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MOturkey
10-15-2011, 01:37 AM
I was talking to my dealer yesterday, and he showed me a new option available through Scag for their mowers, caster wheels with coil springs as spokes to absorb shock with the no-flat tires. Coincidentally, I got an email from someone last night with pictures of prototype auto tires made by Michelin that have no air in them. In place of sidewalls, there are flexible spacers every couple of inches which give with pressure, just like regular tires. Now, I can see where this technology might eventually see its way into the mower market. A true no-flat tire that rides as good, or better, than an inflatable.

Along the same lines, he told me that Gravely was going to introduce a new mower for 2012, with a model number designation of either 300 or 400, which is going to be substantially heavier built than the current 200 series of mowers. I believe he said it will be a Pro-Turn, but it is possible he said Pro-Ride. And, get this, he said it is supposed to offer a true air-ride seat! I've been wondering for years why someone hasn't done this. Maybe now it is actually going to happen.

About the time I get too old to mow, they will get all this stuff figured out.:cry:

Snyder's Lawn Inc
10-15-2011, 02:37 AM
I was talking to my dealer yesterday, and he showed me a new option available through Scag for their mowers, caster wheels with coil springs as spokes to absorb shock with the no-flat tires. Coincidentally, I got an email from someone last night with pictures of prototype auto tires made by Michelin that have no air in them. In place of sidewalls, there are flexible spacers every couple of inches which give with pressure, just like regular tires. Now, I can see where this technology might eventually see its way into the mower market. A true no-flat tire that rides as good, or better, than an inflatable.

Along the same lines, he told me that Gravely was going to introduce a new mower for 2012, with a model number designation of either 300 or 400, which is going to be substantially heavier built than the current 200 series of mowers. I believe he said it will be a Pro-Turn, but it is possible he said Pro-Ride. And, get this, he said it is supposed to offer a true air-ride seat! I've been wondering for years why someone hasn't done this. Maybe now it is actually going to happen.

About the time I get too old to mow, they will get all this stuff figured out.:cry:Whats to old
My DC has a air ride seat and spring forks its like a caddy ride I hate to get off but some days I have ride my 60'' and wish was on my 72''

TheOctagon
10-15-2011, 12:21 PM
I was talking to my dealer yesterday, and he showed me a new option available through Scag for their mowers, caster wheels with coil springs as spokes to absorb shock with the no-flat tires. Coincidentally, I got an email from someone last night with pictures of prototype auto tires made by Michelin that have no air in them. In place of sidewalls, there are flexible spacers every couple of inches which give with pressure, just like regular tires. Now, I can see where this technology might eventually see its way into the mower market. A true no-flat tire that rides as good, or better, than an inflatable.

Along the same lines, he told me that Gravely was going to introduce a new mower for 2012, with a model number designation of either 300 or 400, which is going to be substantially heavier built than the current 200 series of mowers. I believe he said it will be a Pro-Turn, but it is possible he said Pro-Ride. And, get this, he said it is supposed to offer a true air-ride seat! I've been wondering for years why someone hasn't done this. Maybe now it is actually going to happen.

About the time I get too old to mow, they will get all this stuff figured out.:cry:

That is probably the same seat that Badboy had at their dealer meeting. Its a grammer seat and is light years beyond the michigan seat. I am very excited to use it next year.

I was just at the scag dealer meeting and heard nothing of those front forks????

I always thought Gravely built a pretty good mower but most seem to think they are not up to the commercial standard. Apparently they are going to fix that. Good to hear as i like to see competition between brands.

TheOctagon
10-15-2011, 12:23 PM
Is this the wheel you were talkin about?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcdmH_hVWBY&feature=related

weeze
10-15-2011, 12:49 PM
yeah i remember seeing those on tv a long time ago...they've been around for awhile...i guess they are just trying to per-fect them.

TheOctagon
10-18-2011, 04:42 PM
Any new info on the Gravely 400 series? Curious to see what they do to this new model!

Ridin' Green
10-18-2011, 05:13 PM
Is this the wheel you were talkin about?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcdmH_hVWBY&feature=related

I can see how those could be really beneficial to ZTR's, but I hope they never use them for auto's. That's all the idiots who run from LEO's need- a tire that can't be spiked stripped:rolleyes:

JDiepstra
10-18-2011, 05:31 PM
I can see how those could be really beneficial to ZTR's, but I hope they never use them for auto's. That's all the idiots who run from LEO's need- a tire that can't be spiked stripped:rolleyes:

How often does that happen anyway? And it didn't work out too well for the officer in Michigan who was killed trying to throw them out last week did it? :rolleyes:

JDiepstra
10-18-2011, 05:32 PM
Oh, and all this air ride, shock absorbing bs is just more nonsense to weigh down the mowers which leads to more rutting and tearing up lawns. No thanks. I don't have any problems with my rides.

hammmerhead
10-18-2011, 06:25 PM
How often does that happen anyway? And it didn't work out too well for the officer in Michigan who was killed trying to throw them out last week did it? :rolleyes:

Oh, and all this air ride, shock absorbing bs is just more nonsense to weigh down the mowers which leads to more rutting and tearing up lawns. No thanks. I don't have any problems with my rides.



Having a bad day are we.......

TheOctagon
10-18-2011, 06:33 PM
Oh, and all this air ride, shock absorbing bs is just more nonsense to weigh down the mowers which leads to more rutting and tearing up lawns. No thanks. I don't have any problems with my rides.

???? Weigh down the mowers????? what are you talking about? There is a small air pump/ handle on the seat that adjusts the pressure.

Ridin' Green
10-18-2011, 07:52 PM
How often does that happen anyway? And it didn't work out too well for the officer in Michigan who was killed trying to throw them out last week did it? :rolleyes:

Dude,
Kali has them almost every day. Where've you been? Do you think that those tires would only be sold in your location where they apparently don't have very many HSP's?:hammerhead:

I haven't heard anything about a LEO being killed here in this state, so my condolences to their family and friends, but if you want the facts, just start asking your local LEA, and the state AG, and then branch out to other states and ask them about how they feel about high speed pursuits, and if they are thankful for spikestrips. HSP's are far more common than apparently you are aware of, even in this state. They are on the news in the Detroit metro area on a semi ragular basis anymore. Heck even the relatively small community I live in has had their share over the last few years, and this I know firsthand from doing ride alongs with them.

michael14
10-18-2011, 08:24 PM
You can't expect a lawn mower to ride like a car and nomatter how good the seat or whatnot that doesn't make up for a bumpy yard I have run a hustler super z with flex forks and a suspension seat and on smooth ground or the road it rides perfectly smooth but that doesn't make up for a bumpy yard.
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SouthSide Cutter
10-18-2011, 11:17 PM
Oh, and all this air ride, shock absorbing bs is just more nonsense to weigh down the mowers which leads to more rutting and tearing up lawns. No thanks. I don't have any problems with my rides.

Dont know how old you are but it aint bull chit. Mow some of my accounts and at my age and you will be begging for a better ride. But maybe all your accounts air just as smooth as a concrete drive.

White Gardens
10-18-2011, 11:25 PM
Whats to old
My DC has a air ride seat and spring forks its like a caddy ride I hate to get off but some days I have ride my 60'' and wish was on my 72''

DITTO! A dixie with springer front forks, high floatation tires, and a suspension seat are all you need.

Oh, and all this air ride, shock absorbing bs is just more nonsense to weigh down the mowers which leads to more rutting and tearing up lawns. No thanks. I don't have any problems with my rides.

Then you've never tried a mower with suspension. If you had, I'm sure you would take back your statement.

You can't expect a lawn mower to ride like a car and nomatter how good the seat or whatnot that doesn't make up for a bumpy yard I have run a hustler super z with flex forks and a suspension seat and on smooth ground or the road it rides perfectly smooth but that doesn't make up for a bumpy yard.
Posted via Mobile Device

True, but man, even on a bumpy yard it makes a world of difference on the ride.

...

Greyst1
10-18-2011, 11:27 PM
You can't expect a lawn mower to ride like a car and nomatter how good the seat or whatnot that doesn't make up for a bumpy yard I have run a hustler super z with flex forks and a suspension seat and on smooth ground or the road it rides perfectly smooth but that doesn't make up for a bumpy yard.
Posted via Mobile Device

My Ferris IS3100Z rides better than my F250. Seriously....

To the OP, If your looking for a comfortable ride why not get a Ferris?

Greyst1
10-18-2011, 11:30 PM
Dont know how old you are but it aint bull chit. Mow some of my accounts and at my age and you will be begging for a better ride. But maybe all your accounts air just as smooth as a concrete drive.

This is what happened to me, i couldn't take it anymore. I'm only 32 and i was shot not from mowing and trimming, but from the terrain and the impacts my body was taking. I bought a Ferris IS3100Z and i gained 6 lbs. So one problem solved another created.

MOturkey
10-19-2011, 01:31 AM
My Ferris IS3100Z rides better than my F250. Seriously....

To the OP, If your looking for a comfortable ride why not get a Ferris?

I would consider one, if my local dealer carried them, which he doesn't.

grassman177
10-19-2011, 03:07 AM
soemtimes the farther drive is worth the dealer. there is one here that is a superior dealer.i know that is prob wayy to far, but just saying. dont be afraid to drive, especially if you have very little reason to have it fixed int eh first place.

White Gardens
10-19-2011, 09:43 AM
soemtimes the farther drive is worth the dealer. there is one here that is a superior dealer.i know that is prob wayy to far, but just saying. dont be afraid to drive, especially if you have very little reason to have it fixed int eh first place.

Ditto.

Everyone is all about how close their dealer is.

Just buy extra sets of belts and blades, and spindle bearings to have at your shop and make the extra long journey to a dealer on a rain-day.

That and it seems like nobody knows how to actually work on their equipment anymore. Besides the hydro-system, everything is a piece of cake to deal with on your own.

The extra money I save not having to go to my dealer makes my trips to a dealer that much easier on me.

....

TLS
10-19-2011, 09:57 AM
So back to the better ride.

I think this IS an area that needs to be looked into further.

I run 9psi in my front casters, and 10psi in my rear tires.

I have the flex seat on my SuperZ.

And I have the (great when new) Michigan suspension seat.


I could use a softer seat cushion, and more bounce. As these Michigan seats wear (it's gradual, but I'd say after 750hrs or so) they become less willing to bounce. I noticed this with my recent demo of a brand new SuperZ with the same seat as mine.

I don't need air, just a more durable seat with a good amount of travel.

My Flex Seat is the best item I ever added to ANY mower! If they could somehow market this as a retro-fit to ANY seat, they'd make a ton of money!

Exmark's isolation mounts come close, but the rocking is what is needed to remove the back slap that ZTR's produce.


Are there any links to this new seat?

j-ville native
10-19-2011, 10:03 AM
I am also experiencing back soreness from my ztr and I looking for a more comfortable ride for next year. I tried the michigan suspension seat and was not impressed. It didn't seem to make a difference over the stock seat. Options for comfortable rides are limited. Someone has said that Gravely and Badboy will have air ride seats next year... i hear good things about ferris suspension... and the grandstand and vantage seem to get great reviews in terms of comfort and cut quality so that's the way I'm leaning right now.

TLS
10-19-2011, 10:13 AM
If you cant notice a difference when switching from a standard seat to a Michigan suspension seat, then you either have an AMAZINGLY great standard seat, or your yards are smooth!

Michigans aren't perfect, but they're about all there is now!

Outdoor Pros
10-19-2011, 10:22 AM
I just switched over both of my gravely ztrs to Michigan Suspension seats. Made a tremendous difference on the really rough properties in terms of comfort but also cutting time.

My wife questioned the expense. I asked her why she didn't sit on a wooden, broken down chair all day at work. End of discussion...

White Gardens
10-19-2011, 11:05 AM
I just switched over both of my gravely ztrs to Michigan Suspension seats. Made a tremendous difference on the really rough properties in terms of comfort but also cutting time.

My wife questioned the expense. I asked her why she didn't sit on a wooden, broken down chair all day at work. End of discussion...

I get the same type of response from my wife on everything. Good For You! Thumbs Up

SouthSide Cutter
10-19-2011, 04:01 PM
I will be 60 in March. A fast Bass Boat, a Harley and my ZTR all effect my back the same way. Its just the jar when hitting a wave bump etc. The suspension seat on the Scag really helped. But the Ferris I run was like a Caddy. Tuff young guys will be old one day and wonder why their back is killing them.

c2weech
10-19-2011, 05:08 PM
I was talking to my dealer yesterday, and he showed me a new option available through Scag for their mowers, caster wheels with coil springs as spokes to absorb shock with the no-flat tires. Coincidentally, I got an email from someone last night with pictures of prototype auto tires made by Michelin that have no air in them. In place of sidewalls, there are flexible spacers every couple of inches which give with pressure, just like regular tires. Now, I can see where this technology might eventually see its way into the mower market. A true no-flat tire that rides as good, or better, than an inflatable.

Along the same lines, he told me that Gravely was going to introduce a new mower for 2012, with a model number designation of either 300 or 400, which is going to be substantially heavier built than the current 200 series of mowers. I believe he said it will be a Pro-Turn, but it is possible he said Pro-Ride. And, get this, he said it is supposed to offer a true air-ride seat! I've been wondering for years why someone hasn't done this. Maybe now it is actually going to happen.

About the time I get too old to mow, they will get all this stuff figured out.:cry:

Getting the tread Back to this..... Where did your dealer get the info and where can we find out more about this option? Its not on scags site from what I can see.

grassman177
10-19-2011, 09:24 PM
Ditto.

Everyone is all about how close their dealer is.

Just buy extra sets of belts and blades, and spindle bearings to have at your shop and make the extra long journey to a dealer on a rain-day.

That and it seems like nobody knows how to actually work on their equipment anymore. Besides the hydro-system, everything is a piece of cake to deal with on your own.

The extra money I save not having to go to my dealer makes my trips to a dealer that much easier on me.

....

ditto times 2. that is what we do, our dealer is over an hour away.

grassman177
10-19-2011, 09:27 PM
I will be 60 in March. A fast Bass Boat, a Harley and my ZTR all effect my back the same way. Its just the jar when hitting a wave bump etc. The suspension seat on the Scag really helped. But the Ferris I run was like a Caddy. Tuff young guys will be old one day and wonder why their back is killing them.

i was that way once too, but now it is all i can do to ride ztrs. and i am only 35!!!!!! now, i stand most times on granstands cuz it is easier on the back.

however, the kubota seat is pretty darn nice, and as long as you lube the pivot points on the suspension it works great, but another however is the toro suspension seat with iso mounts together. my god, that is smooth

mowerbrad
10-19-2011, 10:12 PM
I've owned the Michigan suspension seat and it was nice. It definately took the big jolts out of lawns and helped to cushion the ride a little bit. I would have liked it to have a higher seat back and a little more foam cushioning on the seat itself, the current padding seemed too stiff.

I have heard of another brand that has been working on suspension systems for their mowers. If I remember correctly, they were hoping to come out in the next couple years.

I think we will start seeing many brands having suspension systems offered on their machines. There's obviously patent issues that may arise, so you will have some big differences between companies suspension types.

How often does that happen anyway? And it didn't work out too well for the officer in Michigan who was killed trying to throw them out last week did it? :rolleyes:

I'm not sure how this was meant to be taken, so my response maybe a little off...

That officer was in the process of deploying stop sticks on the highway when the suspects aimed at the officer, striking him at a very high rate of speed. The officer had no opportunity to get out of the way and I can only imagine what was going through that officer's mind only seconds before he got hit.

I remember that day very clearly, as 911 dispatch toned out the call to the fire dept and ambulance service for that area. I also remember hearing one officer's voices as she radio'ed to dispatch advising them of the injuries they had (Deceased was the word used to describe the condition of the officer and suspects). That was a horrible day and I can just remember a few of us huddled around the TV and on the phone trying to figure out who was killed in the accident, hoping that it wasn't one of our close officers in the township (not that we wanted to hear that any officer was killed).

The police needed to stop the subjects from continuing on as they were shooting at the police and creating a huge amount of danger for the general public. Had they discontinued pursuit, there could have been far more lives lost that day.

The officer getting murdered (that's what it was) had nothing to do with the fact that stop sticks "don't work" or aren't effective. It was the fact that those suspects were desperate and wanted to take somebody out with them. The suspects got what they deserved when they stepped out of their car.


Okay sorry for the rant...back on topic :waving:

MOturkey
10-20-2011, 01:12 AM
Getting the tread Back to this..... Where did your dealer get the info and where can we find out more about this option? Its not on scags site from what I can see.

My dealer showed me pictures in what I assumed to be a Scag acccessory catalog. He said he didn't think they were actually made by Scag, just sold through them. If I get out there in a few days, I'll try to get more information.

c2weech
10-20-2011, 04:01 PM
My dealer showed me pictures in what I assumed to be a Scag acccessory catalog. He said he didn't think they were actually made by Scag, just sold through them. If I get out there in a few days, I'll try to get more information.

Thanks please do I am curious to know. I will email scag to see what they have to say and report back.

I love scags and have been waiting for them to come out with some type of option like this to help with ride quality.

c2weech
10-21-2011, 01:48 PM
This is the response I got from scag.

Thank you for contacting Scag. Contrary to what you may have been told,
Scag does not offer any type of caster wheel suspension accessory. It
is our view that these types of attachments can negatively affect the
quality of cut as they move.

Rather, Scag has taken other approaches to achieve a smoother ride for
the operator. For example, the Scag Cheetah features an Operator
Suspension System which isolates the operator from bumps and jolts of
the terrain, without affecting the positioning of the cutter deck to
maintain the highest quality-of-cut. Click on the following link to
learn more about the Scag Cheetah:
http://www.scag.com/cheetah.html

Thank you,

Tom Oechsner
Marketing Specialist
SCAG Power Equipment
www.scag.com

MOturkey
10-22-2011, 12:40 AM
This is the response I got from scag.

Thank you for contacting Scag. Contrary to what you may have been told,
Scag does not offer any type of caster wheel suspension accessory. It
is our view that these types of attachments can negatively affect the
quality of cut as they move.

Rather, Scag has taken other approaches to achieve a smoother ride for
the operator. For example, the Scag Cheetah features an Operator
Suspension System which isolates the operator from bumps and jolts of
the terrain, without affecting the positioning of the cutter deck to
maintain the highest quality-of-cut. Click on the following link to
learn more about the Scag Cheetah:
http://www.scag.com/cheetah.html

Thank you,

Tom Oechsner
Marketing Specialist
SCAG Power Equipment
www.scag.com


Well, hush my mouth! Tommy old buddy, you might not be offering them, but someone sure is, and apparently they are targeted for Scags, although I suppose you could put them on any ZTR.

Seriously, I'll try to run out to my dealer and find out exactly who is selling these things. Might be Monday before I can get around to doing so, though.

T Total Lawncare
10-22-2011, 12:10 PM
How often does that happen anyway? And it didn't work out too well for the officer in Michigan who was killed trying to throw them out last week did it? :rolleyes:

Same thing happened in Grenada MS 2 weeks ago..

T Total Lawncare
10-22-2011, 12:17 PM
I've owned the Michigan suspension seat and it was nice. It definately took the big jolts out of lawns and helped to cushion the ride a little bit. I would have liked it to have a higher seat back and a little more foam cushioning on the seat itself, the current padding seemed too stiff.

I have heard of another brand that has been working on suspension systems for their mowers. If I remember correctly, they were hoping to come out in the next couple years.

I think we will start seeing many brands having suspension systems offered on their machines. There's obviously patent issues that may arise, so you will have some big differences between companies suspension types.



I'm not sure how this was meant to be taken, so my response maybe a little off...

That officer was in the process of deploying stop sticks on the highway when the suspects aimed at the officer, striking him at a very high rate of speed. The officer had no opportunity to get out of the way and I can only imagine what was going through that officer's mind only seconds before he got hit.

I remember that day very clearly, as 911 dispatch toned out the call to the fire dept and ambulance service for that area. I also remember hearing one officer's voices as she radio'ed to dispatch advising them of the injuries they had (Deceased was the word used to describe the condition of the officer and suspects). That was a horrible day and I can just remember a few of us huddled around the TV and on the phone trying to figure out who was killed in the accident, hoping that it wasn't one of our close officers in the township (not that we wanted to hear that any officer was killed).

The police needed to stop the subjects from continuing on as they were shooting at the police and creating a huge amount of danger for the general public. Had they discontinued pursuit, there could have been far more lives lost that day.

The officer getting murdered (that's what it was) had nothing to do with the fact that stop sticks "don't work" or aren't effective. It was the fact that those suspects were desperate and wanted to take somebody out with them. The suspects got what they deserved when they stepped out of their car.


Okay sorry for the rant...back on topic :waving:

WOW!! Same exact thing happened here.. Worked his funeral.. But it was 2 weeks ago. Suspects survived, though they did have to be transported to hospital.


Didn't mean to hijack thread. Carry on with the springy tires or what have you...

Johnagain
10-22-2011, 06:50 PM
I was just at the Sunbelt Ag show in Georgia this week. Gravely was there with the new 400 series mower. Sorry I didn't get very much info on the mower but it did have the grammer air seat. They told me it will only be offered on this series. Sizes were 48 to 72 , I did not get engine options. SORRY.

The Grammer seat makes the Michigan seat feel like riding on a non adjustable seat with the cushion removed. I would put that seat up against Ferris mowers for comfort. It makes the scag Cheetah ride seem like any other mower with a standard seat.

Later in the day I found a dealer for the Grammer seat. The 75G series seat is the one they a marketing for mowers. They come in black or grey vinyl or charcoal cloth. (Grey is what the Gravely had on it.) It has a 12v compressor with 3.1 in travel with an integrated shock absorber. It can be adjusted for riders from 100-375 lbs. it reclines and has adjustable lumbar support. Adjustable headrest and armrests.

The bad is the price which is over $1200.00.
I will be ordering one this winter. There in nothing else out there that compares in comfort except maybe the Ferris.

j-ville native
10-22-2011, 07:26 PM
I was just at the Sunbelt Ag show in Georgia this week. Gravely was there with the new 400 series mower. Sorry I didn't get very much info on the mower but it did have the grammer air seat. They told me it will only be offered on this series. Sizes were 48 to 72 , I did not get engine options. SORRY.

The Grammer seat makes the Michigan seat feel like riding on a non adjustable seat with the cushion removed. I would put that seat up against Ferris mowers for comfort. It makes the scag Cheetah ride seem like any other mower with a standard seat.

Later in the day I found a dealer for the Grammer seat. The 75G series seat is the one they a marketing for mowers. They come in black or grey vinyl or charcoal cloth. (Grey is what the Gravely had on it.) It has a 12v compressor with 3.1 in travel with an integrated shock absorber. It can be adjusted for riders from 100-375 lbs. it reclines and has adjustable lumbar support. Adjustable headrest and armrests.

The bad is the price which is over $1200.00.
I will be ordering one this winter. There in nothing else out there that compares in comfort except maybe the Ferris.

Good info. I asked about this seat in the Gravely forum but I couldn't get much info about it: http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=363610. My question to you is how do you know that this seat is so comfortable? Were you able to test it out? If so, did you test it on rough terrain and for an extended period of time, or did you just sit on the seat in the showroom? Sorry for being a little skeptical.

j-ville native
10-22-2011, 07:49 PM
dang man... i just looked at the gravely website and the pro-ride 200 starts at $9800 so I bet that pro-ride 400 with the $1200 seat is going to be crazy expen$ive

Greyst1
10-22-2011, 08:45 PM
Well, hush my mouth! Tommy old buddy, you might not be offering them, but someone sure is, and apparently they are targeted for Scags, although I suppose you could put them on any ZTR.

Seriously, I'll try to run out to my dealer and find out exactly who is selling these things. Might be Monday before I can get around to doing so, though.

I've sent emails in to scag and got responses from this Tom guy. His response was similar to your, i was put off by him. Needless to say i didn't buy a scag.

I wanted comfort as well and i looked at the cheetah, it believe it has a way to go before it can compete with Ferris.

Johnagain
10-22-2011, 09:45 PM
j-ville,
I did not ride a mower with one on it. It was a display booth of the seats. They had a Michigan and one of theirs next to each other. You could adjust them anyway you wanted and sit, bounce and abuse them for comparison.
What I did was set them for my weight and then just bounced in and out of them to compare. The Grammer seat never bottomed out or ran out of cushion. I know this isn't the best test but just doing this test you can tell the seat is worlds apart from what is out there now.

When I get mine I will let you know and you can come down this winter and ride my scags to compare. I'm about 2 hrs. south of Jacksonville.

I want to say the gravely guy said the mowers were going to start around$10,000

Johnagain
10-22-2011, 10:04 PM
I also wanted to mention that Scag will be coming out with a 48 and 52 Cheetah. Should be out in March. They couldn't tell me engine options yet.

j-ville native
10-22-2011, 10:26 PM
Thanks for the info. I know Gravelys are great machines and I'm sure the seat is nice but at over 10 grand I'll have to consider other options.