Propane power/torque vs gasoline [Archive] - LawnSite.com™ - Lawn Care & Landscaping Business Forum

Terry Metro Lawn

01-08-2012, 03:23 PM

This is from Roush CleanTech:

rlitman

01-09-2012, 10:13 AM

I'm shocked that the two are so close together. Propane carries such a lower energy density that generators running on propane are derated something like 10% in power output.

djagusch

01-09-2012, 12:40 PM

Up compression, change timing, and dump enough fuel is all that is needed to get them close.
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Terry Metro Lawn

01-10-2012, 11:53 AM

Up compression, change timing, and dump enough fuel is all that is needed to get them close.
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Actually, DJ, these are factory vehicles. I don't think they change anything internally. They just flash the PCM. That's why the warranty is intact.

As far as dumping more fuel in, I haven't noticed that much difference.

Jack Roush does a good job with these. It seems, at least, FoMoCo thinks so!

djagusch

01-10-2012, 12:09 PM

Terry,

Fact propane has less energy than gas by approximately 20%. Do you disagree?

If it has less energy you need to use more to produce the same amount of power. Do you disagree?

If you agree with the above they must dump more fuel than gasoline to produce the same amount of power.

PCM flash can change fuel amounts and timing. Do you disagree?

If Roush has not increased the compression ratio he has not taken full advantage of the fuel. Do you disagree? In some circles not using it that way isn't the most green.
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Terry Metro Lawn

01-10-2012, 01:58 PM

Terry,

Fact propane has less energy than gas by approximately 20%. Do you disagree?

If it has less energy you need to use more to produce the same amount of power. Do you disagree?

If you agree with the above they must dump more fuel than gasoline to produce the same amount of power.

PCM flash can change fuel amounts and timing. Do you disagree?

If Roush has not increased the compression ratio he has not taken full advantage of the fuel. Do you disagree? In some circles not using it that way isn't the most green.
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Here's what I find at www.roushcleantech.com:

Roush Propane Vehicles:

Have a 5 year 60,000 mile warranty

Have Identical Performance

Produce 24% less CO

All while reducing fuel costs by 40%

Personally I have neither the knowledge nor the equipment to make these statements. I do, however, trust those who have made their living for the past 40 years making vehicles go very fast when they say it.

I'm not enough of an expert to argue with Jack Roush. ;-)

djagusch

01-10-2012, 04:56 PM

I thought you are the expert of the forum. I would expect you to know the basic properties of propane. Thanks for answering the questions.
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Terry Metro Lawn

01-10-2012, 05:32 PM

I thought you are the expert of the forum. I would expect you to know the basic properties of propane. Thanks for answering the questions.
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To which questions do you refer? Are there fewer BTUs per gallon of propane than gasoline? Yes. Depending on the grade of gasoline 7-25%. What I DON'T know is how efficient gasoline is being used in late model Ford Trucks.

I assume Roush knows what they are talking about. They are the ones partnering with Ford.

I am quite familiar with the basic and complex properties of propane. It is the third most used engine fuel in the world and I have used it with great success for the past 35 years. I've proved it's capabilities in both practical application and on the dyno.

Roush has tested them exhaustively both in racing and dynomometer tests showing there is no perceptible difference in the performance of both fuels.

I don't know how much plainer I can make it. If you have information to the contrary please make it available. I can only speak from experience.

Perhaps this will help:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6ZKpGIgWZ4

Terry Metro Lawn

01-10-2012, 05:35 PM

As far as the "expert" part, I don't know about that. I think I've just outlived those better equipped! ;-)

djagusch

01-10-2012, 06:25 PM

Assume many things.
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Terry Metro Lawn

01-10-2012, 06:47 PM

Assume many things.
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DJ all I can intelligently respond with is my experience. Yes I work for a propane company promoting my product. I've made many statements here in regard to performance vs gasoline. Roush CleanTech makes similar statements in their press releases. Isn't it reasonable to believe that at some point at some time somebody would've called BS? My Dad's been using propane to run his trucks at his hop ranch for better than 25 years. Those trucks are still running! Trust me, I know! Because whenever something goes wrong with them he blames the propane. It's rarely the problem.

All I know is what I know. I truly DO believe that propane is much better for the environment. I DO believe it is 30% less expensive to operate than gasoline. I believe vehicles last much longer using propane. All this and 90% of the world's propane is produced in the United States!

What am I missing here??

djagusch

01-10-2012, 08:06 PM

Your missing a thread deleted about 2 months ago on how you base your fuel pricing for the mowing industry. I wish I had printed that post.

Why does a industry that wants to get in the market has such a weird pricing structure? Home propane different, than fork lift tanks, to bbq tanks, to mower tanks, and auto gas when comparing cost per gallon.

Just seems like a viable fuel source but the industry is trying to increase profits by getting any gov money it can by lobbying etc. You use these gov money as a closing tool in many of your posts.

The fuel source can beat gas on price with the green benifit's as a bonus, but the industry is to greedy. Needs to collect as much as it thinks it can, the mowing industry has been a target of increase profits.
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djagusch

01-10-2012, 08:08 PM

Also ill be emailing in the next coming days to roush about the data to back their claims.
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Terry Metro Lawn

01-11-2012, 08:08 AM

Your missing a thread deleted about 2 months ago on how you base your fuel pricing for the mowing industry. I wish I had printed that post.

Why does a industry that wants to get in the market has such a weird pricing structure? Home propane different, than fork lift tanks, to bbq tanks, to mower tanks, and auto gas when comparing cost per gallon.

Just seems like a viable fuel source but the industry is trying to increase profits by getting any gov money it can by lobbying etc. You use these gov money as a closing tool in many of your posts.

The fuel source can beat gas on price with the green benifit's as a bonus, but the industry is to greedy. Needs to collect as much as it thinks it can, the mowing industry has been a target of increase profits.
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Like any industry our product is priced by volume. If you don't do business with a bulk plant you can't expect volume pricing. Don't judge the whole industry by the corner gas station dispenser.

As for the incentives PERC offers, that is paid to the customer not to us. These are Clean Air initiative funds to promote environmentally friendly fuels such as propane. You are the first person I've come across that thinks this is a BAD thing. I don't know how to answer you here.

Terry Metro Lawn

01-11-2012, 08:09 AM

Also ill be emailing in the next coming days to roush about the data to back their claims.
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Please post the results!

Terry Metro Lawn

01-11-2012, 08:23 AM

the mowing industry has been a target of increase profits.
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The mowing industry has been targeted because it is a major polluter - up to 7% of the total nationwide. (EPA)

You don't think big oil is making a profit? At least our profit is spent here, not overseas to those not so friendly with us.

djagusch

01-11-2012, 10:30 AM

Like any industry our product is priced by volume. If you don't do business with a bulk plant you can't expect volume pricing. Don't judge the whole industry by the corner gas station dispenser.

As for the incentives PERC offers, that is paid to the customer not to us. These are Clean Air initiative funds to promote environmentally friendly fuels such as propane. You are the first person I've come across that thinks this is a BAD thing. I don't know how to answer you here.

Everyone thinks its good when the money is going in their pocket. But when it comes to taxes nobody likes them. I wonder where the money comes from to promote clean energy, the tax payer.

The goes indirectly to suppliers through the purchasers. If they didn't get the free money would they do it. Would they question the pricing if it wasn't free.
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djagusch

01-11-2012, 10:38 AM

Please post the results!

The results from researching their website so far shows no facts.

Testimonials are used "as seen on tv" products use these also.

Use the 50% lower maintenance claim to reduce costs.

Use 30 to 40% less than gas. Is this per gallon or for cost per mile, doesn't say. Also shows a .50 cent per gallon rebate which last I heard was done in 2011. Also used fuel at $3.55/gal.

Doesn't say a fuel usage on the power dyno run.
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djagusch

01-11-2012, 10:48 AM

The mowing industry has been targeted because it is a major polluter - up to 7% of the total nationwide. (EPA)

You don't think big oil is making a profit? At least our profit is spent here, not overseas to those not so friendly with us.

EPA, the majority think is a major over reach of gov. Glad you believe their data.

Profit is good, yes. But when I pricing is being done in the unusually was it is in the industry the word "why" comes up. Volume sure does matter. I'm just wondering why the forklift guy gets a different price to a mowing company? It seems like the price is dependant on making it run just slightly cheaper than gas, using the tax incentives and maintenance for the closing of the sale.
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Terry Metro Lawn

01-12-2012, 10:30 PM

Sorry DJ, I've been presenting at the Kawasaki Engine Schools. Seems they've been tricked into using our product/fuel exclusively for their offerings.

Let's see, Ford Motor Company, Roush Racing, Kawasaki Engine Company, Theisen Elevator, Frito Lay, Schwans.... I could go on and on. What do you think these companies see in propane as an engine fuel?

Thirteen mower manufacturers are offering OEM propane mowers. Why?

I've offered my numbers and experience. I'm sorry you don't believe me. You don't believe Kawasaki or Roush either. At least I'm in good company?

I think we need to move on. Can we agree to disagree?

djagusch

01-13-2012, 09:15 AM

Yes I disagree. I can agree to that. Also I agree to point out misleading information that is presented as facts.

As for as your company. Roush will do anything to make a buck, why would ford pass this off to another comapny when they by far how the most knowledge about their products. Roush I believe is considered a upfitter in the auto world, van converters are also considered in this group. I'm waiting to get the epa mpg rating for their system, pretty sure since of their volumes the rating does not need to be done.

Why does kawi pass the propane side to other companies? I would say they have more resources than onyx. Is it because they are unsure of the market?

Propane has been around very long time. It was used in the 80's. What has changed since then? I notice a different means of delivery in current vehicles, a comparison could be a carb to fuel injection. I just don't see why the push besides being green and local fuel (which price raises and lowers with gas).

I still think I'm going to switch a mower over to propane to try it. The hardest part is there is very little real testing, mostly opinions/experience. And when you push for numbers you get percentages instead of real numbers. I want to know the baseline number and propane number, nobody states those.

We will disagree.
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Terry Metro Lawn

01-13-2012, 12:26 PM

You know DJ, you're absolutely correct. I would also like to see real numbers. Maybe we can strike a deal.

As far as Dyno tests and such, though, I'm going to have to trust Roush and all the others.

The biggest difference between then and now is technology. Like I said, comparing the 20# cell phones of the nineties to todays.