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ecoguy
08-24-2011, 09:52 PM
Is the compost you use organic? My guess is no. What about the natural fertilizers/meals -they GMO free? Probably not. How about Milogranite? Totally natural? Nope.

My guess is those who call themselves organic really mean safe. Immediately bare foot safe for people, places, things - even microbes. I've also used the word organic but I think safe is a much more helpful word. People automatically know what you mean, and unless your lying, there's very little grey area. Eventually safe or - give it a few hours safe, isn't safe. It's either safe right now or it isn't. Pretty black and white. Organic can be too...political plus it can actually be grey. How many times have you seen Organic on a product that isn't safe? Talk about confusing. Same goes with natural and eco. Safe lawns. Paul Tukey and Co. had it right with that one. Plus, it's a lot easier to decide what to use in your program.

Agree?

phasthound
08-24-2011, 10:13 PM
I agree that the term organic is misunderstood, misinterpreted and over used.
The term safe is not much better. I've been struggling with this for awhile and have decided to replace "Organic" with "Environmental" in our company name.

Smallaxe
08-25-2011, 09:48 AM
'Environmentally safe' is the same as being, NOT environmentally dangerous No real difference if it is immediately or a half hour after drying...

ICT Bill
08-25-2011, 09:58 AM
Is the compost you use organic? My guess is no. What about the natural fertilizers/meals -they GMO free? Probably not. How about Milogranite? Totally natural? Nope.

My guess is those who call themselves organic really mean safe. Immediately bare foot safe for people, places, things - even microbes. I've also used the word organic but I think safe is a much more helpful word. People automatically know what you mean, and unless your lying, there's very little grey area. Eventually safe or - give it a few hours safe, isn't safe. It's either safe right now or it isn't. Pretty black and white. Organic can be too...political plus it can actually be grey. How many times have you seen Organic on a product that isn't safe? Talk about confusing. Same goes with natural and eco. Safe lawns. Paul Tukey and Co. had it right with that one. Plus, it's a lot easier to decide what to use in your program.

Agree?

In the US you cannot use the word "safe" on a fertilizer/pesticide/soil amendment label.

Safelawns is defunct

ecoguy
08-25-2011, 10:17 PM
In the US you cannot use the word "safe" on a fertilizer/pesticide/soil amendment label.

Safelawns is defunct

Hey Bill. Is this because of the misuse of the word safe?

NattyLawn
08-25-2011, 11:17 PM
Hey Bill. Is this because of the misuse of the word safe?

Nothing is 100% SAFE.

Smallaxe
08-26-2011, 06:32 AM
I don't think the word 'safe' was ever absolute... it is out politcal correctness that's has placed us in a maximum security mode... the only real 'unsafe' thing about lawn chemicals is , stupidity... :)

ChiTownAmateur
08-26-2011, 01:55 PM
Almost all compost is made from organic materials, plants and/or animals that are rotting and breaking down. Why would you suggest that compost is not organic, I'm not following I don't think.

Natural-state is certainly a very different point, perhaps only water is applied to a lawn in it's natural state...and then again only in the case where someone irrigates from a well or a river and is not using treated water.

Just because American society decided to try and rebrand the term "organic" to mean natural and/or undoctored or modifed doesn't change the fact that organic is just that, a carbon based life form.

phasthound
08-26-2011, 02:01 PM
Almost all compost is made from organic materials, plants and/or animals that are rotting and breaking down. Why would you suggest that compost is not organic, I'm not following I don't think.

Natural-state is certainly a very different point, perhaps only water is applied to a lawn in it's natural state...and then again only in the case where someone irrigates from a well or a river and is not using treated water.

Just because American society decided to try and rebrand the term "organic" to mean natural and/or undoctored or modifed doesn't change the fact that organic is just that, a carbon based life form.

One example of compost that should not be used is any that included clippings from turf that was treated with herbicides that do not breakdown during the decomposition of organic matter.

gunsnroses
08-26-2011, 02:53 PM
Good luck with it. Is radon organic? Safe? The only point with this cut and paste is to show how confusing it is. Rock is not true organic anyway, but this is just an example. If you skip the reading, at least check the last sentence.





Aside from fluorine pollution, Naturally Occurring Radioactive Materials (NORM) is the major concern of most government environmental agencies regulating pollution and phosphorgypsum waste from the manufacture of phosphoric acid.

Again, depending on geographic location where the PR is mined, it can contain from 50 - 200 ppm of uranium. PR is the major source of 'yellow cake' (uranium oxide) for nuclear weapons and the nuclear power industry.

PR is notorious for its radioactive constituents. The risks it poses are most threatening to people who come into direct contact with it - eg. organic growers. However, organic growing organisations seem to be oblivious to these health hazards - despite the information having been available for many years.

Where there is uranium in natural rock formations, there will also be all its carcinogenic decay rate products; such as radium, radon, radioactive lead, polonium, thorium, etc.

There are also toxic metal contaminants such as beryllium, manganese, arsenic, lead, mercury, cadmium and vanadium.

The tailings from phosphoric acid production (phosphate fertiliser), phosphorgypsum, are so radioactive that they are not allowed to be used for wall-board or road beds in the US and Canada - because it is considered a radiation hazard. However, organic growers are allowed to treat their fields with the raw, unprocessed product once every six years, with none of the contaminants processed out.
http://www.epa.gov/radiation/neshaps/subpartr/more.htm
http://www.efma.org/Publications/BAT%202000/Bat04/section04.asp

Taking a closer look at this 'natural' PR mix, we find for example polonium-210:
One particle of polonium-210 gives off 5,000 times more alpha radiation than the same amount of radium. Damage occurs in the body from complete tissue absorption of the energy of the alpha particle. Polonium-210 can be carcinogenic to people exposed to more than 0.03 microcuries (6.8 trillionths of a gram). Polonium-210 has a half-life of about 138 days.(There are also high levels of Radium and Polonium- 210 in granite dust, which is used by organic farmers is some parts of the world as a soil conditioner).

Half Life: Half of the polonium gives off intense alpha radiation for 138 days until it turns into regular lead and becomes stable. However, half the polonium still remains, emitting alpha radiation for another 138 days; then a quarter of the original amount, and so on and so on.

Polonium is found in tobacco grown with phosphate fertilisers. Studies have suggested that radioactive polonium may be the primary cause of smoking-related cancers.

Polonium is carried throughout the body in the blood. It has been linked to more soft-tissue cancers than bone cancers; typical sites are the liver, spleen and kidney.

Radon is also given off from PR and ground granite. Radon is second only to smoking as the leading cause of lung cancer in the UK.

Radon is an important environmental hazard, due to its release of alpha particle radiation. It has a half life of 3.8 days.

Radon is also soluble in water.
http://www.physics.umaine.edu/radiation/radon.htm
http://energy.cr.usgs.gov/radon/georadon/3.html
http://www.epa.gov/iaq/radon/pubs/physic.html

Radon, in and of itself, is not a carcinogen. It is the decay products of radon that are the problem.

If organic growers are using PR or ground granite, they are being exposed to these radioactive elements, especially radon. It is important to note that these do not simply dissipate from the product in a few days, months or years - these products will emit radon for many thousands of years.

ChiTownAmateur
08-26-2011, 06:11 PM
Organic is a term with very clear and defined limits, even though it has been sort of hijacked as a buzzword these days to mean many other things.

Safe however is a relative term and is used generally to mean "not thought to harm life forms". However as everyone well knows, what was once considered "safe" is often later determined to be far from it, such as asbestos, DDT or Diaznon.

phasthound
08-26-2011, 08:17 PM
Organic is a term with very clear and defined limits, even though it has been sort of hijacked as a buzzword these days to mean many other things.

Safe however is a relative term and is used generally to mean "not thought to harm life forms". However as everyone well knows, what was once considered "safe" is often later determined to be far from it, such as asbestos, DDT or Diaznon.

Chi,

There are many different interpretations of the term organic, it's not really that clear and defined.

As you stated, safe is a relative term. These sites show vastly different viewpoints on the safety of pesticides.

http://www.beyondpesticides.org/
http://www.pestfacts.org/

ICT Bill
08-26-2011, 10:26 PM
Hey Bill. Is this because of the misuse of the word safe?

no the thinking of the label police, I'm sorry the department of Ag is that implying "safe" on the label means that other manufacturers are not "safe" is what I have been told

it seems like a circular argument to me

Smallaxe
08-27-2011, 07:59 AM
no the thinking of the label police, I'm sorry the department of Ag is that implying "safe" on the label means that other manufacturers are not "safe" is what I have been told

it seems like a circular argument to me

We are the intelligent lawncare alternative...
The Ag Dept. thinks everyone else's stupidity is implied...

Stupid B'crats...

humble1
09-01-2011, 06:23 AM
Is the compost you use organic? My guess is no. What about the natural fertilizers/meals -they GMO free? Probably not. How about Milogranite? Totally natural? Nope.

My guess is those who call themselves organic really mean safe. Immediately bare foot safe for people, places, things - even microbes. I've also used the word organic but I think safe is a much more helpful word. People automatically know what you mean, and unless your lying, there's very little grey area. Eventually safe or - give it a few hours safe, isn't safe. It's either safe right now or it isn't. Pretty black and white. Organic can be too...political plus it can actually be grey. How many times have you seen Organic on a product that isn't safe? Talk about confusing. Same goes with natural and eco. Safe lawns. Paul Tukey and Co. had it right with that one. Plus, it's a lot easier to decide what to use in your program.

Agree?

Uranium is organic and asbestos is all natural.
Posted via Mobile Device

ICT Bill
09-01-2011, 08:27 AM
Uranium is organic and asbestos is all natural.
Posted via Mobile Device

There are no guidelines for "organic" in landscaping, there is no government body like the USDA or EPA that regulate which ingredients are acceptable or not. We base our "organic" ingredients on the EPA standard of "minimum risk pesticides", these are typically plant based products like cedarwood oil, garlic, castor oil, etc. and the USDA list of organic ingredients use in organic farming

for now that is the best you can do

Smallaxe
09-02-2011, 12:28 PM
I still blieve that common sense has more validity that gov't regs anyways... even organic produced is loaded with pesticides because they grow it next to aerial sprayed fields... sometimes right in the middle of these fields, but by the 'letter ofthe law', they're organic...

bradtf
09-13-2011, 01:30 PM
I still blieve that common sense has more validity that gov't regs anyways... even organic produced is loaded with pesticides because they grow it next to aerial sprayed fields... sometimes right in the middle of these fields, but by the 'letter ofthe law', they're organic...

Up here, to be certified organic, all the neighboring properties have to sign agreements to be organic and not spray as well. My buddy has a 5 acres surrounded by a certified organic farm that grows feed/hay… he was asked to sign off saying he wouldn’t spray his fields so that the neighbors farm could get organic status.

Smallaxe
09-14-2011, 03:27 AM
Up here, to be certified organic, all the neighboring properties have to sign agreements to be organic and not spray as well. My buddy has a 5 acres surrounded by a certified organic farm that grows feed/hay… he was asked to sign off saying he wouldn’t spray his fields so that the neighbors farm could get organic status.

Not a big fan of 'certification' by bureaucrats, but that is not a bad policy... I always relate the story of 5A. of 'organic' carrots surrounded by 500A. of potatoes... and how those carrots were the most contaminted carrots in the store, because doing anything other than subjecting them to what potatoes goes through is an improvement...

ChiTownAmateur
09-15-2011, 05:44 PM
My 2c again is that organic simply means "from life" and is not a term that should be used in trying to describe what I think is better termed "natural"

Over the eons that people have grown crops and looking back people view what they did as "natural", because they didn't have "unnaturally occuring substances" to use such as pesticides, herbicides, synthetic ferts etc.

When ICT bill makes compost tea, he is farming a naturally occuring organism and multiplying it, then amending it into soil which is a "natural" farming method that harkens back to the old days...it's something that could and was probably done for centuries by some. Whether they used compost...or compost tea is not really the point. The fact that is occurs NATURALLY and uses ORGANIC material...live organisms.

In all honesty what is usually meant is simply that it is grown using the old techniques as far as everything EXCEPT the machinery used. The machinery simply moves or modifies the turf, soil or other elements, it does not change them or alter them.

americanlawn
09-20-2011, 09:18 PM
" Natural organic" products:

1) "can harbor bacteria"

2) "can cause sickness to humans & animals"

3) "attract insects"

The above are merely 3 of over a dozen "scientific" reasons why we don't buy what they're "shoveling".

Whenever we run across an "organic person", we tell them to go fly a kite, cuz we find it best to follow the most up-to-date research from land grant universities. Call me stupid, but ......... :walking:

JCResources
09-20-2011, 11:49 PM
I understand you thought about the land grant universities because they are considered "the authority" by most people in ag/horticulture.

Let's not forget that increasingly as their budgets shrink they have to depend on private sources of funding for their research. Syngenta, Dupont and Monsanto are doling out millions to these institutions. You can't tell me they don't have some say so over how the research is done.

Smallaxe
09-21-2011, 05:22 AM
:laugh: The politically correct, tell the Uni.s what to say, big Pharma tells the Uni.s what to say, just like the Monsanto&Co. tell the Uni.s what to say and if it is printed in the newspaper, Time Mag. or talked about on TV then it is legitimate fact...

Kind of like: Communism helps the poor, Global warming, pedophilia is OK, evolution, chemotherapy, water is 'life-support', and, on & on it goes...

The only real problem is, we are not capable of thinking and discerning, we are all like sheep following our master's voice... :laugh:

Smallaxe
09-21-2011, 05:31 AM
" Natural organic" products:

1) "can harbor bacteria"

2) "can cause sickness to humans & animals"

3) "attract insects"

The above are merely 3 of over a dozen "scientific" reasons why we don't buy what they're "shoveling".

Whenever we run across an "organic person", we tell them to go fly a kite, cuz we find it best to follow the most up-to-date research from land grant universities. Call me stupid, but ......... :walking:

There is an expression about, throwing the baby out with the bathwater, which focuses in on the idea that, something may not be 100% bad...

Bacteria and other microbes are everywhere all the time and they are needed in the soil just as much as they are needed in your body...
The trick is to build soil structure and healthy turf, by promoting the beneficial Microbes in your botany and get away from lawn disease that is so prevalent in standard practice...

Botany has dozens of reasons why, our 5-7 app programs are counter-productive and only one as to why we continue the practice... money... :)

ICT Bill
09-21-2011, 09:10 AM
" Natural organic" products:

1) "can harbor bacteria"

2) "can cause sickness to humans & animals"

3) "attract insects"

The above are merely 3 of over a dozen "scientific" reasons why we don't buy what they're "shoveling".

Whenever we run across an "organic person", we tell them to go fly a kite, cuz we find it best to follow the most up-to-date research from land grant universities. Call me stupid, but ......... :walking:

reminds me of the only heckler we had the first year we did the GIE show, he walked by and said "organics! what can you kill with organics?" I replied "we don't kill things, we grow things"