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txirrigation
10-10-2011, 09:07 PM
I have a system going in soon and I need a little help with the water well to storage tank set up.

Storage tank will be added 50' from the well, and I need a way to shut off the supply to the tank when it is full without running a float switch.

Here is the set-up:

Well==>Tank==>2hp pump==>Pressure Switch==>Pressure Tank==>Irrigation.

I will be installing a float switch to protect the Irrigation pump, and a pressure switch to operate the pump on/off.

I have done many of these set ups from lakes, rivers, etc., but never from a well. The well still needs to operate independently from the tank, so a simple float switch to turn it off will not work.

This is what I need... but cant find:

-An automatic valve that closes when the tank is full.

-Any other options I do not know about

Sprinkus
10-10-2011, 09:23 PM
Well, short of using a probe system I don't see how you're going to do it without another float switch.
Can you install a low pressure cut off pressure switch rather than a float switch to protect the pump?
Is the well system pressure based as well?
If I understand what you're saying, I would tie into the well feed with a standard irrigation electric valve equipped with a 110v solenoid ran through a pump up float switch in the storage tank.

greenmonster304
10-10-2011, 09:26 PM
sounds like the well is also for the house? If so why not use a float switch in the tank wired to a separate transformer and solenoid valve.

txirrigation
10-10-2011, 09:32 PM
The well is pressure based with a pressure switch/pressure tank set up.

sounds like the well is also for the house? If so why not use a float switch in the tank wired to a separate transformer and solenoid valve.

Yes, the well is also used for the house. So I need a way to use pressure to shut the well pump down.

txirrigation
10-10-2011, 09:36 PM
Well, short of using a probe system I don't see how you're going to do it without another float switch.
Can you install a low pressure cut off pressure switch rather than a float switch to protect the pump?
Is the well system pressure based as well?
If I understand what you're saying, I would tie into the well feed with a standard irrigation electric valve equipped with a 110v solenoid ran through a pump up float switch in the storage tank.

The 110 solenoid setup may be what I am looking for. That way it will shut down the supply and allow the well's pressure tank to shut down the well pump.

Wet_Boots
10-10-2011, 09:36 PM
What kind of storage tank? Any pressure tank works by way of the pressure switch. Are you setting up some kind of reclaimed-water system?

Mike Leary
10-10-2011, 09:38 PM
Well, short of using a probe system
That's a 'deep' subject.:rolleyes: Probe systems do work 'well', though. I've got a 3000 gallon cistern site that has been using hi/low probes for fifteen years. Warning: a probe system can kick harder than a 521 if handled wrong. :cry:

Sprinkus
10-10-2011, 09:46 PM
That's a 'deep' subject.:rolleyes: Probe systems do work 'well', though. I've got a 3000 gallon cistern site that has been using hi/low probes for fifteen years. Warning, a probe system can kick harder than a 521 if handled wrong. :cry:

Yup, those suckers pack a wallop! :cry:

Sprinkus
10-10-2011, 09:49 PM
The 110 solenoid setup may be what I am looking for. That way it will shut down the supply and allow the well's pressure tank to shut down the well pump.

A flow control valve can be used to restrict the flow to the tank if the pressure to the house is too low when the tank is filling.

txirrigation
10-10-2011, 09:52 PM
A flow control valve can be used to restrict the flow to the tank if the pressure to the house is too low when the tank is filling.

Where can I find a 110v solenoid? Can I fit them to a normal hunter/rainbird valve or are they threaded differently?

Mike Leary
10-10-2011, 10:00 PM
Where can I find a 110v solenoid? Can I fit them to a normal hunter/rainbird valve or are they threaded differently?

superiorcontrolsco.com

Wet_Boots
10-10-2011, 10:15 PM
I don't get the problem here. If it's a sealed system, a pressure switch should be enough to deal with a pressure tank, up to a certain flow.

Mike Leary
10-10-2011, 10:16 PM
For a heavy-duty application like yours, use a brass valve with the 110 volt solenoid, though I'm not sure that IS the application.

txirrigation
10-10-2011, 10:20 PM
I don't get the problem here. If it's a sealed system, a pressure switch should be enough to deal with a pressure tank, up to a certain flow.

The storage tank is not sealed.

bcg
10-10-2011, 10:28 PM
Use a float valve (auto-fill for water features). When the level drops, the float valve will open and let water in, when it's full, the valve closes. No electricity required, works on water and air.

Here's a whole bunch of options- http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/float-valves/valves/plumbing/ecatalog/N-ac7

Mike Leary
10-10-2011, 10:29 PM
The storage tank is not sealed.

I've never heard of a sealed storage tank/cistern. Is Boots back on the stuff?

Wet_Boots
10-10-2011, 10:29 PM
The storage tank is not sealed.So that makes me wonder about the "flow chart" you provided.

Well==>Tank==>2hp pump==>Pressure Switch==>Pressure Tank==>Irrigation

One more time, is this a reclaimed water system? Or is every drop of irrigation water to come from the well?

FIMCO-MEISTER
10-10-2011, 10:32 PM
Not a well man but can a second pump be installed in the well?

txirrigation
10-10-2011, 10:38 PM
For a heavy-duty application like yours, use a brass valve with the 110 volt solenoid, though I'm not sure that IS the application.

How would you set it up?

Here is the whole gig... which I did not want to get into to confuse everything.

Origonally this well was meant to feed one house. Now this well is supplying multiple houses and a irrigation system. The approx 15 gpm is not cutting it from the well. The well is very deep, and is not in danger of going dry. The pump is 280' deep and is estimated to be in at least 80-90 ft. of water.

There will be two side by side storage tanks, one for drinking and one for irrigation. This is why I cannot use a simple float shut off because then the other tank might not get filled. These two tanks will be set up about 50' from the pressure operated well pump.

I have a 200amp service about 20' away so the power options are vertually limitless in this situation.

This is how I will set it up:

- Well to 5000gal and 2500gal storage tanks, with a flow reduction to the irrigation tank so that the drinking supply will be able to refill faster.

- Irrigation storage==>Ball Valve (to hold pressure)==>Pump==>Pressure Switch==>Pressure Tank==> Irrigation System

The irrigation tank will not be pressurized as an added measure to insure drinking water quality. That way there will be an air gap in the tank.

This is where I remind everyone that I am dyslexic... so ignore spelling.

txirrigation
10-10-2011, 10:43 PM
So that makes me wonder about the "flow chart" you provided.



One more time, is this a reclaimed water system? Or is every drop of irrigation water to come from the well?

Every bit is coming from the well. There will be a ball valve installed between the storage tank and the pump to keep the pressure on the pressure tank.

Advanced flow chart for boots-

Well Pump==>Pressure Switch (PS)==>Pressure Tank (PT)==> Irrigation Storage Tank==>Ball Valve[to hold psi]==>2hp pump==>PS==>PT==>Irrigation system

My concern is between the wells pressure tank and the irrigation storage. I need something to shut it off using well pump pressure switch.

I hate to say it but I may need to un block Kiril for his input...

Mike Leary
10-10-2011, 10:44 PM
I like air gaps, but I seem to recall you're not a fan of on-demand pumping systems?

bcg
10-10-2011, 10:45 PM
How would you set it up?

Here is the whole gig... which I did not want to get into to confuse everything.

Origonally this well was meant to feed one house. Now this well is supplying multiple houses and a irrigation system. The approx 15 gpm is not cutting it from the well. The well is very deep, and is not in danger of going dry. The pump is 280' deep and is estimated to be in at least 80-90 ft. of water.

There will be two side by side storage tanks, one for drinking and one for irrigation. This is why I cannot use a simple float shut off because then the other tank might not get filled. These two tanks will be set up about 50' from the pressure operated well pump.

I have a 200amp service about 20' away so the power options are vertually limitless in this situation.

This is how I will set it up:

- Well to 5000gal and 2500gal storage tanks, with a flow reduction to the irrigation tank so that the drinking supply will be able to refill faster.

- Irrigation storage==>Ball Valve (to hold pressure)==>Pump==>Pressure Switch==>Pressure Tank==> Irrigation System

The irrigation tank will not be pressurized as an added measure to insure drinking water quality. That way there will be an air gap in the tank.

This is where I remind everyone that I am dyslexic... so ignore spelling.

Of course you can use float valves, one for each tank. Not a float SWITCH, a float VALVE. I have a customer with 4 water features all fed from the same well and all of them have float valves installed to keep them full. Works perfectly. You're making this way harder than it needs to be.

Wet_Boots
10-10-2011, 10:48 PM
If you don't have a float switch/valve, then you would have a pressure transducer/sensor ~ a means of electrically 'knowing' when the irrigation storage is filled

a pressure-sustaining valve upstream of the tank might cover your needs - with an air break, you don't need any other isolation for the sprinkler system

Kiril
10-10-2011, 10:55 PM
Where can I find a 110v solenoid? Can I fit them to a normal hunter/rainbird valve or are they threaded differently?

Why do you need one? What is wrong with using an actuated ball valve?

txirrigation
10-10-2011, 11:17 PM
Of course you can use float valves, one for each tank. Not a float SWITCH, a float VALVE. I have a customer with 4 water features all fed from the same well and all of them have float valves installed to keep them full. Works perfectly. You're making this way harder than it needs to be.

How reliable are the float valves? I know what they are, but I woud rather something fail closed than open. A solenoid would fail closed and a float valve would fail open much like a leaking toilet.

bcg
10-10-2011, 11:49 PM
I've had them in service outdoors for years and haven't had any problems with them. Everything needs maintenance periodically though, check it every once in a while, re-adjust as needed and you should be fine.

stebs
10-11-2011, 12:00 AM
Maybe put float valves in both tanks, then put a pressure switch on the line feeding the float valves? That way, if they are both closed, pump shuts down. If one opens, pump starts up.

Sprinkus
10-11-2011, 09:14 AM
Where can I find a 110v solenoid? Can I fit them to a normal hunter/rainbird valve or are they threaded differently?

R-Co makes them. Longhorn, Sheeping, or any other major supplier should carry them.
The ones I use work on Irritrol valves.

1idejim
10-11-2011, 09:37 AM
Of course you can use float valves, one for each tank. Not a float SWITCH, a float VALVE. I have a customer with 4 water features all fed from the same well and all of them have float valves installed to keep them full. Works perfectly. You're making this way harder than it needs to be.
:):):):)..........i agree

Sprinkus
10-11-2011, 09:50 AM
These are typically the type of float valves I see inside of storage tanks:
http://www.watts.com/pages/_products_details.asp?pid=588

FIMCO-MEISTER
10-11-2011, 11:19 AM
R-Co makes them. Longhorn, Sheeping, or any other major supplier should carry them.
The ones I use work on Irritrol valves.

Sheeping? A new supplier in TX?

txirrigation
10-11-2011, 02:55 PM
Sheeping? A new supplier in TX?

Never heard of them.

Thanks for all the help, I believe I have the plans all worked out.

I'll take pics when I am done.

Wet_Boots
10-11-2011, 04:01 PM
post your schematic, and we will appraise it :)

Mike Leary
10-11-2011, 04:49 PM
post your schematic, and we will appraise it :)

Ditto, what a confusing thread. :dizzy:

Sprinkus
10-11-2011, 06:51 PM
Sheeping? A new supplier in TX?

Another way of saying Eweing.

Wet_Boots
10-11-2011, 07:48 PM
Another way of saying Eweing.Baa-a-ad joke :p

Mike Leary
10-11-2011, 09:31 PM
I believe I have the plans all worked out.

Having done a ton of these types of systems, there is something in the back of my pea brain that bothers the hell out of me, but I can't put my finger on it. I would most certainly be on the drawing board (if you guys even have those anymore) to get the well flow, the transfer to potable, the demand of irrigation and the type of re-injection pumps, float switches and such. Something is wrong in Denmark, or I'm old and in the way. :dizzy:

Wet_Boots
10-11-2011, 09:37 PM
not that I want to add complexities, but I think there might be a way to duplicate the effect of a pressure-sustaining valve without the expense ~ what is the flow of the existing well output?

Mike Leary
10-11-2011, 09:56 PM
what is the flow of the existing well output?

Would be my first question. Depending on the demand of the irrigation system, the potable is moot, unless it has a huge demand, in which case the variables will have to be taken into consideration. How do I know? I've run cisterns out when too many folk were in the shower and the irrigation was on at the same time and the cistern re-charge was not properly figured. I learned. :dizzy:

Wet_Boots
10-11-2011, 10:11 PM
What I'm thinking of, is a variation of the cheapo alternative to a specialty valve used to prevent head blowouts on golf courses. The workaround there was to parallel a small valve to the big one, and use it to evacuate air from the lines, before opening the full-size zone valve.

If you used two paralleled valves to fill the irrigation tank, with staggered pressure-switch settings, the smaller one could work for lower well pressures, so as to not compete with domestic use, and another valve could open at a higher well pressure, for a faster fill.

FIMCO-MEISTER
10-12-2011, 10:39 AM
Just for curiosity sake (remember I'm not a well man) why is a second pump strictly for the irrigation out of the question? Cost? Space?

Mike Leary
10-12-2011, 12:02 PM
Just for curiosity sake (remember I'm not a well man) why is a second pump strictly for the irrigation out of the question? Cost? Space?

Well, I, for one, would install two pumps so as to have high pressure for irri and low for household.

Wet_Boots
10-12-2011, 12:09 PM
If he has an air break before the irrigation storage tank, it would follow that a second pump would be drawing from the tank, just for the irrigation.

txirrigation
10-12-2011, 04:20 PM
Well will refill at 15-17 gpm. I am limiting the refill flow to the irrigtion tank to 6 so the fresh tank will refill faster than the irrigation tank. That way during holidays when each house is full of people the fresh water will always be ready.

There will be two pumps, one for fresh and one for irrigation. The pumps will also have thier own supply tanks.

Wet_Boots
10-12-2011, 04:23 PM
Is the domestic use more than the 15-17 gpm can handle?

txirrigation
10-12-2011, 04:38 PM
Is the domestic use more than the 15-17 gpm can handle?

No. But that is assuming the irrigation storage tank is not refilling.

Wet_Boots
10-12-2011, 05:00 PM
No. But that is assuming the irrigation storage tank is not refilling.That is the idea behind a pressure-sustaining valve. It only is open when the upstream pressure is above a certain point, so the domestic side never gets starved for water.

From what you describe, you only need an air-break-fed tank for the irrigation. Maybe some additional pressure-tank capacity on the original well, for the benefit of domestic use.

Mike Leary
10-12-2011, 09:43 PM
Umm, a solid design would impress me. I'd like to see it.

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