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hoskm01
11-28-2011, 12:37 PM
I got a sneak peak at this in person a couple weeks ago while at Hunter in San Marcos. Cool stuff, I like the concept. Have a project ready to go with this going down for a Tifgreen (dwarf bermuda) court.

Thoughts on SDI and Hunter's approach at root intrusion avoidance without Treflan?

Hunter Eco-Mat (http://headlines.hunterindustries.com/2011/08/introducing-two-new-innovative-products-for-subsurface-drip-irrigation-eco-mat-and-pld-esd-enhanced-subsurface-dripline/)

http://headlines.hunterindustries.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/ecomatrounded.png

http://headlines.hunterindustries.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/PLD-ESDrounded.png

Wet_Boots
11-28-2011, 12:53 PM
That seems like an advance, although it does point out that drip doesn't easily allow some of the more primitive system scheduling (old lady with an Imperial Valet) without root intrusion becoming more of a problem.

Kiril
11-28-2011, 02:43 PM
I got a sneak peak at this in person a couple weeks ago while at Hunter in San Marcos. Cool stuff, I like the concept. Have a project ready to go with this going down for a Tifgreen (dwarf bermuda) court.

Thoughts on SDI and Hunter's approach at root intrusion avoidance without Treflan?

Wrapped tubing, maybe, for better water distribution, but the ecomat .... no way in hell.

A note. I just recently inspected some SDI (~2-3" burial depth) that had been in the ground for close to 20 years in a landscaped bed with shrubs and perennials. There was no visible signs of root intrusion on the outside of the tubing at the emitters, and this was verified after cutting apart the tubing at several emitters to check for root intrusion.

Wet_Boots
11-28-2011, 03:17 PM
I would think regularly-scheduled watering leaves the roots less incentive to grow into emitters. I know from experience how roots can invade pipes and even sprinkler heads.

greenmonster304
11-28-2011, 06:53 PM
I think the guy from "down under", autoflow? Posted something like this awhile back.
Posted via Mobile Device

Mike Leary
11-28-2011, 07:18 PM
My stomata buddies tell me:

DanaMac
11-28-2011, 07:41 PM
If Matt says that it is good, then it is good :-)
Sounds like a great concept.
Posted via Mobile Device

Mike Leary
11-28-2011, 08:20 PM
If Matt says that it is good, then it is good :-)
Sounds like a great concept.

Matt does know his stuff, but I trust he's smart enough to not put any untried and unproven product into service before field tests were done, especially at the level he's playing at.

DanaMac
11-28-2011, 08:30 PM
Matt does know his stuff, but I trust he's smart enough to not put any untried and unproven product into service before field tests were done, especially at the level he's playing at.

Somebody has to put it in service, for it to field test, not in production manufacturer test. I'm sure there will be pros, as well as cons. You live with them both no matter the product - RB, Hunter, RM, Irritrol, etc.

hoskm01
11-28-2011, 08:37 PM
I'd like to put another brand next to this stuff and see what the diff is. It's been tried and tested (certainly not 20 years) but let's be real... A company like Hunter wouldn't release something like this without proving concept first.

The proposed project is personal at this point, but who knows where it could go. We cant get the majority of doofuses in the field to operate a spray head properly, how long will it take to get the GOOD word out about this stuff?

On a related "green" note, I'll be at this "green" expo/conference for the next two days, should anyone care to stop by! :)

http://www.icsc.org/srch/mt/descs/2011RGC/2011RGC.pdf

Mike Leary
11-28-2011, 08:48 PM
Agree with both Matt and Dana. My point, especially on large scale systems, was I never wanted to be the fall guy. :dizzy:

hoskm01
11-28-2011, 09:07 PM
Wrapped tubing, maybe, for better water distribution, but the ecomat .... no way in hell.



Kiril- If the tube would improve distribution, why would not the mat, given that it is the same material? (Honest question here... I'm not badgering, yet)

Kiril
11-28-2011, 09:07 PM
I'd like to put another brand next to this stuff and see what the diff is. It's been tried and tested (certainly not 20 years) but let's be real... A company like Hunter wouldn't release something like this without proving concept first.

Matt, I would think long and hard before using that ecomat for anything other than high intensity managed turf, and even then ...... Beyond the installation and maintenance issues, off the top of my head a couple of major drawbacks are rooting depth restriction (assuming it really does act as a root barrier) and loss of irrigation efficiency, each of these having their own set of drawbacks.

Kiril- If the tube would improve distribution, why would not the mat, given that it is the same material? (Honest question here... I'm not badgering, yet)

It would, for a while, until it gets clogged with deposits. See above for a couple of reasons why I wouldn't even consider using it.

hoskm01
11-28-2011, 10:02 PM
Matt, I would think long and hard before using that ecomat for anything other than high intensity managed turf

This is the only application it is being considered for. Tifgreen turf on proper base.

the installation and maintenance issues

Installation would be a breeze, once the soil is excavated. Excavate, lay, staple, cover, apply turf. More work than overhead? You bet.

Maintenance free- it is supposed to be. Clean the filter every so often?


rooting depth restriction (assuming it really does act as a root barrier)

HUGE concern for me. Recommendation was 6" on turf. Why not 8 or 10 to maximize storage potential and grow even longer roots? The thought is that the roots grow to the mat and don't need to go any further. In many soils, can you even get water down that far from overhead?

loss of irrigation efficiency

I'm at a loss here. How can it get any more efficient than applying the water underground? The "loss" of efficiency that other [brands] realize is that you must overwater at the emitter to get the ground "wet" throughout the applicable soil profile. Assuming you're wrong and the fleece accomplishes wicking as intended, tell me about a more efficient way to water.

Sprinkus
11-28-2011, 10:13 PM
The next part of the cure is...a KISSS (http://www.kisssusa.com/),

Looks like the same concept.

Kiril
11-29-2011, 12:16 AM
Installation would be a breeze, once the soil is excavated. Excavate, lay, staple, cover, apply turf. More work than overhead? You bet.

Excavation is the biggest issue.

Maintenance free- it is supposed to be. Clean the filter every so often?

I don't buy it. What would happen when you irrigate with a water that is high in carbonates or iron, for example? What about clogging with soil particles? Will the ecomat also block fungal hyphae?

HUGE concern for me. Recommendation was 6" on turf. Why not 8 or 10 to maximize storage potential and grow even longer roots? The thought is that the roots grow to the mat and don't need to go any further. In many soils, can you even get water down that far from overhead?

Given most grasses can have rooting depths that exceed 2 feet, by limiting your rooting depth to 6 inches you are losing a vast amount of potential resources among other things.

Oh, and yes, you can easily get water well beyond 6" via overhead irrigation.

I'm at a loss here. How can it get any more efficient than applying the water underground? The "loss" of efficiency that other [brands] realize is that you must overwater at the emitter to get the ground "wet" throughout the applicable soil profile. Assuming you're wrong and the fleece accomplishes wicking as intended, tell me about a more efficient way to water.

If you have a root barrier at a 6" depth, all the water that gets applied below and/or moves beyond that barrier is a loss. While you may be getting better uniformity, you are losing irrigation/application efficiency.

FIMCO-MEISTER
11-29-2011, 11:32 AM
I'd like to put another brand next to this stuff and see what the diff is. It's been tried and tested (certainly not 20 years) but let's be real... A company like Hunter wouldn't release something like this without proving concept first.

The proposed project is personal at this point, but who knows where it could go. We cant get the majority of doofuses in the field to operate a spray head properly, how long will it take to get the GOOD word out about this stuff?

On a related "green" note, I'll be at this "green" expo/conference for the next two days, should anyone care to stop by! :)

http://www.icsc.org/srch/mt/descs/2011RGC/2011RGC.pdf

Matt I think this is the key paragraph.

"For everywhere overhead irrigation is challenging or impractical, the Eco-Mat is the perfect solution. In locations where the use of overhead irrigation is restricted or prohibited, Eco-Mat is the answer. Since the irrigation is performed below the surface, high-traffic turf areas like amusement parks, public places, and commercial complexes can be used all day every day with no water window issue or worries of vandalism. Since the Eco-Mat can be customized to fit any area, even the oddest shaped designs and green roofs can grow healthy plants and turf. PLD-ESD is also well suited for smaller areas or where complete coverage of the plant material is not necessary (closely spaced plantings)."

If overhead is impractical then SDI should be considered. If overhead is an option then spending money on soil prep at USGA green standards and using overhead would be a can't miss tried and true method.

Mike Leary
11-29-2011, 01:31 PM
If overhead is impractical then SDI should be considered. If overhead is an option then spending money on soil prep at USGA green standards and using overhead would be a can't miss tried and true method.

Above is the key sentence.

Mike Leary
11-29-2011, 05:34 PM
After looking at that Hunter page again, I guess I'm reminded of "Aqua" something that was a drip system for large turf. It failed miserably and the company went out of business. At least with rotors, you can see what (or is not) happening. Imagine having to dig the Hunter failure problem area up, (on your nickel) and somehow salvage what's left of your company's reputation? :dizzy:

FIMCO-MEISTER
11-30-2011, 09:51 PM
FROZEN PLANET GAVE WHISKEY TO PENGUINS

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/environment/frozen-planet-%27gave-whisky-to-penguins%27-201111294605/

irrig8r
12-01-2011, 04:18 PM
Peter, what's the point of sharing that link in this thread?

irrig8r
12-01-2011, 04:30 PM
I got a sneak peak at this in person a couple weeks ago while at Hunter in San Marcos. Cool stuff, I like the concept. Have a project ready to go with this going down for a Tifgreen (dwarf bermuda) court.

Thoughts on SDI and Hunter's approach at root intrusion avoidance without Treflan?

Hunter Eco-Mat (http://headlines.hunterindustries.com/2011/08/introducing-two-new-innovative-products-for-subsurface-drip-irrigation-eco-mat-and-pld-esd-enhanced-subsurface-dripline/)



This link didn't work for me. All I got was an ERROR- NOT FOUND 404

Meanwhile, what sort of ridiculously labor-intensive procedure does one use to install this? Seems like a lot of soil to be excavated and backfilled.

Not my idea of fun, especially for something I couldn't install with any confidence. I expect most of the water applied would be lost to gravity at a depth that wouldn't restrict rooting.

Mike Leary
12-01-2011, 05:22 PM
This link didn't work for me. All I got was an ERROR- NOT FOUND 404

:laugh::laugh: Maybe they pulled it down after someone at Hunter noticed we were piling on. :rolleyes:

FIMCO-MEISTER
12-01-2011, 06:16 PM
Peter, what's the point of sharing that link in this thread?

The thread had gone two days without a comment so I thought a story on penguins being force fed whiskey might bring it back from the dead.

Mike Leary
12-01-2011, 06:26 PM
Peter, what's the point of sharing that link in this thread?

And you guys think I drink too much after retirement.

Wet_Boots
12-01-2011, 07:43 PM
And you guys think I drink too much after retirement.so why didn't you ever tell us you mixed some techno?

tVV4h38wnMI

Mike Leary
12-01-2011, 07:55 PM
Not that there is anything wrong with it, but those little dipwads would never play in my band.

Wet_Boots
12-01-2011, 08:02 PM
I've been following Paul Motian around on Youtube - he mentioned a favorite drummer I never heard before, who played in Jimmy Lunceford's band - not much footage of them to view - of course Motian leads to Bill Evans, and Bill Evans leads to.....

DEC8nqT6Rrk

Mike Leary
12-01-2011, 08:13 PM
The drummer ,Jimmy Cobb, deserves more attention for switching from sticks to brushes, and back. That's what drummers (including me) did, in those days.

Wet_Boots
12-01-2011, 08:23 PM
What's the term for those shell-shaped (I think) thingies you might see in a row on some drum kits? Sort of a wood-block/castanet sound to them.

Mike Leary
12-01-2011, 08:43 PM
What's the term for those shell-shaped (I think) thingies you might see in a row on some drum kits? Sort of a wood-block/castanet sound to them.

It was de rigueur in those days (1958) to have two brass "cowbells" of different pitches between a tuned wood block. They were mounted facing the drummer on the bass drum. I never did get the hang of them, but it was cool.

Wet_Boots
12-01-2011, 09:20 PM
I'm thinking more like multiple tuned wood blocks, in sound. Definitely not metal, like a cowbell. The only famous tune I can think of with that kind of sound is Two Tribes

Rv__VioaUdc

Kiril
12-01-2011, 09:36 PM
I'm thinking more like multiple tuned wood blocks, in sound. Definitely not metal, like a cowbell. The only famous tune I can think of with that kind of sound is Two Tribes

It is just a wood block or a tone block. There are various new incarnations on it now.

http://www.steveweissmusic.com/category/woodblocks/1

Wet_Boots
12-02-2011, 08:17 AM
I would have said wood blocks, but for the look of the items I remember. It could be they were a variant shape. Definitely round-ish.

Mike Leary
12-02-2011, 10:02 AM
I would have said wood blocks, but for the look of the items I remember. It could be they were a variant shape. Definitely round-ish.

Ya, your right, I do remember them, never had any. I think they were played with mallets.

hoskm01
12-02-2011, 12:03 PM
This link didn't work for me. All I got was an ERROR- NOT FOUND 404

Meanwhile, what sort of ridiculously labor-intensive procedure does one use to install this? Seems like a lot of soil to be excavated and backfilled.

Not my idea of fun, especially for something I couldn't install with any confidence. I expect most of the water applied would be lost to gravity at a depth that wouldn't restrict rooting.
Wow, it appears that they took it down. Was just a press release, can't see the harm...

Anywho, yes, excavation would be your largest hurdle and a time consuming effort. Is it right for your site, maybe, maybe not.

Mike Leary
12-02-2011, 02:30 PM
Ya, your right, I do remember them, never had any. I think they were played with mallets.

"Temple Bells" All tuned and usually only played by xylophone or marimba-trained drummers.

Mike Leary
12-02-2011, 06:28 PM
Wow, it appears that they took it down. Was just a press release, can't see the harm...

Now Matt boy, did you happen to drop the fact that you were a member of the nefarious Lawnsite Irrigation Forum when you were at the factory? :rolleyes:

Mike Leary
12-03-2011, 11:41 AM
"Temple Bells" All tuned and usually only played by xylophone or marimba-trained drummers.

It should have read "Temple Blocks", damn that Pacifico. The tune I remember most with them was Leroy Anderson's "Sleigh Ride". Love that whip.

hoskm01
12-04-2011, 11:32 AM
Now Matt boy, did you happen to drop the fact that you were a member of the nefarious Lawnsite Irrigation Forum when you were at the factory? :rolleyes:
I didnt, but maybe that link popped up as linked here and they didn't like it broadcast?

Wet_Boots
12-04-2011, 02:36 PM
It should have read "Temple Blocks", damn that Pacifico. The tune I remember most with them was Leroy Anderson's "Sleigh Ride". Love that whip.Thanks for connecting the dots. Definitely a sound for some dance bands in the old movies. And of course, for the theme of the Late Movie on WCBS-TV

6uAh14ThVDc