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Smallaxe
11-04-2011, 07:50 AM
When I went through University it was made clear, who was buttering the bread of that institution... grants and donations from the chemical companies created a friendly environment as to 'learning' about these chemicals and how they worked... The universities automatically took the 'research' and published it in the textbooks, because those guys were the experts...

So... Who believes that the system set up 40 years ago, guided by the salesmen of the day, is the best thing for lawncare?

4-7 apps/season is definately better for money, and that is NOT the question... Is it best for the lawn??? ... that's the question.

This is just a thread, that hopes to bring to light, what LCO's actually believe... :)

turfcobob
11-04-2011, 01:03 PM
I can tell you from my experience as a manufacturer with over 30 years of working with Universities all over the US. That we never guided the outcome of a study. We only provided the tools for the researchers and students and lived with their findings. I am sure the chemical folks do the same thing. Other wise there would be no integerity in the papers they publish.


When I went through University it was made clear, who was buttering the bread of that institution... grants and donations from the chemical companies created a friendly environment as to 'learning' about these chemicals and how they worked... The universities automatically took the 'research' and published it in the textbooks, because those guys were the experts...

So... Who believes that the system set up 40 years ago, guided by the salesmen of the day, is the best thing for lawncare?

4-7 apps/season is definately better for money, and that is NOT the question... Is it best for the lawn??? ... that's the question.

This is just a thread, that hopes to bring to light, what LCO's actually believe... :)

kennc38
11-04-2011, 03:06 PM
When I went through University it was made clear, who was buttering the bread of that institution... grants and donations from the chemical companies created a friendly environment as to 'learning' about these chemicals and how they worked... The universities automatically took the 'research' and published it in the textbooks, because those guys were the experts...

So... Who believes that the system set up 40 years ago, guided by the salesmen of the day, is the best thing for lawncare?

4-7 apps/season is definately better for money, and that is NOT the question... Is it best for the lawn??? ... that's the question.

This is just a thread, that hopes to bring to light, what LCO's actually believe... :)

By the way you've worded the question, you make it sound like the universtities stopped all their research 40 years ago. I know for a fact that NC State continues to do research on turf care and make all their findings known to the public, not just in textbooks but also on their website. Does private industry contribute money to this research? Absolutely. But to say that private industry decides the outcome of that research is completely ridiculous.
It appears to me that you have a personal "axe" to grind with someone or something and simply use this forum to do so. Either that or you're one of those skeptical types that doubt everything, like whether or not we landed on the moon or that Area 51 is being to conduct alien research. If you want to know what LCO's believe or do as standard practice, why don't you do an internet search of those LCO's websites and find out what they do as standard practice.

Remember, we're learning here.

jonthepain
11-04-2011, 06:12 PM
... Area 51 is being used to conduct alien research.

It IS? OMG!

Seriously though, I took all of my turf management courses at NC State.

It would be laughable if it weren't so insulting to insinuate that any of their professional researchers or their students are "in the pocket of" chemical industry salesmen.

And btw, they treated me with respect and went out of their way to assist me in my organic lawn care studies.

kennc38
11-04-2011, 06:29 PM
It would be laughable if it weren't so insulting to insinuate that any of their professional researchers or their students are "in the pocket of" chemical industry salesmen.

And btw, they treated me with respect and went out of their way to assist me in my organic lawn care studies.

I agree. I have heard nothing but positive things about NC State's agricultural department, as well as their other departments. My son also graduated from there so I know they are serious about research and not filling the pockets of the private sector.

Smallaxe
11-05-2011, 08:00 AM
None of those answered the question... the larger topic of whether research done in the field by fertilizer manufacturers is what was transfered and taught 40 yrs ago is a separate issue...

But as long as we are there, consider this... A recent University research that I agree with and support : http://turfdisease.osu.edu/turf-disease-updates/benefits-late-fall-fertilization ... no "axe" to grind here... :)
But it contradicts the Status Quo in the Squirt&Fert "Programs"

Just like our extention offices in the midwest are all saying "NEW" things about Spring Fert&Squirt applicatins... Not in April, even May, but June... for you first app. to AVOID real thatch and for healthier, more vigorous root growth...
That contradicts the status quo as well...

So the question remains: Who does the "Independant Studies" on fertilizer now and who did the majority of in the field testing 40 years ago and longer?

When I was in university, neither my Horticulture class nor my Botany classes would even cover the topic of lawn turf... He said he would answer specific questions, but evidently didn't believe what he was "Supposed" to teach... kind of like evolution... he wasn't going to teach that as fact either...

So back to my original question: Does the new research and findings change your mind , or do you follow the status quo?... :)

jonthepain
11-05-2011, 11:07 AM
Interesting article, SA

Previous research at Ohio State has shown that root growth of cool-season turfgrass species does indeed occur during the fall after shoot growth has slowed or ceased.

So I guess I should continue to offer fall fert to my clients

In the Virginia study conduced by Powell and his associates (2 &3) on creeping bentgrass, no significant stimulation of winter root production by late-season nitrogen applications was observed. In fact, heavy and/or frequent nitrogen applications during the winter months (December and February) appeared to reduce the amount of roots produced during the winter.

I don't manage bentgrass, and don't fert during the winter - which is fairly short and mild down here, but it still seems silly to me to fert at that time.


Summary
Late-season fertilization lengthens the fall/winter green period and enhances the rate of spring green-up without stimulating excessive shoot growth, thus allowing the turf plant to maintain higher levels of carbohydrates than when spring/summer fertilization is used.

Word.

Not sure how all that contradicts what we were taught by the evil status-quo turf professors, but ok.

Smallaxe
11-06-2011, 08:45 AM
... Not sure how all that contradicts what we were taught by the evil status-quo turf professors, but ok.

It's all about cool season grasses and actual winter scenarios...

"...evil status quo proffessors" Really!
I was talking about what is being done, in the field by PROS and how it contradicts what real research is telling us!

staus quo is not in the University in THIS case... staus quo is the moron dumping fert/chems on frozen turf so it can wash into the lakes with the spring thaw...
the status quo is the stupid lco-pro that dumps the same kr@p on dormant turf in the spring so it can wash into thelakes and streams with the spring rains...

"evil staus quo proffessors"??? do you ever get a clue as to what is being discussed in the written word??? ... :laugh:

RigglePLC
11-06-2011, 10:12 AM
I think spring greenup depends mainly on the soil temperature. Fert will not affect the spring soil temperature.

Secondly, spring greenup depends on the actual cultivar of grass originally planted. Many sod-type elite bluegrasses are notoriously slow to green up in the spring. Read a few of the seed company descriptions and you will note that if a bluegrass greens up earlier than usual in spring they will always mention that fact. Perennial ryegrass usually greens up a week or two earlier than Kentucky bluegrass around here.

http://www.mtviewseeds.com/Temp/DATASHEETS/ArrowheadFinal9.07.pdf

Smallaxe
11-06-2011, 09:56 PM
I think spring greenup depends mainly on the soil temperature. Fert will not affect the spring soil temperature.

Secondly, spring greenup depends on the actual cultivar of grass originally planted. Many sod-type elite bluegrasses are notoriously slow to green up in the spring. Read a few of the seed company descriptions and you will note that if a bluegrass greens up earlier than usual in spring they will always mention that fact. Perennial ryegrass usually greens up a week or two earlier than Kentucky bluegrass around here.

http://www.mtviewseeds.com/Temp/DATASHEETS/ArrowheadFinal9.07.pdf

We're not talking about "GreenUp"... we're talking about botany... talking about turf health... talking about wasting fert...

We're talking about running a business according to "Ol' Wives Tales' - vs. - current research that analyses the effects the effects of raw fert on frozen/dormant turf...

Maybe someone out there actually understands what the deal is... Mock me all you want... This is about fert and timing, nothing to do with seed...

Leo the Landscaper
11-06-2011, 10:38 PM
Smallaxe, Where did you go to college? What degree did you get and when? Just curious.

FYI the USGA funds a lot of turf research.

I did not find anything earth shattering in the link you provided. It seems to support what I was taught and what I still recognize today as best practice.

As far as acceptable practice 50 years ago versus present day, you have to recognize that we are talking about science. What we know to be true is constantly being challenged and as technologies advance so do the abilities to test what we currently believe to be true. For example you have referenced over fertilization, this issue is a hot topic for many reasons. One of which is our ability to measure is increasing exponentially. The measurement of parts per million was not to long ago considered pretty exact. Now we measure in parts per billion and in some cases parts per trillion.

So the fact that research might contradict something that was considered best practice at onetime may not be sinister, but just good science.

jonthepain
11-06-2011, 10:41 PM
sa, mock me all you want for supposedly not understanding the written word, however, your first post states that the university that you attended was taking bribes from the fertilizer companies. thus my post.

not quite sure why you state "do you ever get a clue about what is being discussed in the written word." i cannot recall another post that you have mocked me for posting. I suppose it's possible that i have missed the gist of other threads and posts in the past, but i honestly can't remember any offhand.

I don't even recall us ever disagreeing on anything. I thought that we were on the same side; I guess I was wrong.

I also can't imagine anyone coming out in defense of dumping ferts on frozen ground. We don't get much frozen ground here. I suppose there are some that would dump urea or whatever on it, but i have not met anyone espousing that particular activity.

sorry that i'm not smart enough to have a conversation with you, smallaxe. since that is the case i recommend that you just ignore me from now on.

there's no sense in getting worked up over someone that is beneath you.

Leo the Landscaper
11-12-2011, 07:22 PM
Where has Smallaxe gone?

jonthepain
11-12-2011, 09:12 PM
He's surreptitiously denigrating us over in another thread

americanlawn
11-13-2011, 04:43 AM
Got no prob with anybody's experience. Suggesting that a LS member needs a college degree in order to have common sense........makes no sense to me. Personally, I have 3 degrees, and not one of them qualify me to be smarter than or know any more than anybody else > experience matters.

"Dumping fert on frozen ground". American Farmers have done this for decades. ANF

BTW............American farmers do not call it "dumping". I agree.

Leo the Landscaper
11-13-2011, 12:13 PM
Got no prob with anybody's experience. Suggesting that a LS member needs a college degree in order to have common sense........makes no sense to me. Personally, I have 3 degrees, and not one of them qualify me to be smarter than or know any more than anybody else > experience matters.

"Dumping fert on frozen ground". American Farmers have done this for decades. ANF

BTW............American farmers do not call it "dumping". I agree.

If you are referring to me asking SmallAxe where and what he has a degree in, it is because the last 4 of 5 threads he created have challenged the research and information coming from the main Land-grant Institutions. I did not suggest he need a college degree. I was curious as where he went and what his degree is in because he did reference his time in college and suggested that the research occurring was somehow being steered by the money funding it.

I have never suggested that a LS member need a college degree. I agree experience matters a lot! But "continued education" with experience cannot be matched by education or experience alone.

Unrelated...Sorry about your Hawkeyes this weekend.

Dr.NewEarth
11-13-2011, 01:11 PM
Put your lawn on a vegetarian diet. The microbes will love you for it.

americanlawn
11-14-2011, 08:35 PM
Thanks Leo -- Michigan was the better team. Oh well.

ISU is our land grant university. They are the "Cyclones", yet I'm a HAWKEYE FAN (University of Iowa). ISU does a whole lot of research every year regarding fertilization of turf>>> here's a couple recent findings we found fascinating:

13 lbs of N per season to revitalize shelled out athletic fields.
2/4/6/8/10 lbs of N per K regarding new seed. (8 & 10 lbs per K showed the best results)

We learn new stuff every year from ISU. They often make us think 'outside the box'. We have great respect for our land grant university. They originally helped us put our lawn care program together. We do not donate money to them, even though I know we should. They work on limited budgets. They work very hard. They always have new stuff for us to consider. BTW, ISU came up with the corn gluten meal thing.

ISU also relies on the public, fert & chem companies like Syngenta, BASF, etc, etc, equipment reps like John Deere, TURFCO, etc, etc. It's a win/win situation for all. I will never complain about my tax dollars spent toward ISU as I consider them a partner in our business.