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starry night
02-26-2012, 10:10 AM
In the thread on retrofit bi-pins, James of Illumicare refers to Lightingfacts.com.
So I followed the link and discovered that the program was developed and operated by the U.S. Department of Energy.

I know we don't get into politics on this forum but I can't help but comment
about the growth of government. Do we really need the federal government getting involved in the promotion of standards for lighting? At least, so far,
the only thing this lightingfacts program is doing is providing a platform to publicize the performance of lighting. Do we even need that from the government? Spending and more spending of money that the federal government doesn't have.

Forum members: if you don't want to comment on this subject, don't.
Moderators: If you want to move it, go ahead.

But this issue really bothers me.

emby
02-26-2012, 10:40 AM
With this information I am certainly not trying to create any turmoil:

I do not think that this is funded by any US government. After performing a IP Who Is this is the owner of the website.

http://www.drintl.com/about-us.aspx

starry night
02-26-2012, 10:54 AM
With this information I am certainly not trying to create any turmoil:

I do not think that this is funded by any US government. After performing a IP Who Is this is the owner of the website.

http://www.drintl.com/about-us.aspx

Ken, Thanks but all that shows is that the U.S. government is paying someone to do this program. Just the same, money spent that we don't have.

As far as I know, Canada is not many trillions of dollars in debt. :canadaflag: Or are they?

irrig8r
02-26-2012, 02:55 PM
C'mon.... which was a better use of tax dollars, this or a pointless fiasco of a war in Iraq?

Here's a thought: widespread use of energy-efficient luminaires might well reduce our nation's energy consumption and our dependence on foreign oil... thus reducing the chance for stupid wars waged over it.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-26-2012, 09:01 PM
Given the fees charged for testing, certification and participation, I would think that the lighting facts program is largely if not entirely funded by the participating manufacturers.

I think the program is a valid one and certainly addresses many of the concerns that have been voiced here regarding the very confusing process of evaluating and comparing LED lamps. Lighting Facts levels the playing field and requires that lamp manufactures have their products tested and evaluated by independent certified labs, ensuring accuracy and quality reporting of performance

If your lamps are from a company that is not a Lighting Facts participant, you should be asking why.

starry night
02-26-2012, 10:04 PM
James, you didn't need lightingfacts.com to have your lights tested and evaluated. You did it so that you could back up your claims. And those manufacturers that don't have their lights tested and evaluated will not succeed as well as your company.

Lightingfacts is not setting the standards. They merely ask companies to pledge to do testing and then use the proposed label.

I learned many years ago that I could make a sale over the competition by stating all the features of my product. The buyer assumes that if my competitor doesn't mention those features, then the competitor doesn't have those features. Illumicare does well in this respect.

Lightingfacts or no, I will make my purchases from companies that have the features and can back up their claims with performance.

steveparrott
02-27-2012, 05:48 PM
Here's the reason they give for this website and program:

Why was the LED Lighting Facts label developed for solid-state (SSL) lighting?
A: The rapid growth of LEDs has resulted in an increasing number of new products on the market. While many of these products showcase the energy-saving potential and performance attributes of SSL lighting, under-performing products are also appearing in the market. Since bad news travels fast, such products could discourage consumers from accepting this new technology. This occurred when CFLs were introduced, slowing market acceptance of these products. DOE developed the LED Lighting Facts label to avoid this problem for LEDs.

In the past, the DOE did not take sufficient pro-active steps to encourage energy-efficient lighting. They are now an extremely effective agency, promoting standards, testing products, offering incentives, doing massive amounts of education and promotion.

In my opinion, this is one government agency that will actually show a return on investment! I think the most interesting part of their efforts is that most of what they do is not regulation. They are not imposing burdens on manufacturers. Rather, they are creating an educated consumer who will create demand for energy-efficient products that perform as promised.

Manufacturers who produce high quality LED products love the DOE programs!

starry night
02-27-2012, 06:56 PM
Let's theorize. There are some poorly-made LEDs that are purchased by unknowing consumers. They are disappointed and form the opinion that all LEDs are not worthwhile. So are James and Steve going to stop manufacturing their worthy products? And are we contractors going to stop using and promoting the efficient and durable LEDs which are available?

I am a bottom-line kind of guy concerning government expenditures.
Good intentions alone don't count for me. Their are too many well-intended government programs which waste tax dollars because they are not needed or don't work.

Viewpoint
03-09-2012, 07:50 PM
My understanding is that this is a consumer protection issue, related to the DOE's CALiPER program for testing manufacturer claims. It appears that the LightingFacts pledge is a way for the DOE to encourage the companies to make prudent claims, as the CALiPER program cannot test and verify the claim of every product from every manufacturer.

Consumer protection is something I'm fine with my tax dollars being spent on. Especially true with the influx of unregulated product from emerging economies out to capitalize on the green energy zeitgeist in North America. I want to know that someone is researching and testing this stuff so that I don't have to wast my time and money testing every new product's claims. I don't have a lab. I want someone with a shiny white lab coat and expensive equipment to tell me something does what it says it will do. This is also why I buy from trusted lighting manufacturers, and the people who stand behind their product with a bonafide warranty. If something goes wrong, I want to know the guy I have to yell at!

David Gretzmier
03-14-2012, 10:28 AM
I have found that folks who don't like big government cannot be convinced otherwise.

regardless of the facts, folks believe what they want and have the opinions that they want. nearly all folks want clean water to drink, clean air to breathe, safe medicines that work, labels that are correct and fair, cars that are safe, more fuel efficient and pollute less, gas that is inexpensive and pollutes less, workplaces are safe, k-12 education that is free, fire and police that do not charge for "service calls", medical care that is available and affordable, criminals are locked up or executed, streets and interstates are paved and safe, homes are inspected and built safe, and yes, labels on light bulbs that are fair and true.

The problem is, all the the problems above don't get solved by the marketplace. People and factories make stupid choices to save a buck. The government has to step and and make folks play fair. conservatives hate it, will argue it, and vote against it. but they will drink the clean water and breathe the air, drive the cars and enjoy the fruits of the "big government" all day long.

and yes, in the end, the government wil make light bulb and LED's have a label that has relevant info that is true. If not, folks will just lie, build it cheaper and people will believe it and buy it.

starry night
03-14-2012, 10:50 AM
I have found that folks who don't like big government cannot be convinced otherwise.

regardless of the facts, folks believe what they want and have the opinions that they want. nearly all folks want clean water to drink, clean air to breathe, safe medicines that work, labels that are correct and fair, cars that are safe, more fuel efficient and pollute less, gas that is inexpensive and pollutes less, workplaces are safe, k-12 education that is free, fire and police that do not charge for "service calls", medical care that is available and affordable, criminals are locked up or executed, streets and interstates are paved and safe, homes are inspected and built safe, and yes, labels on light bulbs that are fair and true.

The problem is, all the the problems above don't get solved by the marketplace. People and factories make stupid choices to save a buck. The government has to step and and make folks play fair. conservatives hate it, will argue it, and vote against it. but they will drink the clean water and breathe the air, drive the cars and enjoy the fruits of the "big government" all day long.

C'mon David. Conservatives don't argue against having ANY government.
We just argue against government involvement where it is not needed.

and yes, in the end, the government wil make light bulb and LED's have a label that has relevant info that is true. If not, folks will just lie, build it cheaper and people will believe it and buy it.

Why do we need goverment to do this when we have David Gretzmeier
doing all the testing? :)

David Gretzmier
03-16-2012, 02:21 AM
I just do a bit of real world testing here and there. I wish more folks on here did and reported the results. we all would benefit from more info from installers experience with products.

But if you truly believe that conservatives want some government, do the research- check the voting record on all the above items I mentioned. who votes for it and against it?

when you propose a fair label for LED products, you will find that conservatives rarely will vote for it. It places a burden on producers to test and then tell the truth. that hurts all big business except one- the one who typically produces the product with the best label results at the lowest cost. since far more businesses are hurt in this equation, and that is who funds conservative capaigns, you will find them absolutely consistant on voting against anything that requires businesses to do much of anything. sorry, but mostly true. look it up and check.

starry night
03-18-2012, 09:48 AM
[QUOTE=David Gretzmier;4351129]I just do a bit of real world testing here and there. I wish more folks on here did and reported the results. we all would benefit from more info from installers experience with products.
That's it! That's the way conservatives would handle this issue

But if you truly believe that conservatives want some government, do the research- check the voting record on all the above items I mentioned. who votes for it and against it?
You moved the target on me. I prefer to talk about "man-on-the-street" conservatives, like myself. Still, I would argue, concerning much of the voting, that it isn't against education generally(for example) but against excessive spending or taking away local control. But let's conclude this political discussion. It really belongs on the political forum. But I won't go on that forum because those guys argue just for the sake of argument.

when you propose a fair label for LED products, you will find that conservatives rarely will vote for it. It places a burden on producers to test and then tell the truth. that hurts all big business except one- the one who typically produces the product with the best label results at the lowest cost. since far more businesses are hurt in this equation, and that is who funds conservative capaigns, you will find them absolutely consistant on voting against anything that requires businesses to do much of anything. sorry, but mostly true. look it up and check.
Here again, let me suggest the conservative point of view: Let the marketplace rule in this instance. Whether a certain product is effective should not be a concern of government unless the product involves public health or safety. Involving whether LEDs are effective or have quality will eventually get worked out by the market. Does Cast or Illumicare or Brilliance or Volt need to be "forced" to produce a superior LED? No, they are working to produce the best they can because they want to succeed in the marketplace. And they will. In the meantime, if certain consumers want to waste their money by not properly studying what they buy, then so be it.[

Because this is not a forum for politics, I will not reply further, David. But please reply once more yourself. By the way, sorry about having spelled your last name wrong in my previous post.