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JFGauvreau
09-24-2011, 11:56 AM
Anyway to remove clover and creeping charlie in a organic way?

I have some lawns that the creeping charlie is taking over the lawn. I know that KBG can outgrow the charlie, eventually giving enough shade to the creeping charlie to kill it. But if you have patches that are covered in 80%+ of creeping charlie or clover, it's really hard for the grass to compete with these kind of weeds.

Any tips or tricks you guys have?

Smallaxe
09-24-2011, 07:58 PM
KBG will always lose against CC... remove with an iron garden rake regularly throughout the season and you may get lucky...

Clover should be uprooted as individual plants... just pretend you're in the gym, and the exercise is for flexibility training... good luck...

JFGauvreau
09-24-2011, 08:07 PM
I believe a great healthy and thick KBG lawn doesn't loose against weeds, it only loose if their is weak spots on the turf, were the CC can infiltrate.

The problem is home owners not watering their lawn, cutting to short, eventually leaving a weak lawn. But ya like you said, rake it up would be the best I guess.

Thanks.

TheLawnGuy01
01-02-2012, 12:54 PM
I realize this is a strange time to be offering my insight into your creeping charlie question, however this may help you moving into the upcoming season.

I have had great success using Fiesta on creeping charlie and clover. Sometimes though you have to adjust, adapt and evolve into your own methods to make the product work the way you need it to work. Following the mixing directions and the repeat application suggestions works fine for general applications. When the lawn seems to be 80%-99% overgrown with weeds increase the Fiesta concentration by 10%. Instruct the customer to water the affected areas for at least an hour the evening before you apply and don't plan an application if rain is forecasted within 24 hours of the application. Because you've increased the concentration you'll notice a rusting discolouration, this will fade and eventually be cut when mowing. This will kill 50%-80% of the weeds but because of the large amount of weeds you'll see a lot of new growth plus you will have missed some spots when spraying. Repeat the spraying process 2 weeks after the first spray. You will be pleasantly surprised with how quickly the existing turf spreads into the previously inhabited CC and Clover areas.

Fiesta recommends retreating after 4 weeks or more but I've discovered that because of the rapid spreading of the creeping charlie that in 4+ weeks a large amount of the creeping charlie will have filled back in.

To summarize:

1) Pre-soak
2) Increase concentration
3) NO post watering or rain for 24 hours
4) Repeat in 2 weeks

phasthound
01-02-2012, 04:36 PM
I realize this is a strange time to be offering my insight into your creeping charlie question, however this may help you moving into the upcoming season.

I have had great success using Fiesta on creeping charlie and clover. Sometimes though you have to adjust, adapt and evolve into your own methods to make the product work the way you need it to work. Following the mixing directions and the repeat application suggestions works fine for general applications. When the lawn seems to be 80%-99% overgrown with weeds increase the Fiesta concentration by 10%. Instruct the customer to water the affected areas for at least an hour the evening before you apply and don't plan an application if rain is forecasted within 24 hours of the application. Because you've increased the concentration you'll notice a rusting discolouration, this will fade and eventually be cut when mowing. This will kill 50%-80% of the weeds but because of the large amount of weeds you'll see a lot of new growth plus you will have missed some spots when spraying. Repeat the spraying process 2 weeks after the first spray. You will be pleasantly surprised with how quickly the existing turf spreads into the previously inhabited CC and Clover areas.

Fiesta recommends retreating after 4 weeks or more but I've discovered that because of the rapid spreading of the creeping charlie that in 4+ weeks a large amount of the creeping charlie will have filled back in.

To summarize:

1) Pre-soak
2) Increase concentration
3) NO post watering or rain for 24 hours
4) Repeat in 2 weeks

Good tip. But just to be clear, in the US Fiesta is registered as a Bio-herbicide and requires a pesticide license to apply professionally. It is not considered organic, but it does have a lower toxicity rating than chemical herbicides.

Ohio State University did field trials this summer and gave Fiesta positive reviews even with lower than label rates. The 2012 label will have lower rates for blanket treatments.

RigglePLC
01-02-2012, 06:58 PM
Creeping charlie is at home in shade. Kentucky bluegrass is at a disadvantage in those situations.

Clover as a legume produces its own nitrogen. It does best where the lawn is underfertilized. So...lawns that are heavily fertilized will crowd it out...not likely right away, I suspect.

Be sure to overseed often with a highly rhizomatous dense type of bluegrass. One of the athletic field types...dense...thatch-forming. Such grasses have the best chance of crowding out weeds. Look for a type that can be cut short--as some weeds cannot withstand short cut.

Langara is a good choice.
http://pickseed.com/usa/Products/PDF/langara_ts.pdf

HayBay
01-02-2012, 10:22 PM
When the lawn is at 80%-99% overgrown with weeds a 1 time fertilizer application will make a difference in weed reduction.

Off label usage with fiesta will solve our problems. I doubt it.

Phasthound, This is not a personal attack but give up on the fiesta, its been tested extensively here. It doesnt kill weeds. It knocks them back and they regrow within weeks. Fiesta is a great product if you have to no other options but hand picking. That is if you can afford it. Pitching Spot spraying with a green up product is funny, using a lower rate is not going to work unless you apply every 2 weeks for the year (off label).

phasthound
01-02-2012, 11:25 PM
Phasthound, This is not a personal attack but give up on the fiesta, its been tested extensively here. It doesnt kill weeds. It knocks them back and they regrow within weeks. Fiesta is a great product if you have to no other options but hand picking. That is if you can afford it. Pitching Spot spraying with a green up product is funny, using a lower rate is not going to work unless you apply every 2 weeks for the year (off label).

Haybay, I don't take your statement as a personal attack. You are attacking a product.

But I have had a different experience when using Fiesta than you. It has worked very well on dandelions & clover, my 2 main targets. I recently attended a lecture where Dr. Linde, director of Turf Management Studies at Delaware Valley College rated Fiesta very good on weed control and turf quality. His charts showed Fiesta to be almost as effective as several chemical controls. The OSU study I mentioned should be published soon. The lower rate worked with 2 applications about 4 weeks apart.

HayBay
01-03-2012, 12:07 PM
We have given up on going to turf related lectures here lately, promoting products from suppliers that fund the lecturer is bad enough with synthetics, its even worse with Natural or Organic Bio-Pesticides.

Neudorff put out a chart comparing Fiesta to Killex. It said the same thing, very comparable results.

That was not how it worked out in the field.

We have seen a drop by 50% in Licensed Landscape Exterminators registered in Ontario since the Pesticide Ban.

We have had access to Fiesta longer than in the USA.
Fiesta is our only option for dandelion (chemical option)
I highly doubt there is a secret with using this product that Ontario cannot figure out.

Don't get me wrong, a lawn treated with Fiesta does look better than a lawn that is ignored. But a regular fertilizing program will get you a decent lawn if you don't mind a percentage of weed cover.

Fiesta can be used acceptably on postage size properties. But hand weeding those properties is just as comparable and much cheaper.

RigglePLC
01-03-2012, 12:24 PM
Some weeds cannot stand short mowing. Some weeds are crowded out by tall mowing. Possibly some weeds can be controlled with short mowing at certain seasons of the year.

What is your experience? Local recommendations?

What grass types are weed resistant?

What watering schedules?

organiclawncanada
01-03-2012, 03:35 PM
We have given up on going to turf related lectures here lately, promoting products from suppliers that fund the lecturer is bad enough with synthetics, its even worse with Natural or Organic Bio-Pesticides.

Neudorff put out a chart comparing Fiesta to Killex. It said the same thing, very comparable results.

That was not how it worked out in the field.

We have seen a drop by 50% in Licensed Landscape Exterminators registered in Ontario since the Pesticide Ban.

We have had access to Fiesta longer than in the USA.
Fiesta is our only option for dandelion (chemical option)
I highly doubt there is a secret with using this product that Ontario cannot figure out.

Don't get me wrong, a lawn treated with Fiesta does look better than a lawn that is ignored. But a regular fertilizing program will get you a decent lawn if you don't mind a percentage of weed cover.

Fiesta can be used acceptably on postage size properties. But hand weeding those properties is just as comparable and much cheaper.

I have to agree with Haybay. We in Ontario have tried Fiesta for 2 years with very mixed results.

HayBay
01-04-2012, 12:08 AM
Riggles,

We don't short mow. 3.5 inches to 4 for all our lawns. We cut taller than any of our competition or homeowners. It is a challenge to have customers accept these cutting heights but it does make a difference for weed supression and irrigation requirements.
Cool season Turf. Zone 5-6

I am embarassed to say, but we hand pull the wild carrot and chicory to name a few, the mower just doesn't cut them down, even after 2 passes.

Although I do not view myself as attacking the Product as Phasthound mentions I do see that the misinformed (activists and salesmen) are attacking our industry, I am just standing up for the silent majority of Landscape Exterminators that have been affected by this non sense.

OrganicLawnCanada, you could have stayed silent but you chose to support my remarks, Thanks.

I once again am not attacking you in my remarks Phasthound, but I do think that because of your great P.R. work you are a possible avenue to help spread the word that people like Paul Tukey and Chip Osborne may be wrong. You may not see this yet, but I will keep encouraging you.

phasthound
01-04-2012, 03:44 PM
[QUOTE=HayBay;
I once again am not attacking you in my remarks Phasthound, but I do think that because of your great P.R. work you are a possible avenue to help spread the word that people like Paul Tukey and Chip Osborne may be wrong. You may not see this yet, but I will keep encouraging you.[/QUOTE]

Haybay,
Just to make my position clear; I believe


the turf industry relies far too heavily on chemical pesticides.
the current over-usage of pesticides in the landscape is a valid cause for concern regarding health and environmental issues.
many insect, weed and disease problems can be minimized without the use of pesticides.
sound cultural methods combined with building soil health are the foundation of turf management.
there are some valid uses in the landscape for pesticides under certain circumstances.
much more education should be required regarding the hazards of pesticides.
pesticides should only be applied in the landscape by trained professionals and not the general public.



Health and environmental concerns are more important than weed control.

HayBay
01-04-2012, 05:30 PM
Health and environmental concerns are more important than weed control.


Obviously we are all concerned about the environment health and safety first.
Try using that line in the pesticide forum and see the response you get.

But fearmongering will not be an excuse to sell products.

Please review what our government says about lawn pesticides.
The EPA and PMRA merge their resources and continue to do so.

Pesticides registered for use on lawns are perfectly safe for pregnant women, children and the environment when label directions are followed.

If you follow directions on a bottle of aspirin you could be in danger.
If you use a steak knife improperly when cutting meat you could be in danger.
If you do not follow instructions on how to set up a ladder before use, you could be in danger.

Your (Jay Feldman, Chip Osborne, Paul Tukey) opinion on the safety of Pesticides is where the problem is. You are not qualified to dismiss the 350 government scientists in Canada that say products like 2,4-D are safe.

You also coincidentally sell products you claim are safer and just as effective. This is a big red flag for me.

a) Is it safe to use the herbicide 2,4-D on my lawn?

Following extensive consultation and scientific review using the most current scientific methods, Health Canada has determined that 2,4-D meets Canada's strict health and safety standards, and as such can be used safely when label directions are followed. Health Canada's review concurs with the findings of regulators in other OECD countries, including the United States, European Union, New Zealand and the World Health Organization.

Are my pets safe if they walk on a lawn that has been treated with pesticides?

Potential exposure may occur if pets are allowed on the treated lawn before the pesticide residue has been allowed to dry. They may be exposed through contact with their paws, licking of their bodies, or through eating grass. In order to minimize exposure, after treating your lawn, it is important to follow the label instructions as well as the instructions given to you by your lawn care professional, and restrict pets from the treated lawn until it has dried. No harm is expected, but avoiding exposures whenever possible is recommended.

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/cps-spc/pest/faq-eng.php#whya


b) Dow Settles with Quebec regarding safety of 2,4-D : Safe to use

http://www.dowagro.com/ca/pdfs/Dow_AgroSciences_LLC_and_Government_of_Canada_settle_NAFTA_claim_May_2011.pdf

c) Statistics, Opportunities and Advocacy for Nonessential Pesticide Use

http://sirepub.edmonton.ca/sirepub/view.aspx?cabinet=published_meetings&fileid=113174

Once again I am not trying to attack you personally.

90 percent of pesticides used are in our food. how can the 1% of usage in lawns save the world.
Homeowners use a domestic version of pesticide that are prediluted, there is no issue with what you are eluding to.
There is no soil health in a gravel driveway or walkway. Weeds still need to be controlled.

phasthound
01-04-2012, 07:03 PM
But I'm not out to save the world or force my opinions on anyone. There are risks and benefits with any course of action.

RigglePLC
01-04-2012, 10:09 PM
Haybay and Garveau and our Canadian neighbors: Just HOW accepting are your customers and neighbors--of weeds in their yards? Are a few dandelions or patches of clover and ground ivy acceptable nowadays? Even on golf courses? Are they willing to pay extra for hand weeding?

Is tall mowing best to reduce all species of weeds or are there some that my be killed by short mowing? Short in fall--tall in spring?

HayBay
01-04-2012, 11:00 PM
RigglePLC,

As I stated earlier 50% of Licensed Operators have given up their licenses.
Customers are going to the USA to buy pesticides as the border will not stop them from bringing products back as long as they are in their original packaging.

Customers are hand weeding their own lawns (very small lawns)
or they just ignore their lawn now. Hack it down as low as it can go and thats the end of it.

Cutting the lawn short is more trouble than help regarding weed control at any time of the year.

Nobody wants to pay extra for anything, except the exclusive homes we have.
A lawn with irrigation will look better than one without.

Most lawns look like crap unless they are treated with fiesta off label, every 2 weeks for the year. Or sprayed by homeowners with banned pesticides at a fraction of the cost

Golf Courses are exempt from the ban, so are nurseries and sod farms.

Crabgrass, grubs and chinch bugs are bad. Nematodes, Corn Gluten failures.

The Ministry of the Environment comes down very hard on Licensed operators from everything to illegal apps to the wrong size sign.

The Ministry of the Environment does not do a thing about homeowner violating the ban
.

Look at sod farmers, prove soil and plant health works with them then bring it to the consumer. That doesnt happen, because its not possible.

There are no natural, successful sod farms, nurseries, golf courses here.

Weedman picks up dumpters, cuts lawns, hangs christmas decor to supplement. They are down from 6 trucks to 2 as an example.

If this sounds like a horror story, it is.

If you don't fight back you will see first hand shortly.

Kiril
01-04-2012, 11:07 PM
Look mommy ..... clover in the lawn ..... is the world coming to an end? :cry:

HayBay
01-04-2012, 11:25 PM
Oh well as long as your ok Kiril.

Smallaxe
01-05-2012, 10:36 AM
Haybay,
Just to make my position clear; I believe


the turf industry relies far too heavily on chemical pesticides.
the current over-usage of pesticides in the landscape is a valid cause for concern regarding health and environmental issues.
many insect, weed and disease problems can be minimized without the use of pesticides.
sound cultural methods combined with building soil health are the foundation of turf management.
there are some valid uses in the landscape for pesticides under certain circumstances.
much more education should be required regarding the hazards of pesticides.
pesticides should only be applied in the landscape by trained professionals and not the general public.



Health and environmental concerns are more important than weed control.


I agree to a large extent with the list except no. 7... After seeing what Pros do with chemical i.e., over apply for the extra bucks, I believe that a cigarette tax be put on the pesticides and force the homeowner into thrift...

Spot spraying is now something that Ontario would be willing to do right now, I bet... We just blanket every lawn twice a year(w/post emergant) whether the lawn needs it or not... And twice a year with pre-m, no matter how far North we go...

Beyond that, the pros also dump ferts and things on frozen ground and ground that is still saturated with Spring erosions... And they will NOT be dissuaded, becuz they really don't know enough about how plants function and the best way of utilizing the processes of the plants themselves...

HayBay
01-05-2012, 11:43 AM
agricultural sulfur and copper usage are through the roof in 2010.

The organic industry is a tiny fraction of actual food production, say 5%.

Could you imagine the amount of copper and sulfur (bourdeau mix) we would need to satisfy 100% organic production for a problem like powdery mildew.

Using 1 oz of 2,4-D to treat 1000 sq ft of lawn compared to 28 oz of fiesta for the same 1000 sq foot lawn, doesn't seem like reducing our pesticide usage loads to me. Especially when you have to reapply fiesta 5-8 times a year for suppression only.

Why are we trying to provide a working model of plant and soil health with lawns, why not start in the farmers field or sod farm?
I know why.

Smallaxe
01-06-2012, 11:02 AM
agricultural sulfur and copper usage are through the roof in 2010.

The organic industry is a tiny fraction of actual food production, say 5%.

Could you imagine the amount of copper and sulfur (bourdeau mix) we would need to satisfy 100% organic production for a problem like powdery mildew.

Using 1 oz of 2,4-D to treat 1000 sq ft of lawn compared to 28 oz of fiesta for the same 1000 sq foot lawn, doesn't seem like reducing our pesticide usage loads to me. Especially when you have to reapply fiesta 5-8 times a year for suppression only.

Why are we trying to provide a working model of plant and soil health with lawns, why not start in the farmers field or sod farm?
I know why.

Plant health and soil health aren't that difficult to work into the cultural practices of either lawn care or farming... It is the problem of special interests that muddy the waters and confuse the issue that create a disconnect between basic botany and understanding the field...

As far as pesticides are concerned, that is most easily typified by overuse, such as spraying 3 acres of ground to get 3 dandelions... Grass doesn't allow much intrusion, but we never produce a mature lawn that would be great with 5 minutes of Spot Spraying, but we never produce that kind of lawn...

Imagine if everyone was responsible in their use of pesticides, would the gov't have any excuse to create a black market???

alanauer
01-25-2012, 01:55 PM
Where do you Ontario guys get your Fiesta?