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INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
10-30-2011, 11:29 PM
I have a massive deck covering a basement walkout area that needs to be well lit. As the deck is timber frame, there is no opportunity to install recessed "pot lights". I am looking for a static (straight down), low profile, MR16 based down light fixture.

I know of the Vision3 DL1: http://www.vision3lighting.com/media/djcatalog/DL1%20SUBMITTAL%20-%2001-24-11.pdf

and also the Hevi Lite HL-330: http://www.hevilite.com/catalog/listingview.php?listingID=202

Are there any other similar types of fixtures I am missing out there?
Any other suggestions?

Thanks in advance.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
10-30-2011, 11:31 PM
Oh, one other stipulation, the mount and connection / wire feed must come from above and not the side. This eliminates such fixtures as the Nightscaping Guardian, etc.

J Larson
11-01-2011, 03:13 PM
Hi James,

I have a couple ideas from BK lighting I will email them directly over to you as they are from the custom section of the catalogue and not on the web site.

Jaret

steveparrott
11-01-2011, 04:07 PM
James, just curious, why select straight-down lights? If the deck has a seating area, overhead direct lighting is very unflattering to occupants. Are there on other options such as using deck lights or path lights?

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
11-02-2011, 01:48 AM
Hi James,

I have a couple ideas from BK lighting I will email them directly over to you as they are from the custom section of the catalogue and not on the web site.

Jaret

Thanks Jaret. I will take a look at those tomorrow and get back to you, but I suspect that Custom BK will be out of the budget for this job.

James, just curious, why select straight-down lights? If the deck has a seating area, overhead direct lighting is very unflattering to occupants. Are there on other options such as using deck lights or path lights?

Thanks Steve. The deck is about 2500 sq ft and covers a basement walkout. It was to have been a standard frame using pot lights to light the walkout area beneath (where there is a 14' tall "ceiling" height) but it has just been changed to a timber frame deck, hence the need for a surface mount fixture in place of the pot lights. I will put a diffuse lens in front of the lamp to soften and spread the beams, but the client wants soft pools of light under there. It will look great when finished.

J Larson
11-02-2011, 01:36 PM
Hi James,

I will send you a price on the Artistar fixture, as it is not a custom, but I have been pleasantly surprised by the value of BK on some of there custom stuff.

Jaret

LLC RI
11-03-2011, 12:52 AM
James,

Couple of things - Depending on how much light you want, how about Nightscaping Railiter. Now I think they can A- make it longer than the 3-4 inches and B- make it with an bipin socket so you can use your bipin LED. If that's not enough light, and you want the MR-16 base, how bout an Escort with the wire out the top, take the finial out and drill a hole for a 1/2 EMT fitting, and make your own down rods, and attach to the ceiling with any kind of 1/2 " flange. So in a way, you're making your own custom fixture. I guess if you can do that for much less than one of the ready made fixtures, it might make sense. Good luck...

George

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
11-03-2011, 09:33 PM
James,

Couple of things - Depending on how much light you want, how about Nightscaping Railiter. Now I think they can A- make it longer than the 3-4 inches and B- make it with an bipin socket so you can use your bipin LED. If that's not enough light, and you want the MR-16 base, how bout an Escort with the wire out the top, take the finial out and drill a hole for a 1/2 EMT fitting, and make your own down rods, and attach to the ceiling with any kind of 1/2 " flange. So in a way, you're making your own custom fixture. I guess if you can do that for much less than one of the ready made fixtures, it might make sense. Good luck...

George

Thanks for the idea's George, I appreciate it. This project is new construction, fully custom built home and I would not want the hassels of altering or customizing fixtures for the application when there are at least a few available that will do the job. Always have to watch our CSA/UL listings here. :canadaflag:

Does anyone have a good vendor of Vision3 that you could recommend?

bcg
11-03-2011, 10:06 PM
I don't know if you have Ferguson's in Canada but they're all over in the states. They carry Vision3 and were the most helpful of the distributors we dealt with when we were looking for those fixtures.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
11-04-2011, 08:35 AM
I don't know if you have Ferguson's in Canada but they're all over in the states. They carry Vision3 and were the most helpful of the distributors we dealt with when we were looking for those fixtures.

Thanks for that.. any chance you could send me a email with their website or contact info? I googled the name and only came up with 4.9 million results!

Regards

bcg
11-04-2011, 10:38 AM
I'll have to ask my secretary who she was talking to. I remember she called Vision3 to get someone. In the meantime, here's a link to Vision3's Canadian dealer listing -

http://www.vision3lighting.com/contact-us/reploc/canada

bcg
11-05-2011, 01:05 PM
Here's who we dealt with, he's in Houston but could probably still help.

Paul McWilliams – Ferguson - 713-412-9990

Tomwilllight
12-07-2011, 07:19 PM
James,

I've recently realized that the V3 downlight will leak via the wire-way through the knuckle. During a recent service call in New England, I found a number of downlights with the lens "blown out" by the force of freezing water. In each case, the fixture was mounted under or rotated below 90 degrees on the branch. Water filled the Greenlee T boxes I've used for years and found it's way into the fixture after pooling in the T box.

In the future, I will only use the V3 FL11 with a side-mounted knuckle as a downlight. I think it will allow me to mount the down light on the side of a branch with the knuckle oriented to drain back to the tree. In addition I have stopped using any mounting j-box that attempts to be "water tight." I decided to treat all "sealed" mounts as potential reservoirs.

Tom

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-08-2011, 04:15 AM
Thanks for the info Tom. I was actually considering using the V3 DL1 fixture for this architectural application. It is a straight down light, no knuckle. The client has since decided to postpone the project.

In the future, if you are looking for a completely water proof (IP68 no less) downlight for tree mounted applications, I would encourage you to check out the new Hyperion fixture from Illumicare. http://www.illumicaregroup.com/2011/11/hyperion/ It comes with a 30' long, factory installed / sealed, SJOW 16/2, lead wire which generally eliminates the need to make messy and unsightly connections in the tree. This is a category killer in my opinion.

Tomwilllight
12-08-2011, 11:55 AM
I like using the V3 DL1 for the subtle play of movement in moonlighted shadows.

A "category killer" sounds dangerous... How well do they get along with in-grades?

As for being a first... HK has produced submersible bullets since Jan designed the Chicago Botanical Garden... I think that was 2004.

Tom

Alan B
12-08-2011, 08:03 PM
Wow, James this is weird, in fact it's uncanny. Both your new precision fixtures are like our new generation Top Dog and new Tree light/downlight that we have been working on for a long time and are formally releasing shortly. Although I am disappointed at their similarity, all I can say is I guess great minds think alike. Then again it is not that surprising as the adjustable glare guard makes a lot of sense.

I must give credit where it's due... was first done (as far as I know) by the Big Smoky (Lightcraft) by Eric Sassower and his partner Bruce Dennis. We made changes and updates and did our version with the Top Dog, and now we are doing a second generation (complete redesign)).

I normally don't picture our CAD drawings or show new items until they are in stock for sale, however in this case I have to so you are aware that we did not copy you (nor you us).

Your "category killer" is very nice. I like it. Our focus was to make it impossible for water to enter, give the installer complete glare control with a very large adjustable glare guard, to enable wide 60 degree beam spreads (even with the glare guard extended), be LED ready, and be adjustable in infinite increments in all directions.

Differences i see between the two....to prevent water from leaking down the lead wire (because even pressure fittings can fail) we have it enter from below (water will never go up the wire). Our knuckle is not connected internally so no water can enter the fixture thru the knuckle. Our glare guard can be adjusted in and out like our Top Dog fixture so you can control the amount of glare protection. The glare guard is very long and flared. It is both LED compatible with its heat fins. I don't want to give away all our secrets (and had no intention of showing this) so I will only show the Downlight for now. But I will say our new top Dog looks very similar to your new up light.

I would normally not post our fixture in the same thread as where you posted your fixture, nor compare them. However in this case because they are so similar, we have been working on it for a year, I want to make sure that it was not perceived that we saw yours and produced a similar item.

Good luck with your new line and welcome to the world of fixture manufacturing.

Sincerely,

Alan

Alan B
12-08-2011, 08:15 PM
Generation2 Volt® Top Dog fixtures. I really didn't want to post them until full production inventory was in stock. Oh well.

Tomwilllight
12-09-2011, 05:34 PM
"James this is weird, in fact it's uncanny" ?!?!?!

James, Alan. Do you think we all were born yesterday?

Come on... Tell us where you're importing your product from...

Tom

Alan B
12-09-2011, 05:57 PM
Tom,

It's no surprise VOLT makes its fixtures made overseas just like every other significant landscape lighting manufacturer except Vista (as far as I know). I know nothing about James fixtures (except that he used to lambast chinese made fixtures before he became a manu :rolleyes: dig dig joke joke )... However I personally sketched our fixture design completely from scratch (not a copy or redo of an existing sample or product). Made several generations of changes, CNC one off samples made molds made etc.. I have a close relationship with our factory (in fact was just there 4 weeks ago) and have a dedicated floor of the building. Now it is possible that my factory 're-used my design' but I truly doubt it. The reason is James was discussing his design way back before he was a sponsor so he's been working on his a long time also. Also since I posted, I realized they are not all that similar. I thought James fixture had an adjustable glare guard, a separe piece that moves. he doesn't, his is fixed. I really do think it is a coincidence about our fixtures.

I don't want to make too much of it. I'm proud of our fixtures and James look like very nice quality as well. I called James right after posting-- he's on vacation and we are good. I bet they are both incredible quality and values. VOLT listened to contractors to design ours, and James is a contractor so he knows what needed to be done as well. It's crazy to think the to this point it's been hard to find a tree downlight that was both water proof (always/guaranteed) and had glare protection and enabled full wide BAB beam spreads. I think it's great that contractors and the industry will be getting improvements.

Tomwilllight
12-09-2011, 06:20 PM
Clearly, in a global economy that is fueled by silicon, an idea will travel around the world with the speed of light.

Tom

steveparrott
12-09-2011, 08:33 PM
It's no surprise VOLT makes its fixtures made overseas just like every other significant landscape lighting manufacturer except Vista (as far as I know)...

Don't forget about CAST, while our foundry (that we own) is in Colombia, it's not really overseas - you could walk there if you had the time :laugh:

indylights
12-10-2011, 12:20 PM
It's crazy to think the to this point it's been hard to find a tree downlight that was both water proof (always/guaranteed) and had glare protection and enabled full wide BAB beam spreads. I think it's great that contractors and the industry will be getting improvements.[/QUOTE]


The CAST tree light has done that for years, and is still, IMHO, the best on the market. When they get the LED version in the spring as Steve mentioned in a different thread, it will probably make that gap even wider.

Scott Maloney
Sunflower Landscapes

Alan B
12-10-2011, 01:47 PM
Scott,

I hear you and agree with the first 2 points (leak proof and great glare protection). I'm not sure about enabling full BAB or 60 degree beam spreads.

Again it's my understanding that the Cast tree light is awesome and one of the few that does not leak and has great glare protection. From the one I handled (about a year ago) I thought that the very long glare guard being narrow and long like a cannon, it would give great glare protection however I'm not sure how it would be physically possible to have a 60 degree (or wide beam spread with it). Even though it has a long angle/big opening at the end, it would be physically impossible for it not to be blocking much of the beam spread of the lamp.

Since 20 w 60 degree lamps are the goto lamp for most downlights, to me it makes sense that fixture should ALSO enable a full 60 degrees of beam spread. Again, I agree with you on the first 2 points and that said, up until now I hear that Cast makes one of the (if not the best) tree lights out there. If it can enable a full 60 degree beam spread... even better.

Regarding the VOLT design, the glare guard is flared so it gets wider to lessen any blocking of wide beam spreads while also providing glare protection. That's simple physics. Being adjustable in and out the contractor can control how much glare protection they need and can control how wide the beam spread. Lastly, seals can fail. The Volt design makes it impossible to get water in the fixture because water will not fall up and there are no downward entry points into the inside of the fixture.

indylights
12-10-2011, 04:42 PM
I have used many 60 degree lamps in the many CAST tree lights I have used over the past nine years. Beam spreads have been pretty dead on.

I didn't say a word about the Volt design, so no reason to defend something not under scrutiny. But since you brought it up, I would be careful with the word "impossible". There has to be a wire coming out of the housing somewhere, and as you said, seals can fail.

Scott Maloney
Sunflower Landscapes

Alan B
12-11-2011, 12:03 AM
Scott,
Lastly, seals can fail. The Volt design makes it impossible to get water in the fixture because water will not fall up and there are no downward entry points into the inside of the fixture.

I would be careful with the word "impossible". There has to be a wire coming out of the housing somewhere, and as you said, seals can fail.

Scott Maloney
Sunflower Landscapes

Scott you are right about using the word impossible-- someone could mount the fixture upside down or underwater. I'm not sure if you looked at the Volt CAD drawing earlier in the thread or noticed my reference I underlined above but there are no downward facing entry points into the VOLT fixture so even if the seals fail water cannot enter. The lead wire enters from the opposite direction as it does from most downlights-- the lead wire is going upwards when the fixture is aimed down (the pressure fitting we have is not even needed). Dripping water cannot run up the wire. Even without a pressure fitting (or even silicon), water does not enter the fixture when its tree mounted aiming downwards. Also note the knuckle is not hollow and there is no entry point or hole thru the knuckle and into the fixture.

All other downlights I am aware of are designed with a mechanical device (gaskets, silicon, pressure fitting what have you) to stop water from coming in the knuckle or seeping down the lead wire and into the fixture. They are not needed in the VOLT downlight due to its physical design. Just as an upside down bucket can't get water in it.

Regarding "no reason to defend something not under scrutiny"... not defending, I'm marketing. As a Sponsor here and am here to market and promote my products. I don't post much even though we spend quite a bit with Moose River Media, so when I do, it's smart to plug my products every once in a while.

indylights
12-11-2011, 12:42 AM
water cannot run up the wire. Even without a pressure fitting (or even silicon), water does not enter the fixture when its tree mounted aiming downwards.


There are numerous scientists, meterologists, and electricians who would argue that point. And yes, I did look at your drawings. Hopefully you will put that word on your advertisement. As much as you like lawsuits, that would be interesting.

Scott Maloney
Sunflower Landscapes

Alan B
12-11-2011, 02:10 AM
Scott,

Thank you for your comments. You often comment after I make an appearance and post. It usually gives me the opportunity discuss, point out advantages, promote and market our products.

Have a great Holiday Season.

Cheers,

Alan

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-11-2011, 07:57 AM
"James this is weird, in fact it's uncanny" ?!?!?!

James, Alan. Do you think we all were born yesterday?

Come on... Tell us where you're importing your product from...

Tom

Tom: Both the Ilumicare Hyperion and Aether fixtures are engineered and manufactured in Germany. Not sure if you have had the pleasure of using German products yet, but those who have generally agree that they are superior products in terms of design, engineering, precision, manufacturing, fit and finish.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-11-2011, 08:30 AM
I would like to use this post and space to clear up some common mis conceptions that seem to percolate through the Industry now and then.

I know nothing about James fixtures (except that he used to lambast chinese made fixtures before he became a manu :rolleyes: dig dig joke joke )... James Solecki / INTEGRA Works is not a manufacturer of products, nor an agent, nor a rep. I do work in a consultative role with Illumicare Group, acting as a product development specialist and contractor liaison. Knowing this, there is no such thing as "James' Fixtures". These are Illumicare products; built by, sold by and backed by Illumicare Group Ltc. http://www.illumicaregroup.com/

The reason is James was discussing his design way back before he was a sponsor so he's been working on his a long time also. Yes work has been done for many months on these new fixtures, about 18 months in development, but alas they are not 'my' fixtures, nor am I a sponsor here.

I thought James fixture had an adjustable glare guard, a separe piece that moves. he doesn't, his is fixed. This is not correct. The glare guard on both the Illumicare Hyperion and Aether fixtures is in fact adjustable, allowing for sight line glare control through 360 Degrees of rotation. The precision machining on the shroud to lens assembly is quite impressive and the shrouds attach using a simple knurled thumb screw (no tools to fumble with in the field)

I don't want to make too much of it. I'm proud of our fixtures and James look like very nice quality as well. I called James right after posting-- he's on vacation and we are good. I bet they are both incredible quality and values. VOLT listened to contractors to design ours, and James is a contractor so he knows what needed to be done as well. It's crazy to think the to this point it's been hard to find a tree downlight that was both water proof (always/guaranteed) and had glare protection and enabled full wide BAB beam spreads. I think it's great that contractors and the industry will be getting improvements.

Here I agree whole-heartedly with Alan. It is great to see all of these new, improved fixtures coming to market. The entire industry will benefit from the ability to provide the customer with well designed, rugged, long lasting, professional grade products. I have been asking for, (and offering to help with) the development of water proof fixtures for years but found most manufactures unwilling or unable to help. Not sure why, as water ingress into fixtures is probably the most common source of failure over time.

As a designer & installer, I am thrilled to now have both an IP68 rated bullet (Illumicare Aether) and tree mounted down light (Illumicare Hyperion) to use on my installations. Precision engineering and manufacture make our lives so much easier. No more having to drill weep holes in the shroud of the treelights to protect them from becomming filled with water over time. No more reliance upon rough castings and haphazzard machining of components to keep the elements out, and no more returning to site to find fixtures that have fallen out of aim.

steveparrott
12-11-2011, 04:17 PM
Scott,

I hear you and agree with the first 2 points (leak proof and great glare protection). I'm not sure about enabling full BAB or 60 degree beam spreads.

Again it's my understanding that the Cast tree light is awesome and one of the few that does not leak and has great glare protection. From the one I handled (about a year ago) I thought that the very long glare guard being narrow and long like a cannon, it would give great glare protection however I'm not sure how it would be physically possible to have a 60 degree (or wide beam spread with it). Even though it has a long angle/big opening at the end, it would be physically impossible for it not to be blocking much of the beam spread of the lamp.

Since 20 w 60 degree lamps are the goto lamp for most downlights, to me it makes sense that fixture should ALSO enable a full 60 degrees of beam spread. Again, I agree with you on the first 2 points and that said, up until now I hear that Cast makes one of the (if not the best) tree lights out there. If it can enable a full 60 degree beam spread... even better.

Regarding the VOLT design, the glare guard is flared so it gets wider to lessen any blocking of wide beam spreads while also providing glare protection. That's simple physics. Being adjustable in and out the contractor can control how much glare protection they need and can control how wide the beam spread. Lastly, seals can fail. The Volt design makes it impossible to get water in the fixture because water will not fall up and there are no downward entry points into the inside of the fixture.

It may intuitively make sense to design a tree light shroud that allows the full 60 degree beam to exit the fixture equally on all sides, but here's the thinking behind an extra long shroud.

The first thing to recognize is that beam angle is defined as the angle at which 50% of the maximum beam intensity is projected. For example, if the intensity of a lamp at it's brightest point (usually the center point - 0 degrees) is 100 candelas then you would look for the angle that projects 50 candelas. If that angle is 60 degrees, then you have a 60 degree beam angle.

Of course, in the above example, you still have significant light projecting beyond 60 degrees - it depends on the lamp, optics, and fixture design. It's quite possible you could have significant light up to 70 or 80 degrees. That's OK in most uplighting situations. But if you are downlighting then you need to be extra careful about direct glare and be very conscious about this light that strays outside the chosen beam angle.

Direct glare occurs when a viewer sees projected light at less than about 50 degrees from the horizon. You, of course, try to prevent that by mounting the fixture at a height about equal to the illuminated viewer's distance from the tree trunk (that would be a 45 degree angle). It's difficult enough to get the fixture high enough when you're dealing with the large spread of a 60 degree lamp, but if you're projecting pools of light that go to 70 or 80 degrees, then avoiding direct glare is even more difficult.

Using an extra-long shroud cuts off the beam just short of the 60 degree angle from one side and allows the designer to project the brighter portion of the light closer to the viewer. And, it allows the full 60 (or 70 or 80) degree beam to be projected on all other sides. You might think this makes a lopsided beam, but that's not noticeable since the light is always projected at an angle - usually with the cutoff side at the top of the elongated beam.

Long story, short. An extra-long shroud only cuts off the light at one end of the beam. That cut-off gives the designer more flexibility in positioning the fixture, allowing him to mount the light lower and to more easily prevent direct glare.

emby
12-11-2011, 10:47 PM
Hey Steve,

I have been very happy with the Cast tree light. I have and still use many of them in a large tree application.
I have had some moments when it has been a challange to reduce the glare that is being created from the inside of the shroud.
Is there any way to paint or dull this portion of the shroud at the factory?


Regards,

Ken

steveparrott
12-12-2011, 10:22 AM
Hey Steve,

I have been very happy with the Cast tree light. I have and still use many of them in a large tree application.
I have had some moments when it has been a challange to reduce the glare that is being created from the inside of the shroud.
Is there any way to paint or dull this portion of the shroud at the factory?


Regards,

Ken
Ken, thanks, it's a good idea and we've considered it - quite a bit of extra time and labor involved - not a simple matter to prep the surface, apply paint or stain evenly to the inside of shroud, then be concerned with chipping, flaking, or scratching the surface over the life of the fixture.

If you want to do it yourself, the best way to get a durable layer of flat black oxidation is to apply a solution of ammonia, liver of sulphur, and spreader/sticker. You can find the procedure and sources for the ingredients in this article (http://www.cast-lighting.com/search/1/display-document/49).

emby
12-12-2011, 02:59 PM
Thanks very much Steve. Thats great!!

Ken