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Waltb
10-09-2011, 07:46 PM
Homeowner here seeking some advice from you guys…I would like some opinions on retaining wall material. We’ve had 23 tree’s (Bradford pear and pine) and numerous old shrubs removed in the past two months. We’ve started planting new material and will finish the front yard and plantings along the fence in a few weeks.

I’m torn on what material to use for the wall. Do we go with the manufactured blocks that seem to last for years without worry of cracking??? We’re not thrilled with the look, BUT once everything is planted around the pool and mature a couple years will you really see it? I have two friends in the landscape industry (one with engineering degree) that will install the wall so it will be built correctly. The highest point is 41” and my friend said he would still like to use a couple layers of geogrid just because…..He is pushing Diamond Pro stone face but again…I’m just not sure so that’s why I’m here.

I like the look of stucco and stone but do these walls last as long as the manufactured blocks? I know it’s all about installation but this is where I would have to find someone since I don’t know anyone that would build this type of wall. I’m guessing as long as a liner is used behind the cinder block that would help with moisture issue…rebar should help with stability, etc…

And then there is classic brick which I think may fit our landscape best but is it “old school??? Is brick too much since our house is brick??? I would face the same issue as the stucco wall since this would be applied to the block.

We may be adding additional decking as the plan shows but that will happen later next year. If you’re wondering about the blue paint, that was not us…haha We’ve been here since May 2010 and we think blue was the previous owners favorite color but that too will be changed along with the tile..too many projects with this house!!

Also, our yard is fenced but we will eventually need a fence around the pool when we start a family, which should be next year if everything goes as planned. Our designer planned for the fence to be installed on top of the wall. I’ve seen products for this purpose (SLEEVE-IT or just a cylinder form for the concrete to be installed.

What do you think?

Front after tree/shrub removal

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n84/wbreedlove/1-1.jpg

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n84/wbreedlove/2-2.jpg

When we moved in

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n84/wbreedlove/3-1.jpg

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n84/wbreedlove/4-1.jpg


Now…

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n84/wbreedlove/5.jpg

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n84/wbreedlove/6.jpg


Idea’s

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n84/wbreedlove/diamondprostonecutclose.jpg

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n84/wbreedlove/stone_work_006.jpg


The plan

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n84/wbreedlove/front.jpg

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n84/wbreedlove/back.jpg

DVS Hardscaper
10-09-2011, 08:16 PM
The choice of wall material is entirely up to you.

Yes, with my company we primarily install segmental block. However, I am not a huge fan of it, in terms of using it for a residential application. It is very lego'ey looking.

Natural stone will give you the most beauty. If installed correctly, it will last forever. Being you're in SC, you do not have cold temps and freezing and thawing to worry about. Ask yourself this: What kind of look does charleston have? Legos or old world?

Also, you have the pool. And the money you're investing is centered on that pool. Some stuff to think about:

1) How old are your kids? If your kids are over 16 years in age - your peak pool usage days are about history.

2) How old are you? Once people approach retirement age - they start traveling, busy contending with health issues, and no longer desire to have the pool anymore.

Pools are like indoor aquariums. They require maintenance and after a while become a nuisance. Older pools are notorious for hindering the sale of the property, even when in great condition.

So, even though you didn't ask - make sure YOU REALLY WANT THAT POOL before you invest money centered on it. Think long and hard about the future.

A few short years ago I had a client spend $40k with us to landscape and hardscape around their pool. Last I heard - they stopped opening the pool (we have winter here), kids went off to college. It's a real shame, $40k wasted. They'll probably end up having us remove the pool.

Waltb
10-09-2011, 08:47 PM
Thanks for the response DVS! Very good questions! I've enjoyed reading your posts for the past couple of years (yes I'm a lurker..haha)

We're a couple in our early 30's that purchased the house last year and one of the reasons we purchased it, was the pool. We currently don't have any children but that will change next year..We've been waiting on the wife to finish grad school.

The house and pool were built in 1986 and it was a distress sell in a desirable neighborhood so we jumped on it. It's been a whirlwind the past 1 1/2 years updating the interior since there was 3200 sqft of 1986 to update but we're done with everything except the four bathrooms.

I am very conscientious of the value of our home, the money invested and market conditions and we're still ahead of the game by around 20k from my guestimate. Of course, who knows what the market would bring but we have no plans to sell any time soon.

The pool was replastered and new decking with permacrete four years ago and all pool equipment is only two years old.

As stated in my original post, I am very fortunate to have friends in the industry so I'm able to purchase everything at their cost. I'm an IT guy so I'm always helping them..pay it forward is what I'm all about.

To finish up the front yard plantings and the privacy line in the back (Little Gems and Ligustrums) with mulch and irrigation work should run around 3,200 (B&B material no more than $90 for tree's and $50 for Ligustrums) and I have 6,500 budgeted for the wall which can be increased if necessary. The wall is 109' long, 41" at the highest point so hopefully we can stay within budget. Of course, if we incorporate the columns throughout the wall and fence line that will increase so we'll see.

bigslick7878
10-09-2011, 09:08 PM
and I have 6,500 budgeted for the wall which can be increased if necessary. The wall is 109' long, 41" at the highest point so hopefully we can stay within budget. Of course, if we incorporate the columns throughout the wall and fence line that will increase so we'll see.

The only way you are building a wall that size for that amount is if you build it yourself. 400 sq feet material alone will cost you about $5k if not more. Blocks, backfill, geogrid, drainage, caps etc it all adds up.

shovelracer
10-09-2011, 09:15 PM
I am not a fan of the diamond wall stone, although the stone cut is the nicest of the 3 choices IMO. There are fancier choices like Belgard Belair just as an example that will be closer to a natural look. Modulars will be your cheapest option. What you can do it cut the wall sides off and just landscape the slope, then have a nicer wall straight back at the tallest point and push it back in an arch to create more pool level space. Something like this _/ \_

DVS Hardscaper
10-09-2011, 09:24 PM
Waltb - you have a sturdy, beautiful home.

With that said, if you and the Mrs like the look of natural stone - then do the natural stone. It will compliment the home perfectly.

The Legos - they'll fade. (I call man made block Legos) And I dont think they'll compliment the home to it's potential.

I studied the pool, thought it looked like it had new plaster. (we spend alot of time around pools). The pool will make a great place for kids, birthday parties, adult parties, etc. So go for it, make it a nice backyard!



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DVS Hardscaper
10-09-2011, 09:36 PM
if you go the stone route - try to find a stone mason to do the wall, someone that does stonework every day.

Waltb
10-09-2011, 09:43 PM
bislick7878 - Yes, if we go with manufactured block, it will be constructed with very little labor costs.

If we use the stone cut in the upgraded variegated color I was quoted -

Large - 7.46
Medium - 6.02
Small - 2.50
Cap - 4.72

I'm not sure how these prices compare, not asking, but I'm hoping when my friend makes the purchase they will be cheaper. I was told the blocks from 36 sqft to a pallet.

I can purchase CMU's for .76 from a local concrete company.

shovelracer - Good idea about the slope..I need to give that more thought. I'm still trying to figure out an economical way to fence the pool without breaking the bank.

I think I'm going to add a second door to our screened porch coming straight out to the pool in the middle. There is already concrete at that location (grill there for now) and if I do that, I will have a door for the pool area that can be locked down to keep children and dogs out. I will just need to have a fence around the pool up that meets the porch.

DVS Hardscaper
10-09-2011, 10:26 PM
since your house is brick, have you considered veneering CMU with brick?

,

Waltb
10-09-2011, 10:41 PM
DVS - Yes, we are thinking hard about brick right now. I hope to have a two quotes this week from full-time masons. We are lucky in that we live 1/4 mile from a brick manufacturer and every few weeks they have a "yard sale" where they sell the under/over fired, excess stock, etc... for great deals. I'm not sure if they manufacture veneer but I've had co-workers purchase their brick for various projects at a very deep discount.

If we did go with brick we could add a few designs in the wall that should look classy. The wife isn't so sure about the brick with the tropical feel we're going for around the pool but I think it will be fine. We could add the brick columns with the black aluminum fence that would look very nice. I like brick over the lego's and my guess is the stone is going to cost at least twice what we've budgeted so that won't happen at this time.

DVS Hardscaper
10-09-2011, 11:16 PM
if the dwelling had vinyl siding, then legos wouldn't be so bad.

Most of the wall will be blocked by plantings. you're only going to see the wall for the first 24-30 months. With that said, I'm not so sure I'd put much of a "tropical" focus on the wall.

on the other hand Stucco-ing the wall will give it a nice Jamaica vacation resort feel. Along with nice specimen plantings with uplighting.



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Waltb
10-11-2011, 09:25 PM
Well, after looking at pics the last two days I think we're going to go with brick or brick & stucco. I found some brick that matches our house so now I'm wondering if that's too much?? I love the whitewash look and wonder if we should chose something different so it's not so matchy matchy...

I'm also not sure how the more formal look will go with our current plan in the back yard. We love the tropical feel of the palm, banana, hibiscus, etc... but I'm not not sure how it will look. We also love the encore azalea and knock-outs which would be pretty.

I did get pricing on brick today and it wasn't as bad as I thought, 1,700 for brick, block and mortar.

Here are a couple remodel shots so you can see our "style". I enlisted another online community during these transformations and we are very satisfied.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n84/wbreedlove/P1020812.jpg

Can't find the real finished photo but you get the idea

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n84/wbreedlove/P1060142.jpg

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n84/wbreedlove/P1060335.jpg

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n84/wbreedlove/P1060341.jpg


http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n84/wbreedlove/P1060729-1.jpg

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n84/wbreedlove/P1060714.jpg

Here are a couple walls that I really like

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n84/wbreedlove/brickwall.jpg

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n84/wbreedlove/stuckbrick2.jpg

bigslick7878
10-11-2011, 10:18 PM
Man it is so hard when you have all that brick already there and no siding. I would try to figure out some way to add a little variety rather than all brick for the walls, I have seen designs like this and it usually is just too much brick when done. The columns are a good idea, just to change it up here and there.

I might be a little biased because the job we just finished has a brand new house right across the street that is brick EVERYWHERE and it is just too much. WAY too much. I am going back up there for odds and and ends Friday and if I remember I will take a pic.

But honestly for your situation I can't think of too many other matching/aesthetically pleasing choices other than brick.

The pic above also shows exactly what I get scared about when working with brick, workmanship issues. The arch on that closest inlay is terrible.

DVS Hardscaper
10-11-2011, 11:37 PM
The new couch looks uncomfortable. Very.

DVS Hardscaper
10-11-2011, 11:40 PM
if brickwork is done tactfully, i do not think it'll be too much.

do some inlays, stuff like that.

and again....also.....do not forget that in 18 -24 months the plants will block the brick. I assure you of that. People stress over things like this, when in 30 months everything they was stressing about doesnt even matter anymore.

Mortor color. People make a big production bout selecting mortar color. give it 10 years and it's washed out anyway from the sun.


,



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DVS Hardscaper
10-11-2011, 11:46 PM
oh! alotta grey and black inside your house. Life has so much to offer, good lord get some cheery color in there!

with all those dark colors tell your wife that I said your kid(s) will grow up gloomy and will never smile. I love grey, wanted to paint our bedroom grey, but experts say its a dreary color.

Waltb
10-12-2011, 09:21 AM
Yeah, we're working on adding some color. There is a second couch on the wall facing the fireplace with a nice painting with many colors. There are different items on the bookshelves, pillows on the couch, but we still need to find drapes. I've purchased a few sets but they didn't work..yes, I'm picky..haha

Okay, I talked to Mr. Mason #1 last night. He is coming over Saturday to talk about design and provide a quote. He's been in the masonry business for 30 years and works with his son. He handles brick, stone, concrete, etc... He has a website with pics but it's not up (red flag?) for whatever reason right now.

Anyway, I asked him how he would build the wall since I'm an anal IT guy and try to read for days to educate myself on a subject and not get screwed. He would build the wall with 8" block and then face with brick on a 1' footer. He would use rebar and fill the cavity of the blocks with concrete. He said we wouldn't have any issues built in this manner. I would have my landscape friends come over to take care of the drainage and backfill.

I've been trying to find precast concrete caps just to compare and the brick company quoted $30 foot! I guess I'm back to a solid brick header but I will continue to call around today.

DVS Hardscaper
10-12-2011, 10:33 AM
Ok.
Masons.
Different world.

There are some good masons out there.
Fact: most of them are not businessmen.
Fact: 98% are not designers
Fact: 92% are alcoholics

In terms of design for brick, best thing to do is either you come up with a design or pay an architect to design it.

Once there is a design, a good mason will be able to do it.

As far as website, most masons work for builders and general contractors, they do not have to sell or market themselves like a Paver patio contractor does. They do not need a website.

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Waltb
10-13-2011, 05:21 PM
Well, I had a meeting at lunch but he doesn't handle brick...he plays with lego's but also builds block walls with stone, veneer or even a colored scratch coat.

We're not sure how a stone veneer would fit with our overall landscape. Scratch coat is the cheapest (of course) but I still have myself convinced it needs to be good looking. Well, the wife is pushing this issue. I know 80% of it will be covered in a couple years so I don't know if it's worth saving 1500-2000 for something that we want to last as long as possible since we don't plan on moving. He left me with a rough estimate of 10-12 sqft for scratch coat (this is turn key - backfill/drainage, etc...) but will provide exact quote tomorrow.

The wall is only 3' high. I think I wrote a note of 4' to myself to calculate materials but I didn't know what I was doing so we're looking at 300 sqft of visible wall. I could understand spending more by adding designs to whatever we chose if it was larger and more visible...I try to gain as much knowledge as possible before wasting anyone's time if it's going to be too much money.

Sorry for rambling!!! We need to make a decision in the next two weeks so we'll see.

Mason #2 coming out this evening to quote brick.

Waltb
10-13-2011, 09:29 PM
Just in case anyone is following, the saga continues!

Mason quote $3,500 labor. He was very informative and friendly (ended up knowing same people). This also includes demo and removal of old wall. He will dig 14" footing 8" deep. Said if I thought the charge was high to understand the amount of prep work that needs to be done for proper footing, rebar, etc.. He will install weep holes using 2" PVC.

The only thing I didn't like was he recommended using sand for the back fill. From what I've read, I should use a perforated pipe with gravel behind the wall but he said that wasn't necessary.

He works with his son and has two laborers and said it would take 5-6 days to complete. I guess it's a little more than I thought it would be BUT what do I know. I understand everyone has to make a living and he has four people to cover. When I told him I had one last person coming he made the statement that he really needs work and started to say he may negotiate and then stopped. From a consumers standpoint, I was a little uncomfortable because I don't want to take away from anyone. I want to pay a fair price for the work specified so that everyone is happy. So we're right at 6k for a 300 sqft brick retaining wall.

We'll see what mason #3 comes back with Saturday.

DVS Hardscaper
10-13-2011, 11:50 PM
Having spent 2 years struggeling I feel the man's pain.

If you go with number 2, you can make his week by paying him $3500 in CASH (american currency). Just have him give you receipts.


you damn home owners and getting your multiple quotes! I just coordinated a new roof (plywood and shingles) on my mothers house that was executed last weekend - done with 1 phone call and never saw the guy before in my life! :) I could never call multiple people for one thing :)
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Waltb
10-14-2011, 08:59 AM
DVS - $3500 is his profit since I am purchasing everything. Whoever we select will be paid in cash since that's how I've always handled these situations.

My friend recently had his shop underpinned, two porches, steps, etc... with brick. There were 11 cubes (5720 brick) and around 500 8x8x16 block and he paid $2500 labor. I'm looking at 1650 brick and 330 block. I know this isn't apples to apples and I'm asking to slope the grade variation, no 90's which takes some skill (I assume)

In my defense about multiple quotes - I was taken for 6k this year by two sub-contractors. My new rule is I get three quotes, call references and do a little research online to become an informed consumer. I understand you guys are professionals and I'll never have the ability or imagination to do your job but I want to make sure it will be done correctly at a fair price.

Bru75
10-14-2011, 09:56 AM
DVS - $3500 is his profit since I am purchasing everything. Whoever we select will be paid in cash since that's how I've always handled these situations.

My friend recently had his shop underpinned, two porches, steps, etc... with brick. There were 11 cubes (5720 brick) and around 500 8x8x16 block and he paid $2500 labor. I'm looking at 1650 brick and 330 block. I know this isn't apples to apples and I'm asking to slope the grade variation, no 90's which takes some skill (I assume)

In my defense about multiple quotes - I was taken for 6k this year by two sub-contractors. My new rule is I get three quotes, call references and do a little research online to become an informed consumer. I understand you guys are professionals and I'll never have the ability or imagination to do your job but I want to make sure it will be done correctly at a fair price.

Nothing wrong with getting a few different price quotes, although if there are more than two others I wouldn't even be interested. I actually like it when consumers do their research - fewer dumb questions that way.

It appears that the price difference between your wall and your friends various jobs is that your guy will be tearing out an old wall and starting the new one from scratch, from the footing up. More labor.

The number of bricks used is really not the best way to compare. There are many variables that have to be considered.

To be fair to the guy, you have no way of knowing that "$3500 is his profit". You have to subtract what he is paying his laborers, what he is paying himself, and his overhead. You might be surprised at how little of this actually ends up being his profit. Obviously, I don't know about this dude, but I actually charge more for labor only, because I depend on the material markup to help recover overhead.

I don't like the sand as backfill idea, did he tell you what kind of sand he has in mind? Concrete sand will eventually drain but still holds water and gets really heavy when wet. He might be looking for a way to get rid of his leftover masonry sand. Masonry sand would be even worse. It sounds like he might be trying to avoid having to get another material (3/4" clean stone) brought in.

Sorry to be rambling, but it's raining here so I have to much time on my hands.

Good luck with the wall and keep us posted as it is built.

DVS Hardscaper
10-14-2011, 10:18 AM
$3500.
ok now you're sounding like a typical home owner. :(

Presuming stuff.

That is not his profit. He has fuel to cover. Employee wages. Payroll taxes. Unemployment taxes. Phone bill. Liability and workers comp insurance. Vehicle expenses.

Are you supPlying the trowells and tools?? The acid for cleaning? The wheel-burrs?

A few months ago in the home owner section of this forum a home owner started making statements like that and we concluded this man was from where dells call center is located!

I don't mind helping and educating home owner's, but I get irritated when home owner's start writing about how much money a contractor is making. This is far from a get rich industry.

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Waltb
10-14-2011, 10:35 AM
Okay, I made a mistake by using the word profit. From reading the forums, I understand there are MANY expenses involved before you get to your bottom line...sorry.

Believe it or not and I know we don't know each other but if I see someone busting their butt and do a great job I always tip. Here's X, please take your family out to dinner on me, etc...

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I promise to be more tactful with my posts. :)

DVS Hardscaper
10-14-2011, 10:56 AM
Okay, I made a mistake by using the word profit. From reading the forums, I understand there are MANY expenses involved before you get to your bottom line...sorry.

Believe it or not and I know we don't know each other but if I see someone busting their butt and do a great job I always tip. Here's X, please take your family out to dinner on me, etc...

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I promise to be more tactful with my posts. :)

Haha, thanks!

Three years ago your $3500 job would have been $5000. Yet, our expenses have increased. It's a buyers market.
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Moneypit
10-17-2011, 11:18 PM
Just in case anyone is following, the saga continues!

Mason quote $3,500 labor.

He works with his son and has two laborers and said it would take 5-6 days to complete.


Am I the only one who thinks this guy is giving this job away?? Maybe its just a SC vs NY thing. I wouldn't touch it based on those figures for under $6500 labor only.

Waltb
10-20-2011, 05:06 PM
Man what a week!!! To make a long story short I met an AWESOME mason that blew me away. He was very professional and really sold himself. Of course, he was the most expensive but having the piece of mind of a 30 year veteran that will handle all aspects of the job would be worth it. Just because I have been including $'s I will continue to do so. He would build a double brick wall (3') with five columns that would be 6' high to accommodate a fence in the near future. We've been toying with that idea and he told me it's best to plan ahead to save money and aggravation in the future. His turn key price was $7,100..all materials, demo old wall, drainage, etc.. everything.

Well, the wife was talking with our landscape designer friend and she thought stucco with stone columns, same layout as brick wall, would look fantastic. Soooo, I have someone that will quote this job. Both of these guys are great family men and have excellent references which is nice.

Now, to add to the confusion. I talked to the first person I mentioned in this post today about my wife liking stucco and stone and he told me he could do that, no problem, BUT I would regret it down the road. He said using stucco on a retaining wall by a pool would be a huge mistake. He said it would discolor and eventually crack if not installed PERFECTLY. Also mentioned irrigation causing issues to the wall, etc... I can see his point about waterproofing the back side but I'm just torn right now. He wasn't talking down the other person, just that his brick wall would outlast me and that stucco would require maintenance and be a much more costly solution down the road.

Great. I was hoping to get started next week and now I'm just frustrated!! ha ha I understand exploring our needs since this is a lot of money to spend (for us) but new idea's keep popping up that we didn't spend a lot of time researching and now we're just confused!!

DVS Hardscaper
10-20-2011, 05:16 PM
Lol - get Started next week??? Things must be slow in south carolina!

Stucco does require maintenance. Most holiday inns have stucco.

Dude, anything "nice" has a price. Whether it's upfront (like brick) or on the back end (like maintenance).

Irrigation? Do you really need irrigation? I'm not a believer in irrigation. Unless you're in arizona. Waste of money.

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bigslick7878
10-20-2011, 11:27 PM
Think about it this way....

$3500 for 6 days.

That is roughly $580 a day for a 4man crew!

I charge about $500 for a 2 man crew up in these parts.

For 4 guys a day I would be in the $800 range maybe a little more, and I have extremely low overhead.

Waltb
10-21-2011, 09:00 AM
We really do need irrigation with the heat down here. It's an existing system but some of the zones will have to be reworked due to damage from removing the tree stumps.

Any of the brick quote's are within our budget, it's just choosing which direction to go at this time. Well, I did have a quote come in for stucco with five stone columns. He even had the material left over from a previous job that he was anxious to move and his quote was $8,500....which is more than we want to spend at this time.

The guy that quoted 3,500 was a little rude when I called him back to discuss some details on removing the old wall and backfill, etc.. (this was earlier in the week) so I'm not sure about him anymore. I will probably call him again because maybe he was having a bad day?

DVS Hardscaper
10-21-2011, 10:36 AM
We really do need irrigation with the heat down here. It's an existing system but some of the zones will have to be reworked due to damage from removing the tree stumps.

Any of the brick quote's are within our budget, it's just choosing which direction to go at this time. Well, I did have a quote come in for stucco with five stone columns. He even had the material left over from a previous job that he was anxious to move and his quote was $8,500....which is more than we want to spend at this time.

The guy that quoted 3,500 was a little rude when I called him back to discuss some details on removing the old wall and backfill, etc.. (this was earlier in the week) so I'm not sure about him anymore. I will probably call him again because maybe he was having a bad day?


Dude, remember when Ronald Regan died? And they paraded his body all over creation before burying him? And people were saying "bury the gipper". Because they were dragging it on and on and on.

Well you got till 4;30 today to pull the trigger and commit to someone.

It's a freaking wall that in 27 months will not be visible.

The other guy was maybe irritated with you. He probably offered you a good price hoping you would commit on the spot. You didn't commit, so he's over you. He sees it as a simple brick wall and is thinkin poop or get off the potty.
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Waltb
10-21-2011, 10:58 PM
Well, the decision has been made!! I know this is different from anything else I've mentioned but we really feel good about the decision. This is a reputable company in town and I never called them because I ASSumed they were going to be very high. One of my friends knows the owner and has been bugging me to call him and we're glad we did. He is a super knowledgeable person that handles all hardscape needs, landscaping, etc... His presentation blew us away!!! We decided on the Belgard Celtik modular 3 piece system in sheffield beige/black.

Yes, I know I was against this type of product before but it really did look nice. He will install a column every 8 feet, prewire for lighting (he also installs Vista lighting), french drain, regrade back yard and backfill since we're moving the wall in on two sides and also includes new sod 2' out from the wall. Since the sides will step down (originally thought we would keep it at 3') he came up with 258 sqft and finally, removal of old wall...cost $5321.

He's almost a month out but I'm going to call him tomorrow to get the contract signed so we can get in line. I'll post a pic when it's complete.

DVS Hardscaper
10-22-2011, 09:25 AM
In terms of future Planning, I urge you to reconsider moving the wall in any closer to the pool. That was one aspect of your design that I took a specific look at.

I'm on the road now and have a busy weekend, I'll shoot you a PM between now and monday night explaining why.


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