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View Full Version : Advertising angle...”NO HEAVY SIT DOWN ZTR’S OR LAWN TRACTORS that tear and rut .....


Exact Rototilling
10-29-2011, 02:17 PM
Ok before I get flamed here:

Many of my customers have flat out told me they DON’T like them on their lawns. They have tolerated them in the past....but don’t like them.

My BOP mowers have one of the lightest foot prints in the industry for their deck size. 32, 36 & 44. Less impact on soggy turf than even a 21” mower.

And I might add that the quality of cut with my Quickie 32 running the highest lift blades when bagging [OREGON ® 99-127’s] delivers a outstanding cut that is better than any 21” mower...yes even better than my yBravo 25. I constantly get compliments on the cut quality running this combo...often from people you think could care less.


So......my question is how many of you have attempted this marketing angle....? I’m thinking some will answer, “you will attract nothing but PITA customers with that marketing angle” or “you can’t make ANY $ running WB mowers.

There was a thread awhile back about “who uses only WB’s and some of the same reason were given. Many of the OTHER big name WB out there are heavier than the BOP mowers that I run.

I will also add I have zero interest in chasing account where other mowers are more efficient on. I would call it competitive advantage and not limiting myself for future growth.

Your thoughts and input....?

:waving:

HenryB
10-29-2011, 02:28 PM
To me it's a BS angle because our ZTR's actually rut less than WB's due to larger tires and more surface area and yes I think it's a PITA magnet who don't have a clue but still are Know it alls. I decide what's best for a lawn I can't have a client tell me what to use and how. Yes there my boss to a degree but there paying me to do a good job. I've fired many people like this and they are often chronic problems that find a kid or desperado to obey them always w/disastrous results.

White Gardens
10-29-2011, 02:44 PM
I use this angle for getting mow clients.

The problem is that the general mow and go client doesn't care. The only people who do care are the ones who want the best looking lawn/garden on the block.

Though I don't advertise that angle, it still gets me a random mowing job each year that includes full ground maintenance.

The mower I use is a ride-on, Simplicity 34" Coronet. Extremely light, no rutting, and the bagger system works just as good or better than any Walker I've demoed in the past.

I do charge more for my type of mowing, but that price goes down if I'm doing full grounds maintenance to where I can make more than enough money and the mowing I can keep within the market ballpark.

...

Patriot Services
10-29-2011, 03:17 PM
When a customer starts off by dictating what equipment I use I will politely pass. In the past I tried to accommodate these types but they never want to pay the premium required for taking up more of my time. Too many people try to break down the price into an hourly figure and then feel cheated when you are done in 15 mins. Proper operation and cultural practices eliminate the so-called tearing and rutting issues.:usflag:

Exact Rototilling
10-29-2011, 03:22 PM
I belive a gravely 34 ZTR will rut more than a BOP Quickie 32.

I also know a C model Walker with narrow tire that are needed to run the 36" deck will rut more than my Quickie 32

No need to mention the 32" Wright stander rut fest.

Part.of what I'm getting at is the smaller lawns can.be more profitable than bigger lawns requiring bigger mowers, trailers and.trucks.

Less capital investment and higher profits.....
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davidcalhoun
10-29-2011, 08:40 PM
Patriot Services is right on the mark.

sehitchman
10-29-2011, 08:47 PM
It might get you some interest, but don't count on it making a real difference. I cut two yards in a nice upscale neighborhood. Small frontage lots with narrow side yards but big back yards. Everyone has lots of elevation. I cut with my 36 to avoid scalping and getting in the neighbors yard when doing the narrow side yards. My two yards look the nicest in the hood. Several residents have asked me to cut for them, same reason, big mowers rut and scalp. My price is $50 and the guys who do most of the others charge $25. So out of about 150 homes, only two will pay a premium to have a nicer cut and I've got both of them.

Landscape Poet
10-29-2011, 09:25 PM
when a customer starts off by dictating what equipment i use i will politely pass. In the past i tried to accommodate these types but they never want to pay the premium required for taking up more of my time. Too many people try to break down the price into an hourly figure and then feel cheated when you are done in 15 mins. Proper operation and cultural practices eliminate the so-called tearing and rutting issues.:usflag:

amen!!!!:):):)

Florida Gardener
10-29-2011, 09:39 PM
It's a double sided coin. I see companies here that use huge 60" Dixies on yards that need a 21". I'm sorry but that leaves a crap result. I think it's a good marketing tool IF the customer understands it takes longer to use a smaller machine and are willing to pay EXTRA for this. If they want you to use a 21" on a property where a 36" is just fine but don't want to pay for this, see ya later. But if they are willing to pay extra, I have no problem with that. I agree with what someone said about less capital investment. I would rather have a property with more trimming or zoysia or hybrid bermuda where I can use a 21" just fine or my Tru-cut vs. bigger machines that you need more $$ to maintain and eventually replace.

hackitdown
10-29-2011, 09:44 PM
You won't know until you try by running the ads. As long as you get your $$ rate, you can make your money...maybe more.

StihlMechanic
10-29-2011, 09:47 PM
If the majority of a clientele in any given market demanded this, I would have to accommodate. Lucky for me, no one in my market could care less. At my larger properties I am usually asked if I have a large enough machine to handle their lawn, as they have hired hacks with smaller if not 21 inch mowers in the past. One customer hired a guy with a 21 inch to mow their heavily treed acre lawn. It took him all day and by night fall he left it unfinished. But short of that no one cares here.

EMWEB
10-29-2011, 09:48 PM
If you want walk behind results and would still like to ride, just use a SNAPPER 28" Rear Engine Rider. Don't laugh, I sold my like new Snapper to my next door neighbor. I then bought a 52" SCAG Turf Tiger . . . Mower was too big . . . Sold it and got a 48" SCAG Tiger Cat. Guess what, I love my SCAG, fun to ride, but my yard still does not look as good as his or mine used to look when I was using the SNAPPER . . . Why, my yard is uneven and has elevations . . . Now for the positive, it still takes him over a hour to mow his yard, while I'm now down to 19 minutes . . .

This is just my experience and observation . . .

Steve

EMWEB
10-29-2011, 09:59 PM
I think you will find very few people will who are willing to pay for the extra time . . . although if you use walk behinds anyway, you really can't lose . . .

If you decide to do this, really push the benefits you offer with your service and your equipment in your ad . . . let them arrive at the conclusion that Zero Turns are heavy and will eventually damage their yards . . . Having sold industrial products for many years, I have learned the hard way . . . Always state the features and benefits of your product or service well enough & confident enough that your potential customer will automatically make the connection in THEIR mind that you offer the superior product or service . . .

If you want walk behind results and would still like to ride, just use a SNAPPER 28" Rear Engine Rider. Don't laugh, I sold my like new Snapper to my next door neighbor. I then bought a 52" SCAG Turf Tiger . . . Mower was too big . . . Sold it and got a 48" SCAG Tiger Cat. Guess what, I love my SCAG, fun to ride, but my yard still does not look as good as his or mine used to look when I was using the SNAPPER . . . Why, my yard is uneven and has elevations . . . Now for the positive, it still takes him over a hour to mow his yard, while I'm now down to 19 minutes . . .

This is just my experience and observation . . .

Steve

P.Services
10-29-2011, 10:43 PM
better yet why dont you do it and report back the results, you have alot to learn.

Exact Rototilling
10-29-2011, 11:05 PM
better yet why dont you do it and report back the results, you have alot to learn.

Yeah you're right I have a lot two learn yet just like to rest of the humble people.

I ran a newspaper add along these lines and zero response. That was a few years back. I think this concept is better listed as one.of.the reason why to go.with.my.service on a door hanger or flyer. Not a major heading.


Frankly I have not advertised in the paper this last year except for one aeration ad in the spring. Landed me a single $220 aeration but still newspaper ads have landed me a few good customers.

Anyhow I doubt I will buy a walker mower anytime soon so I'm going to use this angle to.some.degree. :waving:
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Lawn Pawn
10-29-2011, 11:31 PM
.
I will also add I have zero interest in chasing account where other mowers are more efficient on. I would call it competitive advantage and not limiting myself for future growth.

You and I both.... If I cannot be efficient and do a good job, I do not take/want the account.

Do not care what others do... but I try to and watch and learn from them. I never cease to be amazed at the terrible service and lawn butchery clients find acceptable!

It is very much about marketing and selling yourself!!

And if you actually do decent work... the money should follow.

DA Quality Lawn & YS
10-30-2011, 12:34 AM
I like your thinking Exact. You could also add in the 'I'm not so lazy as to take a 60" Z on your postage stamp lawn' angle. You care more about doing a good job for them rather than just wanting to get on the lawn, peel out in a Z, and drive away.

Bad thing is, I am not sure too many customers will care enough about this to make it pay off for you.

jaybow
10-30-2011, 01:07 AM
The Quick 32 and 36 mower have a great cut in normal conditions, however in wet conditions and early spring growth it will slow you down unbelievably. They also don't have the deck size/depth to be efficient in suck up leaves either. The light footprint and compact size is nice, but most landscapers need an early start in the morning while there is still dew on the lawn. I just purchased a 32" Exmark Metro, and the deck is night and day better. It has not clogged period, and I had it in heavy leaves and rain in its first week of use. You just can't beat those Exmark decks. 0no more Holding the front of the mower up for me to unclogg a completely gunked up deck. I spent to many mornings and days looking out the window to see if its dry enough to leave yet. So overall you are better of with the bigger Deeper cutting decks. Rutting is very minimal on a belt drive machine.
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fatboynormmie
10-30-2011, 01:57 AM
The Quick 32 and 36 mower have a great cut in normal conditions, however in wet conditions and early spring growth it will slow you down unbelievably. They also don't have the deck size/depth to be efficient in suck up leaves either. The light footprint and compact size is nice, but most landscapers need an early start in the morning while there is still dew on the lawn. I just purchased a 32" Exmark Metro, and the deck is night and day better. It has not clogged period, and I had it in heavy leaves and rain in its first week of use. You just can't beat those Exmark decks. 0no more Holding the front of the mower up for me to unclogg a completely gunked up deck. I spent to many mornings and days looking out the window to see if its dry enough to leave yet. So overall you are better of with the bigger Deeper cutting decks. Rutting is very minimal on a belt drive machine.
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Don't know if you own a 32"bop mower but I do and with the high lift Oregon 99-127 blades it is a wet grass cutting machine with minimal grass build up .I owned a 32" exmark metro (sold last year) and still own a 36"metro so I know the machines and the differences between them(i hate belt drives)BTW the cut quality was good on both metro's. Any other blade on my bop mower leaves a good cut but there is a clog fest in wet conditions.The 99-127 blades absolutely rock and are the only blade for me.Don't believe me ask Exact rototilling he has a thread about them.Been using my 32" machine exclusively due to large amounts of rainfall for the past 2 months and couldn't put my Z's on properties due to sinking them and tearing up turf.The ground is super saturated here.It may take a little longer to cut but at least I can and still make money.I went with the bop 32"dually because I needed a small gate hydro mower and they were the only manufacture that makes a machine that's not pistol grip.Would have bought a 32" Exmark viking with ecs if they made one.So if you own a 32" bop mower try to get a hold of Dennis from Oregon and get a set of high lift 99-127's .If you have a 36" your SOL as they haven't started making the 99-127 blades for them yet.

jaybow
10-30-2011, 02:44 AM
I have a quick 36 samarai and I know the deck very well. Its shallow, compact, and with the tunnel design I don't care what blade you use you will not compete with an Exmark or other similar commercial deck design. There just isn't room to push out the volume, especially wet stuff. The BOP has its benefits, but its a lose situation for a serious landscaper who has to work in all different types of conditions.
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jaybow
10-30-2011, 02:48 AM
The wright velke hydro 32" is probably the way to go. That's what I wanted, but the cost and no dealer near me, and wanting to carry one bagger on my trailer to fit my mowers is good also.
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fatboynormmie
10-30-2011, 04:14 AM
The wright velke hydro 32" is probably the way to go. That's what I wanted, but the cost and no dealer near me, and wanting to carry one bagger on my trailer to fit my mowers is good also.
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I see Wright now offers the quad levers.Back when I bought my Dually Wright only offered the pistol .I almost sold the dually this spring because of the tunnel deck flaw and packing of wet grass until I got the 99-127 blades.Wet grass is NOT a problem anymore.Oregon might end up making the 99-127 for the 36-44"mowers .But you really don't know how a blade performs until you try it in the real world in real conditions.

Kelly's Landscaping
10-30-2011, 08:48 AM
My lightest ztr ruts significantly worse then my heaviest ztr. The extra 600 pounds is made up for by 3 inch wider rear tires and perhaps my expert hand driving it. I think id pass on the advertizing idea because someday you may want to move up to the modern world and not look like a liar. Also customer's tend to be full of S H I t and often praise inferior cuts because they took longer and felt they kept you from getting rich there by making them happy. When we had a 48 inch metro the thing cut like crap you couldn't adjust the heights and the deck couldn't give the clean look of the 60 inch lazer. Instead you got deep tire marks from its skinny tires and the cut was most notable for the grass it didn't cut and stood back up even after triple cutting it. But we would hear how much better it was and how wonderful it was we were willing to work for nothing so don't put to much stock into the better cut complements.

jsslawncare
10-30-2011, 09:12 AM
I like the part about no lawn tractors. I hate seeing someone with lawn tractors cutting grass. I'm not talking about homeowners.

j-ville native
10-30-2011, 09:33 AM
It could help gain you some customers but those customers may end up to be picky customers. This advertising angle could also make you appear to be a newbie that uses push mower because he doesn't have the money for a ztr and trailer yet

jaybow
10-30-2011, 10:16 AM
You certainly wouldn't be the first with this sales pitch either, I've seen a few times in my area. I don't think its ever panned out for anyone, but give it a try. But even with the ones you pick up you will not be efficient enough to make the big noney, and that's what it all boils down to, making money.
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shepoutside
10-30-2011, 11:10 AM
This angle has worked out well for us. My area is now a postage stamp sized lots, for people who work out of town, and don't have time for the outdoors. Depends on your area, and your market. I still have the walker for a few larger places, but my WB's-33's are my bread & butter. Even condos have such small grass areas now, I'm getting calls to request WB only.

Exact Rototilling
10-30-2011, 12:37 PM
JayBow,

Are you running the single notch ultra lifts on your 36? They do help with the grass build up issue and to some degree with damp grass. But the difference between the Q36 with BOP's ultra blades and the Q32 running the SUPER lift 99-127's is night and day.

With the current blades on the market I have to admit the 32 and 44 BOP mowers leave a nicer cut than the Q36. It is a subtle difference but I can tell. I do get compliments on the Q36 cut but not like I do when I run the Q32 with the SUPER LIFT 99-127.

------

Like I said before there is risk of attracting PITA customers with the NO HEAVY RIDING MOWERS and QUILITY OF CUT angle but frankly I'm very picky myself on how I leave a property. Several of my accounts are next to big name competitors and there is noticeable jump up in attention to detail, edging, & cut quality.

As for looking like a 3 card Monty smuck down the road if I was to buy a ZTR or a Walker mower I'll worry and fret about it then ....if it happens. Every Joe six pack LCO here runs Walkers already. One of my accounts is next to a property cut with a Walker. Even when I mulch with the Q32 or Q44 ....the cut is head and shoulders better looking compared to the Walker. IMO the cut quality with my current mowers and blade sharpening drills yields a considerable jump up in cut quality.
The bagging drill with BOP mowers is the weak back breaking link in my current business model. :hammerhead: Bagging in the Spring is pretty much required.

For now I'd rather just cherry pick my accounts and stick with my current mowers....where they are most $ efficient. What I have learned is there is more $ in the smaller accounts where my current mowers shine than trying to chase the accounts where the competition is running bigger mowers.

IXINRGIXI
11-02-2011, 02:47 PM
When a customer starts off by dictating what equipment I use I will politely pass. In the past I tried to accommodate these types but they never want to pay the premium required for taking up more of my time. Too many people try to break down the price into an hourly figure and then feel cheated when you are done in 15 mins. Proper operation and cultural practices eliminate the so-called tearing and rutting issues.:usflag:

like he said i pass ... even hought the customer is right to a certain point im not going to add time to my day and plus i never get ruths in my yard because i run a least 3 different directions

4 seasons lawn&land
11-02-2011, 03:17 PM
I think if you cater to those types of people, they will love you for a while... but they will turn on you sooner than later. My 02


I will say, you can buy 72 inch walk behinds so you may not be wasting time with that method...

Exact Rototilling
11-09-2011, 12:28 AM
I think if you cater to those types of people, they will love you for a while... but they will turn on you sooner than later. My 02
I will say, you can buy 72 inch walk behinds so you may not be wasting time with that method...

Ultimately any client can turn on you. It’s just the nature of the business.

One of my most loyal customers [like family] went price shopping on me this last spring. Another big long time Co bid it out at $5 less than what I mowed it at. Reverse mortgage etc. Neighbor mows it for free at least that is the story. Quality is not even close to what I was doing but you can’t beat the price.

I have price increases in store for roughly 40% of my current clients. If they don’t want to pay the increase I don’t want them as customers. I will be aggressively marketing this next year for the lawns I want to mow and skip the rest. Hit the other places with aeration only marketing since I’ll already be there.

justanotherlawnguy
11-09-2011, 03:01 AM
Another bop guy with z envy!!!

I knew this would be the case before I even clicked the thread!!!
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ralph02813
11-09-2011, 07:51 AM
I used almost that line for 2 years, it works well - why 10% machine 90% operator. Many folks on a zero turn think they are on pavement not lawn, almost all guysusing a jd tractor think they are driving a train and follow the tracks around the yard each time. Any lawn cutting device that can do over 3 miles and hour and weights over 600 pounds should do it only on straight hard dry ground. When you are dogging inbetween trees and bushes or in short dead end place you need to operate at a medium (at best) walking speed. Hot rod drivers on z turns and other riders have gotten me every customer I have. The only thing that makes me smile almost as much is to see a guy get off of one, pick up his weed whacker and scalp the edge of every garden and driveway edge.

BrunoT
11-11-2011, 03:31 AM
I used wb/velkes only for about 5 years. Then someone pointed out how much easier it was to ride a ztr. It never occured to me to market wbs as being an advantage, but I admit on some types of grass and some layouts of lawn you get less wear damage.

I prefer to relax and sit down and save energy when it's 95 degrees and super high humidity though, so I pass on any lawns that can't be done with a compact ZTR or 21" (tiny areas). I can't recall anyone requesting a wb mower, though.

On the primary grass type here, the stuff is so tough a skilled operator won't cause much damage, plus the ability to feather the deck up/down helps give a smoother cut in contoured terrain. Turns are the issue, not total weight, as the bigger tires on a lighter ZTR probably give it a similar or even lower ground pressure than a similar deck size hydro wb. I find my 40" deck wb shows wheel tracks worse than the bigger tired ZTR for some reason.

I make more money in less time with less effort since the switch to ZTR's. I own 2 midsize wb's but they rarely get used except when I want the excercise during cooler months or it's just rained and I need to cut a low lying lawn.

For smallish lawns there is probably a sweet spot in size when a 36" quick mower would do well, (21 too small, 48-60 ztr too big) but that really limits the customer base I'd think.

ralph02813
11-11-2011, 07:16 AM
@brunoT your key words "On the primary grass type here, the stuff is so tough a skilled operator won't cause much damage".

dishboy
11-11-2011, 10:49 AM
To me it's a BS angle because our ZTR's actually rut less than WB's due to larger tires and more surface area and yes I think it's a PITA magnet who don't have a clue but still are Know it alls. I decide what's best for a lawn I can't have a client tell me what to use and how. Yes there my boss to a degree but there paying me to do a good job. I've fired many people like this and they are often chronic problems that find a kid or desperado to obey them always w/disastrous results.

Pretty ignorant statement you have going here!!!!!!!! Comparing a 1200+ machine to a lightweight walk mower is ludicrous! Owning the lightest rider mower on the market with the widest tire option available my 42" Walker B still ruts when the soil is saturated. So I call Bullshitzzz . When the soil is saturated I use my custom built 42" sub 400 pound walkbehind and it does not rut when the rider does. In fact it ruts less than a 21" Honda commercial. Buying a 600 pound walk with skinny tires and then comparing them to a rider is a fail in intellectual reasoning.

Exact indeed has a super marketing plan, low cost lightweight mowers that pay a higher per hour profit than riders in a market that has mare small lawns than medium/large lawns. Can he compete in a market with 15000 sq ft lawns , well no , but he does not need to. My short /light 42" sub 400 pound mulching mower kicks butt in his market!

djagusch
11-11-2011, 11:27 AM
To sum up this thread.

To make this marketing work you need to have the right market(yard size), to charge more for your time, and williness to say no to larger/time consuming yards (unless they pay really well).
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ralph02813
11-11-2011, 07:02 PM
To sum up this thread.

To make this marketing work you need to have the right market(yard size), to charge more for your time, and williness to say no to larger/time consuming yards (unless they pay really well).
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Or just to a abetter job!

Patriot Services
11-11-2011, 07:15 PM
Pretty ignorant statement you have going here!!!!!!!! Comparing a 1200+ machine to a lightweight walk mower is ludicrous! Owning the lightest rider mower on the market with the widest tire option available my 42" Walker B still ruts when the soil is saturated. So I call Bullshitzzz . When the soil is saturated I use my custom built 42" sub 400 pound walkbehind and it does not rut when the rider does. In fact it ruts less than a 21" Honda commercial. Buying a 600 pound walk with skinny tires and then comparing them to a rider is a fail in intellectual reasoning.

Exact indeed has a super marketing plan, low cost lightweight mowers that pay a higher per hour profit than riders in a market that has mare small lawns than medium/large lawns. Can he compete in a market with 15000 sq ft lawns , well no , but he does not need to. My short /light 42" sub 400 pound mulching mower kicks butt in his market!

Can we see a picture of this "custom" sub 400lb 42" mower? I'm curious to see what the big boys can't seem to design. Everything just gets bigger, heavier and more expensive.
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Exact Rototilling
11-11-2011, 08:47 PM
Dishboy….I’m ALSO curious what your custom mower looks like?

My Quick 44 dually tips the scale at just under 450 pounds and is typically set up for mulch mowing 80% of the time with Oregon ® 91-369 blades and the block off plate. This works well for mulching. I have the zero jack knife sulky for it so I get to cheat a bit when I ride.

Early This season I typically ran with my Q44 Dually, Quickie 32 Dually and my yBravo 25. Except for few accounts per day the Quick 44 was often just ballast in the front of my trailer. I write down all my pull up and drive off times and frankly the extra deck width of the 44 over the 32 doesn’t help enough on many accounts to justify it being on the trailer….everyday. Virtually all my back yards except for 3 or 4 have 40” gates. The extra time spent mowing with just the Q32 and just leave the Q44 at home has become a better option.

stickleylawncare
11-11-2011, 09:36 PM
Im thinking about downsizing from a Exmark 60Z to a 52" Turf Tracer next year as the main mower. Just waiting to see what Craigslist turns up over the winter before I guy one brand new.

dishboy
11-12-2011, 10:47 AM
Can we see a picture of this "custom" sub 400lb 42" mower? I'm curious to see what the big boys can't seem to design. Everything just gets bigger, heavier and more expensive.
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Sorry, but I have some design features I am not interested in sharing with the rest of the world.

Exact Rototilling
11-12-2011, 12:13 PM
Sorry, but I have some design features I am not interested in sharing with the rest of the world.

Intriguing.....honestly I don't know of any.other manufacturer that makes commercial WB's that produces mowers as light as the quick series...all well under 500 pounds soaking wet with a full catcher.

I had no idea that the Walker B model was the lightest rider out there and with the widest tires has the lowest impact on the turf.

Prior to buying the quick 32 and 44 last December I was seriously considering a C model Walker with a 36 deck and the skinny tires that rut. Many of my competitors here run walkers and then have a few 21's on the trailer. They are productive on the front lawn then drag out the 21's for the back....:hammerhead:

I belive it would be possible for a current Power equipment manufacturer to produce a light weight rider with a twin bladed timed front deck similar to a walker with a deck out front with the ability to trim left and.right option of grass collection in the back like a navigator or walker HUGE hi flotation tires and the deck would be less than 40" wide. Also the ability to mulch just as well as the best out there and somehow incorporate side discharge with a DC power chute as standard equipment. Imagine being able to.transition from bagging to mulch and.then side discharge all with.a flip of a switch as conditions permit.

Until this mower.is.produced I'll stick with BOP mowers. Now I admit the flaw with running my current mowers is.the side catcher grass clipping drill in.the spring especially. It a back breaker and I did in fact F up my back :cry: this.season with the lifting grass clipping drill.
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