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xtremelawn
09-04-2011, 12:24 AM
Does anyone use liquid aerify? If so did it work well?

Thanks

Smallaxe
09-04-2011, 07:48 AM
That question has been asked a lot lately... what do you expect it to do?

ICT Bill
09-04-2011, 08:38 AM
That question has been asked a lot lately... what do you expect it to do?

Smallaxe, you actually asked a very profound question

what would the desired results be from a liquid aeration product???

I would think looser soil, but "how would you ever know"
or do you want more air down there, again "how could you ever know"
or do you want better rooting, again HCYEK

and the other question we always get asked "so...how long does it last?"

but I guess you have to answer the first question to answer the second one

Smallaxe
09-04-2011, 09:06 AM
Smallaxe, you actually asked a very profound question

what would the desired results be from a liquid aeration product???

I would think looser soil, but "how would you ever know"
or do you want more air down there, again "how could you ever know"
or do you want better rooting, again HCYEK

and the other question we always get asked "so...how long does it last?"

but I guess you have to answer the first question to answer the second one

That is why the stuff sells so well...

I have a small area that has to be hand watered right next to the house so I put the water from the hose down as quickly as possible... It formed a lot of puddles, so I brought out dishsoap with laurate sufide, or whatever, and squirted it over the patch of grass...

first there were little puddles of foam, then a little less puddles, then no puddles...

So from dishsoap one can know... this wasn't a compaction problem as much as it was a hydrophobic surface problem caused by puddling...

Kiril
09-06-2011, 11:48 AM
That is why the stuff sells so well...

I have a small area that has to be hand watered right next to the house so I put the water from the hose down as quickly as possible... It formed a lot of puddles, so I brought out dishsoap with laurate sufide, or whatever, and squirted it over the patch of grass...

first there were little puddles of foam, then a little less puddles, then no puddles...

So from dishsoap one can know... this wasn't a compaction problem as much as it was a hydrophobic surface problem caused by puddling...

What is the steady state infiltration rate of the soil in that area? Without that information, at a minimum, your "experiment" is worthless.

Smallaxe
09-07-2011, 06:56 AM
What is the steady state infiltration rate of the soil in that area? Without that information, at a minimum, your "experiment" is worthless.

The state infiltration rate was probably never taken of the topsoil mix, sitting on top of rotten granite, sitting on top of the orginal blow sand that makes up the hill... Without the man-made upper layers, the soil wouldn't hold water for the 15 seconds of shining, no matter how much your poured onto it... :)

I wasn't really experimenting, just applying some soap to breakup surface tension a bit...

ICT Bill
09-07-2011, 10:39 AM
What is the steady state infiltration rate of the soil in that area? Without that information, at a minimum, your "experiment" is worthless.

is there a standard measurement for this, like gallons per hour? and how would you measure it? just curious

DUSTYCEDAR
09-07-2011, 12:55 PM
what is in the product? a surfactant?

Kiril
09-07-2011, 01:11 PM
is there a standard measurement for this, like gallons per hour? and how would you measure it? just curious

cm/hr or in/hr ...... use an infiltrometer (various designs depending on required data resolution and what you want to measure). The measurement is a measure of a soils hydraulic conductivity .... either saturated (steady state) or unsaturated (much more complex issue).

Smallaxe
09-07-2011, 09:28 PM
cm/hr or in/hr ...... use an infiltrometer (various designs depending on required data resolution and what you want to measure). The measurement is a measure of a soils hydraulic conductivity .... either saturated (steady state) or unsaturated (much more complex issue).

That formula, does not address surface tension, i.e. "Runoff" on a hydrophobic surface... or am I nmissing something???

RigglePLC
09-07-2011, 10:03 PM
The advantage of the "liquid aeration" is that it is easy and cheap. And you don't need an aerator. You may have the chance to re-introduce friendly bacteria, mycorhizae or micronutrients. The correct fungi and actinomycetes cause the soil to form aggregates (clumps) improving tilth, aeration and infiltration.

Here is the info on the perc test. Used to assess water infiltration rate. (Dig a hole, add water, and time how long it takes for the water level to drop two inches.)

Smallaxe
09-07-2011, 10:11 PM
The trick is...these fungi, bacterias etc. will grow naturally in a properly managed environment... the biggest problem we have with soil strcture is human stupidity...

just sayin'... :)

nepatsfan
09-07-2011, 10:16 PM
:dizzy:Does my fridge light stay on when the door is shut:confused:

Smallaxe
09-07-2011, 10:43 PM
:dizzy:Does my fridge light stay on when the door is shut:confused:

Does the Cerebral Cortex die when the mind goes to sleep and dream??? :confused:

Remember the TV thing of "Welcome Back Kotter" and one of the Sweat-hogs always said, "I'm so confused."

Fortunately, most things about our common existance are easily explained by common sense... plant life needs a lot of what we do... minus the emotional BS... :)

Kiril
09-08-2011, 12:45 AM
That formula, does not address surface tension, i.e. "Runoff" on a hydrophobic surface... or am I nmissing something???

You are missing something.

Kiril
09-08-2011, 12:47 AM
Here is the info on the perc test. Used to assess water infiltration rate. (Dig a hole, add water, and time how long it takes for the water level to drop two inches.)

............... No. There is a good reason for infiltrometers ..... at least get a basic one of you need to determine that value.

Kiril
09-08-2011, 12:48 AM
:dizzy:Does my fridge light stay on when the door is shut:confused:

Why don't you climb on inside and find out. :laugh:

ted putnam
09-08-2011, 01:35 AM
A couple of years ago I experimented with a product called Turf 2 Max liquid aeration. While I had no scientific equipment to measure results or lack thereof, I could find or see no improvement in relief of soil compaction. It seemed to be "snake oil". Similar to many other products I see advertised. Overpriced and over rated. I think the price was so high because they knew you'd never be back to purchase more. Sounds great and looks great in theory but didn't seem to work in a real world situation. This was my experience.

Smallaxe
09-08-2011, 07:24 AM
A couple of years ago I experimented with a product called Turf 2 Max liquid aeration. While I had no scientific equipment to measure results or lack thereof, I could find or see no improvement in relief of soil compaction. It seemed to be "snake oil". Similar to many other products I see advertised. Overpriced and over rated. I think the price was so high because they knew you'd never be back to purchase more. Sounds great and looks great in theory but didn't seem to work in a real world situation. This was my experience.

It is supposed to build soil structure, by the activity of living organisms... most of what we do to lawns, is not only counterproductive to the plants themselves, but especially to the living soil... I imagine your CT bugs died shortly after the application... and if the snake oil included polymers, they were probably crushed into the wet clay by tractors/ztrs within hours of application....

Cultural practices are so important, but we only want a quick-fix... maybe that is what I should call the new company... Quick-Fix Lawncare... of course it never works... :)

Smallaxe
09-08-2011, 07:30 AM
You are missing something.

Oh well, I got the situation under control... puddled surfaces are now physically stirred up with compost and seed, and this will hopefully change the filtration enough at the surface to water the roots adequately...

I believe puddled sufaces are worse than real thatch, don't you??? :)

Kiril
09-08-2011, 09:55 AM
Oh well, I got the situation under control... puddled surfaces are now physically stirred up with compost and seed, and this will hopefully change the filtration enough at the surface to water the roots adequately...

I believe puddled sufaces are worse than real thatch, don't you??? :)

That depends on the soil you are dealing with.

While thatch may exhibit some hydrophobic properties on initial wetting, it is not like a water proof barrier.

Smallaxe
09-09-2011, 07:11 AM
That depends on the soil you are dealing with.

While thatch may exhibit some hydrophobic properties on initial wetting, it is not like a water proof barrier.

That is very true, becuz while aerating yesterday, I noticed that the soil plugs under the puddled areas were much drier that the plugs under the thatch areas... it wasn't always the case but generally so...

boisephc
10-01-2011, 09:11 AM
http://www.precisionlab.com/productSelect.pli?Parent=143-25

"A combination of nonionic surfactants that hydrate the soil and penetrate to provide deeper, more uniform water infiltration, Cascade Plus™ is used to prevent localized dry spot (LDS), correct hydrophobic soil conditions and provide firmer, faster playing surfaces under all conditions. "

manual aeration is relaxing. i also get a sense of satisfaction behind an aerator pulling large cores.

ODTC
10-03-2011, 12:46 PM
Soil surfactants have been used for years on golf courses. I consult with several superintendents who swear by the results and use them to treat LDS. It seems to me that liquid aerators are just soil surfactants with a different target audience. KaPre Exalt by LidoChem is a new one that is getting rave reviews from superintendents and lawn care guys alike. Do we not want them to work so that we can protect our precious core aeration $$$$$ that comes around every Fall and Spring? I make good money core aerating as well, but I've seen great results with KaPre Exalt in some test plots, for what it's worth. I would like to see some long-term studies and tests done. Granted, KaPre Exalt, Cascade, etc. don't claim to erase the need for core aeration like Aerify does. Golf courses still aerate like crazy. But let's not throw cold water on the entire discussion without really knowing how these products perform in the field.