

So, no, you don't need to call BS, because I don't have a silverbullet for you. But for you to say that organics just don't work, I have to call BS, because it is working for me.

HayBay
08-22-2011, 12:15 AM
We dont have that option. Its either Organic now or Organic now. No Weening them off of pesticides and then when they start complaining give them a quick app of 2,4-D

Your customers will not be as tolerant as you say, unless you only have 1.

Educate is what the Ontario government and activists say over and over, do you think customers really listen, give me a break on that one.



Ontario residents are now going to the USA to buy their pesticides and applying it themselves.

But I am glad you were honest. I was expecting a different answer.

I posted a link to Tendershoots in another thread, they were organic with Compost type slurry setup, a first in Ontario since the ban. Guess what they are offering now, FIESTA. (a crappy alternative pesticide just to barely meet customer expectations if they use the product off label)

Just out of curiosity what percentage of your customer base is 100% Organic

HayBay
08-22-2011, 12:42 AM
I also wanted to bring up Total Vegetation Management for anyone interested.

You know, killing all weeds and grasses on patios, gravel driveways, bike paths etc.... ON A LARGE SCALE.

How do you do this organically (safely) as opposed to (dangerous) RoundUP and without revisiting the job site every 2 weeks for the whole season.

I could go on about the major failures associated with steam, ammonium soaps of fatty acids, acetic acid, flames, goats.... (non systemic properties, regrowth, cost)

But there is probably a way to make a healthier gravel to resist weeds I bet.
Microbial activity of the rocks.

replenish&subdue
11-03-2011, 09:57 AM
I am also a NOFA graduate and while there asked Chip Osborne while in class to tell me how pre-emergents hurt people,pets or the environment. He couldn't answer it and slipped to talking about 2-4D which is a post emerge. I have asked the same question on this forum I would think because I ask all the organic heads I can.
But I would say don't throw out the baby with the bath water. I will be going on my 4 th year without synthetic fertilizers or chemicals on my lawn & shrubs,even no pre-emerges and my T-10 bermuda,meyers,palisade and calvalier zoysias and tall fescue are top notch. (That's right have all the above turf types). For pre-emerge I use corn glutton. My mistake is I used the new liquid last year and 92 yr.old granny had to pick some crabgrass. I always have crabgrass but less each year with the exception of using the liquid.I would stick with the granular. I use cotton burr compost spread with the Earth & Turf Sp 100 which by the way is so much better than the other "top selling" blue machine. My Sp 100 spreads easily cotton burr which is at least 30 % moisture content. I have a number of other organic/natural products I use.
Conclusion : organic is not practical for business because corn glutton is too expensive and has too many requirements to make it work effectively such as timing,watering.
Chemicals are not something to be dispised when properly applied. The EPA makes sure they are safe enough for the public if rightly applied. I think it is incredible that weeds can be ridden and not hurt the grass. What a business. Go ahead and fight with organics. Because of the curse man will always be sweating to deal with weeds.

Smallaxe
11-03-2011, 10:38 PM
Organic is about growing things, not ,killing things.... Environments that CG proliferate simply means that the environment for turf is not properly cared for... :)

Kiril
11-09-2011, 11:00 AM
I am also a NOFA graduate and while there asked Chip Osborne while in class to tell me how pre-emergents hurt people,pets or the environment. He couldn't answer it and slipped to talking about 2-4D which is a post emerge. I have asked the same question on this forum I would think because I ask all the organic heads I can.

Here are a few.

Siduron: http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@term+@DOCNO+1764

Dicamba: http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@term+@DOCNO+311

Isoxaben: http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@term+@DOCNO+6691

Benfluralin: http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@term+@DOCNO+407

Trifluralin: http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@term+@DOCNO+1003

HayBay
11-13-2011, 05:42 PM
Here is some more:

Aspirin: http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@term+@DOCNO+3001

Table Salt: http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@term+@DOCNO+6368

Vinegar: http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@term+@DOCNO+40

The Ontario Farmer Papers mentioned in the Dicamba Link in the above post involved Dr. Tye Arbuckle, I doubt you will find her talking crap about pesticide dangers.

replenish&subdue
11-18-2011, 11:52 AM
Haybay and Kiril need to get their facts accurate. I never said that some post emerges are not dangerous in some way but show me a pre-emerge (like prodiamine) that hurts people,plants or environment. I have natural products that kill broadleaves but no natural or organic product that successfully prevents grassy weeds. Corn glutton is not practical to use when treating residential in a business. This is due to timing,two or three years to have adequate control and cost.
Should be more open to some chemicals used on lawns that pose no threat to health any more (or less) than head & shoulders.

Kiril
11-18-2011, 12:31 PM
Haybay and Kiril need to get their facts accurate. I never said that some post emerges are not dangerous in some way but show me a pre-emerge (like prodiamine) that hurts people,plants or environment.

I posted links to 5 pre-emergents. Did you read them or do I need to copy and paste?

replenish&subdue
11-18-2011, 12:39 PM
Only post pre-emerges.Thanks

Kiril
11-18-2011, 12:45 PM
Only post pre-emerges.Thanks
Explain a "post pre-emerge"? Either it acts as a pre-emergent or not. All five that I listed are used for pre-emergent control.

replenish&subdue
11-18-2011, 02:04 PM
A pre-emerge prevents weeds from germinating. I believe all the ones you listed are post emergents that kill weeds already up. For example,Dicamba is a postemergent. The two most used pre-emerges are probably Prodiamine and Pendulum.

Kiril
11-18-2011, 02:19 PM
A pre-emerge prevents weeds from germinating. I believe all the ones you listed are post emergents that kill weeds already up. For example,Dicamba is a postemergent. The two most used pre-emerges are probably Prodiamine and Pendulum.

No, all of them are listed as having pre-emergence control. Some of them are also listed as having post-emergent control, that however does not negate pre-emergent properties. Can you please get your facts straight.

For example Dicamba, which you think is only a post-emergent.

http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/carbaryl-dicrotophos/dicamba-ext.html

Dicamba is a benzoic acid herbicide. It can be applied to the leaves or to the soil. Dicamba controls annual and perennial broadleaf weeds in grain crops and grasslands, and it is used to control brush and bracken in pastures. It will kill broadleaf weeds before and after they sprout. Legumes will be killed by dicamba (3, 5). In combination with a phenoxyalkanoic acid or other herbicide, dicamba is used in pastures, range land, and non-crop areas (fence-rows, roadways and wastage) to control weeds (1).


Here is Siduron

http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/herb-growthreg/sethoxydim-vernolate/siduron/herb-prof-siduron.html

APPLICATION METHOD(S): Applied as a preemergence treatment to bare soil as a final operation following spring seeding, or to new fall seedings or established turf in the spring just before expected emergence of annual weed grasses


Do I need to continue? FYI, I checked to make sure they could be used for pre-emergent control before I posted them.

replenish&subdue
11-18-2011, 04:13 PM
Yes but that is yes and no. A number of postemerge products have some pre-emerge activity but they are not considered pre-emerges. The vast majority of all (the few who don't are confused) use Prodiamine,Pendulum and Drive(product name). Besides I am talking mainly about preventing grassy weeds like crabgrass and not broadleaves.
Therefore show me the studies where the most common pre-emerges that control grassy weeds harm people,pets or the environment.If it is out there you would be the one who can find it. I know you are well respected on this forum and by me but I am saying the organic/natural world might be a little more open to at least pre-emerges that control crabgrass because that is one area the org. have no solution. I have seen organic companies come and go in the south because they can not beat the crabgrass. Well,what's the harm in including the prodiamine if it causes no harm.
After all even NOFA allows pyrethrum which comes from the chrysanthemum and thus is natural but so is snake venom. Pyrethrum is harmful to people and should not be on any organic/natural program but yet it is justified because I guess they needed Something.

phasthound
11-18-2011, 06:26 PM
NOFA standards will not allow chemicals, safe or not, as they are not considered organic.

As far as the toxicity of prodiamine:
http://www.apvma.gov.au/registration/assessment/docs/prs_prodiamine.pdf
http://www.cdms.net/LDat/mp6TO004.pdf
pmep.cce.cornell.edu/.../prodiamine/barricade-reg-nys.html
www.ocvts.org/webdocs/resources/ipm/barricade65g-facts.pdf

replenish&subdue
11-18-2011, 08:14 PM
Thanks for input. I am not for or against but hope for a little openness and acceptance for some chemical products until discoveries are made to not have to use them. Meanwhile organic/natural has hurtles it has not been able to jump and it is either include some pre-emerges or eventually have grassy weeds take over especially if one lives in warmer climates.
The links confirmed that Prodiamine is quite safe for a man made product.Here is one summary from the link, "With respect to the proposed use patterns, exposure to birds (and small mammals) to prodiamine residues would primarily be via the eating of treated turf and of seed or insects that were in the turf when it was sprayed with the formulated material. Based on the estimated dietary intakes of prodiamine by birds (and small mammals) following the proposed application of Barricade Turf Herbicide at the maximum use rate of 1.92 kg prodiamine/ha and comparison of such values with the relevant subchronic dietary LC50 or NOECs, risk to birds (and small mammals) through eating of prodiamine contaminated feed has been shown to be acceptable.

And yes,NOFA standards forbid chemicals but I am saying that pyrethruims,although natural are harmful to people,pets,and plants yet because they are natural find acceptance. They are used down where I am in misting systems which are sprayed 3 times a day. I hear complaints of rashes and respiratory reactions,plant damage due to burning and they will do harm to beneficial insects like bees and butterflies that come in contact with the spray.

But I think it will come down to a number of people only want to use organic/natural means and deal with it short comings and enlighten people to their superiority which I respect. I think that is what this forum is about and it has a number of pioneers who have made a way when their was no way or rather rediscovered.

Kiril
11-18-2011, 11:10 PM
A number of postemerge products have some pre-emerge activity but they are not considered pre-emerges. The vast majority of all (the few who don't are confused) use Prodiamine,Pendulum and Drive(product name). Besides I am talking mainly about preventing grassy weeds like crabgrass and not broadleaves.

First, you never specified anything in your question ... you just stated pre-emergent. As with Chip, you have now slipped into talking about something else.

Second, Drive is listed as a post-emergence herbicide. Who is confused here?

http://www.cdms.net/ldat/ld8LD000.pdf

Drive® XLR8 herbicide may be applied postemer-
gence to residential and nonresidential turfgrasses


And from Cornell, which notes the same. Go ahead a read the Cornell doc, you might find some interesting information regarding impacts.

http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/herb-growthreg/naa-rimsulfuron/quinclorac/quincl_den_0801.html

Third, just because you and your buddies don't consider them a pre-emergent doesn't mean they aren't. If the active ingredient (ingredients) can exert pre-emergent control, and they are listed as doing as much, then it is a pre-emergent.

Therefore show me the studies where the most common pre-emerges that control grassy weeds harm people,pets or the environment.If it is out there you would be the one who can find it. I know you are well respected on this forum and by me but I am saying the organic/natural world might be a little more open to at least pre-emerges that control crabgrass because that is one area the org. have no solution. I have seen organic companies come and go in the south because they can not beat the crabgrass. Well,what's the harm in including the prodiamine if it causes no harm.
After all even NOFA allows pyrethrum which comes from the chrysanthemum and thus is natural but so is snake venom. Pyrethrum is harmful to people and should not be on any organic/natural program but yet it is justified because I guess they needed Something.

As I have said before, you can make the argument that water is harmful to the environment, humans, etc.... If you won't do the research necessary to see where and how the use of these synthetic products can impact the environment, etc.... then I am done here.

replenish&subdue
11-19-2011, 12:26 AM
No way ,don't go away just yet. Right Drive is a post but I don't use it much except to control crabgrass in fescue when it is already up ,so yes it is a postemerge. [I] meant to say Dimension so my mistake but still correct. Where you can learn is that ALL the chemical heads (Tru-green,Scotts,little chem.heads...)wouldn't touch the products you listed to prevent crabgrass but use Prodiamine or Pendulum. And as Barry provided Prodiamine is safe at home plate. Therefore just learn,consider and go on a more informed person sticking to your organics(we all cheer you on) but know that no organic head can say the above mentioned pre-emerges are as terribly bad as we would label them to be.As much as I want to use all organic/natural, to keep my business and to feed my three children I use the evil pre-emerge that harms no one and hope one day a better way be found just because I like to see nature work out the problems without our interference. Really I hate chemicals and ever since being enlightened to feed the soil and not the plant,I am convinced we messed things up and am all for going back to the Beginning. As I previously said,in my yard I will be going on to my fourth year without chemicals or synthetics (fertilizers or weed control on my bermuda,zoysia and fescue yard. I control crabgrass with corn glutton and my wife's 92 yr.old grandmother. Look again into the facts of what is considered a true,effective pre-emerge used by those who are in the business of preventing crabgrass and what post emerge just has some minute pre emerge control. And again what significant harm has Prodiamine to the environment,people and pets.

HayBay
11-19-2011, 10:05 AM
FYI

Phasthound sells cavalcade with his weed and feed mixes.
Chip is the head of Marblestone Ma Parks and Rec dept.
You want to know how Marblehead MA maintains piper stadium,
with almost 2 million dollars of synthetic turf.

Take away bridge or transitional and you are left with weeds.
EPA registered products that damage the environment when label directions are followed, highly doubtful.
People using EPA registered products wrong and polluting? this is possible.
People using Gasoline to fill their gas tank and Polluting, this is also possible
People using FIESTA herbicide OFF LABEL (because FIESTA does not work at recommended label rates) This is happening right now. Is Fiesta safe when used off label, of couse not.
Are Fatty Acids lethal to frogs, yes they are. NOFA approved frog killer.
Look at the ingredients in Avenger Weed Killer, causes cancer in rats but NOFA approved.
Have you ever applied Acetic Acid (vinegar) and accidently sprayed a grasshopper or frog runs through the application before suggested reentry intervals? Try it, they start to burn alive.
This doesnt happen with ROUNDUP (glyphosate)

No products are safe, not even table salt.

Should we just hide under the couch now?

phasthound
11-19-2011, 10:14 AM
Do I hear frank rossi from cornell talking here?
-------------------------------
Phasthound sells cavalcade with his weed and feed mixes.
Chip is the head of Marblestone Ma Parks and Rec dept.
You want to know how Marblehead MA maintains piper stadium,
with almost 2 million dollars of synthetic turf.

Take away bridge or transitional and you are left with weeds.
EPA registered products that damage the environment when label directions are followed, highly doubtful.
People using EPA registered products wrong and polluting? this is possible.
People using Gasoline to fill their gas tank and Polluting, this is also possible
People using FIESTA herbicide OFF LABEL (because FIESTA does not work at recommended label rates) This is happening right now. Is Fiesta safe when used off label, of couse not.
Are Fatty Acids lethal to frogs, yes they are. NOFA approved frog killer.
Look at the ingredients in Avenger Weed Killer, causes cancer in rats but NOFA approved.
Have you ever applied Acetic Acid (vinegar) and accidently sprayed a grasshopper or frog runs through the application before suggested reentry intervals? Try it, they start to burn alive.
This doesnt happen with ROUNDUP (glyphosate)

No products are safe, not even table salt.

Should we just hide under the couch now?

You do like to spin the facts, don't you? You forgot "Tobacco is non-addictive and makes you feel better".

HayBay
11-19-2011, 10:57 AM
Pesticides are Federally Regulated.
How long has tobacco been federally regulated?

Spining the facts is exactly what you and jay feldman (Beyond Pesticides) do daily.

Associating yourself with Pesticide Advocacy groups and selling Cavalcade. Funny stuff.

Generating money from NOFA courses (on the premise that synthetic pesticides are dangerous) , having a Speaker talk about the importance of LABEL Safety and how following the label is critical, then 1 hour later talking about how great FIESTA herbicide is, but knowing full well label directions are not going to happen.
Funny Funny.....

You really don't know what its like to be organic in the lawn care industy.
You have pesticides as a backup.
Stop selling synthetic pesticides and prove to all of us you know what your are saying.

Kiril
11-19-2011, 11:19 AM
Where you can learn is that ALL the chemical heads (Tru-green,Scotts,little chem.heads...)wouldn't touch the products you listed to prevent crabgrass but use Prodiamine or Pendulum.

:laugh: OK r&s.

And as Barry provided Prodiamine is safe at home plate.

Really? So now we have reduced your statement concerning any pre-emergent herbicides to the single herbicide Prodiamine to control crabgrass. Have it your way.

http://www.cdms.net/LDat/mp7T0002.pdf

REPRODUCTIVE/DEVELOPMENT EFFECTS
Prodiamine:
Fetal toxicity at high dose levels (rats); development and maternal toxicity observed
at 1 g/kg/day.
CHRONIC/SUBCHRONIC TOXICITY STUDIES
Prodiamine:
Liver (alteration and enlargement) and thyroid effects (hormone imbalances) at high
does levels (rats); decreased body weight gains.
CARCINOGENICITY
Prodiamine:
Benign thyroid tumors (rat). None observed (mouse).
.
.
.
.
SUMMARY OF EFFECTS: Highly toxic to fish and invertebrates. Practically non-toxic to birds and bees.


Furthermore, the EPA lists it as a possible/probable human carcinogen (ref (http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/TOOLS/PNAI/pnaishow.php?id=61)) and if you look at the EPA registration docket, you will find not only is it still open/pending approval, but there is an alarming amount of data/studies that have yet to be conducted.

http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/registration_review/prodiamine/

But hey .... it's OK to use (test) this product on an unsuspecting environment and population.
Safe at home base ..... I think not.

Again, no point in continuing here because you (like others) will tell yourself whatever you need in order to feel good/justified about using synthetics because short term gains will always outweigh long term consequences.

replenish&subdue
11-19-2011, 02:48 PM
Congratulations Kiril. Prodiamine is highly toxic to invertebrates and fish. That means you are the first to be able to tell me and again proves why you carry weight on this forum. Thanks and now I know.
Hopefully someone will discover a means to control crabgrass without the health dangers.

phasthound
11-19-2011, 05:01 PM
Pesticides are Federally Regulated.
How long has tobacco been federally regulated?

Spining the facts is exactly what you and jay feldman (Beyond Pesticides) do daily.

Associating yourself with Pesticide Advocacy groups and selling Cavalcade. Funny stuff.

Generating money from NOFA courses (on the premise that synthetic pesticides are dangerous) , having a Speaker talk about the importance of LABEL Safety and how following the label is critical, then 1 hour later talking about how great FIESTA herbicide is, but knowing full well label directions are not going to happen.
Funny Funny.....

You really don't know what its like to be organic in the lawn care industy.
You have pesticides as a backup.
Stop selling synthetic pesticides and prove to all of us you know what your are saying.

Hay,

I associate with both advocacy and industry groups. When I do, I try to help them understand that they may have more in common than they think. I believe there is a lot of misinformation coming from both directions. I prefer to see people work together in problem solving, unfortunately that is not the norm these days.

The fees we charge for our classes are used to cover the costs for room rental, speaker fees, free lunch and promotion. There is no profit, but yes we do hope to gain clients from these events.

Following the label is the Law, why would we not include this information in these classes? Fiesta not working? We have several clients who would disagree with that comment. FYI, due to further research completed this year, the 2012 Fiesta label will have a lower rate.

When we were an applicator company, the only pesticides we used were EPA Exempt Minimum Risk and/or approved for use by the NOP. This program was successful in providing our residential clients with beautiful healthy lawns that did have some weeds.

As a supply company we offer organic, natural and transitional programs for the professional. Prodiamine and Fiesta are the only EPA registered pesticides we sell. Our goal is to greatly reduce the amount of pesticides that are overused by the industry. We prefer to do so without additional legislation such as has happened in Canada. We think a better model is with education and using effective products at comparative costs.

HayBay
11-19-2011, 08:45 PM
it never ends....

$18.00 for a bag of nutrientsplus fertilizer with cavalcade (controls weeds) herbicide (covers what like 5,000 to 10,000 sq ft)? 8 weeks of residual effect (2 apps a year) = $36.00 per year.

$250 for 10 L of Fiesta (1.7 Liters covers 5,000 sq ft) so $42.50 per app times 5 applications a year to keep the weeds down (supression), not including fertilizing the lawn = $212.50 per year in Fiesta for 5,000 sq ft of lawn and you will still have weeds, and the turf will become thin from the excess usage of Fiesta. (the label says 2 apps only)

Neither product is any safer than the other.

Paul Tukey was hired by the Canadian Cancer Society to help ban Cosmetic Pesticides here in Canada. Talk about Educating. They promoted his fearmongering movie to every province.

Paul Tukey and yourself have several pictures floating around the internet with each other. Gurus of Organics.

Education is what I am doing, Educating people about people like you two.

You are working on a project now , Glenstone project in its 1st year. a Lawn Converted from Pesticide to Organic. (It took 3 years to see a decline in Pestiticide treated lawns here once the ban was implemented) Claiming success and having people hand pick weeds, using compost and compost tea. In 3 more years you will realize that it was a failure, unless you use a bit of cavalcade. Not much Cavalcade is needed. Nobody will know right. Nobody will get sick right, because its safe as you said before. It is EPA approved.

Why could your gang not wait until the Organic experiment was over before writing books, making movies and creating Organic Land Care Associations about how organics create a weed free lawn.

Tukey knows nothing about Quebec, they still use Dicamba, Imidacloprid and Glyphosate just to name a few. Quebec just recently announced 2,4-D was safe for the environment and people when used as directed. Why don't you promote that.


Let me answer my own question here, Its all about MONEY. Not Safety and not the Environment.

Your group will destroy the Greenspace Industry if they are not stopped.

Thousands of people have lost their business here in Ontario because of this ban.

If there was a safer registered product that worked for us, why would I waste my time telling people this stuff.

I joined this site in 2004 to share experiences and to help others as they have helped me in the past. From contracts to spray equipment to snow plowing.

You are selling pesticides, tukey is selling books and movies.

The sad part is people will only believe what I am saying after they buy FIESTA and try it for themselves. You still make money on the sale. But the repeat customers will end.

Take away Synthetic pesticides and say hello to weeds.

Fiesta not working? We have several clients who would disagree with that comment. FYI, due to further research completed this year, the 2012 Fiesta label will have a lower rate.
Feel free to provide proof of this. The only way that will happen is to legally allow 4 to 6 applications a year. Knowing people still need to use the highest rate. Which in turn defeats the purpose of environmentally friendly and safe.

The reason Fiesta is allowed at 2 apps a year is the dangers of FeHEDTA at greater rates. Food crops do not exceed these limits why should lawns.

phasthound
11-19-2011, 10:02 PM
You're probably right. But you are making some leaps of faith in coming to the conclusions you are drawing from a few of the facts you have right.

I'm sorry that the pesticide regulations in Canada have made you so bitter. I do hope the US does not follow this direction.

If you have followed my posts here through the years you should be aware that I am not opposed to a few applications of pesticides as long as the program is not being promoted as "organic". I do believe that soil health and good cultural practices greatly reduce the need for most pesticide applications. I also believe that the current overuse of pesticides is detrimental to the environment and our health. I do not believe this puts me in the same category as a fear mongering anti-pesticide activist.

I also believe it is good business practice for the independent lawn care companies to stop listening to what is being fed to them by chemical manufacturers and learn how to provide healthy lawns without relying so heavily on pesticides and synthetic fertilizers.

I bear no ill feelings towards you and I will ask you to show the same courtesy towards me. At least I place my name on my posts.

HayBay
11-20-2011, 11:44 AM
Even though your group alludes to the fact that all lawn care operators and all home owners are idiots and cannot make the correct determination when using EPA approved pesticides, Thanks for saving the world.

I see Celebritism in your future and will be proud to say I once corresponded with you.

P.S.
Let me know the facts I got wrong, I strive to correct statements that have been provided as non factual.

phasthound
11-20-2011, 03:10 PM
Even though your group alludes to the fact that all lawn care operators and all home owners are idiots and cannot make the correct determination when using EPA approved pesticides, Thanks for saving the world.

I see Celebritism in your future and will be proud to say I once corresponded with you.

P.S.
Let me know the facts I got wrong, I strive to correct statements that have been provided as non factual.

Hay, I think you are barking at the wrong dog here. The groups I belong to include: NJ Landscaper Contractors Association, NJ Turf Grass Association, NJ Nursery & Landscape Association, NJ Sports Field Managers Association, NJ Environmental Federation.

$18.00 for a bag of nutrientsplus fertilizer with cavalcade (controls weeds) herbicide (covers what like 5,000 to 10,000 sq ft)? 8 weeks of residual effect (2 apps a year) = $36.00 per year. The price of NP w/cavalcade varies widely depending on volume purchased, shipping location and formulation. There are 3 formulations available, 16-2-3, 10-4-2, and 5-5-0 all with 0.37% Cavalcade. All formulations are applied only once at 4lbs/K and provide up to 4 months protection.

$250 for 10 L of Fiesta (1.7 Liters covers 5,000 sq ft) so $42.50 per app times 5 applications a year to keep the weeds down (supression), not including fertilizing the lawn = $212.50 per year in Fiesta for 5,000 sq ft of lawn and you will still have weeds, and the turf will become thin from the excess usage of Fiesta. (the label says 2 apps only) We recommend using Fiesta as a spot treatment only, not as a broadcast treatment. We have found it to effectively control dandelions, clover and some other broad-leaf weeds with 2 applications in the spring and sometimes 2 more in the fall. The US label states "Do not apply to the same area more than 4 times a year". We do not promote "excess usage" of Fiesta, or any other products.

Neither product is any safer than the other. The EPA lists Prodiamine as Category III, Fiesta as Category IV: Cat IV is less toxic.

Paul Tukey was hired by the Canadian Cancer Society to help ban Cosmetic Pesticides here in Canada. Talk about Educating. They promoted his fearmongering movie to every province. And what does this have to do with me?

Paul Tukey and yourself have several pictures floating around the internet with each other. Gurus of Organics. I have crossed paths with Paul 3 times in my life. This was one of them.

Education is what I am doing, Educating people about people like you two. No comment.

You are working on a project now , Glenstone project in its 1st year. a Lawn Converted from Pesticide to Organic. (It took 3 years to see a decline in Pestiticide treated lawns here once the ban was implemented) Claiming success and having people hand pick weeds, using compost and compost tea. I am not involved in this project, I will be visiting the estate this Monday for the first time.

In 3 more years you will realize that it was a failure, unless you use a bit of cavalcade. Not much Cavalcade is needed. Nobody will know right. Nobody will get sick right, because its safe as you said before. It is EPA approved.
Hopefully I will be invited back to the site in 3 years to report on the progress. Other sites I have actually been involved with have certainly produced fine lawns and playing fields. You are making an inaccurate acqusation if you think I would try to sneak Cavalcade into an organic program. As I have stated elsewhere, we provide several options including organic, natural or transitional programs and we are quite clear as to which products are allowed under each category.

Why could your gang not wait until the Organic experiment was over before writing books, making movies and creating Organic Land Care Associations about how organics create a weed free lawn. I'm not sure which gang you think I belong to. I have not been involved in writing books, making movies or creating Organic Land Care Associations. BTW, I am not aware of any organic association that promises a weed free lawn. Usually they say it is OK to accept some weeds.

Tukey knows nothing about Quebec, they still use Dicamba, Imidacloprid and Glyphosate just to name a few. Quebec just recently announced 2,4-D was safe for the environment and people when used as directed. Why don't you promote that. Again, what does Tukey have to do with me? I am not that in tune with Quebec, I don't think I've made that claim. The EPA does have Roundup under review due to concerns of inert ingredients.

Let me answer my own question here, Its all about MONEY. Not Safety and not the Environment. I can guarantee you I would be making a lot more money if I choose to concentrate on the sales of pesticides. I seriously doubt you would make this claim after reviewing my balance sheet.

Your group will destroy the Greenspace Industry if they are not stopped. What group is that?

Thousands of people have lost their business here in Ontario because of this ban. I am truly sorry to hear that and hope the same does not happen here in the US.

If there was a safer registered product that worked for us, why would I waste my time telling people this stuff. I don't know. But why do you use that time attacking someone you know very little about?

I joined this site in 2004 to share experiences and to help others as they have helped me in the past. From contracts to spray equipment to snow plowing.

You are selling pesticides, tukey is selling books and movies. I joined the group to share my experiences and insight in a cordial manner (most of the time :)). I sell a few pesticides. Why do you keep lumping me with Tukey?

The sad part is people will only believe what I am saying after they buy FIESTA and try it for themselves. You still make money on the sale. But the repeat customers will end. So far repeat sales have been good. When I speak with prospects about Fiesta, I try to be clear that it is not an organic product,it is registered by the EPA as a pesticide, requires a license to apply, should be used as a spot treatment, will take at least 2 applications and may not be as effective on some broad-leaf weeds as some chemical herbicides. With this understanding, most are pleased with the results.

Take away Synthetic pesticides and say hello to weeds. The amount of weeds will depend on how good the rest of your program is including; proper irrigation, mowing, seeding practices, and improving soil health. a strictly organic program will always have some weeds.

I can certainly understand the frustrations you are having due to the restrictions on lawn care in Canada, you are entitled to your opinions. May I suggest that before you make more unfounded remarks, you ask some questions you might have about me, my company, and my beliefs.

Tim Wilson
11-20-2011, 03:34 PM
Holy HayBay; Did you every pick out the wrong guy. Barry is just about the least pushy, most open-minded guys in the industry.

If you are going to attack people should you not be outlining your identity and credentials which qualify you to do so?

BTW, the weeds (dandelions & plantain) reduced themselves in my lawn this year just through applying molasses, ACT and setting the mower on 3.5 inches.

HayBay
11-20-2011, 06:27 PM
I stand corrected on the Fiesta Apps for USA.
The label does say 4 times in one year.
http://www.engageagrousa.com/uploads/Product%20Labels/Engage%20Fiesta%20Label%201.pdf

My reference to pesticide safety is they are all dangerous if used off label no matter the category. Less toxic does not mean safe.

We will revisit the Glendale project later on, as the results will be very interesting to see.

If you really are not associated with Tukeys gang I apologize.

replenish&subdue
11-20-2011, 06:55 PM
Barry,
I think you draw a good bridge between the natural/organic and those of us who need crabgrass control and need a pre emerge. If the shipping was more affordable I would be using your product. The price is reasonable for the specialty fertilizer it is. A word of thanks for your input on this forum over the years.

phasthound
11-20-2011, 11:05 PM
Tim & Replenish, thank you for your kind words. Hay, no need to apologize just check your facts before making any personal attack.

Kiril
11-21-2011, 12:19 AM
Hay has an agenda, and facts are not a part of that agenda.

HayBay
11-25-2011, 08:37 PM
http://www.techterraorganics.com/tech-terra-news/press/54-organic-based-plant-health-care-approachq-by-barry-draycott-published-pnla-magazine-and-njlca-magazine

Great article Phasthound.

I remember when the boys would talk about stuff like this in 2003-2004 on this site. Guys like Lawrence Stone or Ric.

I do wish you would put more emphasis on the importance of Synthetic Pesticides, I still feel using words like ORGANIC PHC are making people think that Synthetic Pesticides (ones that are proven to work and work well) are not needed and should be a tool that is taken away from Professional Applicators.

Does NOFA agree with and teach their members to use Synthetics when needed or is their message Synthetics are not required as their are suitable Low Risk products available?


I am hoping you do not take these questions as personal, as that is not my intention.

HayBay.

HayBay
11-25-2011, 08:50 PM
Could we not take an Organic Based Plant Health Care approach and run a Nursery or Turf Farm?

It would be revolutionary and you would be a Star.

Just a thought.

Smallaxe
11-26-2011, 07:29 AM
Could we not take an Organic Based Plant Health Care approach and run a Nursery or Turf Farm?

It would be revolutionary and you would be a Star.

Just a thought.

I remember when this forum was active, the claim was made that spraying compost tea on the walls inside the nursery would outdo the pathogens otherwise common in a greenhouse.

Don't know if it has ever caught on...

Tim Wilson
11-26-2011, 04:16 PM
I remember when this forum was active, the claim was made that spraying compost tea on the walls inside the nursery would outdo the pathogens otherwise common in a greenhouse.

Don't know if it has ever caught on...

Really? Someone claimed that?

Smallaxe
11-27-2011, 11:07 AM
Really? Someone claimed that?

Yes, it was ICT Bill, but there was never any real followup and I often wondered if it was actually doable...
Too much Urban Legend everywhere... :)

cecropia11
12-12-2011, 10:56 AM
So dicamba acid has some pre emergent control but for how long once it is applied to the soil.

HayBay
02-02-2012, 07:09 PM
Not to bring up an old post, but I thought I should point out an overlooked detail about Prodiamine ( Cavalcade )

This is from the EPA website:


238806

238807

238808