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David Gretzmier
02-21-2012, 08:22 PM
I was wondering what if any warm white bi-pins ( path lights, so 360 degrees of light) are out there in 20 watt equivalent ( lets say 200 lumens and up ) that you guys are using. I have tried a few a couple years back, and am looking to do a test on a dozen or so coming up. any thoughts ?

Outdoor Advantage
02-21-2012, 09:21 PM
I think Unique Lighting's LED's are the best in the industry. I am a big unique guy so I may be a little biased.

Illumicare
02-21-2012, 11:07 PM
Hello David. Please take a look at our lineup of miniature omni-directional LED lamps. We offer the industry's only full line of LED miniature lamps; all of which have been specifically designed for use in outdoor / landscape lighting applications.

You can learn more about our BiPin LED lamps here: http://www.illumicaregroup.com/2010/09/led-g5-3-bi-pin/

We offer miniature LED lamps in S8 Wedge, T5 Wedge, G5.3 BiPin, G4 BiPin and SCB configurations.

I think you will find the right product to suit your application.

indylights
02-21-2012, 11:45 PM
Is Unique still selling the LED lamps that come in the box that says "not intended for outdoor use"? One of their sales guy was talking about the LED lamps they sell at a show last year, handed me one in the box, and when I pointed that out to him, his only comment was "I hadn't noticed that before". All I could do was hand him back the box and walk away.

Scott Maloney
Sunflower Landscapes

NightScenes
02-22-2012, 11:13 AM
Is Unique still selling the LED lamps that come in the box that says "not intended for outdoor use"? One of their sales guy was talking about the LED lamps they sell at a show last year, handed me one in the box, and when I pointed that out to him, his only comment was "I hadn't noticed that before". All I could do was hand him back the box and walk away.

Scott Maloney
Sunflower Landscapes

That's funny!

Lite4
02-22-2012, 11:56 AM
Is Unique still selling the LED lamps that come in the box that says "not intended for outdoor use"? One of their sales guy was talking about the LED lamps they sell at a show last year, handed me one in the box, and when I pointed that out to him, his only comment was "I hadn't noticed that before". All I could do was hand him back the box and walk away.

Scott Maloney
Sunflower Landscapes

Ha, that's great!

S&MLL
02-22-2012, 10:14 PM
I was wondering what if any warm white bi-pins ( path lights, so 360 degrees of light) are out there in 20 watt equivalent ( lets say 200 lumens and up ) that you guys are using. I have tried a few a couple years back, and am looking to do a test on a dozen or so coming up. any thoughts ?

I would not say Illumicare is a warm white. But a good retro for minis

Groundfxlandscape
02-23-2012, 08:40 PM
Are you serious Illumicare that is the worse looking LED that I have seen by anyone. I don't know if I would be telling anyone about that thing. I would keep that on the DL. I am a huge Unique guy and I would take a serious look at the new Flex LED retro fits from Unique. Hands down the best LED on the market today, and the pricing is outstanding. The bulb is a 2W 200 Lumen and a CCT (Correlated Color Temperature) rating of 3000K. It has a an L70 of 20,000 hrs. and 2 year warranty. It's rated as if you ran the thing straight for 2 two years 24/7. It realistically should last about 6-8 years. It has a CRI (Color Rendering Index) index of 84 with halogen being the reference at 100. Most LED's have a CRI rating of 75. It has a voltage rating from 10-18V. It has been LM-80 and LM-79 thermally tested which proves that it can thermally manage the heat and run properly. I know I sound like a rep., but I just came off a Home and Garden show where I have pushing the thing for the past ten days. If Unique will stamp their name on the thing than that is good enough for me. Toro sought out the best LED people in the country to put this thing together so it is not been willy nillied together. I will step down from my soap box now, but hopefully that helps. Unique has all the info on their website under the FLEX tab.

indylights
02-23-2012, 09:48 PM
A two year warranty and a 20,000 expected life for an LED seems to be almost not even worth it. That's not much longer life the the halogen lamps I currently use. And just to be clear, I use some Unique fixtures (although not as much as I used to for several reasons) so I'm not anti-Unique. It just seems that when they realized their 24 volt system was pretty much a waste of time, they got kind of lost. On a side note, I am the only one who thinks 3000K is not a warm white?

Scott Maloney
Sunflower Landscapes

Alan B
02-23-2012, 10:49 PM
Groundfx... that's not a nice nor appropriate first sentence for your first post.

Regarding warm white, in the LED world there is such a wide gamut of color temps 2600K-7000K, that the ranges with-in each definition/color description are wider. Warm White for LEDs can range from 2600-3500k or more. With halogen lamps in Landscape Lighting we are used to warm white as 2600-2800 (almost a touch of warm orange/incandescent feels), 3000k a true white (like a GE Constant Color) and anything above 3200 as usually too cold/stark. In LED 3000K is considered warm white because it is so warm compared to the 4000 and 5000+K that LEDs can often come in. If you are looking for what landscape lighters are used to when they say warm white you really need to go down to a 2800K. Warm white really has two different expectations depending on whether you are in the LED industry or halogen/landscape lighting. They are both right, the better description is to use the actually binning temp (i.e. 2800-2900K).

As an example our Infiniti Integrated LED fixtures truly are warm white (2600-2800K) can are even slightly yellower/warmer than most halogens (type look more like a Ushio warm white halogen). Our Infiniti Retrofit LED MR16 Bulbs are warm white (2800-3000k) but look closer to a a GE Constant Color Halogen, so even though its warm white LED, it would be considered a regular white in halogen (it looks just like a halogen). IMHO 3000-3200K and you get a little colder than most are used to.

Lastly, with LED you do get much better lumens the cooler the white, so by making a VERY warm white (2600-2900K) you are reducing the effective lumens you could get if you selected a cooler color temp. For this reason we went with the slightly cooler color temp for the retro bulbs to get more lumens. The integrated LED fixtures have more powerfull heat sinks and drivers so we could get all the lumens we needed and thus accept the lower lumens of a VERY warm white 2600-2800K color.

indylights
02-23-2012, 11:34 PM
Alan,

Thanks for the lengthy explanation. I am decently versed on the technology of LED and the color vs. output battle. I was merely asking a personal opinion of the readers if they consider 3000k warm white, since that is what most (but not all) LED manufacturers list as their warm white color temp.

And David, I agree with SMLL in terms of both his color and quality statements about the Illumicare.

Scott Maloney
Sunflower Landscapes

S&MLL
02-24-2012, 01:31 AM
Are you serious Illumicare that is the worse looking LED that I have seen by anyone. I don't know if I would be telling anyone about that thing. I would keep that on the DL. I am a huge Unique guy and I would take a serious look at the new Flex LED retro fits from Unique. Hands down the best LED on the market today, and the pricing is outstanding. The bulb is a 2W 200 Lumen and a CCT (Correlated Color Temperature) rating of 3000K. It has a an L70 of 20,000 hrs. and 2 year warranty. It's rated as if you ran the thing straight for 2 two years 24/7. It realistically should last about 6-8 years. It has a CRI (Color Rendering Index) index of 84 with halogen being the reference at 100. Most LED's have a CRI rating of 75. It has a voltage rating from 10-18V. It has been LM-80 and LM-79 thermally tested which proves that it can thermally manage the heat and run properly. I know I sound like a rep., but I just came off a Home and Garden show where I have pushing the thing for the past ten days. If Unique will stamp their name on the thing than that is good enough for me. Toro sought out the best LED people in the country to put this thing together so it is not been willy nillied together. I will step down from my soap box now, but hopefully that helps. Unique has all the info on their website under the FLEX tab.

ground fx I'm on my phone so I can not tell how long you have been here. Or where you are from. But I would like to know what makes it the worlds worst led YOU'VE ever seen???

Please let me know so I can go and change out the 400 plus minis I have in the field to unqiues led.
Posted via Mobile Device

Groundfxlandscape
02-24-2012, 02:20 AM
I would like to say that was a slightly harsh comment on my part about the Illumicare LED, but it's my opinion. You don't have to agree, and it's probably a great product. I was only commenting on the looks of the bulb. It is my opinion that it is awkward looking by appearance only. I wasn't attacking the man or the company. It was just my initial reaction just like seeing someone’s ugly baby pictures in the break room. Just warn a man before you spring that on him. It may be the ugly duckling that turns out to be a swan. I'm sorry!

I know that the LED is considered white at 3000K. I also know that it looks great in a Unique fixture, but it's surrounded by a frosted lens. So the appearance may be slightly softened. I believe the reason for the cooler LED was to get greater lumens out of the bulb as stated above. Their other bulbs are a true 2700K, 3000K, 50000k. I have placed the 3000k bi-pen next to a 2700K MR-16 without any problems, and I'm super picky.

I know it's a great product because I have used it. I just wanted to point David in a positive direction. I would love to hear what other great products are out there. So if anyone has tried another great product let’s discuss it. That's why we are all here. I want to use the best and right now I believe that is Unique. I would love for someone to hook me on to something better if it’s out there. I just haven't seen anything better in the way of retro fit bulbs at this time.

Now for the comment on the bulb life I believe they rated it for what they did, because I think they wanted to be realistic on its life. Most bulbs are rated strictly off the LED manufacture specs. A lot of good that does if lighting companies aren’t relating it to heat and the other components of the LED. LED manufactures have been blurring ratings for years. It should feel refreshing that a company is being honest about the rating, and it should last 3-5 times the warranty when you look at actual time running (6-8 hrs. avg. per day). Before you make an opinion one way or the other look up the retail price of the bulb.

People in this forum have a tendency to take things way to personal. People are just stating what they know and have found. No one is saying take my word for gospel. It’s just one man’s opinion and nothing more.

S&MLL
02-24-2012, 02:46 AM
I would like to say that was a slightly harsh comment on my part about the Illumicare LED, but it's my opinion. You don't have to agree, and it's probably a great product. I was only commenting on the looks of the bulb. It is my opinion that it is awkward looking by appearance only. I wasn't attacking the man or the company. It was just my initial reaction just like seeing someoneís ugly baby pictures in the break room. Just warn a man before you spring that on him. It may be the ugly duckling that turns out to be a swan. I'm sorry!

I know that the LED is considered white at 3000K. I also know that it looks great in a Unique fixture, but it's surrounded by a frosted lens. So the appearance may be slightly p. I believe the reason for the cooler LED was to get greater lumens out of the bulb as stated above. Their other bulbs are a true 2700K, 3000K, 50000k. I have placed the 3000k bi-pen next to a 2700K MR-16 without any problems, and I'm super picky.

I know it's a great product because I have used it. I just wanted to point David in a positive direction. I would love to hear what other great products are out there. So if anyone has tried another great product letís discuss it. That's why we are all here. I want to use the best and right now I believe that is Unique. I would love for someone to hook me on to something better if itís out there. I just haven't seen anything better in the way of retro fit bulbs at this time.

Now for the comment on the bulb life I believe they rated it for what they did, because I think they wanted to be realistic on its life. Most bulbs are rated strictly off the LED manufacture specs. A lot of good that does if lighting companies arenít relating it to heat and the other components of the LED. LED manufactures have been blurring ratings for years. It should feel refreshing that a company is being honest about the rating, and it should last 3-5 times the warranty when you look at actual time running (6-8 hrs. avg. per day). Before you make an opinion one way or the other look up the retail price of the bulb.

People in this forum have a tendency to take things way to personal. People are just stating what they know and have found. No one is saying take my word for gospel. Itís just one manís opinion and nothing more.

its just weird that you would maKe such a statement about a whole line of products that you have never used..... Your going off "looks" . I will get a hold of some of the unique led and test them.

As far as the looks of the retro I guess it looks weird. But if people can see my lamps I have a bigger problem then the looks.

Actually the larger bi pin fits in a coppermoon cm895. Which is my go to second story fixture
Posted via Mobile Device

David Gretzmier
02-24-2012, 01:38 PM
So right now we are looking at illumicare's, Landscape lighting worlds, and uniques. anybody have any experience with anything else? I may go ahead and grab a few off ebay just to try, and yes, before you guys go bazonkers, I am aware of all the other guys doing heatsinking, moisture environment, etc, but this is a test. You put them out here and see how they do in real time and I report back.

Steve Atkinson
02-24-2012, 04:48 PM
Hi David,

Please take a look at Brilliance LED. We have a great IP67 1.1w bi-pin. Here is the link: http://www.brillianceled.com/BrillianceBi-PinDataSheetDec2010-2.pdf

I have personally put ours up against a Unique 20w AstroBrite lamp and the clients could not see any difference.

Alan B
02-24-2012, 07:50 PM
Steve,

I like the Brilliance products and that bipin design in particular (for its IP rating and omni direction output). The problem for me was the lumens (85 lumens). To put it in perspective we have a 250 lumen lamp and we equate it to a 20w halogen and a 190 lumen bi pin that we call a 15w equivalent. 85 lumens under any circumstance will not replicate the illumination of a 20w halogen. If the lumens could get over 200, it would be a winner but at 85 I would have a hard time classifying it as a 10 w equivalent.

emby
02-25-2012, 01:01 PM
After reading this complete thread I find it kinda funny that so many of you are actually having a debate on who's product is the best.
As lighting designers, a light source is only a tool in our tool belt and it really depends on what your trying to illuminate that determines what light source you are going to use. Trying to maintain an optimum 3 to 1 ratio throughout your compositions and determining the reflectance of the things that you are trying to illuminate cannot be completed with one lamp or one LED.
Obtaining light samples and testing them yourself is the only way you are going to make an informed decision.
The problem that I have found with the "new" LED source is that you have to do a lot of testing and look at all the information that each and every manufacturer is providing. First of all, most of the specifications and information provided is different with every manufacturer as there is not a current standard that they are following. Some provide lumen output, lumen's, CBCP, temperature colour that is not the same even though two products will say 3000K, but when you put them on a wall one will be more white and the other is more of a pink colour.
Are they engineered for the application of being outside and inside an enclosed fixture as this will certainly determine the life expectancy and your bottom line especially if they start failing early.The worst is that in two years or less, technology is going to change and those products will be replaced with newer more powerful versions. Its going to be a while before this all settles down.
To each his/her own, because at the end of the day its you the designer that needs to artistically create a design that works using the many different light sources that are available and most importantly keeping your clients happy.
I am not happy that in this thread, some manufacturers are comparing their products with others and stating from specifications that one is better or has brighter lumen output than the other. Every manufacturer develops products to provide us with more tools in our tool pouch and its up to us to decide which one works for us and for each of our projects.
I say enough and get out of the habit of comparing LED lamps as being equivalent to a Halogen source because they are not the same in any way.
If you want to do the industry a favor provide us end users with well informed specifications that are done using the same testing standards across the board. Providing the end user with as much information as possible and explaining your specifications as to where your product can be used will be helpful as well. I want to know that it can go in any enclosed fixture, or that it can be submerged. This usually is provided by IP ratings or standards through some type of listing such as UL, or CSA etc.
Just my couple of cents today.
Light it up.

Ken

steveparrott
02-25-2012, 01:30 PM
Interesting to hear about Unique's claim for L70 of 20,000 hrs. Sounds like they are being very honest about what a 20 or 35W equivalent retrofit can do in an enclosed fixture.

This number is in line with what our engineers estimate for all LED MR-16 retrofits considering the extreme high temperatures and poor thermal transfer in enclosed fixtures.

You also have to be concerned with how these high temperatures affect the phosphor coating - increasing color temperature as they age.

High temperatures also reduce lumen output as they heat (this is apart from how the high temps reduce L70).

This is why we believe that for consumers to get the maximum long-term benefits of LED technology they need to invest in solutions where LED's have a good thermal path to the fixture body.

I understand the need for retrofits to replace lamps in existing fixtures, but I hope that as lighting professionals we are encouraging homeowners to replace their fixtures with integrated LED models when a good retrofit solution is not available. And, for new installations, making integrated fixtures the first choice.

For those who want to learn more about our reasoning, I suggest you download our hour-long LED webinar (if you haven't already done so) - just register (http://www.cast-lighting.com/register/) and log in (http://www.cast-lighting.com/login/) through our website and you can download the webinar.

starry night
02-25-2012, 04:01 PM
Steve, I am not finding the LED webinar under "learning" and "webinars."
What might I be doing wrong?

steveparrott
02-25-2012, 05:03 PM
Steve, I am not finding the LED webinar under "learning" and "webinars."
What might I be doing wrong?

Phil you need to first register (http://www.cast-lighting.com/register/) then log in (http://www.cast-lighting.com/login/) - the webinar is password-protected.

You'll find those links in the upper left-hand corner of the website.

starry night
02-25-2012, 05:20 PM
Phil you need to first register (http://www.cast-lighting.com/register/) then log in (http://www.cast-lighting.com/login/) - the webinar is password-protected.

You'll find those links in the upper left-hand corner of the website.

Maybe I need to re-register because I have moved and have a different email address.

steveparrott
02-25-2012, 06:51 PM
Maybe I need to re-register because I have moved and have a different email address.

Yes, you do.

Illumicare
02-26-2012, 08:15 AM
If you want to do the industry a favor provide us end users with well informed specifications that are done using the same testing standards across the board. Providing the end user with as much information as possible and explaining your specifications as to where your product can be used will be helpful as well. I want to know that it can go in any enclosed fixture, or that it can be submerged. This usually is provided by IP ratings or standards through some type of listing such as UL, or CSA etc.
Just my couple of cents today.
Light it up.

Ken

Thanks Ken. At Illumicare we have always provided our customers with all of the specifications and photometrics for our LED lamp products. http://www.illumicaregroup.com/2012/02/2x-led-mr16-lamps/ Is just one example of the level of detailed specifics we provide.

Also we have recently submitted all of our lamp products to a certified independent testing lab so that we can participate in the Lighting Facts label program. If you do not know about Lighting Facts, please check out the program here: http://www.lightingfacts.com/ We believe that the Lighting Facts label program will help to level the playing field and provide customers with most of the information they require to quickly compare and contrast the lamp products from different manufacturers.

We continue to submit all of our lamps to vigorous testing and sampling protocols and stand behind the L70 and performance data that we publish. We are not simply taking performance data from the chip manufacturers and extending it to our lamp products.

In regards to some people's concerns that our miniature LED lamps "look funny", well perhaps to some they do. But they have been designed, tested and field tested to perform splendidly and fit properly. They are still the only full line of miniature led lamps that have been specifically designed for moist environments and enclosed fixtures, come with fully encapsulated drivers and unique heat sinks to properly manage the heat produced from the HO SMD Chips. Available in SCB, S8 Wedge, T5 Wedge, G5.3 and G4 BiPin; with fantastic output, colour rendition and lamp life.

We have heard many requests for a warmer colour temperature for the miniature lamps and are currently in development of a new line that will be 2700K which will more closely emulate the colour temperatures of xenon lamps. We hope to be able to make these available in Spring 2012.

It is possible to create a line of effective, efficient, high output, long life, moisture resistant, thermally managed LED lamps. You just have to take the time and expense to design, engineer and thoroughly test them for the applications in which they will be used.

David Gretzmier
02-28-2012, 10:47 AM
I really appreciate all the responses and information. I will be ordering and placing retrofit bulbs in pahlights and take photos and report back on them from time to time. while I agree that all bulbs-led, incan, xenon or halogen or what, - may serve a purpose for some application, the purpose of my testing will be to see which retrofit works best for a pathlight when comparing it to 20w halogen or 20 watt xenon. next to a 20 watt halogen 60 degree mr-16 bullet bulb, that is my 2nd most common installation. color, brightness, and life of bulb are the major criteria. Feel free to chime in here if you guys have any other bulbs you reccomend for testing.

steveparrott
02-28-2012, 07:29 PM
...Feel free to chime in here if you guys have any other bulbs you reccomend for testing.

David, have you seen CAST's retrofit module for our path lights. Module is secured under hat - direct thermal path through module casting and fixture body and hat - also enclosed in borosilicate glass. Has a beautiful wide beam, brighter than our incandescent version, 2,700K, 60,000 hr. L70. Driver is mounted under module fully encapsulated in thermally conductive epoxy. Also available in turtle-safe amber. 8v to 18v input, surge and spike protection, EMI filtering.

steveparrott
02-28-2012, 07:53 PM
...and life of bulb are the major criteria.

Of course you know you won't be able to test lamp life - nor trust what the mfg. reports (in most cases).

If you're testing MR-16's, be sure to project them on a white board and look for evenness of color across the beam. Be on the lookout for pink or green tints (a sign that the chip is far off the black-body locus - poor binning). Also look at the edges of the beam for brownish color (a sign that chips have low quality phosphor coatings). Also check for evenness of illuminance, some lamps project unwanted hot-spots or striations (signs of poor optics).

If you can, you should check for EMI problems. Set the fixture near a garage and try the garage door opener remote near the fixture.

S&MLL
02-29-2012, 02:52 AM
David, have you seen CAST's retrofit module for our path lights. Module is secured under hat - direct thermal path through module casting and fixture body and hat - also enclosed in borosilicate glass. Has a beautiful wide beam, brighter than our incandescent version, 2,700K, 60,000 hr. L70. Driver is mounted under module fully encapsulated in thermally conductive epoxy. Also available in turtle-safe amber. 8v to 18v input, surge and spike protection, EMI filtering.

Ive seen the module in person. Have also tested one. I just hope the Di electric on the s8 socket last as long as the LED driver

David Gretzmier
02-29-2012, 11:32 AM
Steve- I will be testing bulb life much like I have tested bulb life of mr16 LED retrofits in the past. I put in the retrofit in a brass/bronze fixture, and burn it outside here in Arkansas until it fails. I compare it color wise and by brightness new and over time with a new 20 watt halogen bulb at 11volts. all the LED retrofits that I tested 4 years ago failed completely. If all the ones I test this time around on paths are still perfect after 4 years, that is still a result I think folks will want to hear about. I could be wrong, but I have a strong feeling that won't be the case.

steveparrott
02-29-2012, 11:41 AM
Ive seen the module in person. Have also tested one. I just hope the Di electric on the s8 socket last as long as the LED driver

The grease we (and others) use (Sanchem No-oxID) is well known as for its exceptional long-term stability and corrosion prevention properties.

As for our S8 sockets, even when used with prolonged exposure to the extreme temperatures of halogen lamps, failures are extremely rare.

S&MLL
02-29-2012, 06:21 PM
The grease we (and others) use (Sanchem No-oxID) is well known as for its exceptional long-term stability and corrosion prevention properties.

As for our S8 sockets, even when used with prolonged exposure to the extreme temperatures of halogen lamps, failures are extremely rare.

Your facebook icon isnt working for me. Do I have to be logged on to facebook to view?

Alan B
03-01-2012, 02:39 PM
Steve,
I just wanted to say that I think you add a lot to the forum and that your posts are often packed with quality info. I have not seen your webinar on LED but I am sure it is the same.

Sincerely,

Alan


You also have to be concerned with how these high temperatures affect the phosphor coating - increasing color temperature as they age.

High temperatures also reduce lumen output as they heat (this is apart from how the high temps reduce L70).

This is why we believe that for consumers to get the maximum long-term benefits of LED technology they need to invest in solutions where LED's have a good thermal path to the fixture body.

I understand the need for retrofits to replace lamps in existing fixtures, but I hope that as lighting professionals we are encouraging homeowners to replace their fixtures with integrated LED models when a good retrofit solution is not available. And, for new installations, making integrated fixtures the first choice.

For those who want to learn more about our reasoning, I suggest you download our hour-long LED webinar (if you haven't already done so) - just register (http://www.cast-lighting.com/register/) and log in (http://www.cast-lighting.com/login/) through our website and you can download the webinar.


If you're testing MR-16's, be sure to project them on a white board and look for evenness of color across the beam. Be on the lookout for pink or green tints (a sign that the chip is far off the black-body locus - poor binning). Also look at the edges of the beam for brownish color (a sign that chips have low quality phosphor coatings). Also check for evenness of illuminance, some lamps project unwanted hot-spots or striations (signs of poor optics).

If you can, you should check for EMI problems. Set the fixture near a garage and try the garage door opener remote near the fixture.