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View Full Version : Mulch This; I promiss no argueing by me.


LAWNGODFATHER
11-11-2002, 04:17 AM
14 acre lot

10 acres of turf to mow.

LAWNGODFATHER
11-11-2002, 04:21 AM
5 acres of "woods"

LAWNGODFATHER
11-11-2002, 04:27 AM
We spent 3 days power raking, aerating and over seeding from the damage the mulched leaved did.

Had an irrigation system installed on the entire property.

Has 52M of full sun turf.

We did a removal the day before the pics were taken.

Darryl G
11-11-2002, 04:42 AM
LGF - Could you elaborate a bit on the damage caused by the mulching. Did someone else mow it and leave piles of leaf mulch that killed the grass or something?

ranger520
11-11-2002, 04:48 AM
LGF,

A little off the thread here but, would I get less blow out from my exmark if I used a stock blade over a gator? Currently I am using gators and bagging with an accelator bagger. I am down to two spacers and going to try one spacer. It just hit me that mabe the stock blades would create less blow out. i know you are like the exmark dude and can advise as well as anyone.

Scott

LAWNGODFATHER
11-11-2002, 04:55 AM
Guy bought this house last year, had a good amount of grass growing in the shaded areas, fall came and the LCO prior to me mulched all the leaves, then started the mowing this year.

I got this lawn mid May, and it has sparce grass in the wooded area, but it twas grass.

So this late August we power raked the entire property, took large amounts of decompsing (not decomposed) leaves out of the wooded area.

Now I got grass growing, (Georges Special Mix) in the shaded area, and plan to keep it.

BTW before the 1st pick-up we did you could not see the ground at all.

Now I an not arguing, but how do you expect to get rid of leaves in this kind of property.

LAWNGODFATHER
11-11-2002, 05:00 AM
Originally posted by ranger520
LGF,

A little off the thread here but, would I get less blow out from my exmark if I used a stock blade over a gator? Currently I am using gators and bagging with an accelator bagger. I am down to two spacers and going to try one spacer. It just hit me that mabe the stock blades would create less blow out. i know you are like the exmark dude and can advise as well as anyone.

Scott

If the stock blades were high lift the Gator mulcher should be less lift. Try the spacer and see what it does.

GroundKprs
11-11-2002, 05:08 AM
You can mulch up to 6" of leaves into existing lawn, and it will benefit the lawn. This based on research by Zac Reicher at Purdue in the 90s. I think he just worked test plots with a 21" Toro recycler, and did control with no mulching, 3" and 6" depths for a few years. The 6" mulched plots were the healthiest soils at the end of the test, and improved every year.

Of course, I never saw pictures of these test plots after the mulching. 6" of leaves with the best mulching over a few weeks has to leave some unsightly mess. And oak leaves, even when mulched, will take a long time to actually decay. I believe Zac used mostly maple leaves. Most of mature landscapes here are mostly oaks. That's why most of my leaves are removed.

Darryl G
11-11-2002, 05:16 AM
My first choice would be to blow them into the woods or dispose of them on site somewhere.

My second choice would be to mulch them with single gators and bag any excess. Just put the bagger on, let it fill up and keep going. Now you're mulching. Empty bagger as needed in heavy areas. Dispose of catchings on site or collect on a tarp and carry or drag to trailer.

If that doesn't work (seems like it will take forever), blow or tarp to curb and call my friend Charlie to vac them up. This would be my last resort, not my first choice.

I try to stay flexible and deal with each situtation individually, depending on conditons.

Shady Brook
11-11-2002, 08:22 AM
The property owner must be a millionaire to be able to afford multiple bagged cleanups of properties of that size. From what I can tell of the pictures, I believe mulching would be possible with a nice rider and mulch kit. Like was mentioned earlier in the Purdue study, there was no adverse effect, but actually benifit in mulching huge quantities of leaves. The larger places I service that have a good deal of trees are not manicured anyway, more of a park/woodland setting. At least for me, the owners of these types of properties don't care if they can go out in the back fourty and find some crushed leaf particles in the thin grass spots. The leaves will be all gone come spring, and the savings for them is imense. At least this is my experience with my customers.

Jay

Tvov
11-11-2002, 09:49 AM
What we've done with some properties is mow over / mulch the leaves first, then collect / blowoff the lawn. This reduces dramatically the volume of leaves to be vacuumed. I've had little luck with just mulching leaves, no matter how well the mulching seems to work there is leaf debris left, and most of my customers want pristine lawns.

shearbolt
11-11-2002, 10:18 AM
I agree with LGF that you need to bag the leaves. However mulching them into the middle of the lawn with my Dixie eliminates alot of the volume giving me more capacity in the bed of my 1 ton. I know this is true because when it is wet and I can't mulch my truck fills up real quick. The lift system on the Walker makes cleanup alot more enjoyable.

naturescape
11-11-2002, 10:30 AM
LGF:

Man, would I love to "mulch this", referring to the photos you uploaded. What a piece of cake!

awm
11-11-2002, 11:03 AM
are these pictures after u picked up.
either way ,dang if id ever want to pick up 14 acres o leaves. dumps dn here would probably run me off.because of the size of the site it would still take a lot o time even if u mulching.to each his own.

kutnkru
11-11-2002, 11:05 AM
Mike I have to agree with Ray that according to your poics I dont see the hassles of this property???

Even if you had quite a bit down with three passes it should still be presentable, and take you less time than Peco'ing the whole thing - no???

ULTIMATE LAWN
11-11-2002, 11:15 AM
That is an ideal candidate for mulching. Properly set-up you could do a very presentable job with only 1 pass.

naturescape
11-11-2002, 11:36 AM
Ultimate Lawn,
Thank you so much for all of your well-informed and well-written responses on these threads on leaf mulching (even though that last thread got closed on us! lol). It's so refreshing to hear from someone who really knows what he is doing.

HarryD
11-11-2002, 12:21 PM
if I could dump leaves on site then I would bag mow for sure . but if I had to haul them off i would mulch first then bag to reduce the volume of leaves I would have to haul away .
I just got a new 52" turf tracer with a mulch kit and it really does a excellent job on 2 pass's i hate cleanups so this has made my life much easeir ;) I still bag too but alot less to haul off

kutnkru
11-11-2002, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by HarryD
if I could dump leaves on site then I would bag mow for sure . ...Thats the HOLE point of these discussions is so that when you see the benefits of mulching you wont have to bag no mow!!!

HAHAHAHA!!!

Evan528
11-11-2002, 12:53 PM
LGF, no matter how many times you say it....people still think they can mulch huge amounts of leaves. In reality.... Ive yet to see a before and after pic of a mulched yard where they had nearly the volume of leaves as most of my accounts. At my accounts, by time you blow out the beds and blow off the hard surfaces you already have 2-3 ft of leaves piles around the parimeter. The amount of leaves on my properies I know would bog my DC is I even tried to mulch them with the OCDC down. Lets get real guys!!!!!:rolleyes:

mdb landscaping
11-11-2002, 01:03 PM
you said it evan. I havent seen anybody ever mulch a yard in my area. Ill have a pile as big as the truck at some houses. No way you can blow out the beds and mulch the lawn leaves, and the ones from the beds. The piles would be taller than the mowers.

Randy Scott
11-11-2002, 01:05 PM
WOW, I can't believe all the talk this year about mulching leaves. I don't remember it being this way last year.

I guess, whatever works for YOU and YOUR equipment, and YOUR quality level of work, then do that. I really don't care what others have to say about it. It's great to get recommendations and suggestions about blade combinations and so forth, but keep your personal opinions about what CAN and CAN'T be done to yourself. Your not them and they're not you. This is like the biggest pissing match this year.

There are a million variables to every situation of leaf cleanup from what the customer wants to how the company will do it and to the amount down and what types of leaves. Somebody 10 states away telling someone else how to do it or that it should be done this way or that way is ignorant.

Just do what works for you with the resources you have!!!!!!!!!!!

Now let's go make some money!!! Oh wait, it's been lightly snowing off and on here today so far.:mad:

HarryD
11-11-2002, 01:11 PM
yes but if you had a trac vac or a peco set up and could dump on site who cares about mulching

this whole deal going back and forth on mulching and bagging is about hauling the leaves away .
if you have a mower that can mulch leaves better then a mower with mulching blades and side discarging them then you will have no problem .

but if your mulching with a side discharge you will be running over them many more times . like LGF said its easier for him to bag once then run over them 5 times . I myself stated in the above post that i just got a new turf tracer with the mulch kit and could probly mulch above lawn in pics the way it is now once . but if it was real heavy leaves probly 2 or 3 pass's .


with as shadey as that area is mulching would probly kill some of the grass with the leaf dust build up


kutnkru
the only benifit for me mulching is not having to haul a truck load of leaves per job
so it all depends on what kind of mulching set up you have

Randy Scott
you said it best do what works for you

KLMlawn
11-11-2002, 01:38 PM
Here we go again .....:dizzy:

Maybe the word "mulch" should be added to the profanity filter ????????

musselman
11-11-2002, 02:41 PM
Still alot of leaves in them trees yet to fall...the ground isnt to bad yet but in a few days it will get that way, and in my experiance it cant be mulched... I would go over lawns with real heavy leaves a couple times with my DC and then clean-up with my walker...yes the DC chopped things up real fine, but the volume of material is so thick that even with 2-3 passes its still visable. Sometimes the leaves are so thick the only way to do a real pro. job is to bag it (at least thats what happens in this area) I started mowing sevral large churches in this area this year.the last guys mulched leaves..I bag, Ive had a ton of compliments about how much better it looks this year...The proof is in the pudding so to speak for me.

Lawn Sharks
11-11-2002, 02:48 PM
Sounds to me like the guy who "mulched" this property before you got the job didn't know what he was doing and probably needs a class in blade sharpening as well.


Keth

JimLewis
11-11-2002, 05:58 PM
I agree with Mike (LGF), Evan, mdb, shearbolt, etc.

Most of the time, mulching is just plain unprofessional and doesn't look nearly as good as a proper leaf clean-up.

You guys can try to argue with the others all day long about it and I doubt you'll ever make any progress. I told you all several weeks ago that this site has been taken over by scrubs. They do it one way - we do it the right way. It's just a different mind set. And that's half of the problem with lawnsite these days. You got pros mingling with scrubs and the scrubs are going to continue to want to take the cheap, easy, lazy way out every time. They make every argument they can think of to rationalize their stance. And there's no changing some people's minds.

This is a common challenge in countless threads.

As for the comments by Kutnkru, Naturescape and Ultimate Lawn, I think you all missed the part where he said the pictures were taken 1 day AFTER his big leaf clean-up. If that's how many leaves are there after one day, imagine how many were there to start with. And now imagine how many will be there in a week - after 7 days. And you want to mulch what's in those pictures x 7 ???? Get real!

IMO, mulching is just plain lazy and unprofessional. I could see a very few instances where it could work and nobody would notice that you mulched. But most of the time, there's no reason for it other than you're trying to cut corners. And I don't play that game.

JimLewis
11-11-2002, 06:15 PM
darryl gesner wrote:My first choice would be to blow them into the woods or dispose of them on site somewhere...... My second choice would be to mulch them .... Just put the bagger on, let it fill up and keep going.
See, this is the kind of stuff I am talking about. The first choice is to dump the debris on the clients' property???? What kind of clients do you work for??? If I suggested that I dump crap on my clients' properties I'd be laughed at and promptly fired.

The second choice is just to let your bag fill up and just keep going, leaving a trail of crap behind as you go??? Damn. You guys work in mobile home parks or something? Who lets their landscaper get away with crap like this? My clients would never go for it. And I would never do it anyway.

Sorry to sound rude. But man, I just don't see how you can just toss leaves in the back of someone's property or mulch 7 times what's shown in the above pictures week after week and still tell me it's gonna look nice. That's just totally unprofessional.

Green Pastures
11-11-2002, 06:32 PM
Jim,

I hear ya and agree with what you're sayin about the letting the bag fill up then just keep on drivin.

But, I do have customers who insist I bag, but also insist I dump onsite. This property that LGF pictured looks JUST like the properties I'm talking about. These are RICH people who have purchased BIG properties out in the country.

You may be used to one area of the country where there is only city, and your property is bordered by the neighbors property. There simply IS no place TO dump onsite. Well, that's not always the case. The customers I have who want me to dump onsite are in the country, bordering tidal rivers, and have huge wooded lots that border their properties. There is ample room to dump ALOT of debris. They feel better about it than me hauling it to the dump, and filling up landfills.

I have other customers that insist I bag and haul it away and they dont care where it goes as long as it's far from them.

Different strokes for different folks.

kutnkru
11-11-2002, 06:33 PM
Jim

To me its simply a matter of when the leaves are still coming down I dont see any point in spending unnecessary time at a property to charge a client BIG $$$ at prices like $75/man hr for 5-6 guys to have the lawns covered again a day after your there???

I also metioned in another post that I do bag after mulching when necessary to keep properties looking presentable when needed.

It makes sense to me that if you can mulch the lawns to get the leaves that have fallen off the property (effectively), that you minimize the bagging times yet end up with the same result.

If Im now some "scrub" because I dont provide a final clean up each time I visit a property while the leaves continue falling - I'll be King Scrub then -LOL!!!

I just dont see charging large $$$ to clients unnecessarily when its not necessary and has no gain by either of us. Well unless Im out to rape clients wallets -LOL!!!

AL Inc
11-11-2002, 06:39 PM
Jim- I agree with most of your last post. I've never mulched the leaves into the lawns and don't think I could ever get away with it. However, I try to leave debris (leaves and grass) on site as much as possible. I would say we can do this at about 40% of the properties I service. Never been laughed at or fired because of it. What types of clients do I service? The average home value is about 500K. Most properties are one acre or more, so there are lots of woods to dump debris. If you could leave the debris on site or pay to dump, what would you do if you were me? Mike

JimLewis
11-11-2002, 06:44 PM
Ok, well I guess it's different where I am then. I sometimes forget that. But where I am it's all residential areas. Houses are close together on 7,000 - 10,000 sq. ft. lots. No room for dumping. And even the 2 or 3 large acre properties we work for don't allow us to dump anywhere on their property. I guess it's different when you work in areas where you all work - large estates out in the country. Maybe that wasn't a fair criticism. I suppose if the client is happy, then so be it. But my comments on mulching still stand. I just don't see any reason for it.

1MajorTom
11-11-2002, 06:48 PM
Quote: See, this is the kind of stuff I am talking about. The first choice is to dump the debris on the clients' property???? What kind of clients do you work for??? If I suggested that I dump crap on my clients' properties I'd be laughed at and promptly fired.

What size properties are you cutting Jim? Don't you mostly use 21's? So it's probably safe to say you may be cutting no more than 10,000sf right? If that's the case, then yes, I would agree with you. With that small of a property, I wouldn't want stuff dumped in my yard either. But have you ever thought that some people on here cut properties with some acreage? And some of these properties contain woods areas. So what would be wrong with dumping back in the woods?

Eric ELM was an avid supporter of mulching. Was he not? Did that make him lazy? I just don't get it how anyone on here compare other peoples work. Unless you are on the exact property that is being mulched or bagged, I don't see how anyone can judge anothers work.

I for one am getting fed up with this mulch/bagging debate.
There is no correct or superior way.
These threads if they continue to go downhill with insults flying about how lawnsite members choose to do their work will be closed.

1MajorTom
11-11-2002, 06:49 PM
Well Jim, I see you answered my question about the size of your lawns while I was replying.

LakeSide Lawn and Landscape
11-11-2002, 06:58 PM
For once i totally agree with mr.Randy Scott!!Very good reply.:D

bubble boy
11-11-2002, 07:22 PM
we bag, as i have stated before in other threads.

and although the debate may be now tiring to most, i am still interested. every one knows you can mulch up to a certain point . the debate is how far you can take it, in terms of coverage, and get a good look. i like to hear from people & their methods, to see if i can use those methods to my advantage. i'd like to be able to mulch in coverage thicker than i do now. i do still hold there is a point when bagging is necessary, here in my market.

but for those who are sick of this, move on. and while we will surely continue to debate , and likely piss on each other, i hope the moderators realize that amongst all the junk i have seen some interesting pics and learned some new ideas, so closing these threads, IMO prematurely, ain't doing squat for me.

kutnkru
11-11-2002, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by 1MajorTom
... I for one am getting fed up with this mulch/bagging debate.
There is no correct or superior way. These threads if they continue to go downhill with insults flying about how lawnsite members choose to do their work will be closed. While I agree that some of the previous posts may have been out of line - I take Jims remarks as a form of constructive criticism.

Like LGF said, hes not out for a match but a debate and I see nothing wrong with debating against each other constructively. Is this not the point of this forum, to learn and rationalize from one another???

Personally I think you are a power hungry moderator who needs to let the forum run, and stop trying to be everyones mother!

Doogiegh
11-11-2002, 07:36 PM
Ok guys, I think I got some VERY valid ideas here.. Maybe these are no big deal facts, but to me, this is huge....

First off, LGF said it was a 14 ACRE Property.. If an acre is 42,000 square feet, that is a total of 588,000 square feet.

Or a property that is 766 feet by 766 *IF* it's a perfect square.. Probably more like 1000 feet by 588 (a bit more rectangular)...

Anyone got any idea how MANY houses could be put on that property?? That's an entire DEVELOPMENT say...58 to 117 HOUSES in some areas, if each property is 5000 to 10000 square feet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! For the guys on here who do smaller properties.. can you imagine doing say... 80 HOUSES in a row, each one being 7350 square feet?? Good god.. That's gotta fill even the largest of leaf trailer up QUICK..

Now MY question is.. How close can you get your mower bag to your trailer??? Cause I can believe, but couldn't "imagine" driving 1000 feet or almost 1/4 mile down a driveway to the street, dumping, turning around and going back for more. <G> Talk about wearing out your tires...

Just from the picture's he posted, look how MANY and how tall those trees are?!?!?

My REAL question is how do you *BID* on something like that??? hehehe. I think I'll do it for $250... $200 up front, the other $50 when I'm done. heheheh. (just kidding)

Now, for a property that LARGE, I WOULD ask if there is a "dump" area somewhere off in the far corner that could be a "mulch" pile or whatever.. Cause I think when you have 14 acres, do the owners ever walk around and go thru all 14 of them on a regular basis??? I mean, you can only have a party or picnic so large with soooo many people over.. <G>

My first response as well was to say MULCH them.

But if LGF can have the customer base to PAY him to spend his entire crew 3 days on 1 property just power raking and taking away the first load of leaves, then God bless him!!! Sure, he COULD mulch and be gone in a lesser time, but I don't think he would be able to charge the same overall price...

I never saw a "forrest" that actually had green grass growing on the floor of it and not just a bunch of mud and trampled dirt... Even Mother Nature's own natural, untouched forests don't have grass that green. <G>

LGF, if you have any more pics, that would be awesome..

Where *DO* you dump all the leaves. I know you have a huge leaf trailer.. How many loads of leaves in the trailer have you done so far this year, just from this one property??

Thanks,
Gary

Randy Scott
11-11-2002, 07:40 PM
While I agree that some of the previous posts may have been out of line - I take Jims remarks as a form of constructive criticism.


Well, I'm sure I could follow Jim or anyone else here around all day long and "constructively criticize" the way they run or operate their business. And the same goes for mine. It's all one mans opinion and to say one is right or wrong is truly ignorant.

I too have properties that are surrounded by acres of woods and the customers want them blown into the woods or bagged and spread out a little ways back into the woods as not to create disposal charges. I also haul away, and I also mulch some properties with fewer trees. So everyone should get off their high horses and let people do what they want. The problem with this thread is it's not constructive criticism, it's a bunch of blow hards insisting on how things "have" to be done.

You know what, if some of you are so persistant on your specific procedures, then you should be able to reap the harvest the following season when everyone calls you because of the other hacks out there doing leaves. I'd be quiet and let everyone else do it the incorrect way instead of trying to change them. Oh wait, there really isn't a correct way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

bubble boy
11-11-2002, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by kutnkru

Personally I think you are a power hungry moderator who needs to let the forum run, and stop trying to be everyones mother!

yo G wha u say about my mama...

:laugh:

honestly i know things must be kept under control. but i must agree even debate with some minor insults thrown in is nothing compared to what i hear when people in the industry discuss things on the street. we are boys...


but we also must accept, even you ULTIMATE, that the rules will be bent here. jim's statements were very harsh, even rude. but look what he has added to the forum while he's been a member. look how much help he has provided. because of all that when i read jim's post i had no prob with it. i even chuckled thinking how irritated he must have looked while typing...:D

Toroguy
11-11-2002, 07:58 PM
jimlewis considers me a scrub because I mulch leaves, I feel so ashamed.

Is the glass half full or half empty? Maybe the glass is to big? Maybe LGF should drink the glass of water, unless ULTIMATELAWN poured it, then maybe he should dump the glass of water out?

dlandscaping
11-11-2002, 08:54 PM
Lawnsite is going downhill. I now see more and more idiots joining everyday. How can anyone say they can mulch 3ft of damm leaves. Admit it you idiots it is impossible no matter how many times you go over it. It creates more work, more time, more energy and looks shitty. Ive tried it and had no success, it is not an art it is a cheap service. Bag the damm leaves.

LakeSide Lawn and Landscape
11-11-2002, 09:04 PM
I personaly dont mulch leaves either i have tried it but i didnt like the way it looked.Although i dont see the need in calling folks idiots that do mulch them!Maybe they think we are idiots for not mulching them???Just a thought

HarryD
11-11-2002, 09:13 PM
haha I love this . I think the horse has been beat enough . ive been called a scrub and a idiot by other scrubs and idiots . I love lawn site :D

Lawn Sharks
11-11-2002, 09:13 PM
Worthwhile reading.

http://grounds-mag.com/ar/grounds_maintenance_mulching_tree_leaves/


and on another note how does one Unsubscribe to a post? Don't need an email every time this thread gets a post.

Thanks,
Keth

1MajorTom
11-11-2002, 09:17 PM
Personally I think you are a power hungry moderator who needs to let the forum run, and stop trying to be everyones mother!

Honey, I'm way too young to be your momma. ;)

Nothing wrong with a good debate to get the blood going.
And with winter right around the corner, I'm sure we'll have a lot of them.
But stooping to name calling on any threads ain't the way to do it.
Sure, I realize some members feed off of confrontational threads. But some who might not post much but come here to learn, don't feel like wading thru all the bickering.

I don't see anything wrong with stating your point, just keep it professional.

So if a few insults thrown around are ok, why not throw a few more? And a few more? Who's to make the judgement when enough is enough? Of course Kris, if you have a lot of time on your hands this winter, you can always step up to bat and take a swing at keeping the forum running smooth. You seem to have all the answers. ;)

1MajorTom
11-11-2002, 09:20 PM
Quote: and on another note how does one Unsubscribe to a post? Don't need an email every time this thread gets a post.

Click on Profile at the top of the page.
Then click on Subscribed threads.
Any threads that you subscribed to will be listed there. Then click on unsubscribe to any of the ones you don't want e-mail notification on anymore.

kutnkru
11-11-2002, 09:21 PM
I agreed that there was nothing wrong with a good debate and that in the previous posts some of it was not necessary.

I still stand firm that you are power hungry and use the delete key too much. If your feminist views are not too sensitive for the debates (not brawling) then why do you stop so much?

Lawn Sharks
11-11-2002, 09:23 PM
Ground Control to Major Tom.....

Thanks


Keth

Green Pastures
11-11-2002, 09:27 PM
Why dont I have cable???? Cuz all I have to do is log on and I've got the Jetty Springer show right here. :D

1MajorTom
11-11-2002, 09:34 PM
I beg to disagree Kris.
I remove a lot of double postings where the poster has made an error and posted twice.
I also remove any for sale or wanted ad that I see immediately.
So yes, I guess I may be heavy handed on the edit key in those situations.

I also closed two threads real recently I believe. But unless you are privy to some of the behind scenes PM's I receive, I don't really see how you are justified in your conclusion as being power hungry.
An example: If a paying sponsor asked me to close a thread, would I be "power hungry" in doing so?

On that note, if you have a problem with me, then I suggest you take to it to e-mail where we can discuss it as thoroughly as you desire.

kutnkru
11-11-2002, 09:41 PM
Then your sponsors must disagree with your posters quite a bit. That doesnt seem like a good business relationship does it???

And if you think my chat room antics here are what this site needs to keep things rolling during the winter - than things have seriously gone downhill - LOL!!!

ULTIMATE LAWN
11-11-2002, 10:39 PM
Kris, you're treading on thin ice.

You know what they say about a rolling stone....

kutnkru
11-11-2002, 10:40 PM
Nope just glass houses -LOL!!!

Ricky
11-11-2002, 10:51 PM
Any one notice that LGF kept his promise?

Darryl G
11-11-2002, 10:54 PM
Jim - Maybe you need to read my post a little more carefully, or maybe I didn't make myself clear.. I said ..."Just put the bagger on, let it fill up and keep going. Now you're mulching. Empty bagger as needed in heavy areas. Dispose of catchings on site or collect on a tarp and carry or drag to trailer."

First of all, yes, some of the others are right. Many of my properties are in the woods and have dump areas in the back. That's where the customers direct me to dump rather than paying me to haul it off. There is also usually a wooded buffer area between houses (not many fences around here) where people commonly blow their leaves from the side yards.

I was mulching as part of my regular mowing until the end of last week. Doing regualr mulching at the start of the leaf season keeps the lawn looking better for a longer period and keeps the leaves from smothering it. I think it's a heck of a lot better for the lawn and looks better than letting the leaves sit there for 6 weeks waiting for a clean-up. As a matter of fact, the leaf box went on the trailer last week and the mulching kit came off Saturday because the big leaf drop finially arrived and the leaves are too heavy for me to mulch on every property I service.

As far as letting the bagger fill up and keeping going, that's to reduce the volume of leaves to be bagged and hauled away. It's quicker than bolting the blocking plate on and has the same effect. Then I bag and empty the bagger as needed and bring to my trailer, like I said in my original post. What is so unprofessional about that? If I bagged the leaves without chopping them up the catcher would fill up in no time and so would my trailer.

Your inferring that I'm a scrub for the way I do things offends me. As far as I know, you have never seen my work, talked to me, or any of my cusomters. I do quality work, have not had a single complaint (other than 2 too long complaints when I went to 3.5 inches in the mid summer). After all, it's the finished result that matters, no how you got it. Isn't it? I am serious about my business and my reputation and will not tollerate being called a scrub by someone who has no first hand knowledge of who I am or what kind of work I do.

Darryl

ULTIMATE LAWN
11-11-2002, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by Ricky
Any one notice that LGF kept his promise?

I believe he has learned a decorum professionalism.

From the kid with the push mower to the LCO running crews. All opinions are valued & should be treated with respect & courtesy.

There is forgiveness & hope for those who have strayed.

Brickman
11-11-2002, 11:27 PM
I can see the time coming when this thread is closed. That is unless a poster or two don't start acting their age instead of their shoe size.

Actually Jodi has showed restraint on this thread. I have seen others that were closed for less offences than what I see here.
And while I do not always agree with her and the other moderators actions and views they do a good job of keeping this a fairly top notch site. I have browsed some others that the quality and content is NOTHING close to LS.

I hate to say it, but Jim Lewis was pretty much on target about the fighting and scrub like actions lately.
Guys put yourselves in Chuck's shoes. What must he think when he logs on here and sees members fighting and calling each other names? He has put a lot of his own time and $$$ to making this a free site for the working guy. Come on guys help the mods, and each other continue this site to be a top notch web site for LC. Lets all take a deep breath and stop the :blob2: :blob2:

OK I said my $.02

ULTIMATE LAWN
11-11-2002, 11:35 PM
Actually Jim Lewis has indirectly labeled, Eric Elm, the greatest member ever to grace this or any other Lawn Care Forum, to be cheap, lazy & a scrub.

Darryl G
11-11-2002, 11:41 PM
That's O.K., he labeled me as a scrub for bagging! :blob3:

grassworks
11-12-2002, 12:00 AM
It's hard to understand how people can be so critical of anothers method of doing the job. It may not work for me or you ,but these guy's have their way of getting the job done and by the pic's it appears it's working out for them. I assume they are still getting paid. I doubt I could ever mulch a 5' pile of leaves, as I read in a previous post, and yet it's still interesting to see all the various ways (ie..doubles ,deck pitch ,gaters,baffles) these guys have tried. I'm sticking to my tried and true "bagging program" for leaves but always like to hear (mostly see) alternative options.

Someone once said "if you want to find the most efficent way to get a job done , give it to a lazy person" but I doubt their are many lazy people in this business for very long.:dizzy:

KLMlawn
11-12-2002, 12:21 AM
I think it is time to give the "OTHER" Lawn discussion site a bit of business ............
I am not looking to get banned, but this sh*t is ridiculous......

Darryl G
11-12-2002, 12:46 AM
KLM - I agree, this is ridiculous. I got called a scrub by someone who mows 1/4 acre properties with a 21 inch mower! Talk about the cat calling the kettle black.

I confess, I'm a scrub. I do a spring and fall clean-up for my 80 year old Aunt who lives in a 55+ mobile home park. Guess I'll call her and tell her that I can't work for her anymore because it's bad for my image.

corban
11-12-2002, 01:09 AM
LGF-
With as many acres as this guy owns, maybe you could try building a simple but large composte pile. You could offer him a one-time charge for building the "cage" and just collect the leaves in a bagger. Charge for the collecting, leave the mess there, and never have to haul anything off his site again. It would cost him more this year, but save him money in the long run. Not to mention you would get much more profit per hour.

lawnagent
11-12-2002, 01:49 AM
ok I hope I didnt jump the gun I jumped from page 1 to respond cause I gotta hit the road in a minute. The 1 person siad the study was done at a university and U could mulch leaves up to 6 inches and it was beneficial to the yard. some others said that that would be an ideal MULCHING yard based on the pics. C-Mon now, 6 inches. In those pics there would be 6 FEET of leaves. ypu might mulch 1 or 2 times by waiting a week or less between mulchings, but to mulch them all? No Way! And I mulch most all the time.

bilbo7021
11-12-2002, 03:04 AM
Gee let's see now......
I've got two old lady's that have me mulching lawn till the trees are bare, then do my final cleanup

I've got one place that let's me blow everything right into the woods around their back yard.

I've got one guy who tells me to put all the leaves curbside for the city vac.

I've got two more old lady's who have me bag stuff up and leave that curbside

And I've got yet another two or so that won't let me touch the leaves till everything is down.

Ya see, having worked in the food biz for nearly 20 years, I always thought that the customer had the last say in how they were treated. I know I'm a newbie and all, but how can any one way be the "right" way if there are so many different options and so many different ways customers want things done. The last time I looked, it's their money I'm paying bills with right?

Just me chiming in :blob3:

OH, and as for the moderator, please don't shut this down.......it's rather usefull when there's nothing to watch on cable tv! :D

strickdad
11-12-2002, 03:45 AM
mmmm this is not gonna be the popular vote here but, i would mulch those leaves. and no we are not scrubs. (gross sales well into six figures) if you look closely at the pics there is not that many on the ground. i would tell them we will do it today, and we wil be back every 5 days till there all off the trees. or we could wait till they all fall and then come "remove them" but you better call the bank cause your gonna need a loan!

KLMlawn
11-12-2002, 03:45 AM
Good refreashing post bilbo "baggin's" ...LOL

JimLewis
11-12-2002, 06:03 AM
I am usually very refrained in my criticism on lawnsite. Those who've read my posts over the years know that.

That being said, the ignorance spouted out in this thread continues to amaze me and I can't just sit by and not respond when I see something I totally disagree with. Where do I even start to respond? I'll start with the newer posts and go backwards.....

if you look closely at the pics there is not that many on the ground. No kidding. LGF just raked them all up!!! He said these pictures were taken directly AFTER the leaves had already been cleaned up. This is probably less than a day later. Imagine that many leaves times SEVEN! Whoever says they're going to mulch that and it will "improve" the soil is full of crap.

I got called a scrub by someone who mows 1/4 acre properties with a 21 inch mower! Talk about the cat calling the kettle black. So it's obvious there's a discrepancy in how we define what a Scrub is. You apparently define one as someone who takes care of mostly smaller properties. I don't see how you get there, but okay. That's your opinion. I define a scrub as anyone who runs their business in an un-professional manner. This can mean anything from driving around junky old rusty trucks with no name on them or not using company uniforms or not giving professional estimates, or not using proper mowing techniques or taking shortcuts or someone who requires their clients pay cash.... I think this is close to most people's definition of a Scrub. I wasn't calling you or anyone else specifically a Ccrub. I was saying that this site has been taken over by scrubs (and I was saying it a little tongue-in-cheek, as I do really respect a lot of people here). If you see yourself fitting inside the definition of a Scrub, I am sorry. Don't blame me. There are professionals and there are Scrubs. And I am sure there is a lot of grey are between them. But there aren't any professional companies in my area who practice mulching. And to ardently defend the position especially when there are inches of leaves on the ground seems to lean toward the Scrub end of the spectrum to me.

That's O.K., he labeled me as a scrub for bagging! Huh? When did I do that? Actually Jim Lewis has indirectly labeled, Eric Elm, the greatest member ever to grace this or any other Lawn Care Forum, to be cheap, lazy & a scrub. Dude, that's friggin low and you're way out of line. Don't bring a dead guy into this argument. I didn't call ELM anything. And I refuse to even elaborate on what he would or would not have said. Let him rest, please.
Your inferring that I'm a scrub for the way I do things offends me. Again, I didn't call anyone specifically a Scrub. But if you'll go back and read my initial post I did mention that there is a MINDSET with a lot of people here on lawnsite that is that of a scrub. Again, look at the definition above. Those kinds of things are all marks of a scrub. Now, you may make the argument that you are doing most things professionally and only missing one or two of the items above. So does that make you a Scrub? I don't know. I suppose not. If you run a professional outfit in all other respects and just happen to mulch, then I wouldn't consider you a scrub. But if you're one of those guys here on Lawnsite who thinks it's okay to demand or request their clients pay them in cash AND you drive a crappy truck around AND have no company image AND you look unprofessional AND your idea of pruning is making everything round balls AND you make your customers pay you every week AND you don't give professional estimates, ETC... then YAH! Maybe you might be a Scrub!

We should start a new thread - You might be a scrub IF... Along the same lines as "You might be a redneck IF....".

My point AGAIN, is I just don't see any professional companies mulching. There are certain things I see the professsionals doing all of the time and there are certain things I see Scrubs doing a lot of. And mulching generally falls in the latter catagory. It doesn't necessarily make you one if you mulch. But it is one of many qualities that a true Scrub might have.

dlandscaping - you feel my pain. A bit more blunt than I was, but I can relate.

This whole thread is basically a debate between those who say they can mulch just about anything and make it look good - and those of us who say that's B.S. There are those who are in the middle too (saying you can mulch to a point) but that's not really what we are talking about here.

My comments about Scrubs and most of my other comments are directed to those who keep insisting they can mow several inches of leaves into the ground each week and a) nobody's going to notice and b) it will be good. That's just plain B.S.

If only Mike had posted pictures of what the property looked like the day BEFORE he did the leaf clean-up, I bet this argument wouldn't even have occured.

David Haggerty
11-12-2002, 06:09 AM
These kinds of threads let me go head to head with what the competition is thinking without exposing myself to my direct competitors.
If I lost this discussion to a direct competitor, I'd loose the job too!

For me bagging is not an option. No one even makes a bag for a Toro 580-D. But that don't keep the customer from demanding that it looked like it was bagged.

I just do it like strictdad and mulch in regular intervals right thru the season. I can't let the leaves get a foot deep and expect a good mulching result.
But then I'm not trying to maintain a lawn in the woods like LGF is either. If I got a job like that I guess I'd have to change my ways.

Dave

Richard Martin
11-12-2002, 06:41 AM
<img src="http://members.aol.com/rmartin631/banghead.gif">

ranger520
11-12-2002, 07:45 AM
In the fall when customers call me for one time fall clean-ups, They all request to have the leaves picked up and hauled away. That is the way I bid the job. It is very simple. I tried the mulching on my own yard per the advice of fellow lawnsiters and fellow lawnsite scrubs, As I just found out that I was one today. But the appearance is not what is acceptable in my area. Most guys are running track vacs and going over the lawn a second time to give it that perfect look. That is what the customers in my area come to expect. Now, as far as being a scrub because I do not use my truck and trailer as a billboard, as some of us scrubs do. I have a couple exclusive customers that like the fact the my rig is not a billboard, when you are on there estate, it gives them the feeling and appearance that you are there private gardener, they like that. Umm! a scrub working on a multi million dollar estate! just does not seem right now does it.

Scott

crawdad
11-12-2002, 09:20 AM
I just had to get in this thread before it is closed. The best way to take care of leaves, according to me, is, Mount your leaf dozer on your mower, push 'em into the garden, and drop a match on them. Sit there with a cold beverage, and watch the fire. No landfills being filled up, no pile in the back woods, no leaf mulch in the yard. The garden will benefit, too. Next step, collect money from happy customer. payup
Crawdad

65hoss
11-12-2002, 11:27 AM
Too many of you lost the meaning of Jim's post because you were to busy trying to justify why your NOT in the scrub catagory. You saw one word (scrub) and hit the roof.

Everyone's soil structure and turf grasses are different. Customer expectations are different. I'm not going into how everyone else is doing them. Basically, I DON'T CARE. To each his own. Your responsible to your own customers and your own image. Some people just make it easier for others to have yearly growth, while some spend to much time complaining over the $25 lawn they lost to a scrub. :dizzy:

We have both on the trailer (mulch and bag) at all times during the leaf season. Light amounts of leaves can be mulched in with our situation, but NONE (I mean none) can be seen on the lawn. But thats the difference with Zoysias and Bermudas that are regularly maintained at 3". As the season moves on the mulching is for chopping them up when we have piles that are a foot plus in height and the ultravac sucks them up.

awm
11-12-2002, 11:29 AM
dang fellas lets just do it anyway u want to . labeling is the problem as i see it.
still if a person wants to label this an that practice,guess its their right to create their image, however they want.

:)

IBGreen
11-12-2002, 12:02 PM
I know LGF is biting his lips off trying not to answer!:D And I don't mean anything by this, but, the one time I've tried to mulch it didn't look very good. And I wound up double working myself because I had to go back and bag. It may work with a very light amount of leaves but, when I tried mulching it looked like somebody ran over a cardboard box. And even then there was not a substantial amount of leaves on the ground.

JimLewis
11-12-2002, 12:17 PM
Too many of you lost the meaning of Jim's post because you were to busy trying to justify why your NOT in the scrub catagory. THAT'S an understatement I am having a ball watching people post reasons why they are not a scrub just because they do one or two things I mentioned that a Scrub might do.

It's even funnier to think that everyone here knows Scrubs are all over this business but somehow think there either aren't any scubs here on lawnsite or think the scrubs are someone else, not them. Yah, as if only the Pros post messages on this site.

Maybe I should just be politically correct and not offend anyone. Here goes; Ok. Nobody here is a Scrub. You are all PROS! Just do things your own way, however you like to do them and as long as it feels good to you then your a Pro.

(Frankly, I am amazed Jodi didn't end this rediculous thread on page 2. Hehe....)

bubble boy
11-12-2002, 12:40 PM
i have always found that funny. everyone here does great work, the best in their town. everyone has the highest price.

yet i see what i see driving around every day.

in another thread some people are talking about LCO's that don't wave. how they aren't making money, they are unhappy, etc. yet inmy area no one waves, big small good work bad work

there are just to many to bother to wave

reading this site would give someone a certain impression of LCO's which would not match my market

Barkleymut
11-12-2002, 01:31 PM
I swear I'm not a scrub but I mulch some leaves in early Oct. before we get too many on the ground. But then the bagger goes on the WB and the Trak-Vac goes on the Chopper. I have a property that looks exactly like LGF's except the trees on mine are all oaks. Also mine is only about 1 acre in the front (thank god, it already takes me long enough). Luckily this guy lives in the city and has a large ditch on the side of his property where I blow them to and the city sucks them up. I honestly can't begin to imagine mulching them. The BP blowers won't even come close to moving the piles and the 9HP lil wonder can't budge them if they are wet! I guess I'll try mulching them once this year and see how he likes it when I show up at 8 AM on Tuesday and leave around 8PM on Wednesday.

Strickdad-how can you keep a 5 day schedule with all the rain we've had? I'll be lucky to keep a 14 day interval at this point.

LGF- what is that customers monthly contract price? I think I would charge about 3x my mortgage payment.

kutnkru
11-12-2002, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by jimlewis
... It's even funnier to think that everyone here knows Scrubs ... think there aren't any scubs here on lawnsite or think the scrubs are someone else ... (Frankly, I am amazed Jodi didn't end this rediculous thread on page 2. Hehe....) Personally I like the idea Jim of compiling a checklist to see if when we look in the mirror we fit the criteria for Scrubdom or not.

I still like to be as was pointed out the inferior, arrogant, "King" of the word.

I share your amazement as well that this thread remains Mr. Lewis -LOL!!!

The bottom line is that if nothing else -- for an instant the majority here stopped to critique themselves in order to defend their own name -- and if it shed any light on one of them, WELL then I guess Jim all is not lost in vain.

rodfather
11-12-2002, 02:40 PM
I think Mike is more confused now then when he started this...I know I am:confused: :confused: :confused:

Lanelle
11-12-2002, 03:22 PM
Here's another factor to think about. On hilly yards with heavily treed areas that have no turf under the trees---taking off all of the leaves may be harmful. Why? Leaves absorb moisture and slow the flow of stormwater. Removing 100% of the leaves may cause such a swift runoff that flooding of the owner or neighbor's house occurs or at least washout to the mulched beds in the path of the water and soil erosion. I have witnessed this and everyone stands around and says, 'This is the first time this ever happened'. It's also the first time they took away all of the leaves.
Also, mulching oak leaves into the turf will lower the pH which is a detrimental thing for turf vigor. Of course getting grass to grow in the woods is a full-time challenge already.

Darryl G
11-12-2002, 03:22 PM
Jim - Maybe you think it's funny to publicly insult someone, but I don't, and I don't take it lightly. You make a post pretty much saying that anyone who mulches is a scrub, then follow it by quoting me out of context and saying that this is what you mean. Just because I make a pass around a lawn with the bagger full and use on-site disposal as an option! To me, THAT is unprofessional.

Although you didn't specifically call me a scrub, it's pretty clear that's what you were saying. As such, I choose to defend myself against what I consider erroneous and unfair bashing.

And yes, around here it is "scrubby" to be mowing properties as large as 1/4 acre with a 21 inch mower in a 1970's pick-up truck. Maybe if you used larger mowers with bigger engines and deeper decks, you would see that mulching can work.

Jim, I've got to say that I respect your opinions a lot and almost always agree with your point of view, but you're the one who's out of line on this one and I think you owe me an apology.

Darryl

kutnkru
11-12-2002, 03:56 PM
:o :o :o
I think that its time to sing a little song to mend our feelings. Im recommending we form a little mosh pit. Everyone gather together and remember the rules: Elbows low and Knees high.

Sing with me now:
:angry: :angry: :angry:
I want to see you try to take a swing at me
Come on - gonna put you on the ground.

Why are you trying to make fun of me
You think its funny, what do you think it does to me
You take a jerk lashing out at me
I’ll watch you crying when your bleeding at the foot of me

Everyone for the Chorus:
:p :p :p
All my hate cannot be ground
I will not be ground - by your thoughtless gaming
Down - you can try to chair me down
Beat me to the ground
I will feel you screaming

There ...
... don’t we all just feel so much better and sunny now???
:rolleyes:

Green Pastures
11-12-2002, 04:05 PM
Mr. Martin,

:banghead:


That's great! Where did you get that???

Shoot, it doesn't work here. :(

Miller
11-12-2002, 04:53 PM
Daryll, Jim doesn't owe you Jack! You've got a lot of nerve for a guy who just got started in this business not too long ago.

Jim's done more for this site than most guys have. And he's been around this industry long enough to know what he's talking about. I may not agree with everything he says. I don't know one person I do agree with all of the time. But at least he has enough courage to call it like it is.

And by the way, Jim, Dlandscaping, and the others are right. No way to mulch up several inches of leaves and make it look "nice." And those who disagree are probably what Jim is referring to when he mentions Scrubs.

ULTIMATE LAWN
11-12-2002, 05:39 PM
Actually you can mulch quite well with a 21" but you have to have it set up properly.

I have double gator blades on my Toro Proline 21"'s without the BBC. Works great on small props. & none of my customers know or care we no longer bag.

I'm hardly a scrub: fully insured/run crews/ been in this biz over 30 yrs.. & we mulch everything. No one time clean-ups though they're all weekly of bi-weekly in the fall.

Jim you should try some larger mowers. The hydro WB's with ECS, T-bar or H-bar will kick 21" but on smaller props, 21"s see limited action.

crazygator
11-12-2002, 05:45 PM
Being from Tennessee, does this make me a scrub hick, or a hick scrub now? :dizzy: LOL, and right on Jim Lewis, 65HOSS, Lanelle, and kutnkru!

To mulch or not to mulch, that is the question!

LAWNS AND MOWER
11-12-2002, 06:13 PM
How did I miss this thread????
Can we have a group hug???
Scrub or no scrub, last fall I was able to mulch leaves 12 inches thick. Turned out just as nice as if I used a bagger. But you have to consider a major factor. We went 8 weeks without rain before heading into the fall cleanup season. Those 12 inches of leaves would be 1 inch this season due to excessive rain. Time to get out the trash cans and rakes :( :( :( :(

HarryD
11-12-2002, 06:18 PM
I did some more Scrub work today and got paid for it WOOT

Darryl G
11-12-2002, 06:41 PM
Miller - I say he does. So you think that taking another members post out of context and making unfounded allegations about their character and work quality on a public forum is O.K? I don't! Did you miss and Jim both miss the fact that I said I would bag and haul the debris. WTF!!!

I don't care how long you, he or any other member has been here. There are certain rules of courtesy and respect that should be followed on this and other public forums. I think he violated them and that he owes me a public apology for it.

Then to admit that he's "having a ball" watching the responses is just pathetic.

Yeah, I've got nerve. Nerve enough to stand up for my work and my reputation againt unfounded allegations and inferrences.

kutnkru
11-12-2002, 06:54 PM
And probably the ONLY thing that you will hear me agree with Jodi on -- is that when things get said that rile the feathers it should be handled thru the mail server not the forum.

I dont know of anyone Darryl who hasnt gotten riled about something, but to expect an appology is probably like expecting oil from the water spiget-LOL!!! I havent seen KLMlawn appologize for his smily flippin me the bird, or DLandscaping for callin me an idiot publically. Its simply a matter of laffin ceratin things off and movin on with the debate at hand.

If somethings really just got your all in a wad IMHO its just best hashed out behind closed doors is all. cause then you vcan REALLY say whats on your mind -LOL!!!

Just my nickle.

MOW ED
11-12-2002, 07:15 PM
Mulch this, we did and then ran the Walker over it at full speed.

Ricky
11-12-2002, 07:16 PM
Why I Mulch

I've been mowing for 18 yrs. (bagged 10 + yrs) been mulching for the last 3. Thought I learned something here. These new mowers and blade combos are something else arn't they?

They call us scrubs because we do something a certain way.......I say we're not a scrub because we mulch...........We mulch because we ARE scrubs. Don't get all tore up because you were called Scrub. Being a scrub ain't bad. I like being a scrub. :)

MOW ED
11-12-2002, 07:17 PM
They fell on us all day. This is a huge silver maple and it is one of the fullest trees in the city. I have much more work on this property from this tree alone.

greenman
11-12-2002, 09:00 PM
Originally posted by ULTIMATE LAWN


I'm hardly a scrub: fully insured/run crews/ been in this biz over 30 yrs.. & we mulch everything. No one time clean-ups though they're all weekly of bi-weekly in the fall.



Were you talking about yourself here or were you quoting someone elses words?

FrankenScagMachines
11-12-2002, 10:24 PM
:eek: :eek: :eek:
WOW!!!!!!
I just got in on this thread...
This has got to be the wildest thread I can remember in all my time on here, well it's a close tie with the one about the 1/3 rule, if anyone remembers that one :rolleyes:. I can hardly believe LGF hasn't argued, much less replied :confused:
My post will be long but I think you should read it and think about it some before posting again to this endless heated discussion or politically correct debate, what have you....

I see some good points and bad points.
IMHO, using a 21" mower doesn't make you a scrub, and I'm not sure how using a 1970's era vehicle does either unless it is really rusty, paint is all screwed and just a crappy appearance.

We really need to define what a scrub is, some ideas thrown in the pot appear to be:
Uses cruddy or homeowner equipment long after he/she could have upgraded.
Has that chain gang appearance, or long unkept hair, and/or dirty, holey clothes that have an extremely improper fit.
Lowballs excessively.
Usually mulches leaves (leaving them highly visible or just mows over once discharging.
Quite often mows at the incorrect height.
Doesn't use a trimmer or blower, doesn't edge at all, etc.
Shows up whenever said "scrub" feels like it without telling customer.
Does crappy work with a crappy attitude and work ethic and a whole bunch of other stuff on the list I can't begin to think of :dizzy:

There are also those guys who are professional and lowball prices because they can and it works for them, and they still make money at it. Yes they drive down our prices but they also maintain good quality work and good customer relations. Good for them, not so good for us. They're making a living doing good work that the customer is 100% happy with. Tough it if we dont' like it :( Maybe he is using 21" push mowers hiring kids for $5.65/hour, or just uses older/higher hour equipment, who knows? Who cares?

Then there's the professional (who everyone on Lawnsite seems to be) who has all the right equipment and charges as high as possible and has 110% satisfied customers, etc. etc. He is king of the market in his mind and is usually respected or admired by others who fit into the other categories, or just respected by others in his category. He is usually successful and cocky, insisting that he does everything correctly, and that anyone else is JUST WRONG! A few of them however are willing to listen to reason and change their ways without sacrificing quality but gaining time.

Last but not least, there are those that are just starting out, have homeowner equipment, but are upgrading as allowed, and do excellent work with their limited resources and have 100% satisfied customers. They usually don't lowball and usually dont' charge the highest rates. These guys will usually grow larger and replace the homeowner equipment as they grow and will be succesful cause they dont' always listen to Lawnsite and yet they filter through all the crap and take note of all the good ideas, comments, and suggestions. They learn alot and don't believe everything they read. These are usually the hardest workers who set their goals high and usually reach them. They usually work for what they get; good for them! They don't lose their values easily.

There's probably at least one more category that we can just describe as OTHER....
Lawnsite is full of people from all of the above categories and some are very opinionated (sp???) and some just read when they can and reply very rarely. Some take it too personal and some lost valuable imformation because they didn't investigate all that was said.

I suppose everyone will think this post was a bunch of hot air from a 15 year old know it all, think what you like.... after all, it's just my opinion! :rolleyes:

Thanks for reading, I'm looking forward to more entertaining and informational reading as some share opinions, suggestions, comments, insults, generalize, label, and demand apologies! ROFLMAO !!!

Thanks,
Eric

ULTIMATE LAWN
11-12-2002, 10:49 PM
Too long Bush Hog.

A scrub is someone who is uninsured & whose majority of income is undeclared.

PERIOD.

JimLewis
11-12-2002, 10:55 PM
Eric, you show amazing clarity for a 15 year old. I wish I thought half that clearly when I was 15. I agree with everything you said. When I got to the bottom and read you were 15, I was blown away. I can't keep track of everyone on lawnsite and I just assumed I was reading a commentary by some 40 year old guy. Very well done! I think your analysis of the whole situation is perfect.

greenman
11-12-2002, 11:15 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ULTIMATE LAWN


I'm hardly a scrub: fully insured/run crews/ been in this biz over 30 yrs.. & we mulch everything. No one time clean-ups though they're all weekly of bi-weekly in the fall.



Originally posted by greenman
Were you talking about yourself here or were you quoting someone elses words?

So? Whats the answer?

rodfather
11-12-2002, 11:31 PM
The "answer" is you do (1) what you have to do to get the job done, (2) make the customer happy, and (3) make a profit.

Done deal...enough said.

kjfaulk
11-12-2002, 11:46 PM
:blob1: :blob4: :blob3: Alright, a Jerry Springer show on Lawnsite, way to go.

Nebraska
11-12-2002, 11:58 PM
There is a song that I hear every once in a while on the radio....goes something like this: "too much time on my hands....."

There is a lot of B.S. on this site .... There is also a ton of valuable information and ideas shared on this site.

To mulch or not?

The answer lies in the question(s): Did we meet or exceed the customers expectations? If not, someone is going to come along that can meet and exceed that customers expectations. What happens then?

Some of you are going to read into that as an endorsement for mulching. Some of you are going to read it as an endorsement for bagging. If you do either you've missed my point....

bilbo7021
11-13-2002, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by Nebraska

The answer lies in the question(s): Did we meet or exceed the customers expectations? If not, someone is going to come along that can meet and exceed that customers expectations. What happens then?



And if anyone can't figure this simple rule out........they shouldn't be in business, no matter what business you're in

FrankenScagMachines
11-13-2002, 09:18 AM
Thanks for the kind words Jim. While I have not yet figured out how to mulch and get the same results as have been shown in as few passes, I am sure it is possible to get these results with practice and the right combination of variables. Now, whether the customer wants mulching or bagging, thats the question. If they want mulching, for just alittle more than price of mowing even if it takes several passes, then they can have that. Bagging will be even more but it's price includes on spot disposal (for those in the country, large lot setting or with city curb pickup). Add extra if I have to haul it off. Simple. That way mulching is done for a reduced cost to me and reduced price to customer, but only if they want, not cutting any corners because that was what the customer wanted. My personal favorite method is to mulch everything once, discharging, then use the catcher. You won't have to empty the catcher as much and there will be less debris left. Breaks down quicker in a compost pile. It's upto them. I will only mulch if there is a small amount of leaf coverage, or just until they fall heavily. But it gives the customer more options and a reduced cost to me and them. Or if they say do what it takes, then I will mulch until they really come down then I will mulch first then use the catcher in two passes. Bill customer, end of story.
Mulching only works in certain conditions. Period.
Thanks for reading,
Eric

naturescape
11-13-2002, 10:30 AM
And I don't mean anything by this, but, the one time I've tried to mulch it didn't look very good.

IBGreen,

ONE TIME?!? Come on! It's a cliche but true, practice makes perfect.

ULTIMATE LAWN
11-13-2002, 11:22 AM
I hate to beat a dead horse but the simple fact is that if you are doing weeky or bi-weekly clean-ups the customer will not even realize you are no longer bagging as the leaves are still falling between clean-ups.

I switched over 150 customers from a strict bagging & hauling routine to mulching, all high end residential. Only 3 customers asked what the dust was on their lawn during the clean-up sched. & after the final clean-ups you could not tell if it had been mulched or bagged. The lawns all looked healthier the next year, mind we did do Lime treatments on 4 of the heavily Oaked lawns.

I still believe most of the LCO's in my area at least who continue to bag their weekly contracts only do so because they have invested huge $$$$ in bag & haul equip.. My jobs are right next door to theirs & my prices are the highest in the area.

One time clean-ups, are I will admit an entirely different situation.

dr grass
11-13-2002, 04:03 PM
wow this is a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn nnnnnnngggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg thread!!!! very good topic. im confused as hell now though. i think im just gonna dump gas on the leaves and burn them there on the spot!!! that will shut everyone up!!!!! lol hahah ... gotta find the humor in everything or be a crazy man!!!


shep :dizzy:

naturescape
11-13-2002, 06:14 PM
wow this is a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
nnnnnnngggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg thread!!!! very good topic.

It is a long thread. Let's see, I start a thread called "Leaf Mulching Answers", LGF comes into it and raises such a fuss that the LS moderator comes in and closes it down. Then LGF starts a new thread the next day, then stays quiet. Then it becomes an even longer thread. C'mon, I wish I could get some credit for this! LOL

Nebraska
11-13-2002, 06:25 PM
I take back my endorsement of nothing.....


So lets add more fuel to your fire!
In moderate to heavy leaf cover you are doing the customer dis-service by mulching leaves; as well as yourself (someone else is going to come along that does it better, for more money, and actually SELL it away from you).

It's a no brainer that when leaves slowly fall in the beginning you can mulch for the first few times but in moderate to heavy leaf cover it will not look as good as if you picked them up.

If you do mulch in heavy leaf cover I have to agree with JIM LEWIS! You ARE a scrub if you mulch them up and leave the property looking like crap.

1MajorTom
11-13-2002, 06:28 PM
Quote: C'mon, I wish I could get some credit for this! LOL

Ok Ray, we'll give you some credit here. ;)
The mulching/bagging debate sure is a hot topic this 2002 season. I don't remember it being so widely discussed in previous years. I guess this year, we owe it all to naturescape. How's that for credit? :laugh:

bubble boy
11-13-2002, 07:56 PM
ňh it goes back further than you nature, there are at least two other threads on the topic from the last two weeks.

you know nebraska's statement is really not that far off from the answer. the debate lies in when you must bag. and to be honest i want to find a method that allows me to push that point further.

here's a question-remember when threads had those-how many who only mulch do it WITHOUT an anti blow out baffle?

The Lawn Choupique
11-13-2002, 08:11 PM
The best way to go is to rake the leaves up in a pile and burn them. This way there is no mulching or hauling leaves off. And it makes the customers feel better.

HOMER
11-13-2002, 08:25 PM
What's a rake?:rolleyes:

Burn leaves in your customers lawn?

I've read it all now!

greenman
11-13-2002, 08:38 PM
Originally posted by The Lawn Choupique
The best way to go is to rake the leaves up in a pile and burn them. This way there is no mulching or hauling leaves off. And it makes the customers feel better.

Yeah, plus it makes the neighborhood smell good, and it gives the police and the fire department something to do.

naturescape
11-13-2002, 09:38 PM
ňh it goes back further than you nature, there are at least two other threads on the topic from the last two weeks.

Bubbleboy,
Yeah, I know that. But it was my thread that seemed to get LGF so riled up.

And thank you, Jodi.:p

Premo Services
11-13-2002, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by The Lawn Choupique
The best way to go is to rake the leaves up in a pile and burn them. This way there is no mulching or hauling leaves off. And it makes the customers feel better.

There you go!!!
A wise man indeed!!!!!















But then what would I do with my new eb7001 blower:eek:

Nebraska
11-14-2002, 12:07 AM
What's wrong guys..... can't handle the truth?

Rip on Jim then just snooze?

GroundKprs
11-14-2002, 12:13 AM
I wonder why there are never any pictures of the fabulous "mulching to dust" of leaves. Is it because they all look like the pic below? Something like that is not acceptable for many of us on this forum. If you want more of a description, see <a href="http://hometown.aol.com/groundkprs/index.html">Leaf Mulching?</a>. And I mean what I say there about someone really showing how it's done. We've all heard enough of the spouting from both sides.

Another point, we are in the "Commercial Lawn Care" forum. Nothing anywhere about "Professional" in this forum. Any yahoo can post here. If someone has to say how professional he is, I automatically class him with the used car salesman who tells you how honest he is! Professionalism is not something you confer on yourself - it has to be conferred by others, your peers and/or clients. The old professions of doctors and lawyers are full of quacks and shysters today. Lawn care is no different, just easier to get into.

greenman
11-14-2002, 12:27 AM
Somebody buy me a digital camera, and I will show you some "very acceptable" pics. Groundkprs-what if take some pics with regular camera and send them to you, will you post them?

Darryl G
11-14-2002, 12:30 AM
Right under the Commercial Lawn Care link it says this: "This forum is setup for professional lawn care discussions. Please keep topics related to lawn care."

GroundKprs
11-14-2002, 12:36 AM
Geez! Small minds! The conjugation of that sentence will show it is stating "professional discussion." Nothing I've ever seen on this forum limiting it or holding it only open to "professional operators."

Good lawyers have professional discussions with shyster lawyers all the time.

Darryl G
11-14-2002, 12:43 AM
Ummmm, and the commercial part means?

KLMlawn
11-14-2002, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by kjfaulk
:blob1: :blob4: :blob3: Alright, a Jerry Springer show on Lawnsite, way to go.

Need I say more ?????????????????

GroundKprs
11-14-2002, 12:57 AM
Commercial means "doing something for money."

Sorry, this is my last statement here. If anyone needs to cry anymore, send me an email instead of wasting bandwidth!!

If you have to spout about being a professional, you are not a professional! PERIOD!!!!

LAWNGODFATHER
11-14-2002, 03:08 AM
Originally posted by Evan528
LGF, no matter how many times you say it....people still think they can mulch huge amounts of leaves. In reality.... Ive yet to see a before and after pic of a mulched yard where they had nearly the volume of leaves as most of my accounts. At my accounts, by time you blow out the beds and blow off the hard surfaces you already have 2-3 ft of leaves piles around the parimeter. The amount of leaves on my properies I know would bog my DC is I even tried to mulch them with the OCDC down. Lets get real guys!!!!!:rolleyes:

Evan post that pic of you in front of that pile of leaves with your truck.

SLS
11-14-2002, 03:42 AM
Yeah, I too want to see someone mulch a 25 foot tall pile of soaking wet oak leaves! No, make that a 50 foot pile!

C'mon...show us the pics! I dare ya! I wanna see some dust! :D

crawdad
11-14-2002, 07:36 AM
Originally posted by HOMER
What's a rake?:rolleyes:

Burn leaves in your customers lawn?

I've read it all now!

No you push them into the garden before burning, didn't you read my post on page 4?

Originally posted by crawdad
........ The best way to take care of leaves, according to me, is, Mount your leaf dozer on your mower, push 'em into the garden, and drop a match on them. Sit there with a cold beverage, and watch the fire. No landfills being filled up, no pile in the back woods, no leaf mulch in the yard. The garden will benefit, too. Next step, collect money from happy customer.

bubble boy
11-14-2002, 11:13 AM
you know groundkprs that pic really says it all. indeed unacceptable, when i talk about there being a point when you must bag, thats it. and the thing is in the pic the leaf cover is not that bad, you can still see grass.

some of us know that when you get leaf cover 3 or 4 times that mulching is for fools.

my guess is that we won't see close up pics. cause as good as some pics look from 30 ft, up close another story

SLS
11-14-2002, 02:33 PM
Anyone can do a crumby mulching job. I wonder if it is possible to do a bad vac, or bag, job too?

I was out scrubbing, er...I mean mulching today and snapped a few pics.

Here is a maple that finally cut loose:

http://hifiparty.home.att.net/maplemulch1.jpg

Now, here is 4 passes with my Lazer Z (all forward...no reverse) that has the Micro-Mulch kit and blowout baffle installed. I have freshly sharpened Gators mounted (no doubles). Admitedly, the first two passes were slow...and riding the deck up and down to avoid "bulldozing" the leaves. :

http://hifiparty.home.att.net/maplemulch2.jpg

Here is a "before" closeup:

http://hifiparty.home.att.net/maplemulch3.jpg

And here is an "after" closeup:

http://hifiparty.home.att.net/maplemulch4.jpg

Do I really need to break out the magnifying glass???


I'm not saying that this is the 'best', or 'fastest', or anything else like that. Honestly, I'm very happy that out of 36 accounts I only have to deal with this type of maple at 4 of them (about 10 of these trees total). Otherwise, I'd already be handleing this whole thing differently. Everyone is going to have different scenarios to deal with...and should deal with them in the best way that they can. I can see where some guys could not make it practically without a bagger, or vacuum. But, some guys just don't have the need for them either. As long as the finished result is nice, and the customer is pleased,...then I say hoorah!

I would love to demo a Ultra-Vac, PECO, or some other vacuum system...but I would hate dealing with the hauling and dumping regardless....but if it saves me a bunch of time, and makes me more money, I'm all for it....maybe next fall. :D

All I'm trying to point out here is that mulching is a feasable alternative to those who have the equipment, and patience, to do so. That's all.

All the methods and techniques are great...as long as the finished results are great as well.

P.S.: I'm praying that this customer wont fire me. ;)

bubble boy
11-14-2002, 03:50 PM
thanks for posting SLS. that does look acceptable to me, in fact it looks really good. why no doubles, blowout?

now if i had results like that i might consider. the only thing is 4 passes is a lot. mind you i don't have to haul, just bag and curb it. so time for me to bag not as bad.

but those pics are EXACTLY want i have been waiting 2 weeks to see.

naturescape
11-14-2002, 06:03 PM
Here's some pics.
At this time, I am running a 48" Exmark Turf Tracer ECS with Snapper Ninja blades, no doubles (too much blow out with the discharge opening closed). It's a great blade, but I had to grind off 1/8" off each end of the blade on the left side of the machine in order to fit it (the Snapper blades are 1/4" longer than ExM.).

This is what was mulched:

naturescape
11-14-2002, 06:09 PM
For comparison, I have broke the lawn up into two areas, and will mulch the area on the left. This is the first pass over that area:

naturescape
11-14-2002, 06:13 PM
This is progress of the second pass, now moving clockwise, the discharge chute is still covered by the mulching plate (not the entire ExM mulching kit):

naturescape
11-14-2002, 06:16 PM
This is the lawn after the 3rd pass. On this pass, the cover over the discharge chute was removed, and the mulch was broadcast-discharged:

naturescape
11-14-2002, 06:19 PM
This is a close-up of the result. Any small particles of mulch you may see will be gone in a day or so:

ULTIMATE LAWN
11-14-2002, 06:38 PM
Nice work naturescape, but with double gators/proper anti-blow-out baffle & the full eXmark mulck kit installed you could acieve those final results with one pass.

We never make more than one pass until the final clean-up when beds are blown.

naturescape
11-14-2002, 06:47 PM
Nice work naturescape, but with double gators/proper anti-blow-out baffle & the full eXmark mulck kit installed you could acieve those final results with one pass.

We never make more than one pass until the final clean-up when beds are blown.

Ultimate,
I've tried everything. I usually just use the ExMark mulch kit. With really wet weather I can't though. Those pics were taken in light rain.
I definately can't run doubles and the mulch kit at the same time, it blows everywhere.
But Ultimate, let's not start bickering over this small stuff, LOL. We are basically in total agreement, I already see that. I can see you totally know what you're talking about.

ULTIMATE LAWN
11-14-2002, 07:21 PM
I'm not bickering naturscape.

Take some rubber base board material run it around the deck so it hangs down about 1/2" from the ground & attach with metal screws. You won't plow leaves because the rubber is flexible & the leaves push under. I have this exact set-up on a 48" Tracer with full mulch kit & no blow-out & only single passes are needed.

Which engine do you have?

Runner
11-14-2002, 07:30 PM
Just out of curiosity, do you attach that to the INside of the front deck lip, or just to the outside? It seems like it would work better attached to the inside.

naturescape
11-14-2002, 07:49 PM
Take some rubber base board material run it around the deck so it hangs down about 1/2" from the ground & attach with metal screws. You won't plow leaves because the rubber is flexible & the leaves push under. I have this exact set-up on a 48" Tracer with full mulch kit & no blow-out & only single passes are needed.

Which engine do you have?

Ultimate,
So that rubber attachment works for you? I may have to try it.

I have the 17HP Kaw, elec. start.

Now guys, THIS is how a thread on leaf-mulching should run. Not "I am better than you", but tips from everyone, for those interested in mulching.

Evan528
11-14-2002, 08:38 PM
Mulch these!!!!!! You cant really tell on the picture but that Pile is about 12 ft wide!!!! By time you blow out the beds and hard surfaces at this house you have about 3 ft of leaves around the paremeter.....Most of my properties are like this...so heavily wooded that you can not ven see grass though the leaves!!!

Evan528
11-14-2002, 08:43 PM
Was this the one you were speaking of Mike? My employee could drive the ZTR into that pile and get lost!!!!!

FrankenScagMachines
11-14-2002, 08:55 PM
HOLY SHET EVAN!!!!!!!! OMG thats the most leaves I've seen on the street! WOW! How'd you get them there in one peice? Looks like they haven't hit a mower blade once, and a blower couldn't make a pile that big? Leaf plow blades?

Also, to these recent pics of mulching, thanks thats nice work I don't care if it is scrubby. Alot of passes though. Still impressive!
Thanks,
Eric
PS I agree this post has turned in the right direction now, advice not arguments. :D

SLS
11-14-2002, 09:02 PM
bubble boy,

I stopped using doubles in combination with the mulch kit because of the blowout...even with the anti-blowout baffle. The blowout is greatly diminished when using the anti-blowout baffle with double blades...but still I found it to be annoying. I like the way doubles work the leaves over though...so I may have to experiment with the 'rubber strip' idea. I wish I had mounted doubles just for this yard though...it probably would have been worth the extra blowout just to see the results. :)

Another drawback to running doubles on my Lazer is that the additional 1/4 inch of overall blade thickness causes the bottom blade to be positioned below the deck baffle. Not only does this cause the blowout...but it also makes for whacking curbing and raised sidewalks and driveways when mowing up too close to them. I took a chunk out of the edge of a concrete sidewalk once when I inadvertently let the deck creep up over the side of it....OUCH! :eek: Bye-bye brand new Excalibur. Luckly for me, the customer was more concerned about the welfare of my mower than he was the ding in the sidewalk....whew! You gotta love those kinds of customers! :)

I really like using doubles on fast growing grass...like in the spring. Wide open discharge chute...yeah! Tiny little clippings!

Yeah, 4 passes seems like alot, but this particular lawn was an exception for me. Most of my clients are on a weekly schedule so the leaves never get this thick for me. Usually one pass, maybe two around some of the bigger trees (particularly oaks), and I'm outta there.... but this one has not been visited in about 2 1/2 weeks. Husband died a few weeks back and she was stressing out about funds until things get settled...and told me to hold off. Today was beautiful, and I am caught up...so what the heck...I payed her a visit anyway...'on the house'. They have been great customers for 3 years now...so I figured it was 'payback time'. Besides, I got to take a few pics of some real pretty leaves....:)

SLS
11-14-2002, 09:09 PM
GOOD GAWDY, Evan!

That's a pile o' leaves! :eek:

I'll let someone else mulch that mountain. :)

I bet there were a bunch of eager-eyed kids hiding in the bushes just waiting for you to leave...so they could jump in! :D

Doogiegh
11-14-2002, 09:19 PM
What kind of blowers and or equipment do you use to get the pile of leaves THAT big?

Do your machines push the leaves?

Walk behind blower? Or a backpack? Multiple workers or just you?

Thanks! Gary

kutnkru
11-14-2002, 09:25 PM
Well boys we lost another casualty to the baggots today -LOL!!!

I was asked to cut a property next to one that was getting the final clean-up. (We have cut this neighboring property throughout the season several times when the owners are out of town to keep things looking presentable.)

I gave him a price for a clean-up and he said "No, he just wanted a final mowing." No problem! - so I thought. I cut the back with the 60z and the front was done with a 52wb.

To make this long story short his wife calls him at work, tells him there was no way in Heel we cut the back because she cant see the grass with the leaves still there, and we tried to pull a fast one on them???

I returned his call a shortwhile later, and to my amazement he SWEARS!!! there is no possible way to cut the grass if the leaves are on top. I told him that he didnt agree to a clean-up so we mulched the property as agreed upon, and he rebutts with "You simply cant cut any grass if the leaves are not removed first, our old contractor told us this each fall."

Soooo, I guess you baggots have got the general public pretty baffled about the CANS and CANTS of LawnCare -LOL!!!

kutnkru
11-14-2002, 09:28 PM
Hey Evan!

I betcha with leaves like that you could keep MowEds Township pretty busy with that fancy machinery theyve got -LOL!!!

Wonder how many k's of lbs of twine your outfit would burn up with that bailer -LOL!!!

FrankenScagMachines
11-14-2002, 09:35 PM
Thats hilarious Kut'N'Kru!
Do those earthlings really beleive everything they are told? :alien: I've heard this is true, your account only confirms this! :dizzy:

GroundKprs
11-14-2002, 10:37 PM
Looks fair, naturescape, but I guess one could do whatever to that poor lawn. Also it is not a heavily wooded area, and you're doing mostly maple leaves. I would not leave any debris on a premium lawn. The one below has 20 mature oaks and hickories on over a 1 acre site, only 17.2 K of turf. (Sorry about the poor lawn color, it's the blasted camera - or the stupid photographer.)

So all the leaves from 16 60-70 foot oaks would have to be mulched into that 17 K of turf. The hickory leaves will crumble and decay, but oak leaves take a long time to decay - definitely will not disappear in a day or so, or a month or several. You would have to repeat your exercise above about 4 or 5 times on this lawn over 6 weeks, and you would be overdosing the lawn with debris, even if you didn't want premium appearance.

For this lawn, I can blow everything to the curb or drive in an hour and a half, and vac it up in about 45 min. Bed cleanup will take a lot longer, of course - about 15-17 K of shrubs and ground cover. The 11-12 cu yd of leaves in the pic wound up less than 2 yds in the trailer.

Runner
11-14-2002, 10:46 PM
Just technique-wise, If I had all those leaves and I happened to have had to haul them away, what I would do, is use about the last 15 to 20 ft. of lawn, and start backing over the outer edges, blowing the stuff to the outside. (Keeping the ocdc opened about 2 inches to let it discharge but not throw it far.) As I worked my way to the center, when finished, I would start at the outsides and blow toward the center. (May take a couple more backovers) Upon completion, we would end up with a pile that would equal about 1/2 a yard of dust. Tarp it, and throw it in the truck. Much less material to haul. I just thought I'd throw that in while we're on the subject. Incidentally, was this left for the city or whoever to pick up?

ULTIMATE LAWN
11-14-2002, 11:40 PM
Nice pile Evan, but my 48 Tracer with the 17hp stock engine replaced with a 23 hp Kaw, a welded skirt around the deck & double gators could have dusted those leaves if they had been spread out on the lawn.

Evan528
11-14-2002, 11:44 PM
Doogiegh, I have two Employees that work with me full time. For leaves we use 2 little wander push blowers (8hp and a 5hp), 2 redmax eb7000 back pack blower, a echo HT60 back pack and tarps!!!!! I do about 10 properties on this heavily wooded street and that house pictured just has an average amount of leaves on that street....a couple others are much worse actually! On this house we pulled about 25 15X20 tarps of leaves from the back of the house through a narrow 36 inch gate!

stslawncare
11-15-2002, 12:44 AM
all i can say is WOW id drown in that pile.

Doogiegh
11-15-2002, 01:06 AM
How do you like the Little wonder 5 hp as opposed to the 8hp? Is there a HUGE difference between the 2? If the 5 HP broke, would you only replace it with a 8 hp or do you like the 5 hp in certain circumstances for any reason?

Can you ever have "too much" blower?

You said you tarp these properties. Does the township collect the leaves or do you then use a trailer vac and suck them up and take them away?

I realize you said that there is a 36" gate so I realize that for the 25 tarp loads in the backyard, you can't get any kind of ztr or big machine back there to suck them up, vac them up, mulch them up or anything like that. I don't think Runner's idea of backing over everything would work since 25 tarp loads of the leaves were in the backyard, blocked by the 36" gate......

I believe you have 3 options since these leaves have to be removed.
1) cut with a small 36" walkbehind and empty the bagger 340 times.
2) blow all the leaves thru the gate and spend 10 hours blowing everything to the street
3) do it exactly as you do it.

And now for the question that you probably won't answer.. what kind of bid did you put down for that properties cleanup? My GUESS just sitting here dumb is $350 - 2 man hours per guy, 3 guys, that's 6 man hours, $60 per hour goal - $360. But hey, I don't have a crew so I'm assuming this is a 6 hour job.

Thanks for replying with whatever you feel like sharing!

Gary

Evan528
11-15-2002, 01:26 AM
Gary,I am going to try to answer your questions one by one.

My 5hp little wander is the older style while the 8hp is fairly new with the large fan design. The diffrence is like night and day. Not only because of the diffrence in horse power but because the larger fan produces a tremendous amount more power. I have owed and used little wander blowers for close to 10 years. In my opinion the big fanned 8hp little wander has as much power as the older style 11hp little wander. And the new 5hp as as much power as the old 8hp etc. With the amount of leaves my properties have even the 8hp dosnt always cut it (thinking about a 13hp honda powered unit). The 5hp is used in conjunction with the hp on accounts with less leaves or on paved surfaces. With the amount of moisture on the leaves right now the 5hp is not gettin very much use.

Yes, the township comes around about once every 2 weeks this time of year with a giant tow behind vacuum to collect the leaves.

You are right on target with price too....I get $400 per visit there...thats alot of leaves for a half acre property!!.

Another reason I forgot to mention earlier as to why I can not mulch 90% of my properties. In my area a big majority of the large trees are oak trees. With Oak trees comes an abundance (a understatement!) of acorns. Acorns do not mulch well obviously;)
Therefore we are forced to use blowers to get everything into one big pile....them tarp them to the street. Do you guys who mulch just leave the unsightly acorns? Hope I answerd all your questions Gary;)

SLS
11-15-2002, 10:00 AM
Evan:

Acorns? The squirrels make quick work out of those around here. A few deer around here help them too. :)

Do you have to cover those piles with something while waiting for the city to come and dispose of them? Down here, with the wind we get in the fall, it wouldn't take but just a few days and they would be all over the place again. Or does the city issue a pick-up schedule so that you know what day to have the pile ready?

Down here we have a city chipper service that comes every 3 months or so. I don't have to tell you what leaving a nice pile of sticks and limbs on the grass for a month or so does to the grass. Dead spot...right in front of the house. I wish we had a pick-up service that came every 2 weeks........:cry:

naturescape
11-15-2002, 11:14 AM
Take some rubber base board material run it around the deck so it hangs down about 1/2" from the ground & attach with metal screws. You won't plow leaves because the rubber is flexible & the leaves push under. I have this exact set-up on a 48" Tracer with full mulch kit & no blow-out & only single passes are needed.

Ultimate Lawn,
Let me ask you a couple of questions about your setup.
1) Did you run the rubber all around the front and sides of your deck, or just the front?
2) What about changing deck heights? That would alter where the rubber strip would be, although I think your system would work if it was set 1/2" off the ground when the mower is at it's lowest. I cut at 3 1/4" in summer, and lower my deck to 2 1/4" at the end of Fall. That's why the lawn in my pics doesn't look perfect -- even though I use a floating deck, the lawn (which is the lawn at my house, and very uneven) will get scalped a bit this time of year. It'll come back great in spring (really!).
3)Do you run the setup you describe (double gators, mulch kit, rubber blowout deflector) the whole year?

Nick
11-15-2002, 12:05 PM
Evan, Are these weekly contracts or one time clean ups? I would suggest getting them on a weekly contract for leave removel so that less damage is done to the turf. I have some like that and if they weren't on weekly contracts it would be a mess. Also when I do one time clean ups like that the turf is brown from the leaves smoothering. You will also be amazed at how much a peco vac and double mulchers will reduce that pile. I like the fact that it packs it in tight like bailing so the leaves can't blow back on the lawn. Hope this helps;)

Evan528
11-15-2002, 06:15 PM
Most of my accounts are done 3 times per leaf season with about 2 weeks in between each cleanup. I would be all for doing them weekly but no way my customers would aprove of the price I would have to charge. I would charge less per cleanup..... but not more the 25% less because I still have to preform the time consuming part.... blowing out the beds and tarping. the average 1/4 lawn would have to be at least 100-120 a week...the one pictured above would have to be 300 a week because of all the beds to blow out and the aount of leaves ever just after 1 week! If I were the home owner I would not be willing to pay this weekly for the 6-8 week leaf season.

ULTIMATE LAWN
11-15-2002, 07:12 PM
naturescape, everything in the fall is cut at 2-1/4 to 2-1/2 so deck height changes don't affect the baffle. I only use the rubber & double gators for the last 3-5 weeks of leaf season. With this set-up you could have easily done that lawn in 1 pass. Have you checked your RPM's? Ensuring proper or preferably above normal RPM's will also make a big difference.

ranger520
11-16-2002, 11:15 AM
Just thought that I would bring thisone to the top so we can beat this dead horse. Hehehehe!

crawdad
11-16-2002, 07:06 PM
If ya can't burn 'em, blow 'em into the woods. Leaves. Bleh. S'posed ta snow here, leaves are gonna be a mess.
Crawdad
this dead horse can still be flogged a li'l bit more.

bilbo7021
11-16-2002, 11:58 PM
Just run over the damn horse with a Crapsman already!

whip whip whip.....moooowwwwwwwww :p

KirbysLawn
11-17-2002, 01:37 AM
Now I an not arguing, but how do you expect to get rid of leaves in this kind of property

I would let someone else do it.

I have not bagged a single leaf this fall, not even in a zip-lock...none. There are so many people here charging...we'll free in my book and no one wants to pay to have it done. Screw-it.

A few years ago I dismissed all customers who didn't want to pay for their removal. I started working in new neighborhoods, you know the ones...that's about all the leaves I will worry with this fall. :D
http://unionturf.com/rays/boegert.jpg

Here is a photo of the lawn I maintain with the most trees, again no bagging and this is what 'ya get.:confused:


http://unionturf.com/rays/houser%20front.JPG

Maybe if either way is a pressing issue for you and your company different options should be searched, mine is working out great!

PS: On the Jody thing...to think "power hunger" is an issue is way off base. Just one example is that this thread has been read...for free....and no real edits. The pm's and email will also take time and beleave me they come. So thanks for Jodi's time being "donated", I got tired for the aformentioned crap and resigned.

SLS
11-17-2002, 01:57 AM
Kirby,

I like your plan. I do the same when it comes to 'tailoring' my accounts.....if it looks like a time-comsuming PITA lawn I politely decline to place a bid on it. :D

Within the last 2 years I've also been eyeballing the trees on, and around, the property...in anticipation of fall cleanups.

As a solo operator I don't have a ton of time, nor the inclination, to monkey around with excessive leaves. That's why mulching on a regular basis works for me...no huge piles to contend with. :)

kutnkru
11-17-2002, 02:05 AM
Ray

I never said a negative thing about the work that gets done "behind the curtains". All I said is that sometimes because of the "pressures" as you regard it - the delete key gets abused.

But yet, isn’t “comparing notes” what this site is supposed to be all about??? Or are we just supposed to talk NY’ers amongst NY’ers and NC fans amongst NC fans???

If it doesnt make sense that the posters here are sharing their experiences and views (comparing notes) – What EXACTLY is this forum for???

GroundKprs
11-17-2002, 09:49 AM
You can mulch all the leaves, as long as you only work properties with few leaves. Very good way to get away from struggling with leaf removal, if you consider leaf removal a PITA. But to some of us, leaf removal is just part of the job. And it is a good portion of our income.

I guess since leaves are such a chore, I should quit the 17K of turf place where I gross $4.2K a year. And what a fool I am for doing his 10K of turf office for $4.6k a year. Sure am lucky Mr&Mrs D moved to FL, now I don't have to lug 6 tarps of leaves out of their 0.7K back yard, and another 4 tarps from side and 0.4K front lawn - what a fool I was, shoulda run from that $1.7K a year job.

And when someone bashes a certain moderator, I'm sure by now that she realizes that the basher just has difficulties with his manhood, physical or mental or both.

David Haggerty
11-17-2002, 12:46 PM
I kind of expect a show of emotion here. After all we're discussing our livelyhood. And if someone says I may have been doing it wrong sometimes it's hard to swallow.
Just keep in mind, what you see posted on here is what your competition is saying to your customers behind your back!
So even if you're not going to change, this gives you a clue on how to respond when a customer questions your methods.
Dave

KirbysLawn
11-17-2002, 03:24 PM
Very good way to get away from struggling with leaf removal, if you consider leaf removal a PITA.

Exactly.


But to some of us, leaf removal is just part of the job. And it is a good portion of our income.

Great! I'm surrounded by new golf communities that have small trees, seeing that they are the closes to my home and I hate leaves then it only makes since to focus on those areas.

I guess since leaves are such a chore, I should quit the 17K of turf place where I gross $4.2K a year. And what a fool I am for doing his 10K of turf office for $4.6k a year. Sure am lucky Mr&Mrs D moved to FL, now I don't have to lug 6 tarps of leaves out of their 0.7K back yard, and another 4 tarps from side and 0.4K front lawn - what a fool I was, shoulda run from that $1.7K a year job.

Huh? I'm, really surprised you would even make such a comment. You are obviously successful and very knowledgeble, you have built your business as you see fit. YOu are getting good money for the services you offer, again great! For me I DO NOT LIKE doing leaves, with my local development I do not have to do them, what's wrong with that?. A local competitor did a friends lawn (leaf removal) charged $100, took about 7 hours, no thanks.

HOMER
11-17-2002, 08:00 PM
9 pages discussing the best method of removing a leaf from the ground........

Sounds like we're making progress!

naturescape
11-18-2002, 10:32 AM
9 pages discussing the best method of removing a leaf from the ground........

Sounds like we're making progress!

Actually, NOT removing a leaf from the ground, please reread those 9 pages, hehehe.

Runner
11-18-2002, 08:22 PM
Not to get off the subject here, but is this the longest thread in LS history so far? Just curious.:)

TLS
11-18-2002, 08:48 PM
http://207.44.158.62/~admin2/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28321

362 replies

14,103 views!

Ways to go yet!

dr grass
11-18-2002, 08:50 PM
runner - exactly what i was going to post! i never seen one this long b4. you have been on here far longer than me, and you havent seen one this long either. now im convinced! i think i posted on here a few weeks ago!!! lol. im still with jim and mike on this one. bag them leaves. bag em all!!!!!!!

kirby - that is the lawn with the most leaves you have!?!?!? wow, where do you live? in the desert. that is nothing. come on up to michigan (logging capital of america untill 1920's) and try to chew up these leaves son!!! like mike said NO ARGUEING BY ME!!!!


Shep :rolleyes:

HOMER
11-18-2002, 11:17 PM
I stand corrected!

It all boils down to doing whatever it takes to make the person writing the check happy. If you do that then you've done your job.

KirbysLawn
11-19-2002, 12:57 AM
Originally posted by dr grass
kirby - that is the lawn with the most leaves you have!?!?!? wow, where do you live? in the desert. that is nothing.

Yes. We have pleanty of leaves...I'm sure just as many as you have in Michigan, I don't like doing them and this is the most that I do, I choose not to mess with them. We have 70' Oaks that put off tons of leaves.

LAWNS AND MOWER
11-19-2002, 10:52 AM
Different situations dictate different techniques. Nuff said!!!!

LAWNGODFATHER
11-19-2002, 09:02 PM
before

LAWNGODFATHER
11-20-2002, 12:38 AM
try #2 for before

LAWNGODFATHER
11-20-2002, 12:41 AM
after

LAWNGODFATHER
11-20-2002, 12:44 AM
before diff spot

LAWNGODFATHER
11-20-2002, 12:55 AM
after slightly diff angle though, forgot where i took pic from

LAWNGODFATHER
11-20-2002, 01:06 AM
for those who think i drive all the leaves to one place you are incorrect.

here is 1 of 3 piles

LAWNGODFATHER
11-20-2002, 01:10 AM
pile # 2

LAWNGODFATHER
11-20-2002, 01:14 AM
pile # 3

LAWNGODFATHER
11-20-2002, 01:18 AM
before diff place

LAWNGODFATHER
11-20-2002, 01:22 AM
before #2

LAWNGODFATHER
11-20-2002, 01:26 AM
befor 3

coonman
11-20-2002, 01:29 AM
We have been in the business 6 years now. We have many very nice thick bermuda lawns on golf courses and other very nice areas. We almost always mulch the leaves. Just today after we were done with a lawn the customer came out and was raving about how good the lawn looked. Then looked in the trailer and asked us where all the bags were. He could not believe we mulched. There was not a leaf to be seen. That is funny that some people say it looks unprofessional. When we do occasionaly bag a lawn it looks no different than when we mulch. I have mulched my own yard for years and I have 10 trees in the back. It thrives year to year. The toro Recycler is what we use for most of these properties. Put a sharp gator on it and the leaves are powder. Some of the other subjects such as uniforms, I see countless outfits mowing everyday. Maybe 1 out of every 50 has a uniform, we have never had them and have no trouble keeping or getting customers. Usually have to turn some away to keep up at peak season. We took the signs off the truck when we were getting overrun with calls. Our work is all the customer cares about here. Maybe its different in other cities.

LAWNGODFATHER
11-20-2002, 01:29 AM
last b4 for this house

LAWNGODFATHER
11-20-2002, 01:34 AM
after

65hoss
11-20-2002, 01:38 AM
LGF, you should have mulched them! :D

Coonman, you can do a lot more with bermuda than you can with cool season grasses. I actually bring leaves in to bermuda lawns and mulch them in during the winter. Its different in my shade areas where the fescue is.

LAWNGODFATHER
11-20-2002, 01:38 AM
after #2

LAWNGODFATHER
11-20-2002, 01:43 AM
after # 3

LAWNGODFATHER
11-20-2002, 01:54 AM
last after

minus the leaves that fell while we worked, i must say dammm that looks clean for 1 pass!!!!

LAWNGODFATHER
11-20-2002, 02:00 AM
now for you "vulchers"

exmark tt48" full mulch kit

not my mower guy cuts next to us, so yall got lucky i could compare

LAWNGODFATHER
11-20-2002, 02:04 AM
and here he goes on pass #1

LAWNGODFATHER
11-20-2002, 02:09 AM
close up of this pass

LAWNGODFATHER
11-20-2002, 02:14 AM
here he goes again

coonman
11-20-2002, 02:21 AM
65hoss, I agree, fescue is harder to mulch. It takes a little longer to get the same result. But we still have it looking good when were finished. On some of these massive 4 acre jobs these guys are talking about we just pass on those and let the guys with the appropriate equipment handle those. We never have a problem getting lots of medium to small lawns.

LAWNGODFATHER
11-20-2002, 02:23 AM
lets not forget a close up while working

KLMlawn
11-20-2002, 03:03 AM
Nice job LGF, I especially like the last "after" wouldn't mind that view in my yard ....:D

KLMlawn
11-20-2002, 03:05 AM
BTW, did you tap that guy on the shoulder and and tell him to make sure he didn't leave a mess on your customers lawn when he was finished???

naturescape
11-20-2002, 10:27 AM
exmark tt48" full mulch kit

LGF:
That's a pretty strange looking tt (Turf Tracer?) judging by the fact that it is a METRO, and even the belts are showing. I'm surprised you proudly display an Exmark logo on your signature, seeing how much you disagree with them on the benefits of mulching, and that you are not familiar with their equipment.

BTW LGF, those ARE nice pics you posted, the lawns look good. But I still think that's a waste of the best fertilizer for those lawns, taking those leaves away.

LAWNGODFATHER
11-20-2002, 01:38 PM
Wooop'sy my bad...

I can tell you more about Exmark than your dealer. My mind was on something else last night.

Nebraska
11-20-2002, 09:07 PM
Is that guy smoking while on that sulky and doing leaves?

lawnworker
11-20-2002, 10:26 PM
Today, I was at a lawn doing leaf removal. Another dude, at another yard, was doing leaf removal with a skag walkbehind. He was mostly pushing and mulching them up. Anyway my point I want to make is his skag was doing a heck of a good job mulching leaves up considering how damp they were. Does anyone else have any experiance with skag mowers mulching leaves. I know skag had some deck issues awhile back effecting their grass cutting abilities, but I was impressed with what I saw today.

By the way, the damp leaves this year are not mulching as well as last year. Last year, we were in a dry spell and the leaves just turned to dust real easy.

I think high horsepower and blades can help a lot for tough mulching conditions. One needs a lot of horsepower to power double blades. I have to just use singles on my mowers.

naturescape
11-21-2002, 01:47 AM
Does anyone else have any experiance with skag mowers mulching leaves. I know skag had some deck issues awhile back effecting their grass cutting abilities, but I was impressed with what I saw today.

From my experience a Scag 48" is the best walkbehind out there as far as mulching leaves is concerned. The mulching plate is also fairly easily removed on those older Scag decks as well. I have experience with the 48" Scag fixed decks. I don't think the cut quality on grass is as good as the ExMark tho, although I think the Scag stripes better. I think the great discharging ability of the ExMark also creates too much blow-out when it comes to mulching leaves. Also, the Exmark mulching kit is not very quick to install/remove.

Administrator
11-26-2002, 09:38 PM
Whew

bob
11-26-2002, 10:16 PM
WOW, What a lot of posts!

LAWNGODFATHER
12-02-2002, 07:25 PM
What do you do with bald cypress and pine needles?

sheppard
12-02-2002, 08:30 PM
Demo'd a Wallker last year on a hellish yard- roots sticking up on various parts, LARGE leaf problem, steep slope that was wrecking my knees driving that 36" Snapper WB.

The Walker, hands down, made that place look sweet!

Problem- even my green brain saw that bagging took too much time and was not as profitable as mulching. (Plus the Walker is priced higher than comparably sized mowers).

The blade tip speed on my 22 Command kohler cuts the leaves up fine with a Gator hitting the leaves.

Water oaks are a problem- the leaves are small and thick. PITA!

Maples, pines and dogwoods are a breeze.

Before anyone ripps into me please read my header...it only worth 2 cents!

Cordially,
Sheppard

LAWNGODFATHER
12-02-2002, 11:35 PM
I have hear mulching is more profitable to it is less work.

Mulching leaves is less of a service and is no way faster than the right bagging set up.

There is no way you can charge what I charge to "mulch" leaves.

Not to mention it takes just a bit longer to blow out the beds than it does to vac the entire lawn.


Mulching will not get rid of bald cypress or pine needles.

I will stick with sucking up them dollar signs.






"Properly equipt" is more like jimmy rigging. Add "cove base" rubber to you deck so you can "plow" the leaves around the lawn.

dr grass
12-03-2002, 02:49 AM
wow, i think i posted on here a few years ago ... lmao! well, mike im still with you on this one. i dont mulch **** unless i have to. (like when the 721 puke hopper took a dump on me) i think its just as fast to bag. hell, i think its faster because you dont have to go over it 73928438 times to make the clippings dissipate. normally while bagging, you only have to go over the lawn once. if that doesnt work, you may have to chew them up on the first pass. they should easily vacuum up than. seems cut and dried to me.


shep :sleeping:

dr grass
12-03-2002, 02:58 AM
hey mike i was checking out your webpage. really cool man. i like the pics. is that you standing in front of your leaf box setup in the "equipment pics" section? if so which one? and how many yards of leaves does that monster hold!?!?!? :eek:



shep :sleeping:

LAWNGODFATHER
12-03-2002, 07:42 PM
I am the one on the left with the blue jump suit on.

It holds 47 cu/yrds.

Not using those sides this year so we are down to about 35

Nebraska
12-03-2002, 09:40 PM
Does that thing have a hoist or do you have to scoop out all 35-47 cubic yards?

Ever weigh it when full? How much does that many leaves weigh?

LAWNGODFATHER
12-03-2002, 10:20 PM
Hoist yes, twin teloscopic cylinders.

Weigh it no, it only has a Spicer 5 speed, so if it is struggling to move, then I am getting close to the 42,000 it is regestered at.

LAWNGODFATHER
12-03-2002, 11:50 PM
Originally posted by UREATHRA LAWN
I believe he has learned a decorum professionalism.

From the kid with the push mower to the LCO running crews. All opinions are valued & should be treated with respect & courtesy.

There is forgiveness & hope for those who have strayed.

Whatever

You can mulch leaves when "properly equipted".....

I do mulch all my leaves, I just don't leave them in the lawn.

Darryl G
12-04-2002, 12:29 AM
LGF- Just wanted to say thank you for your adamant ranting about charging hourly for leaf clean ups. I took your advise and don't regret it for a minute. With the wacky weather we've been having (rain, and snow and COLD), I could have gotten killed on some jobs if I bid them lump sum.

I still give an estimated $ range, but tell the customers that I can't guarantee it and that I will bill them hourly for what it takes. If I start getting close to what I estimated and think I may go over to do the job 100%, I let them know and let them decide what the priority areas are. I'll still go the 100% if they want, but for more $.

Darryl

LAWNGODFATHER
12-04-2002, 01:14 AM
You are welcome.

ULTIMATE LAWN
12-04-2002, 01:35 AM
Originally posted by LAWNGODFEATHER
Whatever

You can mulch leaves when "properly equipted".....



That's "equipped" & "arguing" (in the title of the thread)

Now that your manners have somewhat improved, we can begin to work on your atrocious spelling & grammar.

LAWNGODFATHER
12-04-2002, 01:46 AM
Originally posted by ULTIMATE LAWN
That's "equipped" & "arguing" (in the title of the thread)

Now that your manners have somewhat improved, we can begin to work on your atrocious spelling & grammar.

F'OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Is that schpelled right?

ULTIMATE LAWN
12-04-2002, 01:49 AM
I once again ask the Moderators why this man is allowed to display the eXmark banner in his sig. when the rules clearly state it is prohibited.

I do not think eXmark would appreciate the response Mr. Godfather posted above.

LAWNGODFATHER
12-04-2002, 01:51 AM
Originally posted by UREATHRA LAWN
I once again ask the Moderators why this man is allowed to display the eXmark banner in his sig. when the rules clearly state it is prohibited.

I do not think eXmark would appreciate the response Mr. Godfather posted above.

Whine whine whine whine whine. Have you ever minded you own business?

ULTIMATE LAWN
12-04-2002, 01:55 AM
Well, I have been told to F'OFF, & have been harassed by this member.

I for one am a proud eXmark owner & I find the posts of this member generally disrespectful & often distasteful.

If one is going to be allowed to break the rules & display the banner of a manufacturer, one should have the restraint of a professional, not the manners of a child.

LAWNGODFATHER
12-04-2002, 01:58 AM
Aint that the pot calling the kettle black.

So checking spelling isn't harassment?

Go mulch some leaves.

Who is breaking the rules?

I simply asked if I could put it there, have you ever thought your small one tracked brain would ever think of that?

No I didn't think you were ever smart enought to figure that out.

So lets stick to the thread topic and you go complain some where's else.

ULTIMATE LAWN
12-04-2002, 02:02 AM
Mr. Godfather, your professionalism is not up to the standards of eXmark. After talking to my rep. I can assure you they do not stand behind rude & belligerant behaviour.

LAWNGODFATHER
12-04-2002, 02:03 AM
Bal bla bla the thing the thing the thing.

Complain complain complain. No wonder you don't have a woman.

You can also leave the unchistian BS out out of the emails you won't stop sending me.

I do not want to be preached to.

ULTIMATE LAWN
12-04-2002, 02:09 AM
You can rest assured that I will be doing more than complaining on this forum to ensure eXmark is made aware of the rule violations & the unprofessionalism attached to them.

& I will include an e-mail you sent me stating all LS members are "dip schits".

LAWNGODFATHER
12-04-2002, 02:14 AM
Include all you want praecher man

I aint christain.

BTW I can add and remove words to e-mails also.

odin
12-04-2002, 02:14 AM
Man this is like the lawn chouique AMAZIN:D :D :D :D

Darryl G
12-04-2002, 02:25 AM
Ultimate - I believe it's belligerent behavior, not belligerant behaviour! Looks like you could use a spelling lesson and some manners.

SLS
12-04-2002, 03:08 AM
Yep, the season must be winding down. Signs of 'cabin fever' showing up already......... :D

Administrator
12-04-2002, 03:58 AM
This thread was killed by flames.

Please people! quit ruining theads!!!!