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SPEEDSKI
09-23-2011, 11:40 PM
I am looking for some more information on equipment for systems using Lake Pumps around 10hp / 120 gpm. I am looking for better ways to run the lines, rather than solvent welded pvc pipe. The company doing the pump services now has been a total cluster F! Constant problems and blow outs, so we have been asked to take over and I need some good vendors. We already run a couple sites with Watertronics pump stations, but this is just a 10hp Berkley Submersible in a 6" casing with a 3" feeder line.

Any good places to find parts, fittings and lines is appreciated. I am even looking towards all flanged fittings since we will be doing a AMIAD TAF 750 filter also.

Thanks

Kiril
09-23-2011, 11:52 PM
A properly assembled solvent weld will last forever, or at least the life span of the PVC. Find someone competent.

Wet_Boots
09-23-2011, 11:58 PM
at 120 gpm, aren't you getting into gasketed connections, with thrust blocks, and all that good stuff?

SPEEDSKI
09-24-2011, 01:09 AM
A properly assembled solvent weld will last forever, or at least the life span of the PVC. Find someone competent.

We must be idiots? Why the hell have we been thrust blocking the 4" mainline on our sites with 120 GPM? All I needed was to have someone "competent" in solvent welding show us how it is really done! Thanks for the help Kiril!! J/K, but I am not here for a Glue School:)

Anyway

The line coming from the pump in the lake hits a stone retaining wall around the entire lake. There is a sleeve that penetrates through the wall and then it 90's up. It was sealed in about 10' down from finished grade to where our flow sensor, filter and PRV is set. The lake is now 2 ft. over that sleeve due to a bunch of rain and can be accessed with out pumping the lake down which could take weeks to do. The pump company tried an "under water glue" and it did not work. This is a large pump company, and when I heard about the under water weld I was sceptical, but I never claim to know everything. When they asked us to fire the pump to the system, it blew at the coupler where the glued in a coupling.....underwater! I am not kidding.

I have done large projects for this developer for over 10 years. They have asked us to take over and get the pump up and running. Last months water bill was $21,000 so they are finally done and pissed at the pump company.

I would like to see some vendors that carry soft pipe and hard pipe used for this type of pump install so I have some options to choose from. I know Firestone makes a somewhat flexible line, but I am having trouble finding a source. We have installed 200 plus pumps, but not one this large. Time is critical, so I am doing my research to see what choices we have.

The old way they changed the pump was to just cut the pvc line, pull pump, and the try to glue it again once serviced. The AMIAD filter comes with flanged joints, hence the reason I am looking to go this route. You cannot just buy these fittings any where, so again I just want to look around to see what choices we have and what is recommended.

Kiril
09-24-2011, 01:59 AM
We must be idiots? Why the hell have we been thrust blocking the 4" mainline on our sites with 120 GPM? All I needed was to have someone "competent" in solvent welding show us how it is really done! Thanks for the help Kiril!! J/K, but I am not here for a Glue School:)

At least your pump guys are idiots. ... as you have already stated. Thrust blocking has nothing to do with proper solvent welding. One would think if you are pushing that much water, thrust blocking would be a given .... guess not. Carry on sonny.

jvanvliet
09-24-2011, 08:13 AM
Have a site similar to that, centrifical pump though. We used SCD 40 wellcasing & Victaulic fittings, a lot faster to install than flanged and a lot more reliable than solvent welding. I'm guessing some people on this site have never had a solvent weld fail.

greenmonster304
09-24-2011, 08:47 AM
Not sure it applies but could you use HDPE with the fused joints. It is somwhat flexible.
Posted via Mobile Device

Wet_Boots
09-24-2011, 09:33 AM
I don't know if any of the flexible tubing used for pump suction will have the needed pressure rating. In a time crunch, you might need to use some kind of hose assembly, like those used for material transfer.

jvanvliet
09-24-2011, 11:05 AM
I don't understand the need for flex pipe to the suction side, how are you going to join it to your submersible and filter?

I take it your goal is not to pull the whole thing out of the water, right? Victaulic is ideal for submerged applications if you don't want to replace the entire vacuum line; you don't need to spend a long time underwater installing it, cutting the grove to the existing well casing & installing the fitting takes less time than installing & bolting a flange together (something I've never done without pulling everything out of the water). Once done, it'll be easy to service the pump & the filter later on.

Perhaps I'm not fully grasping the nature of the problem.

Sprinkus
09-24-2011, 01:02 PM
I wonder why they aren't using a mechanical fitting, like megalug (http://www.ebaa.com/index.php?page=PVC), instead of trying to glue a new fitting on.
Adapting the pipe to a flanged end with a restrained flange adapter (http://www.ebaa.com/index.php?page=2100) might make servicing easier.

jvanvliet
09-24-2011, 06:24 PM
I wonder why they aren't using a mechanical fitting, like megalug (http://www.ebaa.com/index.php?page=PVC), instead of trying to glue a new fitting on.
Adapting the pipe to a flanged end with a restrained flange adapter (http://www.ebaa.com/index.php?page=2100) might make servicing easier.

What you said;

BTW, those are awesome, does the pipe have to be flaired?

jvanvliet
09-24-2011, 06:29 PM
Never mind, I just found the product brochures. The stuff I learn on this site.

Wet_Boots
09-24-2011, 07:58 PM
Harco also makes mechanical joint restraints

SPEEDSKI
09-25-2011, 01:11 AM
Wet Boots and Sprinkus....Thank You, that is the information I was looking for and needed.

Kiril,

I was messing around with my post and I tried to make sure to throw smiley on it. Perhaps you were doing the same thing? I guess I assumed you read the post and understood that one of the problems was having to glue under water. The PVC line to the pump I was talking about was a solid pvc line from the initial install with only glue joints. No unions, no mechanical joints and it enter the shore through a stone wall. The only way to pull the pump was to cut the line with the possibility of having to perform the work under water. Yes, it was originally a solvent weld and it held (all installed before the lake was filled), but when they tried to re-install the pump line (which was a 6" pvc case with the 3" pvc pressure line inside) which basically required them to try and glue a pipe inside another pipe.They ended up cutting the 6" back so they could glue the 3". The lake is now at the same level where the pipe enters the sleeve in the retaining wall. There is no way to move this connection up to make proper glue joint. I never have seen or be able to get a good seal trying to glue line sitting half way in water....so it was no surprise it ended up blowing out.

Maybe you were just playing around also, but I am just confused at your replies. We run on average of 5 service trucks and 3 install crews, been in business for 15 years and have done about every type and size of irrigation system except a G.C. I am not a newbie and I tried to explain the issue as good as I could. I am not known for my writing skills, so maybe I just assumed to much. Too bad we butted heads on this one.

As far as using something flexible, it is not a must. I have just seen some pumps installed with a 4" black, reinforced, but flexible hose which seems like a good idea to allow for some movement. Thanks again to Sprinkus and Wet Boots, great information.

mitchgo
09-25-2011, 04:23 AM
It's always easier to say things outside the box and refer to 'textbook example' which almost always doesn't apply to re-world situations..

eh!

I have no experience with systems that require that much flow and large of diameter.

But if it was me...and these people came to me to and told me the other company isn't cutting it.. I think I would step up my game.. And my game means price and quality.. And if they can't handle that than they need to get back to the other company..

I'm here to do my job... and do it better then the others

Gasketed connections.. poly/ iron piping... thrust blocks.. The whole works

sprinkrus had a good reference to poly installation/repair that size (http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=330980&highlight=fusion)

SPEEDSKI
09-25-2011, 10:36 AM
Mitchgo, I agree and that is how we do business. One of the reasons we stopped doing pumps, was we constantly got under bid. It was easier to exclude the pump and liabilty which is how we spec'd this job when we assumed the maintenance contract. We did a good job turning everything else around, so now we are being asked to put out this fire. We will do it right and if they do not go for what we recommend and price, we will not do the work. I learned a long time ago, once you touch someone's else's problems they become your problems.

Sprinkus definatley has it figured out. We used to run a HDD rig before the economy tanked, used to watch the gas guy's fuse HDPE pipe all the time and it is a cool process.

The lake on this job has a wall all the way around the lake so there is no shore line. So pulling to pump requires a boat and the liner around the lake is getting damaged. The liner gets torn when they try to pull this beast in to work on it, which is another reason this whole set up needs to be redone.

It would have been nice to have a VFD Suction Lift Pump Station on this site and it could have made things a lot easier.

Kiril
09-25-2011, 11:16 AM
I wonder why they aren't using a mechanical fitting, like megalug (http://www.ebaa.com/index.php?page=PVC), instead of trying to glue a new fitting on.
Adapting the pipe to a flanged end with a restrained flange adapter (http://www.ebaa.com/index.php?page=2100) might make servicing easier.

Ditto. I believe ford meter box has similar type fittings.

http://www.fordmeterbox.com/products/productview.php?catSec=U

Wet_Boots
09-25-2011, 11:47 AM
for the OP's application, the simplest thing might be to get a gasketed iron elbow with the restraining ears, assuming he has to redo that 90-degree upward elbow

txgrassguy
09-27-2011, 10:23 AM
Ski, like the other guys posted - gasket flange type fittings are the way to join high demand high initial pressure systems.
I have had very good luck with HDPE pipe with fused couplings on several systems that were upwards of 800 gpm.
Also, you haven't mentioned what type of control is actually triggering the pump.
Is this set-up a VFD, constant pressure or an on demand?
Sounds to me that the initial pressure spike is causing problems. How is the control configured to address this?
Have you thought about dropping in a wet well so the pump is accessible regardless of water level? Initial cost would be a bit but future service is where the cost savings really add up.

SPEEDSKI
09-27-2011, 11:18 PM
TX

The site is a 2-wire system using a Tucor TWC. So basically they ran the wire path to the Control Box (Franklin Electric) and it fires from a single station (LD100) decoder set up as the master valve in the program. The system is designed to run zones 10 gpm to 60 gpm, 177 zones total.

10hp is in a 6" pvc casing that is run to the shore wall and a 3" mainline is inside the casing, runs through the wall (basically mortared in), 90's up 10' to final grade. The mainline from the pump goes to 2" Galvanized, to a 2" Cash Acme Pressure Reducing Valve, then to the flow sensor and then to a 2.5" mainline to all the zones. Now the 6" just dangles off the main in the lake since they had to cut it to remove the pump and to glue it back, they just left a section of the 6" off.

The PRV cracked recently and we pulled it. We replaced all the galvanized with Red Brass pipe, but we removed the PRV. Our price for the PRV is $1700.00 and I am not sure why they put it on to begin with? We wanted to test the system with a pressure gauge on it without the PRV as we have an average of 70 psi operating pressure with out it. The pump runs around 110 GPM and it runs good with our program. We had to run all the zones, figure all the GPM per zone, and then set up the program to run multiple zones to stay around 100-120 GPM. No filtration at all right now, which is why I want to add the Amiad TAF 750 Automatic Filter.

It is almost like the pump was an after thought based on the huge variation on zone sizes. Is there something I am missing with the PRV? We could save the developer some money with out it. I know they may have installed it to try and not blow lines when a smaller zone was run, but that is hell on the pump since it is set up as an all or nothing pump start with no cycle stop controls.

txgrassguy
09-28-2011, 10:18 AM
Ski, you don't need a cycle stop valve - what you need is a VFD controller and motor.
No reason to replace the pump end as long as it is still operating with-in the performance curve.
-OR-
You are going to have to hill-billy the section wiring by identifying total gpm per zones that are similar then slave those to the controller to operate near the rated capacity of the pump.
-OR-
Place a rather large pressure relief valve on the mainline adjacent to the water edge to dump the excess volume back into the water source.

Any way you look at the pump being set up for the "all or nothing start" to use your phrase, volume differential per section is going to seriously shorten the pump and motor usable life unless you do something to address the discrepancies.

The good thing about the VFD controllers are they have come way down in price. However, I have no idea what a 10hp controller and motor would cost but since you are stuck with correctly repairing what those hacks installed - you are stuck with a real maintenance headache unless you do something.

Personally, the hill-billy set-up is the absolute last thing I would suggest.

Price out the VFD controller and motor as well as the new pressure relief valve making sure the operating threshold is correct for your application (remember not all PRV's fit all applications) and inform the client accordingly. The good thing with the VFD is you usually will not require a PRV as long as the VFD is programmed for all 177 sections.

Regarding the PRV, if you go this route, make sure you have one that has: 1 - sufficient volume to handle excessive water when the smaller capacity section(s) operate (meaning the overflow discharge is at least three inches otherwise you'll have sharp pressure spikes causing shortened pipe/system components); 2 - has the ability to regulate the pressure without "fluttering" which is what happens when a pressure valve has the set-valve opened essentially all the way particularly when the PRV has the wrong operating pressure threshold.

Wet_Boots
09-28-2011, 10:49 AM
What about using some specialty valves? Maybe a Cla-Val PRV and relief could work.

What if the pump was operated by way of the flow sensor? And maybe a pressure tank added as a "shock absorber"

stebs
09-28-2011, 06:57 PM
What about using some specialty valves? Maybe a Cla-Val PRV and relief could work.

What if the pump was operated by way of the flow sensor? And maybe a pressure tank added as a "shock absorber"


Ditto, although base it off pressure...

Get yourself one of these (minus the spider of course :laugh: )....
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-J6VBwGqLi_o/ToOTlcWzOVI/AAAAAAAAAAs/SmeAMy1isQM/s640/vfd.jpg

System runs off pressure and has a Cla valve relief valve to handle excess pressure when zones shut down while the pumps throttle back.

Wet_Boots
09-28-2011, 07:05 PM
If a VFD isn't in the picture, a Cla-Val PRV would do the same thing as a Cycle-Stop Valve. There had to be workable combinations of valves and sensors/switches in common practice, before the VFD's of today.