PDA

View Full Version : Flywheel stuck


robro1102
08-21-2011, 04:31 PM
Several of you have tried to help me with what I thought was a starter problem. I have removed the starter and now discover that the flywheel itself seems to be stuck. This is a Toro Z5000 Kohler engine.

My previous thread, Starter Just Clicks, has gotten me to this point. I have removed the plastic blade cover and the flywheel will not budge.

I am attaching a picture of the flywheel. The mower has been working great up until last week when all this happened. It seems that I am an idiot. I have washed my entire mower over the past couple of years and it appears to have rusted the flywheel some, but I don't think that is the issue. It is just surface rust.

I would like to investigate further but afraid to. I can't see why the wheel will not move. Is it bolted down? Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.

robro1102
08-21-2011, 04:37 PM
just testing this thread

robro1102
08-21-2011, 05:54 PM
I can't move the flywheel at all. I know the oil level was fine. I read somewhere on here that a bearing can "melt to the shaft". Is that possible? I don't see any oil in this thing now. Would the oil leak into the engine somewhere but not out onto the garage floor? I have never seen a leak?

Restrorob
08-21-2011, 05:55 PM
You need a puller such as this to get the flywheel popped loose, Some chain auto parts stores have them in their loan-a-tool program.

And, There was no need in starting another thread.....


http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m314/Restrorob/Tools/SteeringWheelPuller.jpg

ed2hess
08-21-2011, 06:06 PM
Could t his be a clutch that melted down?

Restrorob
08-21-2011, 06:30 PM
Could t his be a clutch that melted down?

In most cases you would still be able to rock the flywheel back and forth the distance between the clutch and clutch stop bracket/bolt. The way I've read, The flywheel doesn't move AT ALL ?

rwaters
08-21-2011, 09:44 PM
I can't move the flywheel at all. I know the oil level was fine. I read somewhere on here that a bearing can "melt to the shaft". Is that possible? I don't see any oil in this thing now. Would the oil leak into the engine somewhere but not out onto the garage floor? I have never seen a leak?

i could be a lot of things, but restro is taking you threw steps that will be less intrusive for you. I could be a long way to the answer but if you follow his steps you have a chance of repair. Remember we are trying to troubleshoot over what you have told us, it is much easier to troubleshoot and engine when we can see and touch it.

topsites
08-22-2011, 01:26 AM
I think we have a misunderstanding, from what I gather the operator is not
trying to remove the flywheel, he is trying to get it to turn over the engine.

If such is the case, try removing the spark plug(s),
doing that will relieve any internal engine compression.

Could be a gasoline-filled cylinder keeping the engine from turning, for example.
Removing the spark plug(s) should let you turn the engine over via the flywheel.

If, however, you are trying to physically separate the flywheel from the engine, then you should follow Restrorob's instructions.

piston slapper
08-22-2011, 11:32 AM
I think we have a misunderstanding, from what I gather the operator is not
trying to remove the flywheel, he is trying to get it to turn over the engine.

If such is the case, try removing the spark plug(s),
doing that will relieve any internal engine compression.

Could be a gasoline-filled cylinder keeping the engine from turning, for example.
Removing the spark plug(s) should let you turn the engine over via the flywheel.

If, however, you are trying to physically separate the flywheel from the engine, then you should follow Restrorob's instructions.

MISUNDERSTANDING???????:confused:

Now there's an Understatement.....
How about some engine #'s
How about checking the engine oil before starting a thread ?
I think we're looking at the wrong end of the horse.

TOPPER....TOPPER...TOPPER.... Its monday again:hammerhead:

robro1102
08-22-2011, 11:44 AM
How about checking the engine oil before starting a thread ?
I think we're looking at the wrong end of the horse.

I certainy deserve that comment. I just can't believe I ran it without oil. I never had any sign of it running hot or leaking or anything. That being said, I must face reality.

This is a Kohler Courage 21 HP SV610-0020. If I locked it up, please answer probably this last question. Do people rebuild these types of engines, or is it just not feasible to mess with? If I got one of those "pullers" mentioned above, I think it is obvious I would not know what to do with it.

Can the community "small engine repair guy" do this type of work, or are we talking a true ENGINE SHOP?

Thanks for all of you help.

piston slapper
08-22-2011, 12:34 PM
The courage engines are a low end engine.....Pretty inexpensive to replace ( compared to the Command Engines $1200-$2000)

Put a pipewrench or breakerbar on the crankshaft, and see if you can get the engine to free up. If it does, put oil in it and see if it runs.

Restrorob
08-22-2011, 02:04 PM
Maybe you should have followed this advice;

if you can not move the flywheel, that is bad you might want to take it to a mechanic


And I should have.......http://forums.vr-zone.com/f/gif/zip.gif......and......http://www.floridatrailriders.org/ftr_forums/images/smilies/biker_h4h.gif

piston slapper
08-22-2011, 03:20 PM
How about checking the engine oil before starting a thread ?
I think we're looking at the wrong end of the horse.

I certainy deserve that comment. I just can't believe I ran it without oil. I never had any sign of it running hot or leaking or anything. That being said, I must face reality.

This is a Kohler Courage 21 HP SV610-0020. If I locked it up, please answer probably this last question. Do people rebuild these types of engines, or is it just not feasible to mess with? If I got one of those "pullers" mentioned above, I think it is obvious I would not know what to do with it.

Can the community "small engine repair guy" do this type of work, or are we talking a true ENGINE SHOP?

Thanks for all of you help.

Robro....Sorry about the "Slap".....You didnt deserve it.....:waving:
Guess Im just like all the other mower techs on Monday mornings in the middle of August.:wall

I realize if you were a mechanic, we probably wouldnt be having this conversation. If you can get the engine freed up, it might go back to work. Unfortunately, it would probably be cheaper to replace than rebuild.

Good Luck,

SLAPPER

robro1102
08-22-2011, 04:06 PM
Thanks to all of you for your help and encouragement. I have tough skin, so no problems here. I think it is great that you guys are willing to steer someone in the right direction.

It is now in the hands of someone who works on these types of things and I should get some kind of report later this afternoon, and I want to go on record saying that i think there is still hope. I shut the engine off (it did not die on its own), so even if there was no oil, I just don't think it could have gotten hot enough to totally blow the engine.

I promise to report either way. Thanks again.

Floridalandcare
08-22-2011, 05:06 PM
Id venture to say that a magnet came off the fly-wheel and is lodged between the stator . I had this happen on a pressure washer of mine.

rwaters
08-22-2011, 05:55 PM
Id venture to say that a magnet came off the fly-wheel and is lodged between the stator . I had this happen on a pressure washer of mine.

thats what restro was shooting for, still a shot that that is the problem. I had one come in without oil that the safety system was not allowing the engine to start, poured oil in fixed the safety and the engine is doing just fine 5 years later. He is better about getting it serviced now though:laugh:

ed2hess
08-22-2011, 06:41 PM
Short blocks works in this situaton if the heads are okay. Might get that down as low as $900 if you do the work. I did mine this winter not real bad. You do have to get that flywheel off.

IRRITECH
08-22-2011, 10:43 PM
Like Topsites said, pull the plugs and try to turn it. If that doesn't work then just start pulling the whole thing apart. At this point what's it going to hurt and it wil give you a better understanding of the internals of an engine.

Snyder's Lawn Inc
08-22-2011, 11:16 PM
Thanks to all of you for your help and encouragement. I have tough skin, so no problems here. I think it is great that you guys are willing to steer someone in the right direction.

It is now in the hands of someone who works on these types of things and I should get some kind of report later this afternoon, and I want to go on record saying that i think there is still hope. I shut the engine off (it did not die on its own), so even if there was no oil, I just don't think it could have gotten hot enough to totally blow the engine.

I promise to report either way. Thanks again.

You learn hard way I know you will be checking oil everyday from now on

topsites
08-22-2011, 11:36 PM
Here's your problem, now you have to pray because unfortunately when an engine runs low on oil it doesn't seize immediately,
matter of fact if there was any oil in the engine it can run for some hours, be shut down, have the oil changed....
Then seize three days later yet run good up to that point.

That's been my experience.
But it's still worth a shot, because you don't know until all is truly lost.

Generally speaking rebuilds are only worth it for the experienced mechanics who have a lot of time on their hands.
The short answer is replacing it costs about as much and now you have a brand new engine with a warranty.

piston slapper
08-23-2011, 10:25 AM
You guys are missing the point.....

A NEW Kohler Courage engine costs about $500, If you have an internal failure, its cheaper to replace, unless you can fix it yourself.

robro1102
08-23-2011, 11:37 AM
As promised... It looks like I am an idiot, and have thrown a rod. The mechanic took the flywheel off and freed it up. He says that you can turn the engine so far, and then it sticks. He told me that if I get a short block, he could get me back running.

Any ideas on where and how much? I don't see the full engine for $500 anywhere. I would be willing if it is out there. What do you look for to find the short block? I'm not having much luck tracking that down. Thanks.

piston slapper
08-23-2011, 12:13 PM
Found a 20 hp Courage (not much difference) for $499
http://www.brandnewengines.com/SV710-0019.aspx

Look around..just google the engine...

robro1102
08-23-2011, 12:57 PM
Could you guys look and see if this would easily be replaced? I don't mind giving up 1 HP if everything else is a natural fit. Thanks for you help.


SV610

Cylinders Single
Cooling Air
Engine 4-cycle, gasoline, OHV, single-cylinder, air-cooled, vertical shaft, full pressure lubrication with full-flow filter, aluminum head and crankcase with cast iron cylinder liner.
Rated Horsepower 21 hp (15.7 kW) @ 3600 RPM
Displacement 36.4 cu. in. (597 cc)
Bore x Stroke 3.7 in. (94 mm) x 3.4 in. (86 mm)
Torque 38.1 lbs. ft. (51.6 Nm) @ 2200
Compression Ratio 8.5:1
Oil Capacity 1.6 quarts (1.5 l)
Lubrication Full pressure w/full-flow filter
Dimensions
Weight 79 lbs (35.8 kg)
Dimensions (LxWxH) 19.3" x 16.5" x 12.9"
General Information
Shaft Type Vertical

SV710

Cylinders Single
Cooling Air
Engine 4-cycle, gasoline, OHV, single-cylinder, air-cooled, vertical shaft, full pressure lubrication with full-flow filter, aluminum head and crankcase with cast iron cylinder liner.
Rated Horsepower 15 hp (11.2 kW) @ 3600 RPM
Displacement 36.4 cu. in. (597 cc)
Bore x Stroke 3.7 in. (94 mm) x 3.4 in. (86 mm)
Torque 27 lbs. ft. (36.6 Nm) @ 2200
Compression Ratio 8.5:1
Oil Capacity 1.6 quarts (1.5 l)
Lubrication Full pressure w/full-flow filter


Dimensions
Weight 79 lbs (35.8 kg)
Dimensions (LxWxH) 19.4" x 16.4" x 12.9"


General Information
Shaft Type Vertical

robro1102
08-23-2011, 12:58 PM
Scratch that last request. The HP is way off.

robro1102
08-23-2011, 01:05 PM
Alright, Piston has graciously offered a 1 HP downgrade replacement. I can get a brand new SV610-3211 for $795. I can get a brand new SV710-0019 for $500. I could get my short block for $590. I don't mind giving up 1 HP if it will just fit right back in without any major re-work. Do the specs below suggest that it would be easy to swap them out?


SV710

Cylinders Twin
Cooling Air
Engine 4-cycle, gasoline, OHV, twin-cylinder, air-cooled, vertical shaft, full pressure lubrication with full-flow filter, aluminum head and crankcase with cast iron cylinder liners.
Rated Horsepower 20 hp (14.9 kW) @ 3600 RPM
Displacement 44 cu. in. (725 cc)
Bore x Stroke 3.3 in. (83 mm) x 2.6 in. (67 mm)
Torque 38.4 lbs. ft (52.1 Nm) @ 2200
Compression Ratio 9:1
Oil Capacity 2.0 quarts (1.9 l)
Lubrication Pressure w/full-flow filter
Dimensions
Weight 91 lbs (41.5 kg)
Dimensions (LxWxH) 18.5" x 17.8" x 13.4"
General Information
Shaft Type Vertical



SV610

Cylinders Single
Cooling Air
Engine 4-cycle, gasoline, OHV, single-cylinder, air-cooled, vertical shaft, full pressure lubrication with full-flow filter, aluminum head and crankcase with cast iron cylinder liner.
Rated Horsepower 21 hp (15.7 kW) @ 3600 RPM
Displacement 36.4 cu. in. (597 cc)
Bore x Stroke 3.7 in. (94 mm) x 3.4 in. (86 mm)
Torque 38.1 lbs. ft. (51.6 Nm) @ 2200
Compression Ratio 8.5:1
Oil Capacity 1.6 quarts (1.5 l)
Lubrication Full pressure w/full-flow filter

Dimensions
Weight 79 lbs (35.8 kg)
Dimensions (LxWxH) 19.3" x 16.5" x 12.9"
General Information
Shaft Type Vertical

robro1102
08-23-2011, 04:16 PM
Is there any way to know for sure that this will fit on my mower? Toro Z5000 Model 74370 - Made in 2008

Restrorob
08-23-2011, 07:24 PM
There's three things that need to be compared between these two engines....

1) PTO crank diameter and length along with bolt hole size.
2) Charging system amp output.
3) Throttle/choke control configuration.

None of these things are listed in your above info, Call and talk to the company you want to get the engine from. They should be able to tell you if they'll interchange.....

rwaters
08-24-2011, 10:24 AM
Is there any way to know for sure that this will fit on my mower? Toro Z5000 Model 74370 - Made in 2008

we would need your model and spec to tell you that. I have only seen your model.

topsites
08-24-2011, 11:04 AM
Don't forget...
4) Who is replacing the engine.

It's all good so long that's you.
But if you have someone else working on it I would clear this up with them,
if you are thinking of buying your own engine that might work, or it might be
worth it to just pay the mechanic's shortblock $590?

You see, they may or may not make money on the part, they may or may not care
whose engine goes on and then they may or may not care who buys the engine itself,
but if you have a mechanic doing the actual repair I would likely consult with them first.
Yes, long before buying anything...

rwaters
08-24-2011, 12:05 PM
Don't forget...
4) Who is replacing the engine.

It's all good so long that's you.
But if you have someone else working on it I would clear this up with them,
if you are thinking of buying your own engine that might work, or it might be
worth it to just pay the mechanic's shortblock $590?

You see, they may or may not make money on the part, they may or may not care
whose engine goes on and then they may or may not care who buys the engine itself,
but if you have a mechanic doing the actual repair I would likely consult with them first.
Yes, long before buying anything...

he does have a good point.

piston slapper
08-24-2011, 06:00 PM
$590 for the shortblock. How much for the labor?
A new shortblock has a 90 day warranty. A new engine has 2 years.
Shouldn't be a tough choice.
Posted via Mobile Device

rwaters
08-24-2011, 07:14 PM
$590 for the shortblock. How much for the labor?
A new shortblock has a 90 day warranty. A new engine has 2 years.
Shouldn't be a tough choice.
Posted via Mobile Device

I was talking about giving the mechanic a chance to get the engine. Most mechanics would rather replace the engine then do a shortblock.