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cpllawncare
10-27-2011, 09:49 PM
I've done several core aeration and overseeding jobs this past season, my question is does using a broadcast spreader count as overseeding, or do I need to be renting a true overseeder?

jequigle
10-27-2011, 11:18 PM
I don't see why you would need to rent a true overseeder. All the golf courses I have worked on in the past use a broadcast spreader..

turfcobob
10-28-2011, 08:03 AM
I would say that if you are getting around 14 holes per sq ft and broadcasting seed into them yu are doing a good job. Too make it even better you could let the cores dray a bit and drag the lawn to break up the cores a bit and drag the seeds into the holes / turf.

cpllawncare
10-28-2011, 10:02 AM
I would say that if you are getting around 14 holes per sq ft and broadcasting seed into them yu are doing a good job. Too make it even better you could let the cores dray a bit and drag the lawn to break up the cores a bit and drag the seeds into the holes / turf.

Thanks, that's exactly how I've been doing it! I'm using a criss cross pattern when I'm aerating so I'm sure I'm getting enough holes. What is the best thing to drag an existing lawn with? I've been using an old set of tires.

DIXIECONTRACTING
10-28-2011, 10:26 AM
A piece of Chain link fence works good.

Smallaxe
10-28-2011, 11:26 AM
Where does seeding grass 2-3" deep appear in seedbed literature? Keep us informed whether those green plugs for the deep holes are still around next July 4th...

cpllawncare
10-28-2011, 08:54 PM
Where does seeding grass 2-3" deep appear in seedbed literature? Keep us informed whether those green plugs for the deep holes are still around next July 4th...

What are you suggesting?

Smallaxe
10-28-2011, 10:40 PM
What are you suggesting?

I'm not suggesting anything... I'm asking a professional question.... i.e. How does planting grass seed in 2-3" holes actually establish turf?

Are you suggesting that the best lawns in America are established by germinating grass seed in 2-3" holes, spaced 1-4" apart?... :)

cpllawncare
10-28-2011, 10:48 PM
I'm not suggesting anything... I'm asking a professional question.... i.e. How does planting grass seed in 2-3" holes actually establish turf?

Are you suggesting that the best lawns in America are established by germinating grass seed in 2-3" holes, spaced 1-4" apart?... :)

Not by any means, I'm not an expert by any means either, just saying. I'm not trying to establish a new lawn I'm just aerating and overseeding, i would imagine that a slit seeder would be best for establishing a new lawn? that's just a guess though.

Smallaxe
10-28-2011, 11:19 PM
Not by any means, I'm not an expert by any means either, just saying. I'm not trying to establish a new lawn I'm just aerating and overseeding, i would imagine that a slit seeder would be best for establishing a new lawn? that's just a guess though.

Consider this... What is the purpose for aerating... why would one sow seed after aerating, other than repairing the damage caused by aerating...

My problem is the idea of turning it into an overseeding strategy without ever aerating enough to [b]level into a seedbed[/]b...

That is what bothers me and it is what I may be suggesting... :)

RigglePLC
10-28-2011, 11:52 PM
What kind of grass CPL? Bermuda? Overseed with rye? Tall fescue?

Evryone what is your experience? What is you opinionTurfco Bob? 14 holes per sqft is enough? Is there an optimum number? Do you want less depth of the holes if you plan to overseed? How deep?

What diameter of tines is best?

Add seed before, or after aeration?

Drag it with fence or tires--which is better? Are Michelin 235 X 16 AWD's suitable? Is it possible to drag it too much?

Smallaxe
10-29-2011, 12:43 AM
I don't see why you would need to rent a true overseeder. All the golf courses I have worked on in the past use a broadcast spreader..

How - and Why - does "broadcasting" work on golf courses???

Remember: we are learning here... :)

cpllawncare
10-30-2011, 02:21 PM
What kind of grass CPL? Bermuda? Overseed with rye? Tall fescue?

Evryone what is your experience? What is you opinionTurfco Bob? 14 holes per sqft is enough? Is there an optimum number? Do you want less depth of the holes if you plan to overseed? How deep?

What diameter of tines is best?

Add seed before, or after aeration?

Drag it with fence or tires--which is better? Are Michelin 235 X 16 AWD's suitable? Is it possible to drag it too much?

I'm overseeding with Tall fescue, everyone that I've overseeded this year has been pleased with the outcome, I guess that's really what counts. I'll continue reading this thread and see what I can take from it. I'm all for learning.

Misterbluesky
11-01-2011, 09:54 PM
Aerating first loosens compacted soil & redeposits it up on the surface. Slice seed or broadcast or both puts seed in contact with that same soil. Amend with lime & fertilizer. Drag with 14" tires (not 16" too big) or chain link fence or hand rake with leaf rake turned upside down to gently mix up ingredients keeping mixture in the top 1-2". Top dressing last is optional but in these parts we have access to cheap mushroom compost soil full of horse sh!t. Does two things at once. Amends nutrient poor soil with needed food that lasts for years and gives an even leveling of an imperfect surface. Has worked for years. Screened topsoil would also give similar results.

Darryl G
11-01-2011, 10:05 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZteDnKtABw

Smallaxe
11-01-2011, 11:08 PM
Aerating first loosens compacted soil & redeposits it up on the surface. Slice seed or broadcast or both puts seed in contact with that same soil...

Slice seeding will have non relationship with the 2-3" holes, nor the plugs that lay atop the soil surface... when the slice seeder goes through it cuts into a level and that level is not influenced by aeration

If you find a slit seeder that will adjust to a plug of dirt on the ground, let us know...

Everything has to do with the elements, finding their own level...

Compaction is relieved when the [/b]holes close up[/b]... and not until the holes close up... that is aeration for compaction relief and compaction relief has zero (0) to do with seeding...

If thatch or compaction is not the issue, there is absolutely no reason to aerate for the purpose of seeding... :)

Slit seeder is called a seeder becuz that is what it does... aerator is called aerator becuz that is what it does... when an aerator becomes a seeder,,, let us know... WHY... :)

Darryl G
11-01-2011, 11:17 PM
The thing is...that slit seeders do well on even ground but if it's not, they contact unevenly and miss some spots which tend to be the same low spots that leaves settle in and kill the grass. Because aerators go deeper they can get those spots. I like to do both aeration and slit seeding when renovating a lawn, but some areas I will just aerate and broadcast. Keep in mind that slit seeders can damage a healthy lawn too.

cpllawncare
11-02-2011, 12:05 AM
Smallaxe, That's what I was thinking, as far as aeration isn't for seeding but to relieve compaction, I just wasn't sure about the extra step of slit seeding for renovations, so I do in fact need to rent a slit seeder when doing full renovations? One more question? seeding and overseeding are two different animals right? The aeration in combination with overseeding is an acceptable practice?

Smallaxe
11-02-2011, 12:18 AM
Smallaxe, That's what I was thinking, as far as aeration isn't for seeding but to relieve compaction, I just wasn't sure about the extra step of slit seeding for renovations, so I do in fact need to rent a slit seeder when doing full renovations? One more question? seeding and overseeding are two different animals right? The aeration in combination with overseeding is an acceptable practice?

IMO - Yes, Yes and No...

And that is what I can't see the logic behind... If you follow Daryl's theory then the low spots that are missed by the slit seeder will provide a 2-3" hole OR a plug of dirt that will eventually break apart and cover the seed???

Not sure which scenario he's looking for but neither will grow viable turf... When you're hanging out on your lawn on the fourth of July, look and see how many of those tufts of grass from the 3" holes are still providing lawn...

BTW, it isa pretty deep hole that a seeder wouldn't scratch the surface of enough fo seed to make soil contact... :)

Darryl G
11-02-2011, 12:30 AM
It's the only way my lawn has ever been seeded and it looks a hell of a lot better than it used to, lol.

How deep do you set your slit seeder? Certainly not more than 1/2 inch?

turfcobob
11-03-2011, 11:32 AM
20 some years ago when I was with Ryan we did some testing in Nebraska with overseeding using aeration. The results were excellent. We were even surprised at the germination rate we got in each hole. i.e. the new plants were protected, they had excellent seed / soil contact and grew out of the holes in a matter of days after germination. At the time we had daily photos but they are gone somewhere.

Fact is it works and works well. Now with that said: You have to have lots of holes 14 plus per sq ft for plant spacing. Also it is good to drag after aeration a spreading of the seeds to help drag them into the holes.

This procedure was not for new lawn establishment but for improving existing lawns and trasitioning lawns from say bluegrass to fescue over a serveral year period.

cpllawncare
11-03-2011, 01:40 PM
Thanks guys, this has been a valuable learning session.

RigglePLC
11-03-2011, 01:53 PM
So are you trying to get the seed into the holes? On top of the cores? Under the cores? Mixed with the broken soil of the cores?

In my experiment from a few weeks ago--seeding just before core aeration yielded far better seed germiantion. I will try to get photos.

I did not attempt to simluate dragging over the cores/seed mixture.

Which method has the least amount of time and labor involved? Is more seed cheaper than labor? Double aerate better than one aerate plus drag?

Is there any way to tell how much (in percent) of the new seed took hold?

Does it matter what kind of seed was used? Rye? TTTF? Blue? Fine fescue? An Rye?

Is aeration an easy way to do a complete renovation if you used Roundup a week before aeration and seeding? Better than slit-seeding?

americanlawn
11-03-2011, 07:50 PM
Thank you sir. This is exactly what we plan to do for our front yard in mid November. The house was built in the early 50's, so I figure we have Park or Marion KBG. Grass looks good in the spring, but easily goes dormant most summers no matter how high I mow. (turfcobob, you know the lawn -- it's where we tested the T3000 back in '07)

Here's the grass seed we'll be using to switch our KBG lawn into a turf-type tall fescue lawn:

Falcon IV 33.75%
Five Point Tall Fescue 32.85%
Six Point Tall Fescue 32.82%
(the rest is weed seeds derived form cannibus sativa) :laugh: (just kidding)

Yesterday we received the heaviest rain since June (0.85 inches). We plan to resume aerations tomorrow. Nuther rain chance coming next Tuesday. Finally we will be able to give the XT5 a work out. This whole idea came about cuz of my Z-Spray buddies in the transition zone. (thank you) :waving:


20 some years ago when I was with Ryan we did some testing in Nebraska with overseeding using aeration. The results were excellent. We were even surprised at the germination rate we got in each hole. i.e. the new plants were protected, they had excellent seed / soil contact and grew out of the holes in a matter of days after germination. At the time we had daily photos but they are gone somewhere.

Fact is it works and works well. Now with that said: You have to have lots of holes 14 plus per sq ft for plant spacing. Also it is good to drag after aeration a spreading of the seeds to help drag them into the holes.

This procedure was not for new lawn establishment but for improving existing lawns and trasitioning lawns from say bluegrass to fescue over a serveral year period.

Smallaxe
11-03-2011, 10:35 PM
20 some years ago when I was with Ryan we did some testing in Nebraska with overseeding using aeration. The results were excellent. We were even surprised at the germination rate we got in each hole. i.e. the new plants were protected, they had excellent seed / soil contact and grew out of the holes in a matter of days after germination. ... .

The fact of seed germination in these holes is NOT the issue... What I'm curius about is what happens to the seedlings by next Summer when the holes close up with the 'crowns' of th grass 2-3" underground...

Let's keep oranges to oranges, and quit BS'ing with Apples... :)

Darryl G
11-03-2011, 10:42 PM
In my experience the grass that germinates in on the edges of the holes and where the soil from the plugs falls. So that's your problem, you're envisioning grass growing in the depths of the holes? Look, why don't you try aerating and overseeding and see for yourself that it works?

Smallaxe
11-03-2011, 10:51 PM
In my experience the grass that germinates in on the edges of the holes and where the soil from the plugs falls. So that's your problem, you're envisioning grass growing in the depths of the holes? Look, why don't you try aerating and overseeding and see for yourself that it works?

I've seen the edge growth too... check it out over the fourth of July... pictorial histories are usually good... :)

Darryl G
11-03-2011, 11:58 PM
I've seen the edge growth too... check it out over the fourth of July... pictorial histories are usually good... :)

Yeah, and slit-seeded grass doesn't burn out and die? lol

Smallaxe
11-04-2011, 07:05 AM
What DOES happen to the 'ring of seedling' at the edge of an open hole? Does the hole close up? Does the hole fill in?

Properly planted and cared for seedlings, burn out and die...!!??!

well , no they shouldn't, especially with irrigation...

i'm not talking about extreme conditions, i'm refering to sensible planting... :)

Darryl G
11-04-2011, 09:27 AM
It grows! I'm gonna say this one more time........I think areration followed by broadcast overseeding is a viable method of maintaining and thickening lawns. I have done it with good results. In fact I think it's better for the lawn than slit seeding it if the lawn is in decent shape...it doesn't make sense to me to disturb a healthy lawn to that degree, essentially trading new turf for old turf, unless you're trying to transition to a different turf variety. My results have been with cool season grass mixes..... KBG, and the various fescues (TTTF, Chewings, Hard, Creeping Red).

Now if we're talking about bare spots and really thin areas, aeration followed by broadcast overseeding may not give the plant density you need unless you aerate the crap out of it. You get that baby doll hair look that may never fill in, depending on what grass varieties you're using...the same kind of thing you get if you do single pass slit seeding...grass that is kinda there but never really fills in to be a healthy lush lawn.

cpllawncare
11-04-2011, 10:00 AM
^ Darryl,
I take it that if you have that extremely thin turf, and you aerate and overseed and you end up with the baby hair look you can just continue to overseed to fill in over time?

Darryl G
11-04-2011, 10:15 AM
Yes you can.

americanlawn
11-23-2011, 10:27 PM
We aerated & overseeded my front lawn today. About 8000 s/f.

Yesterday I mowed it down to about 1 1/2 inches. Had to rake lots of excess grass clippings.

Spread 100 lbs of improved turf-type tall fescue seed on existing Kentucky bluegrass.

Then went over the lawn six times at different directions with 2 Ryan 48" (36" effective) pull-behinds and as well as a TURFCO XT5. Average distance between plugs was about 1 inch. (We aerated the heck out of it). Our best aerators = Ryan pull-behinds and XT5 walk behind.

Average plug depth was about 1 1/2 inches. Loam soil. I will not water whatsoever, as I will let nature take it's course. We did not bother to drag in the seed cuz the lawn was totally full of moist plugs.

We'll see how it turns out spring 2012.

I would like to thank lawnsite.com and it's members for the tips they shared.