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View Full Version : any tips on winterizing irrigation blow outs? first year


Super Freak
10-27-2011, 03:41 PM
Figured I would ask before I start closing them down this week. Just bought a gas rol-air over the summer. We did a lot of irrigation repair and start ups just haven't did any shut downs. Seems pretty simple. Just don't want to really damage anything and want to make sure I'm prepared with the right tools, etc. Thanks
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Mike Leary
10-27-2011, 03:43 PM
Just bought a gas rol-air over the summer.

What the heck is that and what's the cfm?

Super Freak
10-27-2011, 04:01 PM
[QUOTE=Mike Leary;4198621]What the heck is that and what's the cfm?

cubic foot per minute. so I put it on about 60-70lbs. Thanks for the advice
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AI Inc
10-27-2011, 04:13 PM
He knows what CFM stands for , he is asking you whats the CFM of the machine you listed?

Dont work cheap


oh yeah , and by the way , dont work cheap.

Mike Leary
10-27-2011, 04:27 PM
cubic foot per minute. so I put it on about 60-70lbs. Thanks for the advice

Umm, I asked a question, I don't recall giving any advice. :confused:

Super Freak
10-27-2011, 04:29 PM
THE CFM IS 8.9
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AI Inc
10-27-2011, 04:36 PM
does it run of the trucks cigarette lighter?

If it was 10 times that much , it would be considered a small one.

Mike Leary
10-27-2011, 04:36 PM
THE CFM IS 8.9

Get a lawn chair and a good book. Most of us use compressors rated from 80 to 185 CFM. We could winterize a system and be down the road before you even get to chapter one.

AI Inc
10-27-2011, 04:38 PM
"Hello Mrs Smith, this is Chuck from xyz irrigation. We will be at your home from monday at 2pm till wednesday at 10 am to do your winterizing."

AI Inc
10-27-2011, 04:39 PM
Ah , you wanted tips. Well first off, get yourself a compressor.

Super Freak
10-27-2011, 04:41 PM
The CFM is 100 not 8.9 my bad.
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Super Freak
10-27-2011, 04:50 PM
Ah , you wanted tips. Well first off, get yourself a compressor.

Last I knew a rol-air is a compressor. Do you not think its big enough for residential . CFM out put is 100.
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AI Inc
10-27-2011, 04:51 PM
100 is fine for resi, 8.9 aint.

Super Freak
10-27-2011, 04:55 PM
When I was looking up the CFM for it I didn't realize I clicked on a different one.
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greenmonster304
10-27-2011, 06:30 PM
I am pretty sure a roll air is a twin tanked wheel barrow style compressor that framers use for nail guns. 8.9 sounds bout right for cfm.
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greenmonster304
10-27-2011, 06:32 PM
More like 100 psi
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Mike Leary
10-27-2011, 06:33 PM
I am pretty sure a roll air is a twin tanked wheel barrow style compressor that framers use for nail guns. 8.9 sounds bout right for cfm.

Hmm, who's on first?

greenmonster304
10-27-2011, 06:42 PM
http://www.rolair.net/products/wheeled_gas/index.html
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Mike Leary
10-27-2011, 06:47 PM
http://www.rolair.net/products/wheeled_gas/index.html

Looks like cool stuff, if one was doing side shingling or roofing. :confused:
Moving water is a lot different than stapling or gun-nailing.

Wet_Boots
10-27-2011, 06:57 PM
the largest Rolair could be a functional truckmount, but the 8.9 cfm with the twin tanks would be a poor choice

Super Freak
10-27-2011, 09:57 PM
Thanks for all the help. LOL :-) I understand my compressor is not as good as everyone else on here. Just wanted some more info on what adapters, etc I should have so that I'm prepared when I start with no surprises. Haha Not that it matters. Basicly the only thing I got out of this is that I have a piece of shizit air compressor that won't work and if I use it it will take me 2 days. Also I learned there are a few that actually know how to surf the internet to find things. :-)
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Wet_Boots
10-27-2011, 10:04 PM
You basically have a homeowners compressor with an engine - why not rent one, if you have any amount of work to do?

Super Freak
10-27-2011, 10:22 PM
Yeah I figured that much out. Thanks. Ok so if I have a 150cfm output compressor. Any advice
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greenmonster304
10-27-2011, 10:23 PM
Thanks for all the help. LOL :-) I understand my compressor is not as good as everyone else on here. Just wanted some more info on what adapters, etc I should have so that I'm prepared when I start with no surprises. Haha Not that it matters. Basicly the only thing I got out of this is that I have a piece of shizit air compressor that won't work and if I use it it will take me 2 days. Also I learned there are a few that actually know how to surf the internet to find things. :-)
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You don't have a piece Sh!t it's just not the right tool for the job. As far as adapters I carry and assortment of bushings and hose to pipe thread adapters and a small 3/8 nipple for back flow test ports but it all depends on what kind of systems you work on and what kind of hose you ar using.
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Stuttering Stan
10-27-2011, 10:28 PM
Or sub it out to a professional irrigator and make a little cash for doing nuttin. I realize everyone has to start somewhere but it sounds like you have very little knowledge regarding this subject.

Kiril
10-27-2011, 10:49 PM
I realize everyone has to start somewhere but it sounds like you have very little knowledge regarding this subject.

Careful stan .... you might get labeled as an inherently mean arrogant elitist prick. :laugh: :waving:

Super Freak
10-27-2011, 10:53 PM
Or sub it out to a professional irrigator and make a little cash for doing nuttin. I realize everyone has to start somewhere but it sounds like you have very little knowledge regarding this subject.

I do in this because I enjoy working out side making people happy and making as much money as possible. I agree everyone has to start somewhere and I'm starting now that's why I asked for some friendly advice. This how I learn as much as possible to build my company to its fullest potential. this summer I started doing irrigation start ups, repairs, adding new zones. I just want to grow slow n steady cause I don't want to get to big to fast then fall on my face. Next year I am going to hire a irrigation tec to build it more. This is stuff doesn't take a rocket scientist just a little info. I know how to do it but I also know there is always something that comes up during jobs. So next year I will higher a irrigation tec to start a new journey for my company. I know plenty of guys that use these compressors just have to turn it up to 80lbs and they work fine. I'm only doing residential yards I think the max system is 14. So I'm not really worried.

GO BIG OR GO HOME.
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Wet_Boots
10-27-2011, 11:00 PM
Turn the pressure up to 120 psi - more fun that way :p

Super Freak
10-27-2011, 11:06 PM
Turn the pressure up to 120 psi - more fun that way :p

It's raining enough here the yard doesn't need my help
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GreenI.A.
10-27-2011, 11:21 PM
Im looking at the roll-air site and am not seeing anything near 100 cfm. What model did you get

Super Freak
10-28-2011, 12:00 AM
Im looking at the roll-air site and am not seeing anything near 100 cfm. What model did you get

Not sure. At this time. I just wanted info on winterizing blow outs. Not what kind of compressor I have. I can get any compressor I want I just picked this up from a mutual friend that only used it 3 times for a $100.
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FIMCO-MEISTER
10-28-2011, 01:24 AM
Careful stan .... you might get labeled as an inherently mean arrogant elitist prick. :laugh: :waving:

I've added this repeating bs to the Kiril bingo game. funny once boring now.

Kiril
10-28-2011, 02:52 AM
I've added this repeating bs to the Kiril bingo game. funny once boring now.

Yea ... funny when it's coming out of your mouth .... right?

AI Inc
10-28-2011, 05:16 AM
well be sure to bring an offset screwdriver



















In case kirl installed the backflow.

HBFOXJr
10-30-2011, 06:57 PM
Why don't you surprise us and charge 100% of the going rate of the big contractors in your area. Now that would be refreshing.

Wet_Boots
10-30-2011, 07:28 PM
I'm surprised no one called during yesterday's snowstorm :dizzy:

DEPENDABLE LANDSCAPING
10-30-2011, 08:31 PM
Super freak.
like everyone else I would recommend a larger compressor. Look for the cfm not pressure. Take your time and money make sure zones are fully blown out. Accessories you may need include plenty of line, screwdriver, pump pliers, 1/2 inch silcock, 3/4 silcock, mkalso make sure ball valves, and bleeder valves on back flow are half open over winter months. Give me a pm if you need to. The truth is most irrigation only guys don't like to share.
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Wet_Boots
10-30-2011, 08:38 PM
...............The truth is most irrigation only guys don't like to share.
Posted via Mobile Deviceprove us wrong - post your SS number and your bank account PINs :)

GreenI.A.
10-30-2011, 09:11 PM
prove us wrong - post your SS number and your bank account PINs :)

Ill settle for dirty picks of his wife or girlfriend. As long as shes not a fatty
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DEPENDABLE LANDSCAPING
10-31-2011, 09:25 AM
Typical
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Mike Leary
10-31-2011, 11:45 AM
The truth is most irrigation only guys don't like to share.

That's a crock and a half, this forum has shared tons of helpful info in many threads about winterizing. What you may be taking as "don't like to share" are many well-meaning suggestions that an inexperienced person should not get in over their heads and cause some very expensive damage. :hammerhead:

DEPENDABLE LANDSCAPING
10-31-2011, 01:20 PM
Whatever you say but I gotta tell you that has not been my experience. And not to single you out mike but not to long ago you wrote on a thread something to the effect of why should I give my experience to someone else. Again not starting a pissing match but all this guy wanted was some advice and ended up getting harassed. Is that what should happen? Good luck to all.
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AI Inc
10-31-2011, 01:33 PM
If he installed the system he will know how to winterize it. If he didnt , then is is stealing someone elses customer. No , we are not willing to help him do that.

DEPENDABLE LANDSCAPING
10-31-2011, 02:28 PM
Have A good day.
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Wet_Boots
10-31-2011, 02:58 PM
we'll manage - try not to steal from widows and orphans

Mike Leary
10-31-2011, 04:00 PM
Have A good day.

No thanks, I have other plans.

Mdirrigation
10-31-2011, 09:29 PM
If you show up to someones house with one of those tiny compressors and the previous contractor had a tow behind compressor 80 cfm or greater , you are going to look like some amatuer . you will not get the volume of air necessary to do the job correctly . it may appear to blow out the water , but it wont get enough , Spring time will tell , you may get lucky and we have a mild winter , and have no damage , or you will get a deep freezing winter and you will have damage to the systems . nothing like working 2 or 3 weeks for free fixing your screw ups .

I have one of those small gas compressors , I use it for sealcoating , its 9 cfm . Last year I threw it in my van along with my 125 cfm tow behind and blew out a system with the small compressor , a 9 zone residential system took over an hour and a half . Now to check how well it worked I fired up the big one and blew it out again , there was pleanty of water left , enough that there would have been damage in the spring . I can blow out the same 9 zone system in 15 minutes with the big compressor .

You have gotten some good advice , use the right tool for the job . I can install an entire sprinkler system with a $ 25.00 shovel , but I decided to buy a $ 30,000 vibratory plow . Thats with 1983 dollars , 2 jobs sold , i am still out there quite a few years later.
I rented compressors the first 2 years then I bought a used gas 185 cfm for $500.
It lasted 4 years until I found good used 125 diesel . Still have the original plow , the 125 compressor plus 2 more plows and 3 compressors .

The little compressor is a waste of time , fittings for blowouts will be what ever works in your area .

DanaMac
10-31-2011, 09:39 PM
The smaller 29 cfm compressor we got for in the van actually works quite well. I can't send him to very big systems, but on a 8 zone system he is still out of there in 30 minutes unless there is something funky going on. I still think the majority of the time spent is driving, getting set up, talking with customer and getting paid, and packing back up. The time spent blowing out is minimal, unless it is one of Mike's "megas". But standard tract home systems are get in, get paid, get gone.
I showed up to one today, 5 zone system, took me 12 minutes from the time I parked to the time I left. Access was on the side of the house, dragged hose 30 feet, two zones at a time. plus I knew it was drained and knew that nobody was home.

Mike Leary
10-31-2011, 09:46 PM
you are going to look like some amateur . you will not get the volume of air necessary to do the job correctly . it may appear to blow out the water , but it wont get enough ,The little compressor is a waste of time

Well said, and I believe that's the only point we try to make to the newbies, even though they seem to take umbrage. "Dig it or leave". :)

DIXIECONTRACTING
11-04-2011, 10:25 AM
"Hello Mrs Smith, this is Chuck from xyz irrigation. We will be at your home from monday at 2pm till wednesday at 10 am to do your winterizing."

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

DIXIECONTRACTING
11-04-2011, 10:30 AM
The CFM is 100 not 8.9 my bad.
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Super Freak rol-air does not even make a 100 CFM compressor as per their website

Mike Leary
11-05-2011, 11:46 AM
I remember like it was yesterday, and the vision will stay with me forever, when, on my first winterize, I launched a Stream Rotor 12" that missed my chin by inches. To the moon, Alice! :dizzy:

DanaMac
11-05-2011, 11:50 AM
I was blowing out a townhome system yesterday, the one with the wiring damage from another post. I was using the remote to turn zones on and off to figure which ones were in what order now. I was standing in a big open grass area, covered in 4" of snow, turned on #6 - and BAM!! - I20 sprays me right in the back and my rear end.

Mike Leary
11-05-2011, 11:57 AM
BAM!! - I20 sprays me right in the back and my rear end.

What's the old saying?, "Never turn your back on a sprinkler." :laugh: We carried a silver dollar on board the s.t. and my guys never got tired of planting the $ on top of a rotor head. When the newbie bent over to pick it up, the guys fired the remote. It was always funny and continued through the years.

Wet_Boots
11-05-2011, 12:10 PM
I got a backside spray the other day, winterizing a townhome system with the dinky. Being a thorough sort of fellow, I decide to give one lawn zone an extra shot of full-pressure air, so I close the blowout valve and let pressure build. Open the blowout valve again and the shrub zone I'm standing in the middle of sprays me but good.

DanaMac
11-05-2011, 12:32 PM
Nothing like kneeling down at a manifold to open a valve, and getting sprayed either in the face or in the crotch.

Wet_Boots
11-05-2011, 12:44 PM
Another reason for a remote :)

AI Inc
11-05-2011, 03:16 PM
Nothing like kneeling down at a manifold to open a valve, and getting sprayed either in the face or in the crotch.

I was squating ( no boots , not living at someone elses house) next to a VB , opened a valve and a pgh came flying up and cought me in the nuts.

Mike Leary
11-05-2011, 03:31 PM
I was squating ( no boots , not living at someone elses house) next to a VB , opened a valve and a pgh came flying up and cought me in the nuts.

:laugh: Lucky it was not a I-40, or you'd be singing high voice in the choir.

Wet_Boots
11-05-2011, 03:36 PM
Yet another reason for a remote :)

Hogjaw
11-05-2011, 11:47 PM
Not sure. At this time. I just wanted info on winterizing blow outs. Not what kind of compressor I have. I can get any compressor I want I just picked this up from a mutual friend that only used it 3 times for a $100.
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google rainbird's site and there is a step by step instruction, including compressor cfm recommendation and pressure. Might be good to print for reference.

Thank way you'll not have to read through all the junk that's been posted here.

Have used small compressor in past with no problem. D

Good luck!

DanaMac
11-06-2011, 01:14 AM
google rainbird's site and there is a step by step instruction, including compressor cfm recommendation and pressure. Might be good to print for reference.

Thank way you'll not have to read through all the junk that's been posted here.

Have used small compressor in past with no problem. D

Good luck!

Because what Rainbird says is gospel? :confused:

Super Freak
11-06-2011, 05:39 PM
google rainbird's site and there is a step by step instruction, including compressor cfm recommendation and pressure. Might be good to print for reference.

Thank way you'll not have to read through all the junk that's been posted here.

Have used small compressor in past with no problem. D

Good luck!


Thanks hogjaw, that's what I was trying to figure out. I used my air compressor that puts out 8.9 cfm and it worked perfect. I was at most of them for only 10-20min and they were anywhere from 6-11 zones.

Thanks dude
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Mike Leary
11-06-2011, 06:27 PM
Thanks hogjaw, that's what I was trying to figure out. I used my air compressor that puts out 8.9 cfm and it worked perfect. I was at most of them for only 10-20min and they were anywhere from 6-11 zones.

Unfortunately, you have clue zero with that dweeb cfm that you even excavated the system. With a tiny system like 6-11, in five minutes, most of us were in and out with our 125s and KNEW the system was purged.

DEPENDABLE LANDSCAPING
11-06-2011, 06:57 PM
Superfreak.
With that small of a compressor you really have to make sure you have evacuated the system completely.
It sounds like you may be in and out to quickly for that size of a machine. Just be careful and good luck.
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Mike Leary
11-06-2011, 07:26 PM
Thread over with; why anyone would think we tow big mothering compressors around, jackknife them in driveways, pay for rentals or buy/maintain our own because we like to waste money? If there were a cheaper way without compromising our reputation and our understanding of hydraulics, don't you think we'd do it? :dizzy:

Super Freak
11-06-2011, 07:33 PM
Unfortunately, you have clue zero with that dweeb cfm that you even excavated the system. With a tiny system like 6-11, in five minutes, most of us were in and out with our 125s and KNEW the system was purged.


Sounds like you are a professional blower. Mike..Lmao.. thanks but I found what I need all ready. I think if you don't slow down a little you might lose a few of your satisfied customers :-) lol keep up the good work.
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Wet_Boots
11-06-2011, 07:37 PM
so how many heads did you explode

Super Freak
11-06-2011, 07:41 PM
Superfreak.
With that small of a compressor you really have to make sure you have evacuated the system completely.
It sounds like you may be in and out to quickly for that size of a machine. Just be careful and good luck.
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Yeah I did. After I went through them the first time I would close them all off and let the compress build back up then burst each zone one more time. Just to be safe. For the small amount I am doing I'm not going to go pay money to rent a machine I don't need. I've talked to a quit a few others that use somewhat of the same thing or even smaller ones. Amazing how fast people talk about nothing. Haha
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Super Freak
11-06-2011, 07:42 PM
so how many heads did you explode

ZERO
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Wet_Boots
11-06-2011, 07:44 PM
you aren't trying hard enough

Mike Leary
11-06-2011, 07:56 PM
you aren't trying hard enough

The neat thing is, next year, after the system blows because of lack of winterize expertise on the part of the "contractor", the same guy will have a springtime-full of work after shucking and jiving the HO that it was "normal wear and tear". Give me a break, you guys.

Wet_Boots
11-06-2011, 08:00 PM
To be fair, if the furthermost head is completely popped up and blowing nothing but air, along with the other popped-up heads, the zone is clear.

Mdirrigation
11-06-2011, 08:08 PM
Thanks hogjaw, that's what I was trying to figure out. I used my air compressor that puts out 8.9 cfm and it worked perfect. I was at most of them for only 10-20min and they were anywhere from 6-11 zones.

Thanks dude
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Thats faster than i can do it with a 125 cfm . Minimum 2 minutes per zone , first zone is generally 3 to 4 minutes . I would hope you have good insurance , come spring you may need it

Mike Leary
11-06-2011, 09:16 PM
Thats faster than i can do it with a 125 cfm . Minimum 2 minutes per zone , first zone is generally 3 to 4 minutes . I would hope you have good insurance , come spring you may need it

Ditto. With a RM remote, on the dinky sites, we could blow two or three zones in tandem. With our 125 and a quick-couple valve, in and out quick,bye bye. I agree with the need of huge liability insurance using a compressor that was made for nail guns and pumping up tires, big time. :nono:

Super Freak
11-06-2011, 09:29 PM
Ditto. With a RM remote, on the dinky sites, we could blow two or three zones in tandem. With our 125 and a quick-couple valve, in and out quick,bye bye. I agree with the need of huge liability insurance using a compressor that was made for nail guns and pumping up tires, big time. :nono:


If the only thing that is blowing out is air does that mean they are cleared?
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Mike Leary
11-06-2011, 09:37 PM
If the only thing that is blowing out is air does that mean they are cleared?

Nope..................

AI Inc
11-07-2011, 04:41 AM
If the only thing that is blowing out is air does that mean they are cleared?
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no , with low cfm,s the air can ride over the water.

rlpsystems
11-07-2011, 06:26 AM
I wanna know how much the OP charges for this service

Wet_Boots
11-07-2011, 06:50 AM
no , with low cfm,s the air can ride over the water.In order to prove this statement, you would have to winterize with a dinky, and then come back with more air, and see more water. Who among us has done that?

Mike Leary
11-07-2011, 09:49 AM
In order to prove this statement, you would have to winterize with a dinky, and then come back with more air, and see more water. Who among us has done that?

I've not done it, of course, but even with our 125, some systems that had pipe low points had to be "burped" a second time to safely excavate the system.

Super Freak
11-07-2011, 01:27 PM
It doesn't usually get below freezing in my area maybe 7 or 8 times during the winter. Our business is close to Memphis, tn so winters ate really not that bad
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Mike Leary
11-07-2011, 01:55 PM
It doesn't usually get below freezing in my area maybe 7 or 8 times during the winter. Our business is close to Memphis, tn so winters ate really not that bad

Same with us up in the NW, but we've had some barnburner winters where we were all glad the systems were put to sleep. :sleeping:

AI Inc
11-07-2011, 02:57 PM
we are frozen solid as a rock from dec 10th till march 20th.

FIMCO-MEISTER
11-07-2011, 03:34 PM
Cant say the same for Pats defense. How about the Steelers giving up a 92 yard drive at home.
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AI Inc
11-07-2011, 03:36 PM
Pats need a new defensive backs coach. When one plays crappy its the player. When the whole sqwuad plays like crap , its coaching. There were nickelbacks in there I have never even heard of before. Think they grabbed em at the local shelter 1/2 hr before game time.

GreenI.A.
11-07-2011, 03:44 PM
In order to prove this statement, you would have to winterize with a dinky, and then come back with more air, and see more water. Who among us has done that?

I will be proving this this week. As I stated in previous threads I ran my 185 for the first 3 weeks of blowouts and had rented a second 185 for the last week of scheduled winterizings. Last week I was doing the late calls with only my compressor (already returned the rental) and guess what happened my compressor lost the axle doing 70mph on the highway and needless to say it is now down for a few weeks. I spent a day calling every rental company and contractor I know and cant get a compressor for a week. So I spent last thurs-sat doing blowouts with a small compressor that provides a constant 14cfm @ 50 psi. I know I will have to go back and blow a second time next week once I can get my buddies 185, I mainly just wanted to be sure to get the pipes above ground blown out such as the backflow and manifolds. Just as a trial the other nite I capped a 1" piece of copper and filled it with water. I am watching to see how long untill it freezes, the last few nites it has slushed up alittle.

GreenI.A.
11-07-2011, 04:04 PM
For SUPER FREAK and the couple others who believe that you can blow out the average systems with a small air compressor, I am attaching an image that shows basically what is happening in the pipes as you blow out the system.

This is the first time i have ever attached an image on LS so I appologize if I did not do it correctly

DEPENDABLE LANDSCAPING
11-07-2011, 07:09 PM
So who has the correct answer as to what the needed cfm is for a normal residential system using 1inch poly with 4--6 heads per zone? Not what you use or what you recommend or what you would suggest or with any bias. What is the actual factual answer. This thread has gone from 9-185 cfm. We have a 40 cfm kaiser rotary screw that we have had no problems with systems.
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Mdirrigation
11-07-2011, 08:13 PM
In order to prove this statement, you would have to winterize with a dinky, and then come back with more air, and see more water. Who among us has done that?


I have , just to see the difference , lots of water left over , enough to do damage

Wet_Boots
11-07-2011, 11:33 PM
I have , just to see the difference , lots of water left over , enough to do damageOn a residential system fed from 5/8 or 3/4 meter, the dinky can get you there. For the craptastic HD compressors out there, the tank of air is doing most of the work, assuming the user was smart enough to ditch the air hose in favor of a garden hose.

There is a small problem with the claim that air will ride over water, and leave it in place. It is largely untrue. For the aforementioned residential systems, it is completely untrue. The phenomenon of surface tension requires water to move along with air, when the air passes rapidly by the water. {Witness the "storm surge" of hurricanes}

As long as air is moving rapidly through a zone, to the last sprinkler head, and all heads are popped up and blowing nothing but mist or air, the zone is clear.

irritation
11-07-2011, 11:55 PM
I blew one out in early Oct. and they wanted me to mark heads for aeration, so I blew it again.
We had a few rains since and I couldn't believe how much water came out of those heads.

Mdirrigation
11-08-2011, 09:11 PM
On a residential system fed from 5/8 or 3/4 meter, the dinky can get you there. For the craptastic HD compressors out there, the tank of air is doing most of the work, assuming the user was smart enough to ditch the air hose in favor of a garden hose.

There is a small problem with the claim that air will ride over water, and leave it in place. It is largely untrue. For the aforementioned residential systems, it is completely untrue. The phenomenon of surface tension requires water to move along with air, when the air passes rapidly by the water. {Witness the "storm surge" of hurricane



As long as air is moving rapidly through a zone, to the last sprinkler head, and all heads are popped up and blowing nothing but mist or air, the zone is clear.

Under that assumption of the storm surge you just made the point that a small compressor wont . Since the winds from the hurricane dont have enough volume or cfm to move ALL the ocean water in front of the storm on to land , leaving much behind .

The rapid movement of the air is CFM cubic feet per minute , A dinky compressor will at best provide you with 9 cfm . No where near enough to do the job.

If the zone is only blowing air its clear ? You are kidding right ? That tells me that there is low pressure . Mist , I have watched guys with a dinky do that with the heads maybe halfway poped up making "mist" these is pleanty of water left .

You may want to go out and blow a system with a dinky compressor think you are making money until a good spell of cold weather hits then spring arrives . A $125.00 blow out sounds good till you replace a $6000.00 system .

A "new " company around here tried it a few years ago , they didnt make it .






Me personally , I love when sprinklers arent winterized correctly , I have a mortage to pay and private school for 2 kids .

slemon
11-08-2011, 09:23 PM
Mist , I have watched guys with a dinky do that with the heads maybe halfway poped up making "mist" these is pleanty of water left .

That's what I did. First tried 20 Gallon several times. It seemed ok. Then guy with tow behind showed me that it wasn't that good.

Wet_Boots
11-08-2011, 10:12 PM
So if a dinky is supplying 60 psi air to a zone, and all the heads are popped up and no more water is spraying from the heads, where is this so-called hidden water that is being left behind? Surface tension requires the water to move along with the air. Remember, all the heads are fully popped up and blowing a good stream of air - no fudging allowed.

In a residential system, the depth of water in a pipe is one inch, tops. Air moves through a pipe, and water in the pipe must move with it. This is not an option. This is a law of nature.

Now, if you fed 60 psi air, into a system from your 125 cfm tow-behind, it isn't going to move any faster than the 60 psi air from a dinky. What the tow-behind gives you, is the ability to maintain supply pressure at greater flows. Faster winterizing, and the ability to cope with broken heads and pipes.

If you want to prove the claim that water is being left behind, you would have to do more than just hook up a larger compressor. You would first clear the system with 60 psi air. Then you would apply increased air pressure, to bring up the "hidden water" that is supposedly left behind.

The assertion that only a massive air supply can clear the water from a system leads to problems. You can easily clear a residential system with 40-50 psi of air pressure, but a dinky at 60 psi in the tank (and hose and mainline) will move air faster than a 40-50 psi tow-behind, for a while at least. Raise the pressure, and the air will move faster, for sure, but who among us applies full-throttle air at 70-80 psi into a residential system, on the grounds that 60 psi air is inadequate? There is a point where you are blowing heads apart.

Kiril
11-08-2011, 11:14 PM
So if a dinky is supplying 60 psi air to a zone, and all the heads are popped up and no more water is spraying from the heads, where is this so-called hidden water that is being left behind? Surface tension requires the water to move along with the air. Remember, all the heads are fully popped up and blowing a good stream of air - no fudging allowed.

Perhaps if you supplied some math in support of your argument? Maybe you should start with the conveying velocity of air required to pick up and carry water out of the system and relate that to volume of air required to achieve the conveying velocity in a representative zone after friction losses have been accounted for.

In a residential system, the depth of water in a pipe is one inch, tops. Air moves through a pipe, and water in the pipe must move with it. This is not an option. This is a law of nature.

Only if the pipe is full, which it probably isn't.

mitchgo
11-08-2011, 11:44 PM
Gravity plays a large part in this as well. If air is being pushed through a pipe uphill. Say 50' long and 20' vertical head. I can easily see the air not pushing all the water up. That the air surfaces on the topside of the pipe thus leaving some water behind.

I actually would love to see lots of scenarios with pressure differences, volume differences , and gravity differences in clear pipe being blown out. Rain bird should make these videos and post them

Kiril
11-09-2011, 12:04 AM
Gravity plays a large part in this as well. If air is being pushed through a pipe uphill. Say 50' long and 20' vertical head. I can easily see the air not pushing all the water up. That the air surfaces on the topside of the pipe thus leaving some water behind.

I actually would love to see lots of scenarios with pressure differences, volume differences , and gravity differences in clear pipe being blown out. Rain bird should make these videos and post them

Also keep in mind your friction losses will increase as you pick up more water.

Wet_Boots
11-09-2011, 07:01 AM
Perhaps if you supplied some math in support of your argument? Maybe you should start with the conveying velocity of air required to pick up and carry water out of the system and relate that to volume of air required to achieve the conveying velocity in a representative zone after friction losses have been accounted for.No thank you. You can have the honors. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_energy) I want to go believing Gibbs Free Energy is some complimentary coffee drink shown in an episode of NCIS.

As long as air is moving over water, the water must move along with it. Winterizing introduces sufficient air energy to overcome the inertia of the water in the pipes. Storm surges are evidence of this phenomenon of air-water interaction. That they reach a certain height, and no more, shows some balance with the force of gravity that would want to level out the sea. What would make an interesting experiment, would be to dial down the compressor outlet pressure to 20-30 psi, maybe by adding a hose-end PRV. Watch the low-pressure blowout, to see that all heads are popped up and blowing air. Then do it over again with more pressure.

Super Freak
11-09-2011, 07:59 AM
For SUPER FREAK and the couple others who believe that you can blow out the average systems with a small air compressor, I am attaching an image that shows basically what is happening in the pipes as you blow out the system.

This is the first time i have ever attached an image on LS so I appologize if I did not do it correctly

I completely understand. I'll be going back by some of these next week with a tow behind. Don't feel like spending my spring doing repairs on cracked pipes. Thanks
Posted via Mobile Device

Wet_Boots
11-09-2011, 08:11 AM
I forget, did your Rolair have a 20-gallon tank, and did you use a 3/4-inch hose for the air?

Sprinkus
11-09-2011, 08:17 AM
I want to go believing Gibbs Free Energy is some complimentary coffee drink shown in an episode of NCIS.


Sounds like the direct competitor of "Caf-Pow". :laugh:

Super Freak
11-09-2011, 08:27 AM
I forget, did your Rolair have a 20-gallon tank, and did you use a 3/4-inch hose for the air?

No. I used a 3/8 hose
Posted via Mobile Device

Kiril
11-09-2011, 09:25 AM
No thank you. You can have the honors. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_energy) I want to go believing Gibbs Free Energy is some complimentary coffee drink shown in an episode of NCIS.

As long as air is moving over water, the water must move along with it. Winterizing introduces sufficient air energy to overcome the inertia of the water in the pipes. Storm surges are evidence of this phenomenon of air-water interaction. That they reach a certain height, and no more, shows some balance with the force of gravity that would want to level out the sea. What would make an interesting experiment, would be to dial down the compressor outlet pressure to 20-30 psi, maybe by adding a hose-end PRV. Watch the low-pressure blowout, to see that all heads are popped up and blowing air. Then do it over again with more pressure.

Without the math to show it, we have nothing more than speculation.

Mdirrigation
11-09-2011, 09:16 PM
So if a dinky is supplying 60 psi air to a zone, and all the heads are popped up and no more water is spraying from the heads, where is this so-called hidden water that is being left behind? Surface tension requires the water to move along with the air. Remember, all the heads are fully popped up and blowing a good stream of air - no fudging allowed.

In a residential system, the depth of water in a pipe is one inch, tops. Air moves through a pipe, and water in the pipe must move with it. This is not an option. This is a law of nature.

Now, if you fed 60 psi air, into a system from your 125 cfm tow-behind, it isn't going to move any faster than the 60 psi air from a dinky. What the tow-behind gives you, is the ability to maintain supply pressure at greater flows. Faster winterizing, and the ability to cope with broken heads and pipes.

If you want to prove the claim that water is being left behind, you would have to do more than just hook up a larger compressor. You would first clear the system with 60 psi air. Then you would apply increased air pressure, to bring up the "hidden water" that is supposedly left behind.

The assertion that only a massive air supply can clear the water from a system leads to problems. You can easily clear a residential system with 40-50 psi of air pressure, but a dinky at 60 psi in the tank (and hose and mainline) will move air faster than a 40-50 psi tow-behind, for a while at least. Raise the pressure, and the air will move faster, for sure, but who among us applies full-throttle air at 70-80 psi into a residential system, on the grounds that 60 psi air is inadequate? There is a point where you are blowing heads apart.


First a dinky will not supply 60 psi of air for more than 30 seconds , the pressure rugulators are set at 125 psi , the instant you open the valve you dump the tanks , now you are working straight off the compressor you will be lucky to hold 20 psi .

A 125 or 100 or 185 cfm compressor runs at a constant volume and is keeping a constant pressure of 60 , 70 or 80 psi .

Full throttle air would be 125psi to 150 psi on a tow behind , me I have been running 80 psi at the machine for over 25 years , not a problem . the point where you blow heads apart is 125 psi .


This is much like a sprinkler system designed off a well , the pressure switch on a well is set at 40/60 on and off .So you have 60 psi of pressure The system has 6 heads on a zone . the heads work fine for a minute , but then drop down . The well only produces 6 gallons per minute . (cfm)
The house next door the same configuration on the heads , same settings on the pressure tank , but the well produces 100 gallons per minute , the system runs fine all day .



A mathamatical formulia would be great , I am sure it could be done , but me we still have 350 systems scheduled to blow out plus call ins , With a dinky 3 maybe 4 in a day , with a real compressor 12 to 18 stops a day .

DEPENDABLE LANDSCAPING
11-09-2011, 09:23 PM
So who has the correct answer as to what the needed cfm is for a normal residential system using 1inch poly with 4--6 heads per zone? Not what you use or what you recommend or what you would suggest or with any bias. What is the actual factual answer. This thread has gone from 9-185 cfm. We have a 40 cfm kaiser rotary screw that we have had no problems with systems.
Posted via Mobile Device
So who has the answer?
Posted via Mobile Device

irritation
11-09-2011, 09:33 PM
we need total length of pipe, number of 90', 45's, tee's. What the connection is you're hooking in to. Air temp, humidity, fuel quality and gage accuracy. Just to start with.

DEPENDABLE LANDSCAPING
11-09-2011, 09:39 PM
we need total length of pipe, number of 90', 45's, tee's. What the connection is you're hooking in to. Air temp, humidity, fuel quality and gage accuracy. Just to start with.

600, 8 ,10,15, backflow 3/4 silcock,50,20,89 lastly guage tested accurate. What's the answer.
Posted via Mobile Device

irritation
11-09-2011, 09:50 PM
63.21 CFM, if all your systems are the same.

DEPENDABLE LANDSCAPING
11-09-2011, 09:54 PM
63.21 CFM, if all your systems are the same.

Your gooood. Did you do it in your head or with the blowerlator?
Posted via Mobile Device

irritation
11-09-2011, 10:08 PM
I know by the subdivision or just looking at the house.

DEPENDABLE LANDSCAPING
11-09-2011, 10:10 PM
I know by the subdivision or just looking at the house.

Impressive.
Posted via Mobile Device

irritation
11-09-2011, 10:15 PM
Impressive.

Yes, I am. If I didn't hate people so much I would be a great teacher.:)

Wet_Boots
11-09-2011, 10:19 PM
So who has the correct answer as to what the needed cfm is for a normal residential system using 1inch poly with 4--6 heads per zone? Not what you use or what you recommend or what you would suggest or with any bias. What is the actual factual answer. This thread has gone from 9-185 cfm. We have a 40 cfm kaiser rotary screw that we have had no problems with systems.
Posted via Mobile Device40 cfm will get you through any residential system you are likely to encounter. The real reason for a pro to not use a dinky is speed of production, not because it is supposedly impossible to clear the zones with a dinky. I have cleared 30-50 gpm systems with a dinky powered by a 5 HP gas engine (cfm unknown, but don't figure on all that much) on account of it being possible to use an entire 500+ foot mainline for air storage, which gives you an air surge large enough to clear the zones.

DEPENDABLE LANDSCAPING
11-09-2011, 10:23 PM
Yes, I am. If I didn't hate people so much I would be a great teacher.:)

I like it. Have a good night, gotta go in a.m.
Posted via Mobile Device

irritation
11-09-2011, 10:30 PM
which gives you an air surge large enough to clear the zones.

I don't have time for that.:hammerhead:

Wet_Boots
11-09-2011, 10:42 PM
I don't have time for that.:hammerhead:Who does? The first time I did the mainline trick, it was on a system I was installing far after the usual fall blowout season, complete with snow cover. With nothing above-ground (DCVA backflow in the basement) I had an opportunity to experiment with the dinky. It, with the mainline for air storage, got it done. More recently, a 50 gpm system became untouchable because of the utility room receiving a special floor coating that needed time to cure, so no one could enter the room to shut off the system water. I winterized the system on football night, sitting in my truck with the game on the radio, and a remote in my hand.

irritation
11-09-2011, 10:52 PM
My 175 CFM works hard to blow out a 50 gpm system. I have to crank it almost all the way up.
If all heads aren't fully up when the waters out, I'm not comfortable with it.

Wet_Boots
11-09-2011, 11:08 PM
The 50 gpm system I winterized with a dinky was actually supposed to be an over-designed 30-35 gpm system, but in the process of installation, an old zone from the previous system on the same property, was discovered semi-intact in an outlying area, so the new work was modified to match the old. The size and length of the mainline makes it a good enough air storage to blow out zones with a small compressor (and large patience)

slemon
11-10-2011, 02:01 AM
Per Colorado State University:
"Divide GPM by 7.5 to determine the cubic feet per minute (CFM) needed. This is the ideal sized compressor to “blow out” your system."
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/crops/04719.html

Wet_Boots
11-10-2011, 08:12 AM
Per Colorado State University:
"Divide GPM by 7.5 to determine the cubic feet per minute (CFM) needed. This is the ideal sized compressor to “blow out” your system."
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/crops/04719.htmlwe're sending CSU back to remedial school - air doesn't flow through a system in exactly the same way that water does - witness how popup spray zones blow out differently than rotor zones

GreenI.A.
11-10-2011, 12:26 PM
we're sending CSU back to remedial school - air doesn't flow through a system in exactly the same way that water does - witness how popup spray zones blow out differently than rotor zones

Also a huge factor is the weight of water compared to the weight of air. If you went strickly by that formula a 3 cfm compressor could overcome the resistance in a 22 gpm designed system.

Mdirrigation
11-10-2011, 08:35 PM
I have cleared 30-50 gpm systems with a dinky powered by a 5 HP gas engine (cfm unknown, but don't figure on all that much) on account of it being possible to use an entire 500+ foot mainline for air storage, which gives you an air surge large enough to clear the zones.


Charging a mainline for air storage ? First , I dont think you can compress water , wouldnt the mainline be full of water ?

We never have air running when the system is closed , water off , zone 1 open , air valve open , go thru the zones , shut off compressor while last zone is running . NEVER CHARGE A PIPE THATS CLOSED thats a sure way to damage a sprinkler system , you will definatly find the weak point that way .

slemon
11-10-2011, 09:09 PM
Charging a mainline for air storage ?
I asked about it in another thread. Publications that I've read suggest against it.

mitchgo
11-10-2011, 09:52 PM
I'll crank it on before a zone starts when the system is still full of water. Technically it's not hurting anything.
but
I stay away from compressing an entire empty main line

Wet_Boots
11-11-2011, 04:41 AM
You can fill a mainline with air from a dinky, no problem, because the air isn't extremely hot, like it would from some tow-behinds. Articles recommending against the practice are certainly not coming from experience with single-stage reciprocating compressors.
..................................... wouldnt the mainline be full of water ?.................................At first it is, but it's blown clear from whatever zone gets it done the fastest, and you then have it empty for the remaining zones.

Mdirrigation
11-11-2011, 08:50 PM
The air isnt hot from the tow behind , if it runs thru 150 ft of hose , heat isnt the problem , and the type of compressor has nothing to do with it , compressed air , is compressed air . filling a mainline in order to attempt to blow out a sprinkler systym is plain foolish , no one with any experience would do this on purpose . Especially those in areas where poly pipe is used for the main . Compressed air should never be introduced into a system that is closed , a zone valve should be open at all times .

I know from experience that those little 5 hp compressors will not properly blow out lawn sprinkler systems , Back in the early 1980's I was young and wanted to save money , it cost me a bunch in the spring.

Wet_Boots
11-12-2011, 09:41 AM
So describe for us the damage that is done by filling a mainline with 60 psi air. We'll wait. :)

Mike Leary
11-12-2011, 11:35 AM
The air isnt hot from the tow behind , if it runs thru 150 ft of hose , heat isnt the problem , and the type of compressor has nothing to do with it , compressed air , is compressed air .

Hmm, I wish I had my didge camera when we melted fittings (once) and trashed a lawn where our hoses went to the p.o.c. Compressors put out heat; at least our 125 did. :dizzy:

mitchgo
11-12-2011, 11:36 AM
So describe for us the damage that is done by filling a mainline with 60 psi air. We'll wait. :)

I was at 65 psi and a head popped on me yesterday. The customer was standing right next to it and got wet. It was a irritrol controller where I you have to flip the switch to the off postion- move the dial to the desired zone- flip the switch to the run position- add run time minutes and press the manual button. This 5 second filling of the main line is what caused the head to pop

Mike Leary
11-12-2011, 11:38 AM
I was at 65 psi and a head popped on me yesterday. The customer was standing right next to it and got wet. It was a irritrol controller where I you have to flip the switch to the off postion- move the dial to the desired zone- flip the switch to the run position- add run time minutes and press the manual button. This 5 second filling of the main line is what caused the head to pop

:laugh::laugh: No remote?

DanaMac
11-12-2011, 11:42 AM
I was at 65 psi and a head popped on me yesterday. The customer was standing right next to it and got wet. It was a irritrol controller where I you have to flip the switch to the off postion- move the dial to the desired zone- flip the switch to the run position- add run time minutes and press the manual button. This 5 second filling of the main line is what caused the head to pop

It was probably caused more by a cross threaded or loose connection or installed on a crummy cut off riser with beat up threads.

mitchgo
11-12-2011, 11:53 AM
I can't prove that to the customer though . when something sky rockets 15' in the air and the threads are still on the body but the top is broken off.

Typically I don't hook up the remote for winterizing. We don't have pigtails on most cause we go the alligator clip way.

Wet_Boots
11-12-2011, 11:59 AM
I will amp down the pressure when the old dinky gets replaced with another rig, with more cfms. 60 psi is easily enough to bust Orbit heads, but they deserve it. :mad:

Mike Leary
11-12-2011, 12:24 PM
I've never used a dinky, never thought about one, quite frankly. What I do remember with our 125, is with the proper psi setting, she is just "idling along", adding as needed. Generally, it evacuated most systems, but on cold-call commercial sites, when we had her wide open and it would not throttle-down, I went and got the 185 diesel, which, in the hands of children, will blow most systems out of the ground.

Wet_Boots
11-12-2011, 01:34 PM
It was a little easier with a dinky from yesteryear, because the pump would have head unloaders for continuous operation from gasoline engines. For the advanced tinkerers, you could experiment with a variable-diameter sheave, and get the pump up to near its top rpms, knowing that you were not red-lining it, on account of it never pumping air at pressures beyond your unloader setting.

Mike Leary
11-12-2011, 02:16 PM
An experienced hand will "hear" when a compressor above 100 cfm is performing optimally;
it will "bubble, surge and gurgle" as it clears the lines, no need for it to be going full bore, waste of everything, including one's hearing. :nono:

Wet_Boots
11-12-2011, 02:31 PM
There should be no allowance for "experienced hands" when you plan for employees doing the winterizing. The air supply should be adequate, but never harmful, either by way of pressure or heat.

By far the most 'experienced hand' at winterizing may have been the welder, who just barely cracked the valve on one of his 3000 psi MIG tanks, fed into the system's blowout valve. :eek:

Mike Leary
11-12-2011, 06:16 PM
There should be no allowance for "experienced hands" when you plan for employees doing the winterizing. The air supply should be adequate, but never harmful, either by way of pressure or heat.

Oxymoron, my friend. One's got to teach the pups to "hear" and know the parameters of the site. There is no excuse for melting, "popping" or under-blowing a system, except flat-out misguidance from the top. If the top has no clue, then it trickles down, so to speak. :dizzy:

FIMCO-MEISTER
11-12-2011, 06:41 PM
Just curious if the same residence has had the alligator clips installed and removed on several occasions Mitch.
Posted via Mobile Device

Wet_Boots
11-12-2011, 06:45 PM
There is no excuse for running winterizing equipment that can damage a system - none - zip - zero - nada

By the way, without valve box access, there isn't much use for a tow-behind, because the zones will be blown out one-at-a-time, as per what the controller will allow.

Mike Leary
11-12-2011, 07:02 PM
without valve box access, there isn't much use for a tow-behind, because the zones will be blown out one-at-a-time, as per what the controller will allow.

Talk about being lost in the sixties! It's unfathomable to me that a quick-couple valve south of the backflow is not a stock item. I also cannot imagine any man-jack not having all his clocks wired for a remote if winterize or service is part of the game. :hammerhead:

Wet_Boots
11-12-2011, 07:06 PM
Talk about being lost in the sixties! It's unfathomable to me that a quick-couple valves south of the backflow is not a stock item. I also cannot imagine any man-jack not having all his clocks wired for a remote if winterize or service is part of the game. :hammerhead:So you never answered a cold call for winterizing? Good for you. Meanwhile, back in the real world, service businesses want more customers. We take systems as they come, even those with valves buried without boxes.

Mike Leary
11-12-2011, 07:16 PM
So you never answered a cold call for winterizing? Good for you. Meanwhile, back in the real world, service businesses want more customers. We take systems as they come, even those with valves buried without boxes.

I answered a ton of cold calls, and if the system looked ify, I'd throw in a RB 33DLRC q.c with a brass tee and a 6" brass swing joint (to absorb the compressor heat) and they became clients to this day. Go ahead and piker on, or stand up and strut your stuff. :hammerhead:

Wet_Boots
11-12-2011, 07:22 PM
Can't sell that for the fixed price quoted on the phone. One just has to make do with what's there. One advantage to the one-zone-at-a-time winterizing, is that you get a very good idea of how a system is laid out, as you observe the water and air leaving the heads.

Mike Leary
11-12-2011, 07:35 PM
Can't sell that for the fixed price quoted on the phone.

Never, ever, quote on the phone. Talk about a loss leader:nono: You go to the site, meet the client or their REP and do a site survey. What the hell's wrong with you people? I did not coin the phrase, but I sure love it: "Long after the price is forgotten, the quality and attention to detail will be remembered." :)

FIMCO-MEISTER
11-12-2011, 07:49 PM
I believe that came from one of my old customers. Stanley Marcus

Wet_Boots
11-12-2011, 07:58 PM
I've gotten some very good long-term customers by way of the fixed-price cold call. Do the winterizing, and observe the system, answer questions, and offer suggestions. You would never know them, unless you did the winterizing first.

GreenI.A.
11-12-2011, 07:59 PM
I will be proving this this week. As I stated in previous threads I ran my 185 for the first 3 weeks of blowouts and had rented a second 185 for the last week of scheduled winterizings. Last week I was doing the late calls with only my compressor (already returned the rental) and guess what happened my compressor lost the axle doing 70mph on the highway and needless to say it is now down for a few weeks. I spent a day calling every rental company and contractor I know and cant get a compressor for a week. So I spent last thurs-sat doing blowouts with a small compressor that provides a constant 14cfm @ 50 psi. I know I will have to go back and blow a second time next week once I can get my buddies 185, I mainly just wanted to be sure to get the pipes above ground blown out such as the backflow and manifolds. Just as a trial the other nite I capped a 1" piece of copper and filled it with water. I am watching to see how long untill it freezes, the last few nites it has slushed up alittle.


I got back out and re-blew those systems today. We were able to get my 185 together enough and mounted it on the bed of the dump. I blew out those same systems again and the results varied alot. On the smaller systems the 185 got out some more water but there wasn't as much left in the pipes as I thought there would be, but I'm deffinelty glad re re-hit those again. On the larger system the 185 got so much water out that it looked as though it hadn't been blown out at all, especially wih the longer zones and the sone that was about 20' above the backflow. After working today with the compressor on a truck I think I decided I like it batter that way and may not have the trailer rebuilt.

irritation
11-12-2011, 08:13 PM
I was at 65 psi and a head popped on me yesterday. The customer was standing right next to it and got wet.

:laugh:
DANGER HIGH PRESSURE. NO CHILDREN, PETS OR CUSTOMERS ALLOWED AT OR NEAR THE YARD!

mitchgo
11-12-2011, 09:37 PM
I was at this guys house last week and he was just a dick for no reason.
In any case there was a broken marlex on a rotor that was right next to my truck and got my truck all dirty. I wished the guy got dirty and not my truck

Mdirrigation
11-12-2011, 11:19 PM
Hmm, I wish I had my didge camera when we melted fittings (once) and trashed a lawn where our hoses went to the p.o.c. Compressors put out heat; at least our 125 did. :dizzy:

Our point of connections are copper , The hose on my set ups never get hot ,slightly warm . running 150 ft of 5/8 hose on a hose reel .

Mdirrigation
11-12-2011, 11:35 PM
There is no excuse for running winterizing equipment that can damage a system - none - zip - zero - nada

By the way, without valve box access, there isn't much use for a tow-behind, because the zones will be blown out one-at-a-time, as per what the controller will allow.



it takes too much time to locate valve boxes for a blow out . Program the C or D schedule for 3 minutes the first zone , 2 minutes for the other zones . 4 minutes for the last , if zones are blowing fast advance to the next zone .
there is not much use for a tow behind unless you are busy and want to make money . Running 2 trucks we need to do between 23 to 30 stops a day , without a real compersssor that would be impossible .

And a Dinky at 60 psi has minimal cfm to keep the water moving in a pipe .

mitchgo
11-13-2011, 12:14 AM
Our point of connections are copper , The hose on my set ups never get hot ,slightly warm . running 150 ft of 5/8 hose on a hose reel .

Well you are a trooper aren't you? How's everything going in perfect land?



We have the standard 3/4 ID tow behind hose. After 12 zone system they are hot as hell. Personally I've never seen anything melted.

Though I've have had plastic fittings blow apart in which you will see a white red head dude run faster then the speeed of light to shut the valve down before it flops about to do some damage.

mitchgo
11-13-2011, 12:28 AM
it takes too much time to locate valve boxes for a blow out . Program the C or D schedule for 3 minutes the first zone , 2 minutes for the other zones . 4 minutes for the last , if zones are blowing fast advance to the next zone .
there is not much use for a tow behind unless you are busy and want to make money . Running 2 trucks we need to do between 23 to 30 stops a day , without a real compersssor that would be impossible .

And a Dinky at 60 psi has minimal cfm to keep the water moving in a pipe .


Well ... Typically I do 20 houses a day. That averages to 30 min a job with a 30 min lunch break.. So I don'tt know how you do 30 jobs a day unless they are on all the same street with 2-6 zoners. .. For us---With 5 trucks going thats around 500 a week or 2000 a month. I'll be going full board till about mid dec. temps are going to drop below freezing to the 1000' foot range end of this week so we'll be busy. I try to keep it 1-2 min per zone. IF a customer is out watching me. I will go overboard otherwise they are always asking questions...
don't know about you guys.
Theres only sooooo much I can take before starting work in the pitch black ( with flash lights) and finishing work in the night with flash lights takes a toll on me... Or are you nice too your crew and shorten hours?

Honestly it's the traffic... With seattle being #6 in the nation with bad traffic
When I tally for the time I wake up for work to the time I arrive home.. IT's constantly 12-17 hours

My girlfriend gets veryryyy angry at me for working to much!

Most of our systems are typically 6-9 zones . 95% of controllers are in garages so we have to meet the customer

Wet_Boots
11-13-2011, 08:16 AM
Still waiting to hear how 60 psi of air in the mainline is damaging.... :)

AI Inc
11-13-2011, 09:30 AM
Still waiting to hear how 60 psi of air in the mainline is damaging.... :)

Its not, yrs ago using a dinky I would use the empty main as a tank with no issues.

Wet_Boots
11-13-2011, 10:24 AM
Its not, yrs ago using a dinky I would use the empty main as a tank with no issues.blasphemer! :p

Mike Leary
11-13-2011, 10:33 AM
Our point of connections are copper , The hose on my set ups never get hot ,slightly warm . running 150 ft of 5/8 hose on a hose reel .

Must be the humidity in the NW that causes the heat. :rolleyes:

Mdirrigation
11-13-2011, 08:13 PM
Well ... Typically I do 20 houses a day. That averages to 30 min a job with a 30 min lunch break.. So I don'tt know how you do 30 jobs a day unless they are on all the same street with 2-6 zoners. .. ForMost of our systems are typically 6-9 zones . 95% of controllers are in garages so we have to meet the customer


We do 22 to 30 with 2 trucks , When the controllers are in the garage and the customer isnt home , I get the code for their door or have them hide an extra remote . Systems are typically 6 to 12 zones

Mike Leary
11-13-2011, 08:19 PM
That averages to 30 min a job

Something is wrong with your method; that's way too long for dinkys.With the remote and a quick-couple,we are in and out in 15 minutes, if not sooner.

Mdirrigation
11-13-2011, 08:20 PM
Still waiting to hear how 60 psi of air in the mainline is damaging.... :)

Keep using the mainline as a pressure tank and you will find out . Use what you want to blow out sprinklers there in ny. We get guys every year lowballing blowouts using their buddys roofing aircompressor , every spring we get calls to do the repairs .

mitchgo
11-13-2011, 08:26 PM
Something is wrong with your method; that's way too long for dinkys.With the remote and a quick-couple,we are in and out in 15 minutes, if not sooner.

same for us- 15-20 minutes is the normal - Gotta account for drivetime for the next job. getting access to the controller.. Homeowners having one million questions.. hook up/disconnect . It all factors in
Our office will throw in a few 15 minute'ers here and there.

I worked today- Did an entire new development of 8 houses near microsoft. And well I'm not discriminating against but they were all indians. Every system was 3 zones but every job took me about 30 minutes because EVERY SINGLE GUY HAD ONE MILLION QUESTIONS first thing in the morning .. I was not a happy camper!

Mdirrigation
11-13-2011, 08:30 PM
Well you are a trooper aren't you? How's everything going in perfect land?



We have the standard 3/4 ID tow behind hose. After 12 zone system they are hot as hell. Personally I've never seen anything melted.

Though I've have had plastic fittings blow apart in which you will see a white red head dude run faster then the speeed of light to shut the valve down before it flops about to do some damage.

Things are fine , thank you . If you are using the standard hose with the chicago fittings and are running 50 to 60 feet of course the line will be hot .
I have a 150 ft of 5/8 mounted on a hose reel , 75 feet of that is laying on cool damp ground during a blow out , the heat from the compressor doesnt even get close to the P.O. C. . The regular aircompressor hose with the chicago fittings it too heavy to drag 75 to 150 feet , you cant fit that much on a hose reel any way , It takes too long to pull back and throw in a truck .
We only use that hose on the large commercial systems , throw a wet towel
over the point of connection and heat isnt an issue .

mitchgo
11-13-2011, 08:36 PM
yeah.. Sorry I was being an ass last night.

One thing I'm worried about for regular hoses is the though that homeowners can do it themselves

We don't do much commercial so I'm generally not worried about anything melting. And most of the back flow devices are next to the water meter here so I generally have one chicago hose hooked up and just need to pull out a few feet. Though I carry 200' of hoses for lake pump systems and odd ball systems

Mdirrigation
11-13-2011, 08:43 PM
I park on the street , generally pull 75 ft to a pvb on the outside of the house .i use cam locks , connecting takes no time . I dont bother with the driveway slows me down too much . I schedule close and tight , shoot for a 20 minute turn around with 10 minutes travle time . I want to get a remote start and turn off for the compressor , and a remote for the hose reel , I could shave 5 to 7 minutes per stop .

mitchgo
11-13-2011, 08:52 PM
I want to get a remote start and turn off for the compressor , and a remote for the hose reel , I could shave 5 to 7 minutes per stop .

That would be awesome

Wet_Boots
11-13-2011, 09:09 PM
Keep using the mainline as a pressure tank and you will find out...........It's been over thirty years of pressurizing mainlines, so reality has to take precedence over proclamations not backed up by real-world experience. :rolleyes:

Mdirrigation
11-13-2011, 09:47 PM
It's been over thirty years of pressurizing mainlines, so reality has to take precedence over proclamations not backed up by real-world experience. :rolleyes:


I dont believe you have been doing irrigation for 30 years , where I have , 1981 to be exact . So my 30 years of real world experience trumps your proclamations , that are not backed up .

But I do have 2 questions for you ? Do you realy have time to do irrigation ?
I noticed that you have made 31,215 posts in 6 and a half years , well at 3 minutes a post, estimated ( reading , then posting) that breaks down to 1560 hours , based on a 40 hour work week that would be 39.01 weeks or 65 complete 24 hour days posting on this site . Thats a LOT of time . While you are posting opinions , I am posting invoices and making deposits .
Do you write the paychecks , or do you recieve a paycheck for doing irrigation?

I most likely started installing and servicing irrigation about when you were still using training wheels .

mitchgo
11-13-2011, 09:57 PM
my guess is that boots is like 87 years old

Wet_Boots
11-14-2011, 07:28 AM
I dont believe you have been doing irrigation for 30 years , where I have , 1981 to be exact . So my 30 years of real world experience trumps your proclamations , that are not backed up ..............Reality cares not a whit about anyone's opinions. It simply is. Decades of air-pressurizing mainlines without any damage, is simply an unremarkable happenstance to anyone who has been there and done that.

That someone who has never had experience with the practice is calling it damaging is also unremarkable, given the way that unfounded opinions are often trotted out as "facts" on these threads.

AI Inc
11-14-2011, 08:08 AM
Whats the differance between 60 psi of air for 1/2 hr vs 60 psi of water for the season?

Kiril
11-14-2011, 10:14 AM
Whats the differance between 60 psi of air for 1/2 hr vs 60 psi of water for the season?

What is the difference between air and water?

AI Inc
11-14-2011, 10:15 AM
water also has hydrogen in it.

DanaMac
11-14-2011, 10:40 AM
water also has hydrogen in it.

The best water has some scotch and ice in it. :)

AI Inc
11-14-2011, 03:04 PM
I never aquired a taste for that. Moe of a crown and ginger guy, Or maybe crown and maryann , she looked better.

Mike Leary
11-14-2011, 05:57 PM
Water bought us a motor home, air helped in the winter.

irritation
11-14-2011, 08:07 PM
What is the difference between air and water?

You should know but you don't get to. There is a huge difference.

Mdirrigation
11-14-2011, 08:43 PM
Reality cares not a whit about anyone's opinions. It simply is. Decades of air-pressurizing mainlines without any damage, is simply an unremarkable happenstance to anyone who has been there and done that.

That someone who has never had experience with the practice is calling it damaging is also unremarkable, given the way that unfounded opinions are often trotted out as "facts" on these threads.


Reality is that you havent been doing iirigation long enough to make the blanket statement that pressurizing mainlines is been done for "decades"
Oh I have had experience with the practice , damaging is spoken from experience, The "facts" of the damage show up every spring. Doing something incorrectly for a period of time does not make it right. there are 2 outfits I know that use your method of charging a mainline just to do damage that must be repaired in the spring. As one of their employees called it "hammering the system ".

You didnt answer the question. Are you the owner of an irrigation company
of just an employee ? Is it your money and reputation on the line . Your equipment , your trucks , your responsibility ?



And by the way your method wouldnt work too well on 60% of the systems in my neck of the woods , they have master valves . Dinky compressors dont do the job..

Kiril
11-14-2011, 09:37 PM
You should know but you don't get to. There is a huge difference.

I do know .... that was a question for AI so he could look up the difference and understand why you don't compare 60 PSI of water to 60 PSI of air.

AI Inc
11-15-2011, 06:17 AM
I couldnt be bothered as I use a real compressor

AI Inc
11-15-2011, 06:19 AM
You didnt answer the question. Are you the owner of an irrigation company
of just an employee ? Is it your money and reputation on the line . Your equipment , your trucks , your responsibility ?



..

you will never get an answer to that. Sometimes a non answer is the answer.

Wet_Boots
11-15-2011, 09:16 AM
As if anyone's business experience has anything to do with the fact that you cannot damage a sprinkler system by pressurizing its mainline with 60 psi air.

Mike Leary
11-15-2011, 09:46 AM
I couldnt be bothered as I use a real compressor

Double-ditto.:clapping:

Wet_Boots
11-15-2011, 10:17 AM
I still appreciate having the observation of a single zone blowing clear, as it gives some guide to how it is laid out (like whether there are pipes going under a driveway)

AI Inc
11-15-2011, 10:34 AM
Bottom line is if your main line integrity is compromised holding 60 psi of air, you need to reevaluate your methods of construction.

Wet_Boots
11-15-2011, 12:18 PM
Here's a crappy photo of a 1/2 gpm nozzle at the end of the line on a mist-head zone, intermittently spraying water and air. Just for grins, (and because said nozzle was on the other side of a locked high gate) I wait for it to stop spraying water, and close the zone, and give it another shot of 60 psi air. No more water showed (or more properly, no more water heard, being that it was getting dark)

http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/4666/5708hnozzle.jpg

Mike Leary
11-15-2011, 01:45 PM
If the heads "spit" and pop up and down, it only means you gotta c.s. compressor that cannot move either water or air as the main becomes discharged. CFM rules! :clapping:

Wet_Boots
11-15-2011, 01:56 PM
I would submit that the tiniest heads on the end of a long line that feeds maybe only one undersized head, are a pain no matter what the compressor. If I had access to that backyard, I discreetly step on that head, or otherwise get water to spray from around the wiper seal, and gain a few more minutes of work time.

Mdirrigation
11-15-2011, 03:56 PM
As if anyone's business experience has anything to do with the fact that you cannot damage a sprinkler system by pressurizing its mainline with 60 psi air.

So you are an employee , using a dinky wheelbarrow compressor attempting to blow out a sprinkler system. And when you have a system with a master valve you have no main to pressurize . And 60 psi on a dinky compressor produces insufficent CFM to blow out a sprinkler system . There is no reason to pressurize a mainline , you need the right tool for the job , CFM blows out the system not the pressure

Mdirrigation
11-15-2011, 04:13 PM
Here's a crappy photo of a 1/2 gpm nozzle at the end of the line on a mist-head zone, intermittently spraying water and air. Just for grins, (and because said nozzle was on the other side of a locked high gate) I wait for it to stop spraying water, and close the zone, and give it another shot of 60 psi air. No more water showed (or more properly, no more water heard, being that it was getting dark)

http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/4666/5708hnozzle.jpg

If it is intermittenly spraying water and air there is still water left , it will find its way to the lowest point of the zone and freeze . You cant keep the velocity of the air high enough to overcome the resistance of the water ,and keep the heads poped up , of course no more water is coming out , you dont have enough cfm to move the water .

If the compressor cant keep all the heads on the zone up during the blowout until there is only water vapor on the last head , its too small to do the job.


"Another shot of 60 psi air " for how long does it stay 60 psi? , 30 seconds , all that does is send water down the pipe and since you cant maintain the velicity of the air the water settles back to the low point .

YO BARTENDER , give me another shot of that 60 psi air.

Wet_Boots
11-15-2011, 04:59 PM
Apparently, someone doesn't know that a manually-opened master valve allows the mainline to be employed for air storage :)............And by the way your method wouldn't work too well on 60% of the systems in my neck of the woods , they have master valves...............Try to not drool at the above spray-head photo. It's from a system fed from a hose bib, with zone flows than make it easy pickings for a dinky.

The phenomenon of surface energy seems to show itself when winterizing, as a sprinkler head, once blowing nothing but air, never again shows more than an insignificant mist when the zone is re-blown. The water seems to "hang together" and exits the zone all at one time, rather than for some portion to stay behind while high-speed air moves past it. This is easily demonstrable with the long-duration air surge of a 500+ foot mainline of 60 psi air acting in conjunction with the dinky.

The evidence remains, that with all the heads popped up and blowing air, the water has been removed from the zone.

Now, rather than bluster against the facts of observed reality, you might devise a means to prove beyond a doubt that significant water is being left behind. I can think of a way to test the theory, but you can have the fun of working out the details.

Mike Leary
11-15-2011, 07:50 PM
This thread is heading into the sunset. :dizzy:

Wet_Boots
11-15-2011, 07:53 PM
Naw, we're having fun with it. :) I only wish I still had an old Grainger catalog, so I could see what the pump is actually rated for.

Mdirrigation
11-15-2011, 08:36 PM
Apparently, someone doesn't know that a manually-opened master valve allows the mainline to be employed for air storage :)

If you can find the mastervalve under 4 inches of mulch on a rainy day
Just 1 more step to slow you down
The phenomenon of surface energy seems to show itself when winterizing, as a sprinkler head, once blowing nothing but air, never again shows more than an insignificant mist when the zone is re-blown. The water seems to "hang together" and exits the zone all at one time, rather than for some portion to stay behind while high-speed air moves past it. This is easily demonstrable with the long-duration air surge of a 500+ foot mainline of 60 psi air acting in conjunction with the dinky.

What high speed air? you have no cfm to speak of
. long duration of air surge ? the only way to accomplish that is with constant high cfm and pressure , neither of which a dinky can do

The evidence remains, that with all the heads popped up and blowing air, the water has been removed from the zone.

Now, rather than bluster against the facts of observed reality, you might devise a means to prove beyond a doubt that significant water is being left behind. I can think of a way to test the theory, but you can have the fun of working out the details.


What evidence ? who could believe that anyone in the irrigation business would even use a dinky compressor unless unless it was a temporary blow out to buy time until you could return with a real machine

Kiril
11-15-2011, 08:40 PM
Now, rather than bluster against the facts of observed reality, you might devise a means to prove beyond a doubt that significant water is being left behind. I can think of a way to test the theory, but you can have the fun of working out the details.

Without the math boots you have nothing but conjecture. Further .... if water was not getting pick up by the air stream, then you wouldn't be getting aerosolized water. Countless pictures posted on this site show this aerosolization of the water. Certainly your infamous magic calculator has the appropriate 3 variable formula to lend some tangible credit to your argument?

Wet_Boots
11-15-2011, 08:46 PM
Without the math boots you have nothing but conjecture. Further .... if water was not getting pick up by the air stream, then you wouldn't be getting aerosolized water. Countless pictures posted on this site show this aerosolization of the water. Certainly your infamous magic calculator has the appropriate 3 variable formula to lend some tangible credit to your argument?No one is talking math. I'm talking presenting actual physical evidence. Make it happen. I know how, but I'm letting the dinky-haters show us the way. :)

Mike Leary
11-15-2011, 08:48 PM
This thread is heading into the sunset. :dizzy:

Now that Kiril has chimed in, I'm convinced.

Sprinkus
11-15-2011, 08:55 PM
Someone, with a buncha money and free time, get some clear pipe, set up a zone, and show us visually.

Kiril
11-15-2011, 08:56 PM
No one is talking math. I'm talking presenting actual physical evidence. Make it happen. I know how, but I'm letting the dinky-haters show us the way. :)

It is all about the math boots ..... so we continue on with the conjecture.

Wet_Boots
11-15-2011, 09:00 PM
Someone, with a buncha money and free time, get some clear pipe, set up a zone, and show us visually.give that man a shrubbler

Mdirrigation
11-15-2011, 09:10 PM
No one is talking math. I'm talking presenting actual physical evidence. Make it happen. I know how, but I'm letting the dinky-haters show us the way. :)

ok Boots heres the deal brink your dinky compressor down here to maryland , (need a place to stay I will let you sleep in my driveway)I will let you blow out 3 of my systems. Be sure to bring extra gas . After you are done And sure the system is clear , I will hook up with a real compressor , I will let you stand in front of the last head on the zone we will do a 6 , a 9 , and a 12 zone system . If at the end you are dry , I will buy dinner , If you are soaked , you buy . I will see you at 8am on wed , pm me for dirrections

DEPENDABLE LANDSCAPING
11-15-2011, 09:15 PM
Im getting a headache!
Posted via Mobile Device

Wet_Boots
11-15-2011, 09:19 PM
I don't have to do anything. I don't have to prove anything. The air leaves the heads, and the water is gone. And again. And again. And again. The systems never show damage in the springtime.

Dinky compressors were clearing systems before disco music was invented. They can still get it done, if need be.

The dinky haters out there have been shown a means to present a proof of their claims. Go and get it done, kiddies.

Kiril
11-15-2011, 09:30 PM
The dinky haters out there have been shown a means to present a proof of their claims. Go and get it done, kiddies.

Why drop the money on a clear pipe "system" when you can simply provide the math in support of your claims? Seems to me you have set up a scenario here that will never be tested .... as if that somehow lends support for your argument. Nor would this test system likely be representative of what you would find in the field. Further your assumption that the pipe is always full of water, therefore the only possibility is air pushing out water, is invalid.

Mdirrigation has presented the best "real world" test ... I say it is time for you to take a road trip.

Mike Leary
11-15-2011, 09:55 PM
I say it is time for you to take a road trip.

:::Keeps an eye out in Cactus Hug for a suspicious stranger:::

Wet_Boots
11-15-2011, 10:17 PM
Bunch of dinky-haters are writing checks with their mouths that their brains aren't prepared to cover. I see plenty of trucks with a small compressor bolted to the bed, that gets used for winterizing. I see as many more with tow-behinds. Both of them are getting it done, and all the bloggers on the planet can't stop it from happening.

A bright Texan gave a method of proving claims about winterizing. Any of the blowhards (:)) out there ready to set it up?

Mdirrigation
11-16-2011, 01:08 PM
I don't have to do anything. I don't have to prove anything. The air leaves the heads, and the water is gone. And again. And again. And again. The systems never show damage in the springtime.

Dinky compressors were clearing systems before disco music was invented. They can still get it done, if need be.

The dinky haters out there have been shown a means to present a proof of their claims. Go and get it done, kiddies.

You ACTUALLY use one , I thought you were playing devils advocate.


You probably werent around before disco


Proof that a 5 hp wheelbarrow compressor is insufficent to properly blow out a irrigation system . I have tried it , and followed with blowing the same system with a 125 CFM . They small compressors dont do a complete job .
Plain and simple . You have provided proof that they dont when you said heads were spitting water .


If you think air leaving the heads means the water is gone you need to go back to irrigation 101 .

Maryland is only 4 hours away .

Wet_Boots
11-16-2011, 01:50 PM
I make no secret that I have a compressor bolted to my truck bed. It is capable of winterizing most anything I run into on the residential scene. Speed of production still points to a rental towbehind, but I don't have to pay extra time for having the capability of dealing with stragglers and new accounts. Wheelbarrow unit? Not on your tintype. I'm not powering air tools, I'm winterizing systems, and I use drive ratios you can't buy on new equipment, which is something that a post-disco newbie might not realize. :)

{P.S. I got neckties older than you, junior. :nono:}

As for Maryland, long may she wave, and send up more soft-shells! :p

mitchgo
11-16-2011, 10:30 PM
For my leak detection I have a little compressor that attaches to my car battery to fill my 7 gallon air tank so I can induce air silently.

I'm gonna start using it to winterize systems

AI Inc
11-17-2011, 06:43 AM
Boots has neckties older then fire and the wheel.

Mike Leary
11-17-2011, 05:36 PM
For my leak detection I have a little compressor that attaches to my car battery to fill my 7 gallon air tank so I can induce air silently.

I've located tons of leaks with our 125. I start by introducing a little air (with a charged system) and walk the the walk, looking for air bubbles. If none are found, I re-check the meter with the client, so no household stuff is on and ascertain we do indeed have a irrigation leak. I then give them the option of hiring a very expensive company or me putting the screws to the compressor and blowing the leak section out of the ground. The 125 won every time: no sound like the growling of air and water to find the source. :clapping: