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UKblue
09-15-2011, 06:48 PM
Is there a list of extractors in the industry? Have any of you made your own extractors?

ICT Bill
09-16-2011, 09:35 AM
Is there a list of extractors in the industry? Have any of you made your own extractors?

there is not a list that i know of

to what scale are you trying to extract, will you need thousands of gallons in a day (ag) or hundreds (landscaping). I extract very simply in my back yard with a five gallon bucket, add compost and vermi to water and stir for a couple of days. no air no food, it works for me

UKblue
09-16-2011, 03:02 PM
I would want to extract a couple hundred in a day. What extractors are out there? Is the only difference between extracted compost and compost tea the presence of food? If I took a AACT tea brewer, put in compost, but did not put in any food, would that be the same thing as an extracted compost tea?

Thanks, Bill.

NattyLawn
09-16-2011, 03:22 PM
I would want to extract a couple hundred in a day. What extractors are out there? Is the only difference between extracted compost and compost tea the presence of food? If I took a AACT tea brewer, put in compost, but did not put in any food, would that be the same thing as an extracted compost tea?

Thanks, Bill.

Off the top of my head, there are only a few that I know of:
Winslow T-2
Hronek extractor
Erath Earth

There are also some available from Australia and NZ. All of the one's mentioned above are pretty expensive.

Tim Wilson mentioned you can use his brewer to make an extract. You may want to contact him or check out his website: microbeorganics.com

Brewing AACT and LCE are similar, but the main differences are no food is added, and the method of getting the microbes off of the compost. AACT is a more gentle process while the LCE process is more "violent", typically using a higher water pressure to extract. In AACT you're also supplying food, where in LCE you're not, so you won't have the same microbial diversity you would in tea. Also, just using an AACT would result in much lower microbe counts.

ICT Bill
09-16-2011, 05:59 PM
Off the top of my head, there are only a few that I know of:
Winslow T-2
Hronek extractor
Erath Earth

There are also some available from Australia and NZ. All of the one's mentioned above are pretty expensive.

Tim Wilson mentioned you can use his brewer to make an extract. You may want to contact him or check out his website: microbeorganics.com

Brewing AACT and LCE are similar, but the main differences are no food is added, and the method of getting the microbes off of the compost. AACT is a more gentle process while the LCE process is more "violent", typically using a higher water pressure to extract. In AACT you're also supplying food, where in LCE you're not, so you won't have the same microbial diversity you would in tea. Also, just using an AACT would result in much lower microbe counts.

I have seen the Hronek extractor in action, it uses an auger to bring the compost up to high pressure jets that basically blast the microbes off of the compost substrate, the extract is screened as it falls into a holding tank. The compost extract has a shelf life of 2 to 3 weeks depending on how hot it is

some of the folks that use this one can make 1000 gallons in a couple of hours but it is typically used in ag, I think it runs 15 grand

Tim Wilson
09-16-2011, 08:40 PM
You could make LCE with my brewer but it would be a real pain in the butt because you'd have to fill and empty the bag about 3 to 4 times per 50 gallons. If you ran each bag 30 minutes that means 2 hours per 50 gallons. Pretty slow.

I see where Matt is coming from saying there would be higher microbial numbers in LCE but they would be mostly dormant.

NattyLawn
09-17-2011, 10:00 AM
You could make LCE with my brewer but it would be a real pain in the butt because you'd have to fill and empty the bag about 3 to 4 times per 50 gallons. If you ran each bag 30 minutes that means 2 hours per 50 gallons. Pretty slow.

I see where Matt is coming from saying there would be higher microbial numbers in LCE but they would be mostly dormant.

Tim,

The last line of my post should have read " Also, just using an AACT brewer for LCE would result in much lower microbe counts."

It looks like the edit did not go through.

Kiril
09-17-2011, 11:27 AM
In AACT you're also supplying food, where in LCE you're not, so you won't have the same microbial diversity you would in tea.

I don't see why this would necessarily lead to different levels of diversity, but rather different population densities.

NattyLawn
09-17-2011, 01:33 PM
I don't see why this would necessarily lead to different levels of diversity, but rather different population densities.

AACT brewing uses fine bubbles or an airlift to gently strip the microbes off of the compost. Food is also added to the tea. The microbes then multiply as they feed and then are fed upon by other microbes. The brew will go through nutrient cycling and you usually don't see protozoa until a little later in the brew (36-48 hours).

LCE, as I mentioned, uses higher water pressure (and more compost) to strip the microbes off the compost. You're then storing that liquid with no food, so there's no nutrient cycling taking place here. You're taking the fungi and bacteria and adding food before it goes into the soil, but you're hoping nutrient cycling takes place in the soil.

So in theory, you're not getting the protozoa in LCE that you would in AACT. Tim, help me out on any mistakes made above.

Kiril
09-18-2011, 08:28 AM
AACT brewing uses fine bubbles or an airlift to gently strip the microbes off of the compost. Food is also added to the tea. The microbes then multiply as they feed and then are fed upon by other microbes. The brew will go through nutrient cycling and you usually don't see protozoa until a little later in the brew (36-48 hours).

LCE, as I mentioned, uses higher water pressure (and more compost) to strip the microbes off the compost. You're then storing that liquid with no food, so there's no nutrient cycling taking place here. You're taking the fungi and bacteria and adding food before it goes into the soil, but you're hoping nutrient cycling takes place in the soil.

So in theory, you're not getting the protozoa in LCE that you would in AACT. Tim, help me out on any mistakes made above.

If your source of microbes is the compost, then you won't get higher diversity, but rather different population densities. The microbes, or potential for them, is still there regardless of them being multiplied or not.

NattyLawn
09-18-2011, 09:23 AM
If your source of microbes is the compost, then you won't get higher diversity, but rather different population densities. The microbes, or potential for them, is still there regardless of them being multiplied or not.

True, but in AACT you will have that diversity in the applied brew, while in LCE, you're looking at that potential in the soil, where that may or may not happen.

It's all in the food man!

Tim Wilson
09-18-2011, 10:50 AM
In a respect you are both correct. There is some possibility of mutation of microbial populations while making compost tea but this is not all that likely. Generally the species which multiply in CT must already be present in dormant form in the compost. Matt is correct that it is around the 36 hour period when protozoa seriously divide, however the initial cysts must be present in the compost to begin with. When using LCE one is counting on this taking place after application.

When using microbial concoctions, unless listed on the label it is very unlikely that protozoa cysts will be present.

It is primarily protozoa which cycle nutrients.

Kiril
09-18-2011, 09:55 PM
True, but in AACT you will have that diversity in the applied brew, while in LCE, you're looking at that potential in the soil, where that may or may not happen.

It's all in the food man!

Curious if any has done a field applied efficacy test yet on either brew method? If your soil can't support protozoa, then you have far bigger problems than whether or not you are supplying live protozoa vs. dormant.

NattyLawn
09-18-2011, 11:20 PM
Curious if any has done a field applied efficacy test yet on either brew method? If your soil can't support protozoa, then you have far bigger problems than whether or not you are supplying live protozoa vs. dormant.

Kiril, this is why people hate you on these boards. You're such a joke. How much tea or LCE have you brewed....EVER? My guess is ZERO. So give it up..
Please...

Kiril
09-19-2011, 12:08 AM
Natty, it is a valid question and observation which I have brought up before without any satisfactory answers. It doesn't matter if I have brewed 100 million gallons of tea or none. I don't understand why you don't find field applied efficacy important? FYI, I have done LCE, not ACT (strictly speaking) and this isn't a matter of have you brewed or how much have you brewed or not, but rather a matter of science .... which I believe I am qualified to comment on ..... don't you?

ICT Bill
09-19-2011, 09:00 AM
Natty, it is a valid question and observation which I have brought up before without any satisfactory answers. It doesn't matter if I have brewed 100 million gallons of tea or none. I don't understand why you don't find field applied efficacy important? FYI, I have done LCE, not ACT (strictly speaking) and this isn't a matter of have you brewed or how much have you brewed or not, but rather a matter of science .... which I believe I am qualified to comment on ..... don't you?

It is more a matter of scaling for your customer base, there are 100's if not 1000's of farmers, landscapers, golf courses, colleges, sports turf folks that are brewing or extracting compost to be used for their uses, once you get over the huge learning curve, almost all have good to great success keeping color, density and the have healthy plants on their sites, which is the basic premise of the application.

I find in general that you can brew tea and keep somewhere around 100 customers happy, once you get to 250 or 1000 customers brewing tea logistically is very difficult. you can extract enough tea in 30 minutes first thing in the morning to keep your crews working for the entire day, if you extract a bunch of it on one day and store it in a vessel you will have enough for the week as it has a shelf life, not the same for brewed teas

Now whether there is a science based study from any of these folks I have no idea, but if it ain't broke why fix it

Kiril
09-19-2011, 10:05 AM
It is more a matter of scaling for your customer base, there are 100's if not 1000's of farmers, landscapers, golf courses, colleges, sports turf folks that are brewing or extracting compost to be used for their uses, once you get over the huge learning curve, almost all have good to great success keeping color, density and the have healthy plants on their sites, which is the basic premise of the application.

Is the basic premise here about making a weak liquid fertilizer or a microbial rich solution for soil inoculation and/or foliar disease control? Without some type of baseline and post application testing/verification, seems to me many of the results that people see are more likely a result of the nutrients being applied with the tea and any potential improvement in nutrient cycling of existing OM is unknown.

This is really no different than what you see when you topdress compost, an relatively fast visual response to the quick release nutrients in the compost. Add some irrigation with a simple food like molasses (or not) to your topdress and you have just made some tea.

Now certainly one would expect some increase in nutrient turnover of existing OM as a result of a tea application, but how much? Can it (has it) been quantified or at least estimated using scientifically valid methodology? One of the major selling points of a tea is increased/better nutrient cycling of a sites OM .... correct? I am merely asking here (as I have before) has some type field applied efficacy been established for the different types of tea?

There is no need to make the volume/labor/cost argument here .... I am well aware of the reasons for using tea vs. compost, assuming there is sufficient OM already on site.

I find in general that you can brew tea and keep somewhere around 100 customers happy, once you get to 250 or 1000 customers brewing tea logistically is very difficult. you can extract enough tea in 30 minutes first thing in the morning to keep your crews working for the entire day, if you extract a bunch of it on one day and store it in a vessel you will have enough for the week as it has a shelf life, not the same for brewed teas

Now whether there is a science based study from any of these folks I have no idea, but if it ain't broke why fix it

If it ain't broke? I don't understand this line of reasoning? If one does not establish a sites soil is in need of microbial inoculation or you are trying to establish some type of foliar disease control, then how do you know if it is broke to begin with? Nature has done well without our interference or manipulation for millennium. So given that, wouldn't the best course of action be to (re)establish the natural order then leave it alone? We are talking about landscapes here, not Ag.

Tim Wilson
09-19-2011, 01:23 PM
Kiril; I believe you do have a valid question. I have read some studies evaluating the efficacy of CT on growth levels but I'm not sure, I've seen studies measuring OM degradation rates as a result of using CT. I did use it successfully in a greenhouse setting for years but that is hardly a quantifying trial. You are correct that once one has obtained a healthy microbial population supported by sufficient organic matter, one should no longer require microbial inoculations, including CT. I have seen this born out as well but again, not something publish worthy.

If one has sufficient compost, there is not much need for CT unless for a kick start as you have mentioned and yes this can also be attained with diluted molasses. I did seem to reverse some sort of fungal pathogen in my lawn recently by applying 'lots' of ACT.

PS. My ACT does not contain nutrients (besides residual)

Kiril
09-19-2011, 01:35 PM
Tim,

When you get a chance could you PM me those study cites? Also, I would be interested in seeing the results of a lab nutrient analysis (macros and micros) of different types of tea if you have access to those or know where they can be obtained. I don't believe I have ever seen a full nutrient analysis of any tea, short of label requirements of bottled products.

Tim Wilson
09-21-2011, 07:00 PM
Tim,

When you get a chance could you PM me those study cites? Also, I would be interested in seeing the results of a lab nutrient analysis (macros and micros) of different types of tea if you have access to those or know where they can be obtained. I don't believe I have ever seen a full nutrient analysis of any tea, short of label requirements of bottled products.

Could be a while; switched computers; operating systems; you know

HOLC
10-06-2011, 01:33 PM
We have been using the Hronek extractor for over 8 years and make 1,000-4,000 gallons per day. We have three left if your interesting in purchasing one. We extract 75% of the time and activate 25% of the time. See product and service link at http://www.harringtonsorganic.com/organic_contractors.html

ICT Bill
10-06-2011, 09:30 PM
We have been using the Hronek extractor for over 8 years and make 1,000-4,000 gallons per day. We have three left if your interesting in purchasing one. We extract 75% of the time and activate 25% of the time. See product and service link at http://www.harringtonsorganic.com/organic_contractors.html

Hey Harringtons welcome to the forum, good to see you here

how did that brew off go last year, it was the same time as ELA, I stopped by when there were like 9 brewers going at the same time and Elaine was doing her thing