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not happy
09-17-2011, 10:47 AM
I'm sorry this has nothing to do with Hardscaping, but I have a problem and I think some of you may have some good advice, and I'm also wondering if any other companies do this.
I've been working for a hardscaping company for the past few months as a laborer. The company is pretty good, the work is great all of the guys I work with are awesome, but the owner is greedy and money hungry.
Any time worked over 40 hours is paid cash at our regular hourly rate, which for me is $12.50 as well as holidays we get paid cash for 8 hours of work. Which you know it's great we get paid holidays, but It'd be nice to have it on the books as well as my overtime. That's going to mess with my unemployment, not to mention it's taking money out of my pocket. I usually get at least 10+ hours of overtime a week.
the owner doesn't just do this with me, he does it with all of his other guys too, guys that have been there for 15+ years. I'm just wondering what you guys think about this, if I'm making a big deal out of nothing or if I should actually do something about it and what I could do. When you try to talk to the owner about the situation he just flat out says NO and walks away, doesn't even want to talk about the subject.

PatriotLandscape
09-17-2011, 11:07 AM
The owner is not greedy or money hungry. You are a god damn laborer your lucky you get paid holidays.

Be lucky you have a job. I would fire you if you worked for me.
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not happy
09-17-2011, 11:24 AM
thanks for your reply patriot, you've been very helpful.
but as I said, I'm happy I get paid holidays, that's the least he can do for stealing money out of my pocket. I'd rather get paid correctly than get paid holidays.

Darryl G
09-17-2011, 11:34 AM
Your boss if violating both state and federal labor laws by not paying you 1.5 times your regular pay rate for overtime. You could file a complaint to your state and under law it would be illegal to retailiate against your for it, but do you really want to do that?

What do you mean it's going to mess with your unemployment. Are you collecting now or you mean when you eventually get laid off for the winter.

Overtime pay for holidays is not required unless specified in an employment agreement or collecitve bargaining agreement. If you're saying you get paid cash for holidays when you don't work...what the hell you complaining about??? Most hourly employees do not get paid for holidays at all! You're basically getting a cash bonus.

DVS Hardscaper
09-17-2011, 06:02 PM
The owner is not greedy or money hungry. You are a god damn laborer your lucky you get paid holidays.

Be lucky you have a job. I would fire you if you worked for me.
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Patriot, this has to be one of the most unprofessional posts I've seen on this forum.

Shame on you!

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DVS Hardscaper
09-17-2011, 06:14 PM
I would not worry bout the cash holiday pay. No biggie.

As a professional I must dispense the PC response:
1) it is illegal to compensate anyone without reporting the income to the IRS. so your employer is breaking the law if he's not reporting your earnings.
2) it is illegal for YOU to not report all of your income. So you're violating the law by accepting the cash if you're neglecting to report the income.
3) it is federal and state law for employers to Pay overtime to all employees who work more than 40 hrs in a week. This goes for salaried employees too, unless they're classified as management.

And yes, your employer is being greedy. He is being greedy by not paying you the money that you ARE LEGALLY entitled to.

And he is being greedy because he is saving himself from having to Pay more in workers comp insurance because his insurance rates are based on gross payroll.

And he is being greedy because he is weaseling his way out of the company share of paying social security and Medicare on the income. And fed and state unemployment rates are based on gross payroll as well.

This is how contractors are able to underprice work and get jobs.

He is unethical.

If you say anything to him - he's gonna eventually fire you very quickly.

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zturncutter
09-17-2011, 06:34 PM
I would not worry bout the cash holiday pay. No biggie.

As a professional I must dispense the PC response:
1) it is illegal to compensate anyone without reporting the income to the IRS. so your employer is breaking the law if he's not reporting your earnings.
2) it is illegal for YOU to not report all of your income. So you're violating the law by accepting the cash if you're neglecting to report the income.
3) it is federal and state law for employers to Pay overtime to all employees who work more than 40 hrs in a week. This goes for salaried employees too, unless they're classified as management.

And yes, your employer is being greedy. He is being greedy by not paying you the money that you ARE LEGALLY entitled to.

And he is being greedy because he is saving himself from having to Pay more in workers comp insurance because his insurance rates are based on gross payroll.

And he is being greedy because he is weaseling his way out of the company share of paying social security and Medicare on the income. And fed and state unemployment rates are based on gross payroll as well.

This is how contractors are able to underprice work and get jobs.

He is unethical.

If you say anything to him - he's gonna eventually fire you very quickly.

.
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Well put, another thing these knuckle head employers don't realize is that there liability insurance coverage is based on payroll and any under reporting is insurance fraud and the insurance company is not obligated to pay on any claims. Exactly what the insurance companies look for before paying a claim.

DVS Hardscaper
09-17-2011, 06:55 PM
The TC (topic creator) is gonna get flamed because he made mention of holiday pay. As he did fro
Patriot.

But we contractors whine and cry about being underbid. And what the TC is writing about is exactly a way for a contractor to price work cheap.

I use Paychex for my payroll processing. And for every paroll run, paychex breaks down all the liabilities. I could cry when I see how much the business must pay in SS and Medicare. Pay. Not just withhold.
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SoCalLandscapeMgmt
09-18-2011, 01:17 AM
Bottom line is that he is breaking the law. It's up to you though to decide how you deal with the situation. You could be the guy who files the complaint with the labor board, which they will investigate, make him pay all of the back wages plus a fine and probably put him out of business. Or you can just be happy to have a job and continue to deal with the fact that the guy is a crook and is breaking the law. You had better assume though that if you do turn him in there is a significant chance that your employment will end with him. It's a tough spot to be in. Ultimately it's your call as to how you deal with it.

Any ethical employer knows that you don't mess with employees pay or overtime. It's nothing more than a one way ticket to being out of business if you decide to play those kind of games. Personally, I'd love to see the guy get busted.... but that's only because I'm honest and I hate having to compete with guys who are dishonest and use it as a way to undercut the competition. My payroll runs me just under a million dollars a year and you can bet you ass that I pay every cent of overtime and payroll taxes that I am obligated to. Good luck with your dilemma..... I hope you figure something out!

zedosix
09-18-2011, 02:17 AM
As seasonal workers (up here) we are not entitled to pay any holdiay pay. Vacation pay is separate, this is due based on 4% of gross salary. I personally do pay my guys for regular holidays because my men deserve it and basically without them I wouldn't be in the position I'm in today.

PatriotLandscape
09-18-2011, 09:29 AM
Sorry for my lack of containment sometimes my angry side comes out.

As with some of us here who have many employees seeing this post sent me over the edge.

The owner is giving holiday pay to lower ranking employees and the OP is still asking for more.

Little background to my post which is most likely why I responded that way.

I had an employee cut his leg with a chainsaw last week. He was doing something he shouldn't have and was not wearing the chaps I have supplied even though they were on site.

I had just had the chainsaw safety meeting and had explained to everyone that if the saw is running in your hands you have to be wearing chaps.

He got his paycheck yesterday and had the balls to think that I should have paid him for the time he had to take off work for his self inflicted injury!

Sometimes I hate employees!
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WorldsStrongestLandscaper
09-18-2011, 10:04 AM
I had a guy quit and walk off the other day because we wouldn't pay him the extra time it took to go back to a jobsite to get a bagger for a mower that he carelessly left behind earlier in the day ,some people think they are just entitled ! I feel it in my pocket sometimes. Just wanted to vent. Sorry for the hijack. Thx !!! Now back to your regular debate! WSL
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AI Inc
09-18-2011, 10:13 AM
Well put, another thing these knuckle head employers don't realize is that there liability insurance coverage is based on payroll and any under reporting is insurance fraud and the insurance company is not obligated to pay on any claims. Exactly what the insurance companies look for before paying a claim.

actualy GL is based on gross sales.

DVS Hardscaper
09-18-2011, 10:53 AM
I hate employers that say "be happy you have a job"

We employers need to be "happy we're in business".

I employ all Hispanics. Small operation. I find that the immigrants watch their money, if you short them ONE DOLLAR, they wont let you get away with it.


And to the guy who didn't pay his employee to go back and get the correct mower - technically your employee is legally entitled to that pay. Check your state's labor laws :)
Basically you withheld pay, and in most states, that is illegal :)
I'm not sayin I agree with it. But I learned this, this Past summer.
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not happy
09-18-2011, 11:18 AM
Hey guys thanks for the advice and the knowledge of what laws are being broken, I didn't realize I was breaking a law by not reporting my income as well.
Basically, I don't want to be the one to report him because I don't want him to go to jail or be put out of business or anything like that. I just want whats rightfully mine. Like I said if forfeiting my holiday pay meant I got paid correctly I would take it.
What I didn't mention is, the owner is filthy rich. He's been in business for over 35 years and as much as I know, he's always paid his employees this way and hasn't gotten caught or been reported yet. Him and his wife both drive $80,000 Mercedes Benz and live in a really nice/big house. We do a ton of really big extravagant hardscapes, mostly colleges/commercial and rate work.
Recently we did a rate job where I had overtime on that job and again I got paid my regular hourly rate instead the time and a half, and all of my drive time to and from the job was straight time hourly. Now again before I get flamed for complaining about working on a rate job, I'm not complaining about that, just about not getting the money that is owed to me. I can barely put food in my kids mouths or clothes on their back and he his lining his pockets with the cash he saves not paying the money he is supposed to on the overtime.

I am a new guy, but from what I've heard from the other guys that have been there for a while is that's how it's always been. He doesn't offer benefits, vacation time or retirement. He doesn't do any Christmas bonuses or party. As far as I've seen just holiday pay, cash for 8 hours, which for me is $100.00 for the four holidays I get paid for.

I just wish there was an easy way to go about handling this, I want to keep my job. I do make better money than I have at other places in the same area, he does have the best jobs around, I just hate working for someone so dishonest and who blatenely steals from his employees.

SoCalLandscapeMgmt
09-18-2011, 12:29 PM
He got his paycheck yesterday and had the balls to think that I should have paid him for the time he had to take off work for his self inflicted injury!

Sometimes I hate employees!
Posted via Mobile Device

We always pay employees for their lost time if injured. Cheap insurance for when they eventually retain an attorney and decide to sue you (and trust me they will) It goes a long way to show that you're a concerned employer who has his employees best interests at heart when they are injured. If YOU don't pay then then your work comp insurance company does and it is counted in the total dollar amount of the cost of the loss when the insurance company looks at your loss runs. It's cheaper in the long run to pay them. I figure a couple of days pay out of my pocket is cheaper than several thousand of dollars of increased work comp premium the next year!

SoCalLandscapeMgmt
09-18-2011, 12:38 PM
What I didn't mention is, the owner is filthy rich. He's been in business for over 35 years and as much as I know, he's always paid his employees this way and hasn't gotten caught or been reported yet. Him and his wife both drive $80,000 Mercedes Benz and live in a really nice/big house.


OK..... it's clear that he is a crook. But I have to laugh at this statement because My wife and I both drive $80K Mercedes Benz and live in a big house. My employees all think I'm filthy rich too.... I'm not. Just be aware that just because you may think that he is rich doesn't mean squat. He could be in debt up to his eyeballs (just FYI I'm not in debt up to my eyeballs). I'm not defending the guy but your statement mad me laugh out loud. I had an employee tell me that I was rich once. I just looked at him and told him that my personal life and finances were none of his goddamn business!

Darryl G
09-18-2011, 12:52 PM
Hey guys thanks for the advice and the knowledge of what laws are being broken, I didn't realize I was breaking a law by not reporting my income as well.


Yeah, right!

zturncutter
09-18-2011, 03:15 PM
actualy GL is based on gross sales.

Here in Florida My General Liability insurer and my Work Comp. insurer have audited my payroll stats for the last 17 years. It is based on payroll here, don't know about your neck of the woods.

DVS Hardscaper
09-18-2011, 03:42 PM
You need to be paid in full for overtime hrs that you work. If I tried to pull that with my employees they would hang me by my you know what's from my chimney. And I bet your boss acts like he's doing you a favor!

There is a Denny's restaurant in my area that puts their Hispanic workers on salary, pays 100% cash, and then does not pay overtime. Which they work no less than 60 hrs per week. The Hispanics do not realize the restaurant is breaking the law and is screwing them, so that's how Denny's gets away with it. Theyre banking on the immigrants ignorance that such laws exist.

See, your boss does commercial work. Commercial work is awarded to the lowest bidder. And this is how he's able to get the work.

I was wondering if you have kids. Because with your earned income tax credit (per child) and the few extra dollars from o/t - that ADDS UP!

I think you need to have a non-confrontational talk with your boss. And don't let hi
Tell you that's how they've always done it. That's not relevant to you. And he should not weasel out of paying overtime even if it's from driving to and from a jobsite.

So many times we forum members come on here wondering how we're undercut so low in price. This thread is a prime
Example.

.
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rawtoxic
09-18-2011, 04:02 PM
What I didn't mention is, the owner is filthy rich. He's been in business for over 35 years and as much as I know, he's always paid his employees this way and hasn't gotten caught or been reported yet. Him and his wife both drive $80,000 Mercedes Benz and live in a really nice/big house.

Well if they have a big house and two 80k Mercedes to show for 35 years of hard work owning and running their own company does that make them schmucks? Put away a modest 10k a year each for 35 years they should have a 500k house with two 80k cars and probably 100k lake cottage to boot. You think they want to invest their lives into a business just to live check to check?

I worked for two companies that paid under the table over time and no one complained. They were just mid-sized companies owners lived respectfully but no one was getting filthy rich.

AI Inc
09-18-2011, 04:28 PM
Here in Florida My General Liability insurer and my Work Comp. insurer have audited my payroll stats for the last 17 years. It is based on payroll here, don't know about your neck of the woods.

My neck of the woods comp is based on payroll. GL on gross sales.
And obviously unemployment on payroll.

STL Ponds and Waterfalls
09-18-2011, 04:38 PM
I'd like to meet a RICH hardscape company owner. Most that I know are poor, and the company might be asset rich if anything.

DVS Hardscaper
09-18-2011, 04:51 PM
It's hard to gauge one's business success by their home / personal belongings.

In very very common for people to inherit money nowadays.
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zturncutter
09-18-2011, 04:55 PM
It's hard to gauge one's business success by their home / personal belongings.

In very very common for people to inherit money nowadays.
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Or have a wife with a great job w/benefits.

DVS Hardscaper
09-18-2011, 04:59 PM
I worked for two companies that paid under the table over time and no one complained.

Ok, but are you understanding what this thread is about?

Paying for overtime hrs in cash is one thing.

Not paying time and a half in whether it's cash or a check is another. A $12.50 per hr employee gets $18.75 / hr for anything over forty hours.

I would bet you this is one of the biggest complaints the labor boards get.

Once my guys hit 40 - 45 hrs they're done working for the week, I send them home. Easy as that.
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Darryl G
09-18-2011, 05:06 PM
Ok, but are you understanding what this thread is about?

Paying for overtime hrs in cash is one thing.

Not paying time and a half in cash is another. A $12.50 per hr employee gets $18.75 / hr for anything over forty hours.

I would bet you this is one of the biggest complaints the labor boards get.

Once my guys hit 40 - 45 hrs they're done working for the week, I send them home. Easy as that.
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Not trying to start a whole new issue here but......and this isn't necessarily directed at you.

Lets say you tell your guys that things are tight due to the economy and that you can't afford overtime right now, so you need them to keep their hours to 40 or less. If they turn in a time sheet for 44 hours (assuming it's legit), you still legally need to pay them the overtime, even if they say it's OK they don't want it. This is just an FYI for those who don't realize this.

DVS Hardscaper
09-18-2011, 05:09 PM
Recently we had a week of rain and they only worked 8 hrs. Well they asked if I could make the paychecks for 20 hrs and subtract the difference from the next check.

The following week the worked 42 hrs. But I had to subtract 12 hrs because I gave them an advance.

So their check was for 28 reg hrs and 2 O/T hrs. Not 30 reg hrs. When I gave them their checks I made it a point to explain that their overtime hrs were still paid at time and a half.

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DVS Hardscaper
09-18-2011, 05:16 PM
Not trying to start a whole new issue here but......and this isn't necessarily directed at you.

Lets say you tell your guys that things are tight due to the economy and that you can't afford overtime right now, so you need them to keep their hours to 40 or less. If they turn in a time sheet for 44 hours (assuming it's legit), you still legally need to pay them the overtime, even if they say it's OK they don't want it. This is just an FYI for those who don't realize this.


Exactly. If they were to decide two yrs later that they want that money - legally they're entitled to it!

Also, when you complain to the employer that you want your time and a half, he/she will probably say "how bout we put you on salary".

Well..... Not so fast with that either. Salaried employees still must be paid time and a half for over 40 hrs. The only exception is management employees, but to be considered management you MUST be involved in daily decision making. A crew leader / foreman really is not a decision making position.
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rawtoxic
09-18-2011, 05:17 PM
No I'm with the thread, the companies I worked for only gave your ACTUAL cash for overtime no 1.5x. One old boss said he bid jobs too tight for time and half so gave us cash or the option to go home at 40 hours a week. If we were doing crap work I'd bail but the guys that bailed all the time were the ones laid off first in the Fall. When interviewed for the job he told me overtime was actual rate and cash and 100% optional so he was up front I knew the terms and took them along with his job offer. This guy has about 10 employees and is my biggest competitor today just lost a $26k job to him (well he probably bid closer to 24k!) I actually thought it was cool he lets us stay with 40+ hours because like I'm building a masonry wall I don't want someone else to come in and finish I want to finish my work. I want to have it be mine done to my standards. He had a large labor pool so I always made sure I was worth my pay and one of the first to get 40 hours because the guys that would smoke dope before work and lag ass would get about 20 hours a week?

DVS Hardscaper
09-18-2011, 05:23 PM
No I'm with the thread, the companies I worked for only gave your ACTUAL cash for overtime no 1.5x. One old boss said he bid jobs too tight for time and half so gave us cash or the option to go home at 40 hours a week. If we were doing crap work I'd bail but the guys that bailed all the time were the ones laid off first in the Fall. When interviewed for the job he told me overtime was actual rate and cash and 100% optional so he was up front I knew the terms and took them along with his job offer. This guy has about 10 employees and is my biggest competitor today just lost a $26k job to him (well he probably bid closer to 24k!) I actually thought it was cool he lets us stay with 40+ hours because like I'm building a masonry wall I don't want someone else to come in and finish I want to finish my work. I want to have it be mine done to my standards. He had a large labor pool so I always made sure I was worth my pay and one of the first to get 40 hours because the guys that would smoke dope before work and lag ass would get about 20 hours a week?

The job may be tight, but that's the business owner's problem. Not the employees. He/she needs to attend some business / accounting classes and figure out how to make it happen.

That's like employers that do not pay for drivetime. It's not the employee's fault that the boss sold a job 64 miles away.

If you don't want to pay overtime out at the legal time and a half - then add another crew.



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rawtoxic
09-18-2011, 05:30 PM
DVS my deal is if both parties are willing to make it happen why not do it. The previous summer I worked for a by the book operator (allowed no overtime without supervisor approval) who laid me off August 15th where as Mr Under the Table kept me on until end of November. I'm sure there is a case by case basis for everything but I enjoyed having the option for the overtime paid at actual to no overtime at all.

DVS Hardscaper
09-18-2011, 05:31 PM
Another way employers try to save money is by paying employees as sub contractors and giving them a 1099.

Very illegal in terms of the IRS. get caught and you got problems.

The board of Ed here used to have about 30 school buses that were owned by contractors. The IRS came down on the BOE hard. Even though the buses belonged to private contractors, they technically were not contractors because the BOE was their only client and they had to work the hrsas stated by the BOE. The BOE was fined. And the BOE had to buy the contractor's buses and had to hire the contractors as employees.

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Dr.NewEarth
09-18-2011, 05:36 PM
I worked for a few months on a private golf course. They don't pay well, but I enjoyed the work.

One of the other technicians quit and was not replaced. I had to work over-time often to take up the slack, otherwise the members wouldn't have a properly maintained course to play on.

When I was not paid for my over-time, I gave the owner a copy of the British Columbia employment standards legislation and told him to please pay up.

Here in B.C., it doesn't matter if the employer approved of the over-time...if you work it, you must be paid starting at time and a half after eight hours, or more than 40 hours per week.

All employees are paid regular time with a paid day off for our nine statatory holidays per year. If you work a stat., you get a day off with pay awarded, plus you get paid time and a half. Or, you can take pay at double time and a half. This all has to be documented and signed and filed.

So, the golf course maintenance company owner gave me a song and dance about how they're "just a small company" and he "thought I was just helping out" I laughed so hard.

He paid up, but the B_ _ _ _ _ _ layed me off two weeks before I had enough months in to collect unemployment in the winter. Burn!

Currently we can apply to employment standards to recoup incorrectly paid wages up to six month retroactive of seperation.

DVS Hardscaper
09-18-2011, 05:36 PM
DVS my deal is if both parties are willing to make it happen why not do it. The previous summer I worked for a by the book operator (allowed no overtime without supervisor approval) who laid me off August 15th where as Mr Under the Table kept me on until end of November. I'm sure there is a case by case basis for everything but I enjoyed having the option for the overtime paid at actual to no overtime at all.

It's fine if both are in agreement.

But if the employee decides 5 yrs later that he wants that money, he's entitled to it. The employer is taking a risk.

Employees get mad. And they WILL get even. ITS IDENTICAL TO A NASTY DIVORCE. And what a better way to get even by reporting them for overtime fraud, even if you agreed to it!! There isn't a thing the employer can do to justify not paying time and a half in terms of the law. It's like building permits, no excuse for not obtaining a permit is acceptable, in terms of the law.


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muddywater
09-18-2011, 05:46 PM
Employers are FORCED to pay overtime after 40 hours... no matter if both parties are in agreement.

I have little respect for stupid laws. It is sad that a $10 an hour employee should be capped at $400 a week when he is willing to work more hours. It should be supply and demand.... if the employee is good and can negotiate overtime... great! If he wants to work more hours with no overtime... let him!

If employees don't like working overtime they can always quit!!!

And that is my advice to this laborer... just quit! Find another job.

SoCalLandscapeMgmt
09-18-2011, 05:58 PM
If you're not paying overtime you're playing with fire, plain and simple. About 30 years ago when my father had just started his company he had been wrongly advised that landscape companies fell under the California EDD clasification for agriculture. The rules for agriculture employers state that there is no such thing as time and a half. It's straight time for as many hours are worked in a week. Turned out that in California landscape falls under the housekeeping classification. He had an employee back in 1984 who filed a complaint with the EDD, which promptly came out and investigated. They basically told my Dad that he had bad info and he was forced to pay all of the difference for the time and a half to every employee who had worked overtime from the time he started the company in 1977 up until 1984. They subpoenaed all of the payroll records and basically told him how much he had to pay every employee that he had had since 1977. Even employees who no longer worked for us. There were some fines involved too. This was an honest mistake on his part but it turned out to be a very costly lesson. He later found out that the guy who filed the complaint was mad because my parents had just bought a new house and he was basically jealous. Which just goes to show that all it takes is one angry employee to say something and you're in deep trouble if you're playing games with their pay whether it be intentional or just out of sheer ignorance of the labor code.

DVS Hardscaper
09-18-2011, 06:01 PM
Employers are FORCED to pay overtime after 40 hours... no matter if both parties are in agreement.

I have little respect for stupid laws. It is sad that a $10 an hour employee should be capped at $400 a week when he is willing to work more hours. It should be supply and demand.... if the employee is good and can negotiate overtime... great! If he wants to work more hours with no overtime... let him!

If employees don't like working overtime they can always quit!!!

And that is my advice to this laborer... just quit! Find another job.


I would get a CDL. You can make more driving a tractor trailer and it's easier work.

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muddywater
09-18-2011, 06:13 PM
I would get a CDL. You can make more driving a tractor trailer and it's easier work.

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Talk about an unproffessional response!

Why is this not open for discussion? Overtime is an old law that is not cohesive with the current economy. Employerers need to cut costs, and employees need more money!! Seems like a win-win.

There are creative legal pay structures to avoid overtime. I''ll just leave it at that since I just got poopoo'ed on by closeminded DVS.

Darryl G
09-18-2011, 06:16 PM
Well..... Not so fast with that either. Salaried employees still must be paid time and a half for over 40 hrs. The only exception is management employees, but to be considered management you MUST be involved in daily decision making. A crew leader / foreman really is not a decision making position.
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Well, it's a bit more complicated, here in CT anyway. They have a list of criteria that you have to meet to be considered salaried, and you don't necessarily need to be management. They use the terms "Executive, Administrative and Professonal". It can get pretty complicated and somewhat subjective, but even includes the amount of their salary as part of their criteria. They sure don't make it an easy determination of whether someone should be considered hourly or salaried.

With that said, my former career was in environmental consulting/engineering. Virtually all of the engineers and scientists were put on salary, even the field technicians, who often worked long hours. That's what I started as...actually an "Assistant Hydrogeologist". I had long since moved up the ladder to Project Manager/Field Services Coordinator when a disgruntled Field Tech filed a formal complaint to the State Labor Department. The Labor Dept. did a comprehensive audit of the company employee records going back several years. I received a check for back overtime to the tune of several thousand dollars, as did many others. Company management had thought that because these employees all had 2 or 4 year degrees, worked largely independently (they basically got a map and a mission and they often came into the office only on Fridays), and regularly had to use their own judgement, they would be considered salaried employees....management was wrong.

DVS Hardscaper
09-18-2011, 07:57 PM
Talk about an unproffessional response!

Why is this not open for discussion? Overtime is an old law that is not cohesive with the current economy. Employerers need to cut costs, and employees need more money!! Seems like a win-win.

There are creative legal pay structures to avoid overtime. I''ll just leave it at that since I just got poopoo'ed on by closeminded DVS.


Absolutely NOT "unproffessional".

I am DEAD serious. To Hell with laboring for $12.50 per. After taxes there's nothing left.

Why on earth would one want to push a loaded wheel-barr up and down a hill all day long in 95-degree temps for $12-15 per hour when there are other honest ways to earn a living and make more money by doing easier work??

The TC is smart enough to know the difference between wrong and right that he came online and started researching. That tells me he's bright enough to sooner or later realize he's better off making a living doing something else.




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DVS Hardscaper
09-18-2011, 08:10 PM
Employers are FORCED to pay overtime after 40 hours... no matter if both parties are in agreement.

I have little respect for stupid laws. It is sad that a $10 an hour employee should be capped at $400 a week when he is willing to work more hours. It should be supply and demand.... if the employee is good and can negotiate overtime... great! If he wants to work more hours with no overtime... let him!

If employees don't like working overtime they can always quit!!!

And that is my advice to this laborer... just quit! Find another job.


I'm not sure what you mean about "not open for discussion". I didn't realize you were wanting to discuss something specific. I have gone back and read your post twice and I'm not seeing where you brought a discussuon to the table. You mentioned that you do not agree with the laws. Well, I don't think anyone agrees with all the laws.

You told the guy to "quit". I agree. There are blue collar jobs out there that pay more.

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muddywater
09-19-2011, 06:52 PM
I would get a CDL. You can make more driving a tractor trailer and it's easier work.
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I have followed your posts, and I think you are pretty smart guy, but I guess it is really not worth trying to have a discussion with someone that tries to personally insult you.

not happy
09-19-2011, 06:59 PM
I actually have a CDL-B, which for the most part doesn't do me a whole lot of good, But I can at least drive a dump truck w/ air brakes full of material. This winter once I'm laid off I'm working on getting trained for my CDL-A and I'm going to try to go to work for a bigger site company, excavating company...something along those lines.
I actually love working as much as possible, I like long hot days in the sun, I mostly screed our base and carry pavers for the guys laying and do some equipment operating when available, but there isn't much equipment work on the brick crew since there is a separate crew that sets up our jobs (digout/crusher run).

DVS Hardscaper
09-19-2011, 08:02 PM
I have followed your posts, and I think you are pretty smart guy, but I guess it is really not worth trying to have a discussion with someone that tries to personally insult you.


I totally have no idea what you're talking about.

Can you please copy and paste the statement I wrote that you feel was intended to "personally insult you"?

My participation in this topic has been completely focused on:
1) Discussion of laws regarding the subject
2) I made mention that low ball contractors cheat their employees on o/t and drive time.
3) I mentioned that contractors will also pay employeees as subs
4) I told the TC that he could make a better and easier living doing something else and make more money. And I stand firm on that statement.

So what did I write that was intended to insult you? I'm lost...



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DVS Hardscaper
09-19-2011, 08:10 PM
I actually have a CDL-B, which for the most part doesn't do me a whole lot of good, But I can at least drive a dump truck w/ air brakes full of material. This winter once I'm laid off I'm working on getting trained for my CDL-A and I'm going to try to go to work for a bigger site company, excavating company...something along those lines.
I actually love working as much as possible, I like long hot days in the sun, I mostly screed our base and carry pavers for the guys laying and do some equipment operating when available, but there isn't much equipment work on the brick crew since there is a separate crew that sets up our jobs (digout/crusher run).


HAHA!! See, I was on the right track when I advised you to get your CDL! It's scarey how I predict things.

I'd love to employ a hardworking individual with a Class B CDL, for me that would be a huge load off my shoulders




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JoeyDipetro
09-19-2011, 11:28 PM
I haven't read every post and chances are somebody already said it, but just move on if you are not happy with the current arrangement. Have you actually analyzed and tried to quantify the difference between getting paid overtime on the books, holidays on the books and the current arrangement? If so, what is the net effect of how your employer is paying you at this time?

Murphy's Law
09-20-2011, 06:17 PM
I'm curious to what state the TC lives and works in. I know up here our labor laws are more loose than say California.

muddywater
09-20-2011, 09:51 PM
I totally have no idea what you're talking about.

Can you please copy and paste the statement I wrote that you feel was intended to "personally insult you"?

My participation in this topic has been completely focused on:
1) Discussion of laws regarding the subject
2) I made mention that low ball contractors cheat their employees on o/t and drive time.
3) I mentioned that contractors will also pay employeees as subs
4) I told the TC that he could make a better and easier living doing something else and make more money. And I stand firm on that statement.

So what did I write that was intended to insult you? I'm lost...



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I must have misinterrepted your post. I am sorry.

PSUhardscaper
09-20-2011, 11:13 PM
The job may be tight, but that's the business owner's problem. Not the employees. He/she needs to attend some business / accounting classes and figure out how to make it happen.

That's like employers that do not pay for drivetime. It's not the employee's fault that the boss sold a job 64 miles away.

If you don't want to pay overtime out at the legal time and a half - then add another crew.



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Posted via Mobile Device

I have heard of companies that only pay one-way truck time. They say if there is a truck full of guys coming home from a job, only the driver gets paid up to when the truck arrives at the shop. The passenger's day is done when they leave the jobsite. They are not required to do anything when they get back, simply get in their car and go home. Is this legal?

Darryl G
09-20-2011, 11:39 PM
I have heard of companies that only pay one-way truck time. They say if there is a truck full of guys coming home from a job, only the driver gets paid up to when the truck arrives at the shop. The passenger's day is done when they leave the jobsite. They are not required to do anything when they get back, simply get in their car and go home. Is this legal?

Nope, that's company time that should be paid for. They should be paid from the time they get to the shop until the time they leave the shop. There are some exceptions for those who travel directly to the job site, if it's the same or less time than their commute to the shop, but in the instance you gave they should be paid.

DVS Hardscaper
09-21-2011, 12:29 AM
I have heard of companies that only pay one-way truck time. They say if there is a truck full of guys coming home from a job, only the driver gets paid up to when the truck arrives at the shop. The passenger's day is done when they leave the jobsite. They are not required to do anything when they get back, simply get in their car and go home. Is this legal?

A company vehicle took them to that location and a company vehicle is bringing them back from that location. They're there on BEHALF of THE COMPANY! Therefore they are to be compensated by the company for all of their time.

Employers try to be so fah king creative on how they pay their employers. I have no respect for ANY employer that pulls that crap. I get angry when I hear stories about employers trying to save money at the employee's expense. For every minute your employee is working, riding in the truck, reviewing company papers, petting your new puppy - YOU PAY THEM!

I know of one contractor that was considering making their employees drive to the jobsites in their own personal cars (to save money). Well......the jobsites are 60 miles away...with HEAVY stop and go rush hour traffic!! I believe they never carried through with that idea.



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