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HOMER
11-23-2002, 10:43 AM
My 2000 Dodge was a fine truck............that is until it hit 50,000 miles.

I'm pissed right now and since I own it I can talk about it. The transmission is on the checkout line. This comes just a week after the heater core gave up and started steaming the cab up, the overdrive button is now an intermittent button, sometimes it engages and sometimes it doesn't. The vaccum pump, or air pump, which costs $1530.00 to replce from the dealer is leaking oil and of corse it's out of warranty along with all the other items I've mentioned.

Lets see:

$1530.00 for pump
$125.00 heater core
$372.00 Labor for installation of heater core
????????? unsure about o/d button, haven't had a chance to get it checked out and very unsure about the tranny cause this just happened yesterday......with 3 days left until Thanksgiving and no way to pull my trailer I guess I'll have some pissed customers now!

I read once where the Cummins would be there for a while but the truck would fall down around it......I didn't understand it when I read it but now I do.

6 months left on the lease and I'm very tempted to make an early return.

Lesson learned: Always purchase that extended warranty they try and sell you and never listen to those that say it's a bad investment......if you do it at purchase you'll get used to the extra included in the payment.........if you don't.....like me........your wondering where the moneys gonna come from to fix all the crap that's tearin' up-------not to mention what I'm gonna tell my customers that expect their lawns to look good next week.

Now would be a good time for it to start raining and continue right on through Thanksgiving.....

Sorry Dodge........you let me down.

DLS1
11-23-2002, 10:55 AM
I buy warantees on everything. Just got a 2001 Dodge caravan. Got there best cover all warantee uo tp 100,000 miles. Get warantees on all electronics that cost me over $99. I have gotten computers repaired for free and gotten new home stereo systems replaced with a newer system since I borugh it in 4 times at Best Buy over a 3 year period. Well worth the money on cars since it cost about $70 - $100 an hour to get cars worked on now.

Rooster
11-23-2002, 10:58 AM
Hi Homer,
Long time no chat!!!
Sorry for your troubles.


I don't remember the site, but I do recall that the government requires that pollution control equipment on trucks are required longer than some warranties.

Have you ever had any service done on any componet that failed??? You might consider looking at the situation from that angle.

also. www.warranty gold.com

Rick

Brickman
11-23-2002, 11:14 AM
Homer I am sorry to hear of your misfortune, but there is a reason I always brag on the brand I brag on.

Good luck man with what ya do.


As for extended warranties I have bought them, paid the big $$ for them and then I don't have ANY problems with the item. To me it was $$ thrown down the drain.
Like Mr. Homer could buy extended warranties for the rest of his life and never use it agian. Ya just never know.



:drinkup: :drinkup:

DLS1
11-23-2002, 11:20 AM
The warantee on my caravan is $1 a day. I like to look at it that way and not worry about about needing alot of money at once for repair costs if something breaks down such as transmission, motor,electronic parts. The peace of mind is also a bonus.

jsr2741
11-23-2002, 01:29 PM
Sorry about your truck Homer. But one bad apple doesn't spoil the barrel.

As far parts go you could check on www.turbodieselregister.com and if you already belong to it ask any of those guys a way to do it yourself. Also there's probably someone on there that could get you those parts at as substantially lower price.

On your overdrive its been told to me by guys who run the auto in their diesel that you shouldn't drive those trucks with the o/d on under 45 mph.

Hope this helps and if you dont belong to tdr it would be a good idea to do so. Way to much knowledge on that site for the Cummins owner not to have access to.

Good Luck

yourlawnguy
11-23-2002, 01:44 PM
WOW! that really sucks! No way to get your truck fixed in time but have you looked around for a rental? It'd probably be worth it to get your jobs done for the holiday. Uhaul, Ryder, Lowes any ojne of these could probablty rent you a pick up truck. Customers don't like excuses, they want results.

odin
11-23-2002, 02:06 PM
The answer to your problem aint gonna be getting one of brickman's fraud's
here's what ya need:D

Gravel Rat
11-23-2002, 03:59 PM
You should bought a Ford you wouldn't have all those problems your getting with the super high quality truck Dodge puts out :D

Dealers have these trucks built so they are a continous revenue machine so they can keep soaking you for more money when the parts start failing Dodge uses this tactic more than anybody else because they got to make up for the lack of sales revenue :(

In all seriousness I would either decide to take a slight loss and get another truck (Dodge Ford Chev) or keep the truck you have now and keep dumping money into it. When repair payments start exceeding new truck payments its time to get out every truck has its problems but you have a real bad one.

Good Luck

Brickman
11-23-2002, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by odin00
The answer to your problem aint gonna be getting one of brickman's fraud's
here's what ya need:D


Odin I hate to be the one to shatter your bubble but there are way more Fords doing hot shot hauling than GM ever dreamed of doing, and over 2 million PS engines built. Now those are numbers that GM has yet to dream of doing, let alone come close to doing.


BTW I am glad you sticking around to argue about this. :D

Homer a pic is worth a thousand words, here is what it is all about.

odin
11-23-2002, 10:14 PM
I hate to bust your bubble brickman but general motors sell more pickups then any body else in the world.

Gm is on track again this year to break their last years truck sales record.
So general motors out sells fraund and there aint no around that :D

Brickman
11-23-2002, 11:07 PM
Odin the reason they out sell Ford is because they have two divsions selling trucks. If Ford had two divisions guess who would out sell who. Ford almost sells as many with one division as GM does with two. Besides GM has to sell that many to replace the POS that don't make the grade. Go browse Plow Site, there is PLENTY of crying by die hard GMers that are planning to switch brands when they buy the next time.

odin
11-24-2002, 12:28 AM
brickman, it gotta be hard for you fraud owners to drive your piece of **** fraud 's.
After all its gotta be hard driveing down the road and haveing to watch people pulling their pants off because of those fraud 's makeing their asses want to dip a snuff.
**** has a way of haveing that effect on people when it drives by:D
Damn they such a piece of **** i gotta flush the comode now just thinking about em.:D

Brickman
11-24-2002, 12:51 AM
Odin you go flush your Sh****R and the suction will drag down with it your light weight POS.


:D :D

Gravel Rat
11-24-2002, 12:57 AM
Around my area Ford sells the most Chev/Gmc is trying to keep up and Dodge well they are so behind don't think they are selling many trucks this year. There is more PSD powered trucks on the road here over Chevy Duracrap there is more Dodge Cummins trucks over Durajap. There is quite a few of the anemic 6.2 and 6.5 powered Chev GMC truck you know they are around because they got that terrible sound when they are idling.

The guys buying Chevies here are buying more gassers over diesel you see more 02 gas pot 3/4 and 1 ton trucks I guess guys are scared the aluminum heads will blow right off the engine they probably used Japanese steel for the head bolts.

Mowingman
11-24-2002, 01:17 AM
Homer,
I was looking at my Dodge warranty book just a few days ago and everything related to emissions control is covered by a lot longer warranty than the rest of the truck. That air pump should be covered. I don't remember the exact warranty on the emissions components, but it is something like 5 yrs/60,000 miles or thereabouts.:)

odin
11-24-2002, 01:20 AM
Brickman

Mine and all the damn camodes are blocked up from fraud ****:D

It take a powerfull lot of camodes for second rate **** to go down em.
Damn i now know why they makers of camodes are doing 1000000000 times the business ,its from all that fraud **** getting flushed down em:D

Brickman
11-24-2002, 01:23 AM
Odin you and Charles related??? Cuz that makes about as much sense as a bunch of his BS.

My crapper is working fine, cuz I got a sign out by my front entrance that says no Chebie POS allowed. Ford only. :D All others will be flushed. roflmao

What more can I say, girls like my truck. So do you think I am going to change? Not on your life.

:D :D :D

Brickman
11-24-2002, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by odin00
Brickman

Mine and all the damn camodes are blocked up from fraud ****:D

It take a powerfull lot of camodes for second rate **** to go down em.
Damn i now know why they makers of camodes are doing 1000000000 times the business ,its from all that fraud **** getting flushed down em:D



Odin thanks for the insider trading tip, I am calling my broker to buy more stock in the crapper manufacters.

Dennis E.
11-24-2002, 11:25 AM
:D :cool: :blob2: :blob3: :blob4: :blob1:

GO FORD!

odin
11-24-2002, 12:22 PM
That would be easy to do brickman just down down to your broker and buy ford fraud stock:D They the biggest manufacters of shitters in the world:D

Those girls that like to ride around in frauds gotta be dirty to want to ride around in ****:D

Brickman
11-24-2002, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by odin00
................

Those girls that like to ride around in frauds gotta be dirty to want to ride around in ****:D




Take it easy now. You talkin about my momma and sisters. I don't want to have to drive up to Chicago with my Ford and thump on you.

odin
11-24-2002, 03:30 PM
Sorry for that comment it was stupid i didnt relize you were talking about your mom and sisters.And even if it werent them it is still stupid.

But any time partner you want to try some thumping i will send you free of charge a airline ticket and you are welcome to try :D

just send a privite message i will get you a ticket in the mail :D

Brickman
11-24-2002, 03:42 PM
My mom and sisters were some of the girls I meant like my truck.
Other gals besides family like it too.

I didn't care if you wanted to call my ex dirty. I have called her much worse names than that. But when its about family...............

Because I am a smaller guy than you the only way I could thump on you is to show up unanounce before you could call your brothers. And before you had time to grab your BAR. :D So thanks but no thanks for the offer of a ticket.

odin
11-24-2002, 03:45 PM
I was just funning brickman the comment was stupid, im not a complete brute :D
Dont think a ex widow maker screemin eagle needs a bar and his brothers thou:D

Take care im sorry the thread got out of hand

bubble boy
11-24-2002, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by Brickman
Odin the reason they out sell Ford is because they have two divsions selling trucks. If Ford had two divisions guess who would out sell who. Ford almost sells as many with one division as GM does with two. Besides GM has to sell that many to replace the POS that don't make the grade. Go browse Plow Site, there is PLENTY of crying by die hard GMers that are planning to switch brands when they buy the next time.

now i couldn't care less who sold more, but brikman i think you're mixing the argument up.

how does having 2 divisions make gm sell more trucks? if they created 10 truck divisions, would they sell more? no, each division would just sell 1/10. aggregate the sales, still the same total annual #.

now i dont know if ford or gm sold more last yr, but an f series sale counts as 1, and a gmc OR chevy sale counts as one.

now what i read a couple years back was that ford is the best selling nameplate only cause gm allows it. that is, if they eliminated the GMC line, which are all chevy clones, theory says those who would have purchased GMC would go to chevy. and then more chevy's would be sold than ford.

fords should say thank you.


and homer try losing a dodge tranny 4 hrs into a 15" storm. :blob2: :blob2: :blob2:

Brickman
11-24-2002, 03:53 PM
Well Odin I guess we can still be friends. Too bad we can't smoke a peace pipe. :D :D :D

I can see it now, one day a few years from now one of your twins will fall hopelessly in love with a guy like Swampbeast that you begin to like and he comes out to the house for a first visit here he is driving a Ford. LMAO I can see it now as you throw him off the porch onto his A and you tell him don't ever come back.

ROFLMAO

:D :D :D :laugh: :laugh:

odin
11-24-2002, 04:03 PM
I think i could handle it if he had a ford paul .Like i said the argument is just fun im just glad you are driveing a american made UAW made truck in the long run that is all that counts.
If gm and ford keep loseing market care to the japs and euros this may seem crazy but there may be a day there wont be a ford and gm.

I went to work for gm in 66 gm had almost 60% of the market by itself.

In the year 2002 all three of the big three togeather dont have 60% of our own car market and its only gonna get worse.

Ford and dodge aint the enemy its the japs.

Brickman
11-24-2002, 04:13 PM
I think your right man. Altho Chevy might go away, I don't think Ford will. :D :D :D :D

Good thing you and I don't live across the fence from each other, both trucks would be ridled with holes about now from target practice.
lmao

odin
11-24-2002, 04:28 PM
Ford keeps loseing 5 billion a year they gonna go away pretty quick:D

GreginAlaska
11-24-2002, 07:36 PM
A lot of the big companies that use the heck out of their trucks, like Haliburton etc, use Fords. They test different trucks from time to time and they KNOW how much it cost to keep them running. Ford comes out the cheapest everytime because they have fewer break downs per mile. When my Dad was manager for Baker Oil Tools up here the corporation would send up a Chevy or a Dodge so it could be tested in the cold. He would have to make sure all maintenance was done by the book and document all the problems. He always hated that because it meant he would have down time on the Chevies or Dodges while the Ford would just keep going. I can remember a couple of times when he was using my old 60 something Ford to haul tools to a rig because all the other Ford were out and the other brand was broken and waiting for a part. He always felt that made them look unprofessional but thought that not shpwing up was way worse.

When I went to work for Arco on the Slope we had Ford trucks for the first ten years or so. Where I work is about 17 miles from our camp. I was never stranded by a Ford truck. Then we started getting Chevies from a lease company that is owned by a Native corporation, Arco did this because they wanted to get in good with them because they owned some property that Arco wanted to drill on. The "Alpine" oilfeild is on this property now. It was a political decision, not one about the trucks. Anyways, I have been stranded by those @##$#@@&& broken down Chevies at least 20 times in the last 7 years. One was a Duramax that had a whole 70 miles on it. It lost the headgasket. Also the Chevies won't bust the snowdrifts as well as the Fords did, ground clearence maybe? aggravating! Our vehicle maintenance department says that the cost per mile with the Chevies is near 40 % higher than the Fords.

Gravel Rat
11-25-2002, 12:45 AM
Yup Fords are used for more industrial uses than any other brand almost all logging contractors buy Fords to use as crummies and service trucks. You wouldn't take any other brand into a remote camp many kms away from a dealer or a repair shop and usually takes a barge ride to the nearest paved road.

You meantion Dodge everybody damn near pizzes their pants laughing they would rather walk its more reliable Chebbies 4x4 systems are junk not strong enough.

A P/U truck used in the forest industry is beat to rat sh*t and still comes out shining the most reliable truck taken into the bush when you got 6 loggers making 30 bucks an hour and their truck is broke down and can't get to the site that costs big bucks.

ADLAWNCUTTERS
11-25-2002, 02:59 AM
homer sorry to hear about your truck .i've been there done that. all brands male lemons.now in your case i would grab a salesmen and see if i could trade that truck in without dumping 2,000 into it. or i would lease a truck but i would dump that one.i do snowplowing so i depend on my trucks i use ford psd's ,good luck

HOMER
11-25-2002, 07:15 AM
Thanks for all the replies and even the laughter from a few of these. All this talk about Ford reliability has got me thinking! Maybe I should trade this beast off. I dunno...........I still have a few months left on the lease and I need to do something before it's time to turn it in. Trade would be the wisest move but I was sure hoping to get into something cheaper payment wise. I will say that the Dodge has only been in the shop once since I got it and that was fuel pressure related and fixed under warranty. All this has come up in the last couple weeks and the timing is just bad. My Daughter backed into my truck with our SUV so now we have dents to pay the deductibles on so they can be fixed, just another $1000.00 to come up with. Christmas ain't looking good for the Homers:rolleyes:

On a brighter note: I did go to that transmission site, DTT, got on their forum and explained what had happened. The owner and tranny guru replied and said it sounded like the governor to him and it could be fixed for around $175.00 if I did the work myself. I had to run a pressure test first to establish and identify the problem. All that's greek to me but he claims if I can service the tranny then I can replace the governor. Also a call is in order to Chrysler to complain about their product that I held to such a high standard just a few thousand miles ago.

Hey, it's only money right? And us grass cutters make a ton........or so I've been told!:cry:

AltaLawnCare
11-25-2002, 11:25 AM
Hey Homer, sorry to hear about these problems. :(
I've been lucky with my '00 Sport, its only been in once. The transmissions are the weak points,.
There is a mod which will make the transmission start with OD off, instaed of on, you might want to ask DTT about that. Dtt knows their crap!

Have you changed out your coolant? Its more important for diesels than gas burners.

I'm going on 65,000 on mine, but after this I might see if I can buy an extended warranty..:eek:

bubble boy
11-25-2002, 02:42 PM
last chevy we bought they started in on the sales pitch for the extended warrenty, then realized a company was named as the purchaser.

told me commercial purchases can't get extended warrenty. i don't know if it was the particular dealer, or that company they used for the warrenty coverage, or gm canada.

zmowing
11-28-2002, 07:07 PM
we have all been there.you need a work truck plus a spare the bigger you get the more backup you need the list goes on wackers,blowers. mowers it's only the part of business Byron :blob2:

dr grass
11-29-2002, 03:38 AM
JUST BUY A GOT DAM CHEVY



shep :dizzy: :sleeping:

little green guy
12-01-2002, 02:34 AM
The only reason Ford sells more is because us chevy guys don't have to replace our trucks as often :p

BTW, i've never been stranded with a chevy but just a few times with a Ford (Found On Road Dead)

AltaLawnCare
12-01-2002, 08:58 AM
So Homer,
What did you find out about your truck?
:confused:

Randy J
12-01-2002, 10:31 AM
Homer, sorry to hear about your truck. Mine is actually weeping around the vacumm pump also, but not enough to spot the driveway, so not enough to worry about. I do remember seeing a thread on the TDR a while back about replacing the vacumm pump, and if I remember correctly it's something you can do yourself, and save considerable. You might want to do a search on it. As for the cruise control O/D button, mine is the same way. Since I use the button to slow down quite often, it can get real frustrating. But, look at it this way, compared to glow plugs and glow plug relays going out, or the possibility of an aluminum head on a cast block giving you problems, or a very expensive water pump replacement, it's not that bad. All makes have their problems, (contrary to what Gravel Rat thinks - even Ford!), and all have their pluses. I will say this, other than, for some strange reason, a cruise control solenoid once a year, I've had no problems in 136000 miles on my Dodge/Cummins. I have a friend that pulls hard with his Dodge. With his '93, not a single problem (other than tranny - which they will all have - except for the allison) in 200,000 miles. His '99 however ended up with a cracked block. Cummins warranted it though, even though he had 180,000 miles on it.
I recently asked someone for some info on a Ford I'm considering. It has 158000 miles on it. The response was, and I agree with it, if it's been taken care of, it should have another 100,000 miles on it. That's not too bad. Unless you consider if it were a Dodge/Cummins. Then we'd be saying it had another 350000 miles on it.;)
Anyway, if you plan on getting rid of it soon, now might be the time. But if you've been happy with the truck and plan on keeping it, I'd put the money into it. It'll probably last longer than you do.
Either way, good luck.
Randy

Brickman
12-01-2002, 11:24 AM
Randy check out the Chebie Forum on Plow Site. There are a few guys that hate the Allison there. Some thing about lots of problems, and Chebie won't take care of most of them, cuz they don't know how. :D

For the record there are plenty of Strokers with over 400K on them. (Yeah I know about the million mile Cummins) The one you are looking at with another 100K will still be below 300K. Look at it this way, when that PS might give up on ya, your Dodge body will be :dizzy: , then swap engines and keep going. Knowing that you got one of very few Cummins in a Ford.

I still wish I could get one in my Ford. Maybe some day I will have to. :D :D

AltaLawnCare
12-01-2002, 12:08 PM
Seems like I've heard about problems with those Allisons too. But I can't remeber where. I think the way to go is with one of the AM companies, like DTT.

cclllc
12-15-2002, 01:19 PM
Hey Homer,
Just read this post.Sorry about your truck.I like Dodge myself but I own 2 Chevy's...'91 w/223000 on it and '85 w/148000 on it.I have had tranny trouble on the 85 but it is never unhooked from the trailer.Well hardly ever.The '91 only had to replace the w/pump.knock on wood.

GraZZmaZter
12-21-2002, 02:48 AM
I have continually heard nothing but bad things about those Dodges. I dont think i would trust one as far as i could throw it. ill stick with my Chevys!

HOMER
12-29-2002, 12:57 PM
Sorry guys, forgot I put this back here in the Truck forum.

The problem turned out to be a governor solenoid. That was actually the cheaper of the 2 things repaired. The heater core which I bought from Car Quest was $105.00+ tax......the labor to install it was $375.00! I wrote the dealership a check for $690.00+ .

The overdrive button problem has went away since having it repaired so either I got ripped or they killed 2 birds with one stone. At least I have heat!

I have until April to decide what to do with it.........still not sure. I'd really like to hear from someone that traded a Cummins for a PS and find out if they have any regrets.

Had one of those 2003 Cummins pass me yesterday with duals......2 big chrome tips out each side..........she was pretty!

Sounded good too.

Solid white dually.

I'm so confused:dizzy:

Randy J
12-29-2002, 02:05 PM
Hey Homer, congratulations on getting it fixed. Sorry to hear you're having so many problems. Here's the thing on a new truck, both the Cummins and Powerstroke are new versions for this year. Of the 2, the Cummins is more like it's predecessor, as the only thing really changed on it was fuel delivery. The Powerstroke is a complete new engine, 6.0 liter vs. 7.3 liter. For this reason, I would feel more confident that the Cummins would have less "new engine" problems than the Powerstroke. If you were to wait a couple of years, for any bugs to be worked out, then this would be less of an objection.
As for the truck, well, Dodge obviously has its problems, but I have 139,000 miles on my truck, and other than cruise control issues, I've had no problems. (I've even had the same brake pads for over 130,000 miles.) So we know there are some less problem prone out there than yours has been. Ford is going to be the same way. There will be some trouble prone trucks out there, and some that never have a problem.
Personally I prefer the Cummins over the Powerstroke, even though I now own one of each. I just feel more comfortable that the Cummins will be more reliable over an extended period, especially if turned up any. The Cummins is used in far more applications than the Powerstroke, and it has proven itself to be very durable.
Either way, I'm sure you'll end up with a good truck. Good luck and enjoy the shopping anyway.
Randy

Brickman
12-29-2002, 02:51 PM
RANDY J HAS A POWER STROKE. Man I am glad you finally let it out. This waiting has been killing me.


:D :D :D :D :D :D


Randy I would love to know the numbers of actual Cummins in use. I am sure there are tons, and as I have stated before would like to have a 12 valve in my F 250.
But as far as the numbers go there have been over 2 MILLION Power Stroke engines put into the pickups. That does not include Excursion, the Ford vans, the school buses, delivery trucks, and vans. It would be very interesting to know the actual numbers.

Randy J
12-29-2002, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by Brickman
RANDY J HAS A POWER STROKE. Man I am glad you finally let it out. This waiting has been killing me.


:D :D :D :D :D :D


I figured you'd be happy to finally read this. It's actually a pretty nice truck. There was an interesting article in Autoweek, last week. It was talking about how diesels were going to grow. Dodge only sells about 100,000 diesel pickups a year, no where near the number Ford sells, I'm sure. But the Cummins is used in tractors, buses, medium duty trucks, even an option in heavier duty Fords.

Randy

landscaper3
12-29-2002, 07:33 PM
I own new Chevy's, Fords and Dodges. We replaced transmissions in ALL!! trucks, we replaced more parts on our Chevys then the others, Dodge wasnt too far behind. The Chevy parts were easier to get and costed less (Thank god) We still have The Chevy's and Dodges and are most definately keeping our Fords. With 8 trucks at one time The Fords are my choice but the cost of parts do keep me buying Chevy's and those Dodges have a ton better stearing radius while plowing ans sanding then them all! So Each one has its strong points and weekness. If Cat ever makes a truck engine for pickups, no matter what make Ill be there. Cummings and Powerstrokes are great motors and GM finally!!!!!!! came up with an equil plus they offer the BEST!!!! transmission available even though they dont make it (Allison) cant kill those trany's only one we havent killed (YET!) hope not!

Gravel Rat
12-29-2002, 09:53 PM
Any diesel truck with a automatic transmission behind it isn't gonna last because they can't stand up to the viberation a diesel creates. The Allison tranny isn't any better than the ones used in Ford or Dodge because they can't build a transmission large enough and still fit in a P/U frame. I would never buy a truck with a auto tranny every truck I have owned is a manual alot less troubles and more control of the speed and gearing.

As for what Randy says about Cummins in other applications that doesn't mean a rats *** for Dodge sales Dodge can't build good trucks and with the Chrysler corporation being owned by Dialmer its nothing but bad news.

Dodges are built like Freightliners so they can be sold cheaper than the competition most people buy them just because they can be had for alot less than a Ford or Chev. You look at the resale value of a Dodge its just like a Freightliner which is far less than the competion also you own one you own it for life because nobody else will buy it.

The Dailmer corporation is run by a bunch of idiots that play with blocks on the floor would never buy one of their products. The stupid idiots have ruined Western Star trucks they took the plant away from the province I live in and my uncle lost his job.

The reason why you see the ISB used in different types of equipment and trucks is they are a independant engine manufacturer they don't care who they sell their engines too.

International/Navistar builds their own engines for their trucks only they won't sell their engines for use in MD Fords like the 650 and 750. Ford worked with International/Navistar on the 6.9-7.3 and the PSD to make these engines work in Ford light trucks and have been since 83 when the 6.9 came out.

Its just like Mack, Mack builds their own engines for use in their trucks you don't see a Mack engine powering any other manufacturers trucks. Mack is the only manufacturer that builds all their own parts Engine Transmission Axles and Suspension.

As for the ISB being a good engine for MDT applications its not the 466E is a Far superior engine its even better than the 3126 Cat the 530E is better than the ISC 8.3 Cummins. You see more International trucks powered by 466 engines working everyday almost flawlessly. Any guy I talk to that has a ISB in a MDT says its a POS it can barely get out of its own way and they would never own one again. One guy he delivers pet food he got rid of his ISB powered Freightliner and bought a 466E powered International and he's happier than a pig in ****.

lee b
12-29-2002, 10:58 PM
Gravel Rat has hit the nail on the head, there is not a better engine in its power class than a 466 International. That's the reason in medium duty trucks International rules, a good truck and the best engine ever put in a truck. We run International trucks spreading fertilizer, overloaded, tached out, bogging knee-deep all-day long, no problems.

GreginAlaska
12-29-2002, 11:42 PM
I thought you could get a powerstroke in the 650 and 750? That's Navistar, right?

Gravel Rat
12-29-2002, 11:47 PM
Yes you can but its not the same as a 444E which is International version of the PSD but its been replaced with the 6.0 PSD or the 363. I wouldn't want a PSD in a 650 just too small just like the Cummins its all right for real lightly spec'ed 650 like a schoolbus that lives in flat areas.

Randy J
12-30-2002, 08:05 AM
The Powerstroke, 444E, has been standard equipment in a 550/650, with the Cummins as optional equipment.
Pretty good reasoning for the lack of use of the 444E outside of Ford trucks, too bad it's a farce! The Cummins is an industrial engine, and is used in industrial applications - successfully. The Navistar 444E is not! Don't get me wrong, the 444E is a good engine for a pickup truck. The Cummins just has a much larger application, and is a much heavier duty engine. Not sure 'bout the 6.0, but the 7.3 doesn't have as many main bearings as the Cummins, not to mention the crankshaft is about 1/2 as thick. May be overkill, but the Cummins is still heavier duty than the Powerstroke (at least the 7.3 - I'd be interested to see inside the 6.0). And the straight 6 is just naturally better at torque - which is what matters to a diesel, than a V8. Even in gasoline engines that's true. The 466E is a straight 6, and is a very good motor.

As for the rest of your statement Gravel Rat, well, that just pretty much speaks for itself...

Either way Homer, if you're going truck shopping, you have 3 good trucks to choose from. And contrary to what Gravel Rat says, although it's not perfect, the Allison in the GM is better than the Ford or Dodge transmissions. It just has some shift characteristics that would drive a lot of people nuts. I will say however that Dodge is going to be selling the Cummins HO, with an upgraded auto tranny starting in about 1 month. If you're looking for a manual, I'd say the trucks are even in the transmission department. As for the rest of the truck, I think it's personal preference. Which one are you more comfortable in? As I said before, take the engines out of the equation, and all three build good trucks, with some bad ones here and there. Although I'm not a fan of GM's independent front suspension.

Now that we've turned this into a major "mine is better than yours" thread, I'm sure you're fully prepared to go shopping;) !

Randy

Gravel Rat
12-30-2002, 01:01 PM
Industrial engine that makes me laugh the ISB is a small engine its a toy sure its used in excavators etc but its no different than Isuzus Johndeere Mitsubushi used in other equipement.

Theres nothing wrong with V-8 designed engines the 444 is designed for truck purposes the ISB was never designed for truck use when it first appeared. It took Dodge to work with Cummins to make the engine work in light truck applications otherwise the engine was strictly a stationary and heavy equipment engine rated at 100-190hp. International builds engines and trucks they design them to work well together they have been buiding engines just aslong as Cummins. Most farmers that supply your food have relied on International engines to run tractors to trucks to grow grain etc.

I don't know what you do for a living Randy but its sure damn funny how you beleive the Cummins is the best engine out there and think V-8 diesel engine are junk. Anyhow theres no point in arguing with you drive a Dodge and that says something about you :rolleyes:

I have worked around heavy equipment all my life and Cummins engines are no better than any other brand out there right now a buddy of mine is having real problems with his ISC its a POS.

Brickman
12-30-2002, 02:26 PM
Mr. Gravel most of the time I agree with what you say. How ever to bash the Cummins as much as you do makes me :dizzy: . The PS is not the junk that a lot of people say, and neither is the Cummins.

Your view of the cummins makes me :laugh: and I have never heard it from any where else. But I guess that is what makes America/Canada great is that we can all have our own opinions and no body else has to agree with us.

I have worked around heavy equipment all my life and Cummins engines are no better than any other brand out there

I agree with you that there will be lemons no matter what brand you look at. At the same time there is no doubt that Cummins is a quality engine builder.

To each his own :drinkup: That is why we have multiple choices for most any thing we want now days.

Randy J
12-30-2002, 05:09 PM
Brickman, as I mentioned in another thread, I think you are very reasonable. You just have a strong bias for Ford, which is ok. The same can be said of Swamprat. It's just Gravel Rat that keeps making himself look, how shall I say kindly..., unintelligent, with his constant bashing of Cummins. If he would bother to take off his rose colored Ford glasses long enough to read, he would notice that I said nothing bad about the Powerstroke and even that it is a good engine, with many examples out on the road. However, the Cummins is used in many different applications, in horsepower ratings up to 335, not the 195 that he quoted.
They're all good engines. I just believe the Cummins is built a little more heavy duty, not that it's necessary in a pickup application.
International is a great medium duty truck, and the DT466 is a great engine also.
On a side note, Brickman, I'm sure you'll be happy to know that I went to look at a '96 Dodge/Cummins stakebed today, with the idea of selling the Ford and buying the Dodge instead. However after looking at the Dodge, I'm keeping this Ford. I bet you're just rolling on that one!:cool:

Randy

odin
12-30-2002, 05:42 PM
I have nothin but praise for the cummings in my pickup. It will pull a mountain and mine at the moment is still stock.You noticed though i said its stock at the moment, it wont be stock to much longer though:D

Gravel Rat
12-30-2002, 10:03 PM
The 335 rating is the marine version that doesn't mean nothing you wouldn't see a Cummins last that long with that high of a rating in marine use.

Anyhow this is supposed tobe a discussion for P/U trucks if you guys south of the boarder didn't have the stupid rule you need a CDL for trucks heavier than 26,000lbs you would realize that the ISB is too small for heavy trucks. The ISC is no better when used in a truck with a 35,000lb gvw if manufacturers offer a better engine like the M-11.

I don't know why Ford guys like Brickman want a Cummins in their truck for a PSD can pull the same amount of weight you know P/U trucks are not designed for pulling heavy trailers.

If you come to B.C. Canada you would be very worried about pulling a 10,000lb plus trailer like in Texas where Randy is from pulling heavy trailers is a piece of cake because its flatter than a table.

It doesn't matter how much power you got under the hood of your P/U truck you aint gonna stop that load with those small brakes. For trailers over 10,000lbs I would even consider pulling it with a 650 or larger truck you want the braking power you ever loose the trailer brakes and you gotta try stop the load with the trucks brakes forget it. If you ever got in a accident here pulling a heavy trailer with a P/U truck the EMTs would have to take the seat out of the truck to get you out because half of it would be sucked up your a***.

GreginAlaska
12-30-2002, 11:22 PM
Hmmm...I've pulled my 18,000 pound hydroseeder all over Alaska with My F350 PSD and and even an F250 PSD and for one summer a 94 F350 turbodiesel. It has electric brakes and I had no problems whatsoever. It ain't exactly flat here either.

Gravel Rat
12-31-2002, 12:21 AM
I guess the DOT doesn't hang around much you would have gotten a nice stay in the local jail if you ever got caught.

Now that the gov't cut back on the DOT budget for B.C. they gave the cops more power so a cop can serve you a notice of inspection if he or she pleases if they suspect something or you piss them off. So if they see your truck is overloaded they can stop you and give you some serious grief they never really could do it before but now they can. Here in B.C. any trailer that weighs over 10,000 pounds you need a CDL to pull it if you don't have the proper class of cdl you will be leaving your trailer on the side of the road and a nice fine in your pocket.

Brickman
12-31-2002, 11:06 AM
First off Randy I am glad to see that you are beginning to see the light where Ford is concerned. :D :D

Gravel the biggest reason I want a Cummins is for fuel economy. My PSD is as strong as an ox. But the miles per gallon leave the pocket empty at times.

As for DOT and CDL "south of the border" the US laws read the same as yours, any person opperating a vehicle grossing over 26K or any trailer RATED for over 10K or any vehicle rated for over 10K and crossing a state line must have a CDL. How ever there is so much traffic on the roads and so many people that have a tandem dually trailer or a tri axle trailer they use on the ranch that the DOT officers don't give them too much hassle unless it looks like they are running commercially then they will get stopped. To say that the DOT laws in general are very :dizzy: :dizzy: :dizzy: :dizzy: :dizzy: would be a gross understatement.

I am grossing over 24K many times hauling cars with my P/U and 4 car trailer. And I keep the brakes up very well on the trailer, all three axles because the truck brakes alone will not stop the rig. Now if you were to carry your same reasoning over to semis and trailers weighing 80K and you suddenly lost the trailer brakes, the tractor brakes WILL NOT stop the trailer either by them selves. So in either case, with a P/U and trailer, or semi and trailer you will be very screwed if you suddenly lost the trailer brakes.

And Gravel Rat have you ever heard of the million mile club for the "light duty" Cummins??? I know the PSD got some that are way up there, but possibly not as many. Think on that before you bash the Cummins into the ground.

Gravel Rat
12-31-2002, 02:07 PM
We don't have that rule that you need a CDL for a truck with a gvw higher than 26,000lbs a regular DL can be used for any 2 axle truck with any gvw. The highest rated single axle is 35,000lb if you got a regular DL you can drive it but most likely you would need a air endorsement.

The Cummins can't get that much better mileage over the PSD then again Dodge trucks are lighter than a equivilant Ford so you may gain something there. Myself I would rather own a MDT truck like a T-300 Kenworth for doing the job you have you got more pulling power and probably get the same mpg.

Myself I have a CDL I'am gonna upgrade to a class 01 (A) right now I can only drive a tandem axle straight truck or pull anysized trailer combination if truck and trailer is hydraulic brakes. Upgrading to a class A is worth it a guy gets more work plus in the work I'am in you gotta beable to pull pup and tag trailers behind gravel trucks.

GreginAlaska
12-31-2002, 10:58 PM
Alaska doesn't throw people in jail for having an overweight trailer or truck, they fine them. In Alaska you are not required to stop at scale if the power unit is rated less than 10000gvwr, doesn't matter how much your trailer is rated for as long as the power unit is less than 10k.

Gravel Rat
01-01-2003, 02:36 AM
Here if the trucks gvw is over 12,125lbs (5500kgs) you have to stop at the scales like my F-Superduty truck is so I have to stop at the brake checks and scales. Its a dollar a kilogram is what the fine is so if your overweight by 1000 kgs (2200lbs) your looking at a 1000 dollar fine :cry:

The worst thing is if the cop serves you a notice of inspection where you have to take your truck and trailer to a designated inspection facility and have the vehical safety inspected. If it doesn't pass you have to get the truck fixed if not it gets a big orange sticker which means condemned. Ohya if you own a brandnew truck your not exempt they will serve you a notice you can't fight it a inspection costs 100 bucks. The insurance company won't give you insurance for the vehical if its got a outstanding inspection order.

Don't you just love all the crap us commercial drivers have to go through they are finally starting to look at non commercial people now which is good they get away with murder.

HOMER
01-03-2003, 10:27 AM
While this is a fun read:) , whatever I buy next will have a manual transmission!

I wonder though..............reckon how that new 5spd auto in the Fords gonna do?????????????