Walk behind power questions

[Joel B.]

As you may or may not know I've been using my LX-176 JD tractor for mowing my first year and am thinking about getting a real commercial mower. I am trying to decide between a ZTR and WB. I am concerned with the power of walk behinds. Seems the same deck size in a ZTR has a much larger engine. I assume this is because of the extra weight but if you add up the weight of a WB, a sulky and the operator, it is quite a load for the WB engine.

Exmark 52" Lazer HP 23hp = 965lbs + me (180lbs) = 1145lbs

Exmark 52" Turf TracerHP 17hp = 614lbs + me (180) + sulky (40lbs??) = 834lbs

That's only a 311 pound difference, and the ZTR has a 35% larger engine.

I guess what all this is leading up to is the question: Will a 17hp 52" WB have enough power with a sulky and me on it, even when mulching?

Thank you,

Joel B.

[Scotlawncare]

the question is not if it will have enough power with a rider mulching is as much will it have enough power to mulch the type of grass you cut at the speed you want to cut at. the 17hp kawi is a twin engine and kaw motors have more torque than the kohler moters. Torque is what actually you are looking for.

To answer your question, yes the 17 on the TT will be enough if you don't cut 3-4" off your yards at a time running wide open when wet.

If you can afford the 3-4k differance for the price of the Lazer, then get the lazer. productivity will increase due to the higher cutting speed and bigger motor that allows to cut faster. Mulching will take some off the top speed of the mower to maintain a well groomed look.

both mowers will do the job very well. how much do you want to spend and with that extra cost comes higher productivity too.

If it was me and i had the money, i'd get the lazer. but I can deal with the TT also. :D

Scot

[John Gamba]

Hello joel B
Try this

Turf Tracer 52 Ultracut 23 kohler. Look it up On exmarks web
Yours truly
Johnny G.

[Joel B.]

Thanks John,

Do you happen to know what that unit costs?

Joel B.

[John Gamba]

I Got It For around 5700. It Will mow like The lazer eps That i Got with it. It Bows To nothing. If You have a lot Of hills, Low tress, Or just cant justify a rider it's The Mower for you. I will have Pictures Of It and of it discharging Leaves with bouble High Lifts. You Will be impressed.
John.

[Mowov Erthis]

If you divide your lbs by the hps you get about 50 lbs/hp on either mower, with you on it.

I have 2 WBs: 36 exmark (12.5 hp) and 52 scag (17 hp). Both have plenty of power. It is general maintenance and how you treat it that determines its performance and lifespan.

[Joel B.]

John,

Do you use a sulky with your TT? Stand or sit? Is it the kind that is attached like a trailer (that can jacknife) or a rigid mount?

Thank you,

Joel B.

[lawnworker]

I come up with 26 percent horspower difference between the two moters. 23 horsepower- 26 percent = 17 horsepower. I might be doing this wrong. Anyhow, The hosepower to weight would be one of the most important thing to consider which is a 1 horse to 50 lbs for both.

Another thing to consider would be the hosepower to total cut ratio. this is where alot of mowers fall short. The tracer would have 1 horse per 3 inches of blade whereas the lazer would have 1 horse for every 2.25 inches of blades.The lazer in theary should cut better. what this means in the real world who knows .I would demo them both side by side in the same yard to see how they do.

[TJLC]

I have a new TTHP 17 Kawi 48" cut with the Exmark sitdown steerable sulky. The power seems ok but I think it could use a little more, maybe a 19 Kawi, IMHO.

[John Gamba]

I Have Had a Lot Of walkbehineds In my Past. And since Ive Been With exmark It's been turf tracers. The sulkys Ive Had and liked Are Jungle jims, jungle Wheels They Keep The frount down On hills, They stripe Nice, I Can Fold Them out Of the way with One Hand( Keeping the blades on). But they Wear The Plate down You have To Have It welded Or get a new Plate.
The other one i Have Which Is On My Only walk wright Now Is The pro slide. I Like How It retracts Out Of the way On hills and To Back up. I all so like How It rides Over almost any thing. It stripes Like No other to!. But It can Make the frount ride up On hills, it Not Made to ride down the street You will Wear The Plate down.
I Was Thinking about Selling the TT But since I Played with it this fall I'm Going to Keep it. You Don't Get Many hours On the walks When theres Alot Of Lazers around. And The people That would call Either thought It was a rider OR where dreamers. Like I Said before I Will Take Pictures Today and post them for you tonight.
John

[John Gamba]

Hello Lawnworker
With the New air cleaners They are considered 24 HP. With the ultrcut On the TT The deeper deck cut's Faster and handels The wet grass better Plus you can Run Doubles with No proublems. I Know I Have had both the try deck and the ultra. look For the Pictures tonight to how The Ultra Sends It.
John.
Oh i Do Belive that the TT Is Faster cutter the the lazerHP. With the same horse Power.:eek:

[awm]

one of the best cuts ive ever had was a 36 inch kees w 5 hp kaw. i walked with it an it would cut hay if i ask it to. thing had somemore torque.

[John Gamba]

Joel sorry
Rain, Rain, And More rain. Wount have Pictures till early Next week.
john

[TLS]

Joel,

John G knows what he's talking about.

Exmark makes the 52" Turf Tracer with a 23 Kohler or Kawi. This is an excellent power to cut/weight ratio. The 52" LazerHP w/23hp is a bear, the TT can only be better.

Remember though, this is a BIG walkbehind! They are over 83" long! Thats 6" LONGER than a LazerZ HP! They're only 245lbs lighter than the Z HP too.

Then you have SCAG WB's. They're nice too! Don't overlook these. They have their 52" SWZU WB with a 21hp Kawi (same cc's as 23 + 25hp)

My suggestion would be for you to go to a 52" Lazer-Z HP w/23hp Kawi. Nice compact package that can really mow some grass. If I had a helper and needed another mower, this would be it. Price wise, the WB's are creeping up on the ZTR's! Then you have to add the price of a good sulky = pretty darn close to a ZTR!

Good Luck!

[Jimbo]

Mowov Erthis- Good point!!

Joel- 17HP for 52" WB is fine.

Another point to consider about ZTR engine size VS WB engine size is that the MFG's might take into consideration that purchasers might pull a wagon. Scag for instance sells a hitch just for this purpose. The pull rating for Scag is 250lb.
Of course no one should be pulling a cart and mowing, but it could still be a consideration on the MFG's part?

Jim

[mklawnman]

17Hp on a 52inch is plenty of power to pull ya around, i have one on my Scag WB Hydro, plenty of power and more I'd say.
Matt

[Joel B.]

TLS,

What do you mean by "The 52" LazerHP w/23hp is a bear, the TT can only be better".

I have thought about Scag but I'm not impressed with the dealer around here.

John,

I'll look for the pictures next week, thanks.

Joel B.

[TLS]

Well, the 23hp Kawi on a 52" Lazer-Z HP is a real bear (good powerful combination) also know as a "HOSS" :D

With the TT pulling around 245 less, it "should" be a better performing combination.

The TORQUE is where its at!

Some Torque comparisons:

KAWASAKI
12.5 Kawi.......20.5 tq.
15hp Kawi.......25.5 tq.
17hp Kawi.......27.3 tq.
19hp Kawi.......37.0 tq.
21hp Kawi.......38.4 tq.
23hp Kawi.......39.8 tq.
23hp LC Kawi..41.4 tq.
27hp LC Kawi..43.0 tq.
29 DFI LC Kaw.43.0 tq.

KOHLER
13hp Koh.........21.2 tq.
15hp Koh.........23.7 tq.
18hp Koh 1cyl..28.1 tq.
20hp Koh.........32.5 tq.
23hp Koh.........33.0 tq.
25hp Koh.........40.0 tq.
26hp Koh EFI...41.6 tq.
27hp Koh.........42.7 tq.


VANGUARD LC
27hp Diesel.......44.0 tq.
31hp Gas..........51.6 tq.
31hp Turbo Die..54.6 tq.


HONDA
24hp.................38.0 tq.
(Thats all I have for Honda right now)



ANYWAY...
What I am getting at is the 52" with a 17hp Kawi may be OK for 90% of us, having 12.5 MORE ft/lbs of torque sure isn't going to go UN-used if you have it!

Have fun!

[John Gamba]

Let's talk deck for a Minute. The Tryvantage deck is slower then the ultrcut deck. they had the try deck's on the first lazers. They found that if they had a deeper deck on the rider They could mow faster. It's true Owning both of them. that's lazer try, lazer ultrcut.
the TT Has the ultracut deck the Lazer Hp has the trydeck. The TT year 2000 i just sold has the same combo but Is slower then the new one. They both have the same engine but not the same deck.
Oh for the jap engine's I would rather have a kohler 6 HP On a 60" trydeck TTThen a 23 KAW. JUST MY OPINION.
John.

[TLS]

Sorry to hear that. Your missing out on some real nice long lasting engine combinations.

[rodfather]

17 hp on a 52" WB and velke is fine.

[brucec32]

Originally posted by John Gamba
Let's talk deck for a Minute. The Tryvantage deck is slower then the ultrcut deck. they had the try deck's on the first lazers. They found that if they had a deeper deck on the rider They could mow faster. It's true Owning both of them. that's lazer try, lazer ultrcut.
the TT Has the ultracut deck the Lazer Hp has the trydeck. The TT year 2000 i just sold has the same combo but Is slower then the new one. They both have the same engine but not the same deck.
Oh for the jap engine's I would rather have a kohler 6 HP On a 60" trydeck TTThen a 23 KAW. JUST MY OPINION.
John.

Until that last comment, having owned both types of deck, I was starting to think you might have a good point there. Now I'm wondering. I use all Kohlers here but Kawasaki would have to be pretty amazing to be able to gain the rep and price premiums they have with bad engines.

Besides, I've never put much stake in 10mph mowing anyway. Great if you're doing football fields and parks, but not of much use if you're doing typical home lots, where a light touch on lawns and turning speed are equally important . I'd settle for 2mph less on the short bursts of straight-away mowing I do if the mower does all my lawns well, big and small, and has other advantages.

When I'm cutting grass tall enough to slow me down, the big problem isn't cutting the grass, or even discharging it, it's the huge volume of clippings laying on top of the lawn, despite being beautifully dispersed.

For my type of mowing, the lighter weight, smaller footprint, ability to access a few more gated areas, smooth cut w/o scalping, somewhat lower cost for similar "mowing power" (deck size/weight/hp ratios) makes the HP 48" very versatile. I suspect that the slight difference the deeper deck makes in max mowing speed ability would be offset by the 48" advantages for those mowing less than huge lots. I don't see a big reason to buy a 52" HP model, however.

I worry sometimes that new guys, who usually start out doing residential properties, are getting advice to "buy bigger" from people who are doing much larger properties and thinking in terms of THEIR needs, and so may wind up buying inappropriate size and weight mowers.

btw, a Lazer Z HP with 48" deck can be had with a 21hp Kawasaki engine with a whopping 38.4 lb/ft of torque. You have to buy a lot of engine on big deck mowers to get a simliar ratio of torque to deck width (a rough guide to mowing ability):

Lazer HP 48" / 21hp kawi (trivantage) torque/deck = .8

Lazer Z 52"/23hp Kohler = .63
Lazer Z 52"/25hp Kohler = .77
Lazer Z 52"/27hp Kohler = .82

This last mower finally (barely) beats out the HP, but this mower will cost about $2K more than the HP, weighs 15% more(admitted on bigger tires, so ground pressure may be similar),has a higher center of gravity, and is about 4" longer (every inch counts on some trailers)

Factor in the weight advantage and you can see that the effective amount of mowing power is about equal on the 48" 21 horsepower HP and the 27hp full size 52" Z. Add bigger decks and you have to go to even bigger and more expensive engines to keep up in terms of power. A $6000 Lazer is one thing. But you'd better have a good use for a $11,000 one to make it pay. If you have to leave it on the trailer much of the time while doing smaller properties and gated back yards, it may be a costly buy.

If my math is right, with 4" more deck width, you save one pass of the mower every 12 passes with the bigger 52" deck vs. a 48". I just don't have that many lawns with 50' deep lawns. And even on those that do, the bigger deck might save only a minute or two.

With 12" more width on a 60" deck, you save one pass every 4 with a 60" deck. This is getting much more efficient, but that comes with a price of even less flexibility on small lawns, gated areas, hills, and uneven terrain that might cause unacceptable levels of scalping and gouging.

So, each buyer has to decide how many times that extra all-out speed/wide area capability will pay off, vs the extra weight/initial cost/fuel consumption /size and less flexibility on smaller or more uneven areas the bigger mowers have. But more is not always better.

One analogy... A $40,000 Diesel HD pickup is great for towing and work, but you probably wouldn't choose it as a commuter vehicle for your 5' tall wife. Perhaps a $30,000 midsize SUV would get her to work and also have the utility you need for other things. And you could even fit it in your garage!