View Full Version : ZTR , A status symbol or A necessity ?
Hi, I have a few questions regarding the ZTR or Z.
Is ZTR a status symbol or a necessity for all of you LCO here? I feel like everyone must have one in order to be called a big boy or "pro." Is it really an integral part of lawn care biz? I operate small service in my area with WB and feel comfortable both physically and financially the way WB has done to me. If my biz grows more in future, I probably end up getting a 48" or 52" hydro WB/sulky not a ZTR, this way saving both money and headaches.
I think the Z is for people who don't feel fit physically and just want to sit all day, I could not imagine myself sitting all day getting fat cutting grass !!! (just kidding, I know we all work hard out there, don't get angry).
Well, having said so, does anyone has some explanation or input, please fire away.
Walkbehinds in the blood.
Best regards,
mtr
What i think or anybody else thinks is a status symbol dont mean jack.
It's what you think and your cilents think .If you are doing a first class job and your cilent's like it and you are makeing money, if i were you i would give jack **** what any body thought was a status symbol.
Now ztr aint just for the unfit im 6/1 210 lb ex airbourne auto worker im in excellent condition,the reason we use ztr's is they are more productive they go faster and get done quicker .
Thats the bottom line for us we cut 212 lawns in 5 days we need to get the most productive machines we can and for us it is mid mount ztr's .I could care less about a status symbol's i care about makeing money and the ztr make a ton for us.
coonman
11-25-2002, 12:44 AM
I think it just depends on what accounts you want to pick up. Like anything else cars, houses and boats some guys probably try to one up the other guy with their equipment. They want to have the biggest and most expensive. That said, I would think if you want to go after big accounts such as malls and parks and churches it would be wise to have a Z. From my personal experience you can make good money with smaller equipment. We have a two man operation with 2 21inch and 1 32inch an edger and 2 trimmers and 2 blowers. We bring in about 700-850 dollars a day and don't have more than about 5k in equipment. We just concentrate on residentials and small commercials, there are plenty out there.
Fantasy Lawns
11-25-2002, 01:09 AM
http://fantasylawns.com/Pond_Feb_2001.jpg
a VERY valid point ...and NO ..... a Z is NOT a status symbol .... fore ...us ....it is a business need ..... which allows us to bid jobs within the market we live in ....gives us the abililty to be competitive ... I could not bid this area (which extends to the right as long as it appears deep) ... the same with a WB
Here in FL ....most jobs are smaller in lot size .... fore the most part many members here are dealing with +1 acre lots ...which is not the "norm" down here ....so on most resi's a WB will do just find ...but when doing larger commercial sites (or larger resi's +1 acre) ...a Z is a MUST
Sooners
11-25-2002, 01:34 AM
MTR, you must still be young and fit. I certainly envy you. However, speaking for those of us that are older and fatter, I prefer to sit. After 40 you start getting things like heel spurs, bad knees, bad backs, etc. Let alone strokes and heart attacks in the hot summer.
A 42" rider would solve that, but those fancy Z's pay for themselves with the right jobs and do it a lot quicker. Can you push mow up to 10 mph? If a push mower can mow consistently at 5 mph (and I doubt it) a ZTR with a 60" deck going 10 mph will do what (6) 21" push mowers can but with one operator. Work out at the gym with the extra money you make with a ZTR.
Also you do pay a higher price up front for commercial ZTR, but they are made to work 8 hours a day 5 days a week all year long.
I hope my spelling and grammer are acceptable.
wriken
11-25-2002, 07:32 AM
Depend on your contracts you have, I have both.
I owned a Z for a while and NEVER felt I bought it for "status". I bought it because I thought I needed it for my properties. Turns out in my case it was overkill so now I use w/b's with a sulky. If you have big, wide open properties I say go for the Z. The nice thing I find with the w/b's and sulky over the Z is I have the "option" to sit or walk, depending on the property and how I feel that day. This is not intended to down Z's, they are great in certain cases.
i kinda understand where mtrs question is coming from. i use to get some, ignore him, looks from folks w ztrs ,before i got one. just people being small. kinda funny to me. when u think about it. their attitudes are just about the silliest thing i know. as to the ztr itself ,i agree with
odin ,its just the most productive system .
Bill Davis
11-25-2002, 09:33 AM
I have both too and I wouldn't give up my Z for the world. Well, maybe I would but it is a great time and energy saver on my big properties and the cut it delivers is second to none.
crazygator
11-25-2002, 09:50 AM
I see most of the larger (I mean huge) LCO's here in town have 75% WB's. Why? ability to access more properties and more area. They do have many guys in their trucks though. Less time to train than a Z, and less money if these guys tear one up.
I think it all depends on where you are, not what you want to look like. If you have larger properties, then a Z might be best. But you could go with a large WB and do just as good, just not as fast. But which ever way, it is your business and no one certain way is always right for everybody.
If you have built a good reputation and do quality work who cares what you use. If the WB's are doing for you what you need, why change? Remember, dont fix it if it aint broke!
Now get back to walking and making that money......:D
Gravely_Man
11-25-2002, 11:48 AM
The answer is that it all boils down to what types of areas you have to mow. Wide-open big spaces can be mowed much more quickly by a ZTR then they can by a walk behind. Another way to look at it is what piece of the market are you going to service and will the ZTR help you to complete your work more quickly or just sit in the trailer?
Gravely_Man
Guido
11-25-2002, 12:16 PM
And head to a 6 acre industrial park.
See how your opinion changes then!
I don't think Z's are for the fat and lazy. I think they're for the productive and smart businessmen in the industry.
I know where your coming from, but like the others say. There's only so much you can get done in a day with a W/B before you burn out.
Its all about need and productivity!
Hope this helps.
Has your opinion changed a little bit now that you've seen some others views on the subject?
mklawnman
11-25-2002, 01:42 PM
Its not a status symbol to have a ZTR, it just means that you need it for big accounts where speed is the key along with quality. Not everyone on this site has a ZTR because some companies only have lawns that too small to use a ZTR on them, it all depends on the size of accounts you have, not a status symbol. ZTR's are much more productive on bigger lots than a WB is. The opposite applies to smaller lots.
My Scag TT is a must for me because of the size of lawns we cut. Yes its a big machine on the trailer and alot of people who see me mowing with it are impressed but i dont see it as a status symbol, just a part of the business.
Matt
Jimbo
11-25-2002, 01:50 PM
Is it a status symbol? I am sure someone out there has bought one because they thought it was cool, and made them look bigger in the eyes of the customer or other LCO's. I really dont think that this would be the norm though.
Like most LCO's my first commercial mower was a WB, and it served me well for quite awhile, but soon I could not get all my properties completed, so I bought a ZTR. Once I made the purchase I found out that I had to get more jobs because I was getting done so much faster. Yes, I wish I could get the same exercise that I did before, but I need more jobs more than the exercise.
Like someone else posted ..... do more jobs, make more money in less time, and go to the gym if you want.
Jim
Randy Scott
11-25-2002, 05:54 PM
Necessity!!!!!!! For me at least. ;)
How sad is that if you buy a lawnmower for status? :(
heres a real Z!
http://photo.msn.s8.com/MS8zLzEwMzgzNjEwMTAvMS80MDE4LzE1NS8zMi9pdWdRdDV0VllkWi01ei0xOGZKVFl3/8f8b75f5c131750e95bea809914e6ed6/clbk=HcZNnT9kkUjVeU2abp*nfTLImqkH6Nycp28kpri5RRroJ1r*DO*8etg!bdYKaHzAfg6M3h*UcpY$/jpg.jpg
1grnlwn
11-25-2002, 06:29 PM
Shoot most of the scrubs around here have ZTR's.
Bassman
11-25-2002, 08:49 PM
MTR... If you are a young buck and feel you are getting the most return per hour of mowing with a w/b, don't change a thing. Personally, I don't care who has what. I have a bottom line figure that I need to make after overhead to make this business work for me. I researched this web site for 6 months before ramping up to go full time into the biz. The consenses was to go with a quality ZTR machine if serious about the endeaver. I have no regrets and my business continues to grow. I don't believe I could have reached the point where I am now with a w/b mower. But I wouldn't know unless I used one from the get go. I know there are many posters on this board who work exclusively with w/b machines, so that must work fine for them. It's an individual thing but I don't think if I went from a ZTR to a w/b my production could stay the same as it is now. As far as sitting all day on a ZTR, I don't agree with that for a minute. There is a lot of physical activity in this game other than sit on a ZTR to mow turf and I'm sure I don't need to list all of it for the guys beside me who use them. I know one very good solo operator, (he is a good man and did superior work), who is getting out of this business after just two years because this past summer was so brutal on him. I personally think his exclusive use of w/b mowers hastened his exit.
joehar
11-25-2002, 10:18 PM
heck man,im super scrub and i got a ztr.
CMLLawnServices
11-25-2002, 11:01 PM
Man that is a sweet 300z, i like the toned down air dam on the front. As for the origanal question it is totally a nessecity, i`ve only been in the buisness for a year fully, and the first mower i bought was a ZTR Just this summer i was out working on one of my ball diamonds and a guy stopped buy and hired me to cut his 4 1/2 archer estate just because he like the look of my mower! definatly get one.
goose
11-26-2002, 04:33 PM
Crazygator , I think one of the main reasons you might see a lot of walkbehinds with the bigger companies is you dont always want all of your crews to get through to fast . Sometimes I will send a walkbehind with a certain crew because with a z they might finish an hour to early, and believe it or not there are some type of labors who get angry and quit if they dont get 40-50 hours . Goose
cantoo
11-26-2002, 08:09 PM
goose, can you explain this better I'm from Canada ;)
I have a wbh but we only use it on rough properties the rest we use the walker or MTD midmount
rodfather
11-26-2002, 09:03 PM
We operate 3 Toro Groundmasters 72" mowing decks
We also operate 2 Ferris 61" WBs
We also operate 2 Ferris 52" Wbs
Last but not least, 2 Ariens 21" WB
I started this business in 1994...I just bought a Ferris Z (IS3000, 61" this Fall)
I did pretty ok with out it...guess the answer to your question is it is up to you...but no...it is not a status symbol by any means
Strawbridge Lawn
11-27-2002, 08:18 PM
A necessity for me.. I am 40 and run a solo biz. My 52 Z-HP is a necessity and not just for physical issues, but for productivity. It is much easier for a 2 man crew to be productive than a solo op. Walk behinds are a great cost effective approach for those ssituations.
If the intent is to be solo, you need to get grass cut quickly, and minimize fatigue. For me, a W/B would fit for gated back yards, but there is a Z34 on the market that costs the same as a hydro W/B so you can see which way I am leaning.
PLUS with a hitch you can tow aerators, leaf vac systems, spreaders, dethatchers and trailers full of mulch with ZTR's. My 21" Honda is always on the teailer if I need it, but the ZTR gives me the ability to do much more as a solo operator.
65hoss
12-01-2002, 11:13 AM
Yep, its status!
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Its brought the status of our customer base up.
Its brought the status of our quality up.
Its brought the status of our services offered up.
Its brought the status of our revenue up.
Its brought the status of our productivity up.
;)
Love Thy Neighbor
12-02-2002, 10:08 PM
I dont have a Ztr. I have a three wheeler 60in Scag and a 48in toro walk behind. I love rolling the scag .gets me done in a hurry and I use the walk behind to do smaller areas. I roll with that one to but I could not do that on a large account.
deason
12-03-2002, 01:39 AM
It is a nessesary tool.
If you dont have one and dont think you can do better with one... better think again.
Just look at the productivity spec on the mowers you are running now. Compare them to your ZTR of choice. Do you see any difference?
Of course so.
Although I am not saying if you have 10 accounts and mow only one day a week you must buy one. The point I am trying to make is that if you have the revenue to justify buying one, you probably need one. With the added productivity, efciency, quality of cut etc, you willl notice an improvement in your business and it's growth. Less time on the lawn means more in your pocket. It also means more time to pick up new accounts that you wouldnt had time for with a W/B. Time is money. ZTRs save time, and make time.
Yes it is status! Because I run 2 Lazer's I have a nice house, a nice truck and I'm not ready to die at the end of every day when I get home. I used to run all walk-behinds and will never go back to that, doesn't make any cents!!!
lawncare3
12-03-2002, 01:36 PM
Shoot most of the scrubs around here have ZTR's.
Damn Scrubs:cry:
Envy Lawn Service
12-03-2002, 08:17 PM
I must say for those juggling this question, there is a lot of good info in this post. It hasn't turned into a whizzing contest yet either.
That surprises me :alien:
I don't give a rat's *** what the other guy thinks when he passes me on the road with his big rig. I spend my time worring about more important things like what my customers think about the quality of my work.
Sure maybe he needs that $30,000 truck and two $10,000 mowers. But for my operation, I don't. Does that make him better than me? NO. Does that mean his profit margin is higher than mine? Not nessisarily.
I think it really comes down to your perception of things. Some people just can't justify the extra money for the purchase in their own minds nomatter how hard they try. Others can't imagine being without one and would gladly pay the extra again.
It also depends on intended use. In some areas I have seen I couldn't imagine using anything more than a small walkbehind while others I wouldn't even attempt without atleast a 60" ZTR.
Speed is another issue alltogether. Again intended use. What does it matter to some folks if a ZTR goes 10 MPH? Don't mean crap if the terrain is so rough you can only stand to go 5 MPH. Or if it's has so many obstacles you rarely average over 5 MPH. There are some Walkbehinds that will do over 8 MPH now.
Lots of things to consider really and to each his own I say....
Good point envy all that matters is what works for you!dont make a tinkers damn what the other guy does.
Doogiegh
12-15-2002, 07:23 PM
How many of you guys went from a small walkbehind (32/36) to a larger walk behind (48/52) and THEN went to a ZTR or did you go right from a small walk behind right to the ZTR?
Maybe you never used the smaller walk behind and just went right to a 60 ZTR, but I think that would be hard to do just starting out if you had no accounts lined up...
turfman59
12-15-2002, 08:09 PM
If you had no mowing accounts but wanted to mow, a ztr would be the smart mans choice. We obviously have a job starting out so time is of the esscence. Starting out in this business is physically demanding after working all day 40 -45 hrs a week for someone else and then get in your truck hook up and go mow for the rest of the afternoon. A ZTR is a must unless your wife has a great job and you can afford to stay home and wait for the phone to jingle.
When I first started researching this business
the posts kept saying, Demo the equipment on the propertys you already are mowing.... In my case it was my own lawn I had no accounts yet...But how the heck can you bid lawns without equipment.... It didnt make sense, so I just said " Buy It" that is a ZTR, whats the worse thing that could happen , I get no accounts and fail and have to sell the mower whats my exposure, Maybe 2k tops ( Big deal ) I lost that with my intel stock in 2 weeks last year... that was supposed to be a great deal by the way at $ 40.00 per share... I am going to quit investing in someone elses company and start investing In my own.... Envy I am with you on the idea of peoples individual perceptions... I think you just want to see a better bottom line or higher gross profit.....but you cant carry a gross to the bank...
I agree turfman, my best investment has been in myself. I have yet to lose $5k in 15 minutes like I did a couple years ago on one stock.
:blob4: :blob4: :blob4:
:blob3: :blob3: :blob3:
Thank you so much guys for chipping in bit by bit for how important to have a Z. I can assure you that, and make no mistake that my next purchase certainly will be Lazer Z Hp 48"/21 or 52"/23 Kaw, either used or new depending on how I am gonna do well or poorly this coming season. I have an unflexible rule that I will buy only I can afford, so got to have enough profit for that Z, it is too much pressure to buy with financing, so I will try to do it in one pay! Good luck, right? That is the goal for me worth fighting for.
Oh, well, riding sulky a couple more years won't be that bad? Do you think? *smiling*
As for Doogiegh question, I am heading for lazer Z HP for good, so my setup will be 21-36-48 or 52.
Cao,
brucec32
02-15-2003, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by MTR
Hi, I have a few questions regarding the ZTR or Z.
Is ZTR a status symbol or a necessity for all of you LCO here? I feel like everyone must have one in order to be called a big boy or "pro." Is it really an integral part of lawn care biz? I operate small service in my area with WB and feel comfortable both physically and financially the way WB has done to me. If my biz grows more in future, I probably end up getting a 48" or 52" hydro WB/sulky not a ZTR, this way saving both money and headaches.
I think the Z is for people who don't feel fit physically and just want to sit all day, I could not imagine myself sitting all day getting fat cutting grass !!! (just kidding, I know we all work hard out there, don't get angry).
Well, having said so, does anyone has some explanation or input, please fire away.
Walkbehinds in the blood.
I also enjoy walking behind a nice wb myself sometimes, but find that quaint feeling goes away in the July heat real fast. I used to think there wasn't that much difference in a ZTR and a wb with sulky too. Till I got a ZTR. Much faster, much easier to mow while backing, much less tiring, and my 48" lazer z hp is probably about twice as productive as your 36" wb. It pays for itself. So why walk?
Best regards,
Barkleymut
02-15-2003, 02:32 PM
I have 2 ZtR's (52 & 60) and 2 WB's (36 & 48) I am solo and I have all of these mowers so I have zero downtime. Also I need to change blades much less frequently and I also have a mower to fit any situation.
AGG Lawn Maintenance
02-15-2003, 02:42 PM
I agree."I think they're for the productive and smart businessmen in the industry." But you bring up a good point. I notice when I throw a mower into my pick up to cut my moms house on a Saturday guys look at me like "you scrub". But when they see me with one of my trailers a Ztr 2 walkbeinds and 3 or 4 guys in the truck they wave. To some imagine is everything. $40,000 truck and all brand new mowers. Not!!! I not saying you shouldn't' care about your imagine.... But I will tell you this, the top guys in my area don't have the newest trucks. I know one guy who has 12 cutting crews and most of his trucks are older. He brings in about 4 Mil a year. You see guys think its cool to have 500 accounts or all brand new stuff. The fact is once your company expands to make payments on 15 trucks isn't a good look. To have 500 accounts when you can make the same money with say 200 high end accounts. Now thats smart business. Some of the Richest people in the world have the tightest budgets. Can I get an
A men. LoLs.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I,ve personally cut about as much grass in the last ten years as anyone on this forum. 7-8 years of running myself and 2-3 other employees at a clip of 70 plus acres per week and 2 years of cutting 143 acres per week using some wide area equipment.
I never had any problems burning calories. If you want to work out, go to the gym. If you want to increase productivity and make more money, be competitve etc., then automate.
You will know you need a ztr because your business needs or wants will dictate.
For my circumstances it is obvious that using a ZTR will make my company more efficient, what I am trying to decide is whether a 48" or a 61" would suit me best. I have 3 yards that I can barely fit a 48" WB through the gate. I need to check the measurments on the ZTR I dont know if it will be wider than the WB. All of the back yards are fairly big, I do have a 36" WB though too. I am almost all residential but my average yard is just under an acre and a 60" deck would help on the wide open grass.
I found a good deal on a 48 Scag Tiger Cub, the 60" of the same model is 1400 more.
For me using a ZTR means productivity.
And saving my old knees for another day. I want to still be able to walk the beach after I retire. :D
Bluesteel
02-15-2003, 07:29 PM
Symbol? Well, it sounds like you’re looking at if from the WB side of the argument. Run a ZTR in your business for a season, or even just a month or so, and see if its still a symbol.
lakegastonla
02-15-2003, 08:20 PM
I have not "walked" behind my walk behind since I got my jungle wheels. Most of the lawns here are 1/2 acre. Take away the footprint of the house, driveway, walkways, and flower beds and you have quite a bit less area to mow. A ztr rider is overkill for the smaller size lots I commonly encounter in my area. On these jobs, a ztr looks like the wrong tool for the job. Like killing a fly with a sledgehammer. I see the scrubs riding em' every day, though. Smaller yards=too many turns/backups/turnarounds for a bigger machine. And yeah, I have used a ztr before. They have their place and can make you some serious money on the right accounts.
tralfaz
02-16-2003, 12:05 AM
I used walkbehinds several years and boy did I run through boots. It is amazing how much more productive a ZTR is. True, I don't lose weight like I used to in the summer, but I'm not worn out like I used to be either. Plus, you can take on more work because they are faster. We only use walkbehinds on steep hills and ditches now.
GCS LawnService
02-16-2003, 12:43 PM
I definitely do not think the ZTR Mowers are defined as a status symbol as much as production. I am currently mowing properties residential and commercial that usually took the property owners approximately (3) three hours to complete before they hired me and I can be out of there in approximately (45) forty five minutes to (1) one hour. If that is lazy I am confused but it seems to fit it the category "Money Talks and Bull Crap Walks" and that's all I have to say about 'dat!
Nothing Runs Like A Green & Yellow Freaking Deere!
:blob2:
deason
02-16-2003, 02:23 PM
originally posted by goose
Sometimes I will send a walkbehind with a certain crew because with a z they might finish an hour to early, and believe it or not there are some type of labors who get angry and quit if they dont get 40-50 hours
Goose, I dont understand that statement.
If your employees and finishing too early and they are not gettting 40 hrs, maybe there are too many employees? I dont think I would want anyone dragging a job out with a less productive piece of equipment just to "get thier hours" Why would you add additional labor costs to your operation like that?
goose
02-16-2003, 03:17 PM
Deason , you are right at what you said about wanting a crew toslack off to make hours .It is hard to answer a question on this site sometimes unless I spend all day writing an answer. Then every answer is taken so literally. Basic every crew I send out is different , But If they go to one side of the city and work 11 hours a day for 3 days I might have to have 5 men on that crew ,Then on Thursday I might have 3 or 4 routes and on one of those routes with a z they might finish in 8 hours , with a walkbehind It might take them 9.5 hours. I will do that . I am not saying 5 crews use walk behinds everyday all season , just where I need it until I fill up another day on another route. I dont always need 10- 15 people cutting grass but there are times I need to take someone from a maintenace crew and put on a landscape crew.
Then the z is used more.
Goose
Jusmowin
02-16-2003, 06:09 PM
In my case I have a 52 in wb and hope to move up to a 52 z because its the simple fact that I as a solo op a z is more productive than a wb for me. When I can mow 6 or 7 yards a day with a wb imangne how many lawns I can mow with a Z?
MOW ED
02-16-2003, 06:29 PM
A Rolls or a Cadillac is a status symbol. A Z does work. It does lots of work efficiently. Do you need a $12,000 mower? I don't know what you have to mow but if you need one to do the job then you buy it.
The status symbol is a vehicle that doesn't do work, its the result of work.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MTR
[B]Hi, I have a few questions regarding the ZTR or Z.
Is ZTR a status symbol or a necessity for all of you LCO here? I feel like everyone must have one in order to be called a big boy or "pro." Is it really an integral part of lawn care biz? I operate small service in my area with WB and feel comfortable both physically and financially the way WB has done to me. If my biz grows more in future, I probably end up getting a 48" or 52" hydro WB/sulky not a ZTR, this way saving both money and headaches.
I think the Z is for people who don't feel fit physically and just want to sit all day, I could not imagine myself sitting all day getting fat cutting grass !!! (just kidding, I know we all work hard out there, don't get angry).
Well, having said so, does anyone has some explanation or input, please fire away.
Walkbehinds in the blood.
Once you use a Z you won't want to use your WB again.Besides i have both and my Z can cut more grass per day = more money.My WB still has its place at the job site when the Z is not needed.
Originally posted by MTR
Hi, I have a few questions regarding the ZTR or Z.
Is ZTR a status symbol or a necessity for all of you LCO here? I feel like everyone must have one in order to be called a big boy or "pro." Is it really an integral part of lawn care biz? I operate small service in my area with WB and feel comfortable both physically and financially the way WB has done to me. If my biz grows more in future, I probably end up getting a 48" or 52" hydro WB/sulky not a ZTR, this way saving both money and headaches.
I think the Z is for people who don't feel fit physically and just want to sit all day, I could not imagine myself sitting all day getting fat cutting grass !!! (just kidding, I know we all work hard out there, don't get angry).
Well, having said so, does anyone has some explanation or input, please fire away.
Walkbehinds in the blood.
Best regards,
cvzimm2
02-17-2003, 12:05 AM
Hey! Seven years in the business, a lot of machines.
I've been on everything from a 20" JD Tri-Cycler to a Toro 455D GroundsMaster [10'-6"], pretty much everything in between.
I just paid a visit to my local Walker dealer. 26HP EFI with 48" and 74" decks. Same price I'd have paid for a WB and a ZTR.
Just food for thought.
Thanks for all the replies, well, obviously someone just digged an old post of me...just to make sure that you all have converted me for good, just to let you know that as soon as my profit margin rear its head real strong after this season, 52" Lazer HP with 23 hp KAW is mine and the WB will be my # 1 backup.
I know what you are all telling on the Z. I am with it all the way.
best regards,
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