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Lawnut101
09-23-2011, 05:18 PM
I am pricing out lawns for aerating between $10-$12 per thousand sqft, with a minimum of about $75. Does this sound fair? I haven't done much aerating other than really small lawns, so a little help would be good. I am using a Bluebird 530A that I picked up real cheap :cool2: So I plan on going over everything twice to get the right amount of plugs out.

Thanks for the help.

Smallaxe
09-23-2011, 11:00 PM
Could be worth the cost if it was a useful tool for the specific lawns' needs... You could also upsell to something that the lawn does need...
What is your philosophy on aeration?

JDiepstra
09-23-2011, 11:15 PM
Could be worth the cost if it was a useful tool for the specific lawns' needs... You could also upsell to something that the lawn does need...
What is your philosophy on aeration?

Please.... It will benifit 99.9% of lawns.

Smallaxe
09-24-2011, 11:07 AM
Please.... It will benifit 99.9% of lawns.

A good overseed is usually better than an aeration... on clay soil, both can be beneficial, but on lighter soils it is usually a waste of money. unless there is a "Real Thatch" problem...

My problem is that aeration is used as a fix all solution, to compensate for poor cultural practices, instead of addressing a lawn's actual need, and getting correct overseeding done... Your 99.9% rule is just another exa. of what I mean... One size fits all... fly by nite business model...

What really irritates me, as the "Professional" approach being the idea that aeration makes a seedbed for overseeding...

vencops
09-24-2011, 12:00 PM
I'm not arguing your point, smallaxe.

I'll ask, though.....what's the cost to do "the right thing" on say....a 30KSF cool season lawn?

I'm betting there's more to it than just an easy way out (re: aeration/over-seeds).

JFGauvreau
09-24-2011, 12:02 PM
All depends on what you do, I tell my customer aeration is only one service, but other services will benefit from having done the aeration. Some "Fly by night" company will tell the customer they will have a golf course if they aerate, their lawn will be super thick and green, which is never the case.

You will see a bit of change with aeration, but even more changes if you combine aeration and over seeding together.

But then again, over seeding alone where I live has little to no success. Most of the time the seeds fly away, get eaten by birds, or land on thatch, or even if they land on poor soil like clay, home owners never keep the soil damp to maximize germination.

Top dressing + over seeding in my opinion has way better results. Like I said, I make sure to tell my clients what really is suitable for their lawn, and what results they will get.

Exact Rototilling
09-24-2011, 01:58 PM
Starting prices for aeration in this area start around what one could rent one for roughly $50. I had one customer practically argue with me that she could rent a machine for $39 and I should be willing to do it for less than that. On smaller residential properties I have struggled to maintain the $68-$75 price range. I run into resistance on price all the time and told I'm expensive. Several of the application Co.'s here run low baller specials on the aeration part of the deal $29.95 upto 5k sq feet.

The BlueBird 530 is featured in one of my thread vs. the LS and Plugr. The 530 needs ideal soil moisture. Tell your customer up front you're doing a double pass.

My Plugr 850's do a much better job in soil prep for over seeding over my rolling tine aerator. Call it vertical tilling or pulverizing etc. plus more plugs thus soil for seed top dressing. Use the front hydro drive as a brake PL850/PL855 and the tines really do a number on the soil in the correct condtions. One can also adjust up the tines to limit plug depth and/or use older shorter tine that pull fatter plugs for even more soil volume. The Plugr hydros are excellent renovation prep tools.

JFGauvreau
09-24-2011, 02:05 PM
Starting prices for aeration in this area start around what one could rent one for roughly $50. I had one customer practically argue with me that she could rent a machine for $39 and I should be willing to do it for less than that...

Here is almost the same, 45$ for 4 hours for home owners. + the time to get there, picked it up, come back, do the work, bring it back, come back home.

I really have a hard time with customers asking me to do it for less then the rental price. These are trully lowballers customers I don't want to have.

fl-landscapes
09-24-2011, 03:09 PM
A good overseed is usually better than an aeration... on clay soil, both can be beneficial, but on lighter soils it is usually a waste of money. unless there is a "Real Thatch" problem...

My problem is that aeration is used as a fix all solution, to compensate for poor cultural practices, instead of addressing a lawn's actual need, and getting correct overseeding done... Your 99.9% rule is just another exa. of what I mean... One size fits all... fly by nite business model...

What really irritates me, as the "Professional" approach being the idea that aeration makes a seedbed for overseeding...

What irritates me is when someone thinks an aerator should be used for a "real thatch" problem. Stick with compaction issues for the aerator and use a verti cutter for removing thatch.
Posted via Mobile Device

Lawnut101
09-24-2011, 04:10 PM
My reason for doing aeration is because the customer wants it done. And it can be beneficial to the lawn, especially if I can sell them an overseed and fert program. Aerating can definitely help level out bumpy lawns, and topdressing creates a good seedbed. I went to school for all this stuff, so I know the benefits to most everything and other services that aren't worth it. Still, people have their own oppinions and are definitely entitled to have them.

Lawnut101
09-24-2011, 04:12 PM
I need a little more info on pricing. I am thinking about charging between $175-$205 for an 18k sqft lawn. And around $150-175 for a 15k sqft lawn. Do these prices sound reasonable?

JDiepstra
09-24-2011, 06:17 PM
Double the mow price minimum. Triple the mow price is my goal.

Lawnut101
09-24-2011, 06:40 PM
Double the mow price minimum. Triple the mow price is my goal.

Alright. I don't mow these lawns, but they would be around a $45 ballpark. So if I can get them for around $150 each I should be fine.

JD, also how accurate are the productivity rates that the manufacturers state about their aerators. They say mine can do 21,000sqft in an hour. That seems a little high to me though.

Smallaxe
09-24-2011, 07:02 PM
What irritates me is when someone thinks an aerator should be used for a "real thatch" problem. Stick with compaction issues for the aerator and use a verti cutter for removing thatch.
Posted via Mobile Device

I'm not talking about the brown grass clippings, which is better defined as 'mulch'... I'm talking about 'thatch' as described by the Uni. of Ill...

http://urbanext.illinois.edu/lawnchallenge/lesson5.html

JFGauvreau
09-24-2011, 07:03 PM
It's really hard to tell since the prices varies from area. Here a 15ksq/f lawn I wouldn't do it under 300$

You should call around other company to get an idea of what their price is, then again, it doesn't mean your prices have to be the exact same, you might not have the same over head as them.

Smallaxe
09-24-2011, 07:12 PM
I'm not arguing your point, smallaxe.

I'll ask, though.....what's the cost to do "the right thing" on say....a 30KSF cool season lawn?

I'm betting there's more to it than just an easy way out (re: aeration/over-seeds).

You would establish the cost of the simple 'once over' with the machine... add the time of flagging Irr. heads... add the cost of double pass over thin areas... add the time it takes to stitch in the seed...

Or.

Run the rental unit to as many places as possible in one rental period... then charge separately to do a proper overseed, which brings us back to my original point...

How much does an unnecessary aeration make a proper overseed more difficult?
Much cheaper if the $150.00 was used for a goo topdressing, like compost... :)

fl-landscapes
09-24-2011, 07:36 PM
I'm not talking about the brown grass clippings, which is better defined as 'mulch'... I'm talking about 'thatch' as described by the Uni. of Ill...

http://urbanext.illinois.edu/lawnchallenge/lesson5.html

Ya, I know what thatch is. I also know an aerator isn't the machine for removing it. My lawn solutions verticutter with the special reel I had them make to my specs for st Augustine grass is the tool, not my aerator. Keep using your aerator for thatch removal and your wheel barrow for top dressing and people here may figure out you don't know nearly as much as you pretend too.
Posted via Mobile Device

fl-landscapes
09-24-2011, 07:39 PM
I'm not talking about the brown grass clippings, which is better defined as 'mulch'... I'm talking about 'thatch' as described by the Uni. of Ill...

http://urbanext.illinois.edu/lawnchallenge/lesson5.html

You may mulch grass but their called clippings. Mulch is for landscape beds
Posted via Mobile Device

Smallaxe
09-24-2011, 07:50 PM
Ya, I know what thatch is. I also know an aerator isn't the machine for removing it. My lawn solutions verticutter with the special reel I had them make to my specs for st Augustine grass is the tool, not my aerator. Keep using your aerator for thatch removal and your wheel barrow for top dressing and people here may figure out you don't know nearly as much as you pretend too.
Posted via Mobile Device

The aerator doesn't pretend to remove thatch... niether is the removal of thatch accomplished by "dethatching" or verticutting...

Tell me what the aerator does to overcome the problems inherent with the layer of living and dead, roots and stems, growing at the surface, above the soil?

Then let me know what happens if you remove all of that layer of "living and dead roots and stems", above the surface of the soil, with your verticutter...

I could care less if St. Augustine even develops thatch, becuz that is not the topic at hand...

Smallaxe
09-24-2011, 07:54 PM
You may mulch grass but their called clippings. Mulch is for landscape beds
Posted via Mobile Device

Lots of grass blades die in the winter, turn brown and lay over the tops of the roots and "their" not, I mean, They're not clippings but are referred to as 'thatch' by a number of LCO professionals who commonly misname what this brown lawn debri is...

I'm not sure if there is a good name for it, but it certainly is not thatch...

JFGauvreau
09-24-2011, 08:20 PM
Always a lot of controversy in this forum lol.

Thatch is not made up from grass clippings or dead grass. It's made of mainly old stems and rhizomes.

If you take off all the thatch, your soil will dry out to fast. If you have to much thatch, then nutrients won't be able/or have a hard time reaching the roots.

The dead grass from past winter should only be rake up in spring, or you can use a dethatcher, while setting the blades higher, so you do a "light" raking of the lawn.

Smallaxe
09-24-2011, 08:33 PM
Always a lot of controversy in this forum lol.

Thatch is not made up from grass clippings or dead grass. It's made of mainly old stems and rhizomes.

If you take off all the thatch, your soil will dry out to fast. If you have to much thatch, then nutrients won't be able/or have a hard time reaching the roots.

The dead grass from past winter should only be rake up in spring, or you can use a dethatcher, while setting the blades higher, so you do a "light" raking of the lawn.

See... this is my point exactly... :)

Read/study the article in the recently posted URL...

I think on another page of that site, it also discusses the removal of dead grass in the Spring... Lots of erroneous ideas to be challenged... never stop learning and analysing...

vencops
09-24-2011, 09:56 PM
smallaxe:

Let me ask my question another way, then.....

How much to (in your opinion/using the "right" procedures) properly seed an established lawn? Let's use the 30KSF as the baseline.

List equipment requirements; materials costs; etc... .

f50lvr2
09-24-2011, 11:43 PM
The price seems a little low to me. Last year I was at $17/1k this year I raised it to $20/1k. More expensive than some, less than others but I've made my prices for what works for me.

Once a homeowner actually rents an aerator and tries it themselves most will never balk at the price of having it done again, they just don't realize how much work it is and how physical it can be.

Smallaxe
09-25-2011, 07:06 AM
smallaxe:

Let me ask my question another way, then.....

How much to (in your opinion/using the "right" procedures) properly seed an established lawn? Let's use the 30KSF as the baseline.

List equipment requirements; materials costs; etc... .

It actually depends on who it's for...
If the turf is good, heads are flagged, no obstacles, no seed necessary, single pass, rental cost+winshield time, and a person to do the actual work, probably shoot for $150 as long as there are other jobs to divide the cost of the rental...

All other additional extras, increase from that level... Why do you ask? What would you charge? and would you do the work all day yourself?

vencops
09-25-2011, 08:32 AM
Why do I ask?

It seems (I may be wrong) that you're not fond of the method most folks use to over-seed lawns. Here, we typically aerate: over-seed; starter fert. @ the same time.

Now....do you think this procedure is lacking?

We'll start, there. If there's a better method of doing what I do, I want to learn it.

JDiepstra
09-25-2011, 01:30 PM
Why do I ask?

It seems (I may be wrong) that you're not fond of the method most folks use to over-seed lawns. Here, we typically aerate: over-seed; starter fert. @ the same time.

Now....do you think this procedure is lacking?

We'll start, there. If there's a better method of doing what I do, I want to learn it.

I have noticed a trend where smallaxe will tell people they are wrong but never give a direct answer about what is right.

Smallaxe
09-25-2011, 01:32 PM
Why do I ask?

It seems (I may be wrong) that you're not fond of the method most folks use to over-seed lawns. Here, we typically aerate: over-seed; starter fert. @ the same time.

Now....do you think this procedure is lacking?

We'll start, there. If there's a better method of doing what I do, I want to learn it.

There are 3 reasons for aerating... compaction, thatch and to get ammendments into the soil...

The only time one would use a plugger for seeding is if plugging the ground to the point of tilling or loosening the ground enough to rake over into a seedbed... otherwise you got doll hair grass tufts for no good reason... cetainly not the ideal seedbed... 2-3" deep holes 3-4" apart isn't the description of sowing KBG...

W/out those reasons to aerate, then you would consider the best way to overseed, if no reason to overseed then one would focus on winterizer and think back as to what cultural practices was utilized to NOT need to aerate or overseed...

Smallaxe
09-25-2011, 01:35 PM
I have noticed a trend where smallaxe will tell people they are wrong but never give a direct answer about what is right.

How much more direct do I have to be... plant your grasses in 3" holes and good luck with it... pre-m you dormant lawns too if you like, 3 months in advance of CG is just about right...

vencops
09-25-2011, 01:38 PM
No offense, but that comes nowhere near answering my questions.

I'm asking you a direct comparison question, with the hopes of determining costs for each (customer wants an over-seed).

If "my" method isn't optimal, I want to know what would be optimal; what it would cost to have it done/do it; equipment requirements; materials requirements and anything else that the end price would entail.

It's easy to say brushing one's teeth isn't as optimal as having the hygienist do it in the dental office. It's another thing to weigh $100 v. $.02 (each time you clean your teeth) and determine a threshold you're willing to live with (i.e. common practices).

Patriot Services
09-25-2011, 01:48 PM
This point has been argued many times here. Bunching seed at the bottom of the hole is WRONG! I have yet to see a study or even read a seed bag that says plant at that depth. Might explain why many seed jobs use 5x the seed needed and still come out patchy. A slitseeder will give the optimum sowing depth. Aearation is important just for different reasons.
Posted via Mobile Device

Smallaxe
09-25-2011, 01:59 PM
No offense, but that comes nowhere near answering my questions.

I'm asking you a direct comparison question, with the hopes of determining costs for each (customer wants an over-seed).

If "my" method isn't optimal, I want to know what would be optimal; what it would cost to have it done/do it; equipment requirements; materials requirements and anything else that the end price would entail.

It's easy to say brushing one's teeth isn't as optimal as having the hygienist do it in the dental office. It's another thing to weigh $100 v. $.02 (each time you clean your teeth) and determine a threshold you're willing to live with (i.e. common practices).

There is no one size fits all, optimal or otherwise method of planting seed or lawncare... Just figure out what is needed and what will work best...

The most common and cheapest method of patchwork overseeding is a bit of compost and a weasel, which is the greatest success, BTW...

Aerating for seedbed, just as an automatic thing we do, is the problem.... just like pre-m as soon as the snow is gone... :)

JFGauvreau
09-25-2011, 02:50 PM
Cheap and efficient way to do a over seeding (not talking about slit seeding)
for us would be top dressing the lawn with mushroom and shrimp compost, then over seed with the right seeds, then pass over with a roller to maximize seed-to-soil contact.

It's not a super expansive service also for the customer, not for you also, just need a wheel barrow, shovel, rake and spreader.

You can have a cheaper over seeding service that would of consist of only over seeding, but for me personally, throwing seeds on a lawn has little to no success, the compost you lay down before throwing your seeds will greatly help.

If the lawn would have a small thatch or compaction issues, you could do the aeration before doing the top dress + seeds. That way some of the rich compost will have a chance to get in the holes.

Like smallaxe said, their is no one size fits all for every turf grass. Determine what is best suitable for the grass, and tell the customer, if hes a cheap customer and only wants X,X and X services, tell him it will benefit his grass, "But honestly sir, to attain the best results for this summer, you would need X,X,X,X, and X services etc.

vencops
09-25-2011, 04:50 PM
I wish someone would address the actual costs associated with "doing it right".

You'd have to own or rent a compost (or similar type) spreader, I "assume". You'd have the cost of the materials (whatever it is you're spreading). You'd have ($_____) labor involved in getting to the areas the spreader won't reach. You'd possibly have the equipment and labor to roll the seedbed.

Have we surpassed that $150 for 30KSF figure smallaxe cited?

If someone could do a 30KSF over-seed prep. for that price, I'd keep them REALLY busy.

mikesturf
09-25-2011, 04:52 PM
The price seems a little low to me. Last year I was at $17/1k this year I raised it to $20/1k. More expensive than some, less than others but I've made my prices for what works for me.

Once a homeowner actually rents an aerator and tries it themselves most will never balk at the price of having it done again, they just don't realize how much work it is and how physical it can be.

I see MANY flyers every year in my Northwest Chicago suburbs; the pricing is usually $42 up to a 7,000 ft lawn, sometimes $35 if 2 or 3 together. Since I bundle my aerating fee with my annual fertilization I can charge more. I can aerate around 14 lawns per day with my Lawn Solutions walk behind. (single pass aeration with double pass along street and along driveway where its really compacted).

For $20/1k do you double aerate, include seed and starter fert???

Exact Rototilling
09-25-2011, 05:23 PM
I think the only way to answer the question is to do a few overseed jobs and see how you do on materials and labor.
Posted via Mobile Device

JFGauvreau
09-25-2011, 05:47 PM
I wish someone would address the actual costs associated with "doing it right".

You'd have to own or rent a compost (or similar type) spreader, I "assume". You'd have the cost of the materials (whatever it is you're spreading). You'd have ($_____) labor involved in getting to the areas the spreader won't reach. You'd possibly have the equipment and labor to roll the seedbed.

Have we surpassed that $150 for 30KSF figure smallaxe cited?

If someone could do a 30KSF over-seed prep. for that price, I'd keep them REALLY busy.

I forgot the part you mentioned 30k sq/f. lol..

If your putting down 1/2" thick of compost, then you would need around 50 cubic yards to do the job. + the seeds. Now 50 cubic yards is pretty much impossible to do in 1 day with a wheelbarrow. Maybe you could rent a mechanical gas powered top dresser to do the job. Your definitely over 150$ with all this.

vencops
09-25-2011, 07:49 PM
I'm sincerely open to new methods. I have the type clientele that understand added value.

If there's a better method of providing my customers with what they want (which is a full, thick lawn), like I said....I'm all ears.

I'd just like to have an IDEA of what those procedures/costs were, beforehand.

2X the cost of the SOP over-seed in these parts? I'm not sure I could sell that. I'm also not sure it's necessary on most of my lawns. Some? I'm sure it is (or, would be optimal).

Lawnut101
09-25-2011, 09:23 PM
Come on guys, I didn't want this to be a pissing match. I just want some advice on prices, since I haven't done much bidding on this type of work in the past. I know what I am doing and what I am selling. So IF anyone has any help on price, I would appreciate it, otherwise please stop arguing.

vencops
09-25-2011, 09:47 PM
Sorry for interjecting.

Good luck.

mikesturf
09-25-2011, 10:50 PM
Come on guys, I didn't want this to be a pissing match. I just want some advice on prices, since I haven't done much bidding on this type of work in the past. I know what I am doing and what I am selling. So IF anyone has any help on price, I would appreciate it, otherwise please stop arguing.

Every area market is different. I get 10 flyers every spring/fall quoting $35-$42 to aerate my lawn and I see them on my customer's door also. Scott's, Tru-Green, etc. charge around $65-$85 for these types of lawns-however I don't see them doing much aerating. It all depends on what your competition charges in your area. Call some local companies to get quotes on what they would charge for your size lawn, or a friends's lawn.

Smallaxe
09-26-2011, 09:46 AM
Come on guys, I didn't want this to be a pissing match. I just want some advice on prices, since I haven't done much bidding on this type of work in the past. I know what I am doing and what I am selling. So IF anyone has any help on price, I would appreciate it, otherwise please stop arguing.

Go with the $45.00/matchbook lawn and add $10/k beyond that for larger lawns... Upsell overseeding areas that look like they could use it... but you look bad if those areas are still bare in the Spring...

Not trying to steal your thread, we are discussing "Fair".

Smallaxe
09-26-2011, 10:16 AM
I wish someone would address the actual costs associated with "doing it right".

You'd have to own or rent a compost (or similar type) spreader, I "assume". You'd have the cost of the materials (whatever it is you're spreading). You'd have ($_____) labor involved in getting to the areas the spreader won't reach. You'd possibly have the equipment and labor to roll the seedbed.

Have we surpassed that $150 for 30KSF figure smallaxe cited?

If someone could do a 30KSF over-seed prep. for that price, I'd keep them REALLY busy.

You are holding onto a notion that does not apply... cost is relative to what needs to be done...
All 30k needs overseeding??? Then you're still dealing with an immature lawn or a severely abused lawn, maybe aeration and overseeding is a complete waste of time... or maybe that's all you do... if the existing grass doesn't want to grow and spread why do you think the new seed will??? think about that one point for just a minute, or forever... :)

In most cases there are trouble spots that need special attention and aeration is not necessary in those spots or over the rest of the lawn...
therefore

The strategy is : To fix the trouble spots!!!

, rather than charge the client for an Aerator, trip to rental store, overseeder, 50# bag of seed, and anything else you can think of, just perfect the lawn...

Here is an exa... My cheapest overseeding job this year, was on a 9k wooded lawn... I brought in 6 pails of compost and 5# bag of seed and a weasel... w/in a half an hour I had the sprinklers on and complete germination 10 days later... still have most of the 5# bag of seed left, which will come in handy at the end of the season for Dormant Seeding...

End result: the lawn was perfected...

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olcllc
09-26-2011, 05:47 PM
I must be really cheap. Although I feel i'm fair since i cover my cost and make money. I currently charge $12/K and don't feel the market would accept an increase in my area. I Don't aerate though... I vertislice or power rake. My Billy Goat (PR500H) has interchangeable reels and I see good results. I guess it depends on your market and material costs as to what your pricing needs to be.

I can cover a 15K lawn in 45 minutes and usually try to group them together to save time as well. I use Five Star seed... a blend of cool season fescues and if you purchased this spring could get it for $26.00/50lb. It now costs 48.00/50lb. So guys just buying their product can't compete because the material cost has almost doubled.

Smallaxe
09-26-2011, 05:58 PM
I must be really cheap. Although I feel i'm fair since i cover my cost and make money. I currently charge $12/K and don't feel the market would accept an increase in my area. I Don't aerate though... I vertislice or power rake. My Billy Goat (PR500H) has interchangeable reels and I see good results. I guess it depends on your market and material costs as to what your pricing needs to be.

I can cover a 15K lawn in 45 minutes and usually try to group them together to save time as well. I use Five Star seed... a blend of cool season fescues and if you purchased this spring could get it for $26.00/50lb. It now costs 48.00/50lb. So guys just buying their product can't compete because the material cost has almost doubled.

Neither do you deal with compaction or thatch issues... :)

olcllc
09-26-2011, 06:49 PM
Neither do you deal with compaction or thatch issues... :)

Compaction I suppose is a subjective term. Our soil is always compacted due to it being a rocky, clay, composition with very little top soil and aerating in the past has shown very little improvement. As far as thatch... we need all the organic material we can get so thatch is not really an issue either. Clippings seem to breakdown without build up. I'm not big on doing busy work. I have plenty of necessary work to do.

Smallaxe
09-26-2011, 08:40 PM
... As far as thatch... we need all the organic material we can get so thatch is not really an issue either. Clippings seem to breakdown without build up...

Here we go again... :)

"Thatch" is not: grass clippings that become brown mulch in the turf...

"Thatch", is not: winter killed grass blades that lay on the lawn b4 the Spring rebirth...

"Thatch" is: Living and dead, roots and stems that grow above the surface of the soil...

This is a thatch layer that is not only hydrophobic but do not allow ferts or water to feed root actually in the soil... Absolutely dependant on frequent fert apps and irrigation, they are... :)

I believe it was this phenomena that made "aeration", an issue some 40-50 years ago... but I could be mistaken...

I agree, all clippings, most leaves, the dead leftovers from last year's grow should be left on the turf... 'dethatching', is truly counter-productive... :)

Now!!! let's talk lawn care...

olcllc
09-27-2011, 04:42 AM
Here we go again... :)

"Thatch" is not: grass clippings that become brown mulch in the turf...

"Thatch", is not: winter killed grass blades that lay on the lawn b4 the Spring rebirth...

"Thatch" is: Living and dead, roots and stems that grow above the surface of the soil...

This is a thatch layer that is not only hydrophobic but do not allow ferts or water to feed root actually in the soil... Absolutely dependant on frequent fert apps and irrigation, they are... :)

I believe it was this phenomena that made "aeration", an issue some 40-50 years ago... but I could be mistaken...

I agree, all clippings, most leaves, the dead leftovers from last year's grow should be left on the turf... 'dethatching', is truly counter-productive... :)

Now!!! let's talk lawn care...

Thatch is absolutely organic material, just too much that has not decayed properly... and while you are correct that its major components are the roots and stems which comprise the "living" portion... clippings and other debris comprise the "dead" portion.

Please refer to the following:
http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/horticulture/DG1123.html

Smallaxe
09-27-2011, 09:05 AM
Thatch is absolutely organic material, just too much that has not decayed properly... and while you are correct that its major components are the roots and stems which comprise the "living" portion... clippings and other debris comprise the "dead" portion.

Please refer to the following:
http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/horticulture/DG1123.html

" Thatch is a tightly interwoven layer of living and dead tissue existing between the green vegetation and soil surface. It is composed primarily of products from stems, leaf sheaths, and roots that are fairly resistant to decay"

The products stems, leaf sheaths, and roots, (NOT clippings , but products) ... fairly resistant to decay...

It was the 1st paragraph in your article... Come on, let's be sensible... :)

olcllc
09-27-2011, 11:52 AM
" Thatch is a tightly interwoven layer of living and dead tissue existing between the green vegetation and soil surface. It is composed primarily of products from stems, leaf sheaths, and roots that are fairly resistant to decay"

The products stems, leaf sheaths, and roots, (NOT clippings , but products) ... fairly resistant to decay...

It was the 1st paragraph in your article... Come on, let's be sensible... :)

"Thatch is the layer of undecomposed and partially decomposed plant material".

If clippings aren't plant material then what is it? As I stated above it's not the only part of thatch but a component of it. I think any sensible person that reads the entire article understands that.

Smallaxe
09-27-2011, 06:19 PM
A layer of grass clippings have certain properties such as holding moisture, shading the soil, decaying into the soil, thus building soil structure and helps to protect the surface from pounding rain, much as mulch around a strawberry bed...

A layer of thatch can evidently be either a "Tightly interwoven layer of living and dead plant material..." or it could be just grass clippings... it's all in the interpretation of any individual feelings...

2 statements mutually exclusive of each other , but evididently both true... It means one thing at the first but then changes to another without reason... No wonder the meaning of words, ideas and concepts are so far fetched that nothing can be true, but everything can be true...

Exact Rototilling
09-27-2011, 11:12 PM
I will take some close up macro pics of true thatch fresh from my.own lawn....thanks to the prior occupant. It will be obvious what is tightly bound thatch vs incidental clippings. Need them.for my upcoming website anyhow.
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