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View Full Version : EPA, Do not apply if Rain in the next 24 hrs


Ric
03-02-2012, 04:33 PM
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I am posting this in the Florida forum because of our summer rainy season.

The EPA had made changes to all Synthetic Pyrethroid labels (Bifenthrin etc etc) so no application before a predicted rain in the next 24 hrs.

That pretty much means no application from the 2nd weed of June to the 3rd week of Sept. Of course what is the threshold of Predicted Rain Fall in the next 24 hours. 20% 30% 50% 70%???? Just because rain is predicted doesn't mean it will fall in every location or even any location.

IMHO The EPA won't be happy until we all are doing Pest Control with Fly swatters.


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greendoctor
03-02-2012, 06:16 PM
This is why my working policy has been no applications of anything if rain is forecast within the next 24 hours. I would feel quite the idiot if my treatment went down the storm drain. A customer chiseling me by saying:"but it isn't raining right now, why aren't you here?" when we are in the middle of bad weather gets them fired.

jvanvliet
03-02-2012, 07:58 PM
How many fly swatters per acre? :p

Ric
03-02-2012, 08:00 PM
This is why my working policy has been no applications of anything if rain is forecast within the next 24 hours. I would feel quite the idiot if my treatment went down the storm drain. A customer chiseling me by saying:"but it isn't raining right now, why aren't you here?" when we are in the middle of bad weather gets them fired.

Green Doctor

I posted this in the Florida forum for Florida CPO people. We have a every day rainy season that can drop 55 inches of rain in a 3 month period. If we have to wait for No Rain, Chinch bugs etc would be the size of whales. But Thank you for your input.


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fl-landscapes
03-02-2012, 08:03 PM
This is why my working policy has been no applications of anything if rain is forecast within the next 24 hours. I would feel quite the idiot if my treatment went down the storm drain. A customer chiseling me by saying:"but it isn't raining right now, why aren't you here?" when we are in the middle of bad weather gets them fired.

That's a great practice, but the sad truth is the environmentalists would find a way to make regulations anyway. They are anti everything, especially industry and chemicals of any sort. We don't exactly have smog filled skies and glowing green toxic rivers and lakes in this country anymore. Mostly all make believe stories to support their agenda.

phasthound
03-02-2012, 08:46 PM
That's a great practice, but the sad truth is the environmentalists would find a way to make regulations anyway. They are anti everything, especially industry and chemicals of any sort. We don't exactly have smog filled skies and glowing green toxic rivers and lakes in this country anymore. Mostly all make believe stories to support their agenda.

On the one hand I agree that many enviros go over board. OTOH, it is because of the pressure they apply that we now have cleaner air and water. There are still many pollution problems and they are all much cheaper to prevent than to clean up.

Amazing things can be accomplished when people work together rather than blaming each other.

fl-landscapes
03-02-2012, 08:59 PM
On the one hand I agree that many enviros go over board. OTOH, it is because of the pressure they apply that we now have cleaner air and water. There are still many pollution problems and they are all much cheaper to prevent than to clean up.

Amazing things can be accomplished when people work together rather than blaming each other.

Unfortunately working together is a thing of the past I'm afraid. And I agree with everything you said. This economy is struggling in many sectors and I think the EPA is to blame for a lot of it. They do help in many ways but they (like most gov agencies) have become to bloated and become a great hindrance to many industries, often for no rational reason. Now I should probably get off the subject as I did a self imposed banning from the political forum to avoid these issues. Although it seems it would be a reasonable debate with you Barry and not an emotional heated argument like it usually ends up.

bamaturf
03-02-2012, 09:55 PM
i thought biferin needed rain or water to activate so it kills better.
thats what the label says, always read the label and keep a copy of the label
handy is case u forget. the test has ?'s on the label. Doesn't the EPA know
about reading the label ?

Ric
03-02-2012, 10:07 PM
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Slow Dog

In order for a rule or law to be effective it must be accepted or embraced by the People. Case in point is the well disputed Obama Health Care That will surely be over turned if the Republicans win in Nov.

When to EPA change the label they did not take into account the public acceptance of that change. Most Local CPO's I have talked to know of no economical way to follow the 24 hr no rain rule.

Oh Sure I could kill Fire Ants with Arena @ $ 535.00 plus tax and 3 acres of coverage. That is over $ 4.00 per Thousand Sq Ft.


bamaturf

Pyrethroids actually need to dry in order to be effective. Too much Watering in will actually wash it away or down the drain where the EPA doesn't want it. I apply pyrethroids at low rate but 5 gallon of carrier per thousand to have the most effective control and at the least collateral damage.



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fl-landscapes
03-02-2012, 10:11 PM
i thought biferin needed rain or water to activate so it kills better.
thats what the label says, always read the label and keep a copy of the label
handy is case u forget. the test has ?'s on the label. Doesn't the EPA know
about reading the label ?

Label, says irrigate in after being applied if you used less than x amount of carrier recommended. Irrigation can be controlled to put out a specific amount of water and not cause run off or leaching, rain not so much. It's not that it's activated with water so much as certain water volumes are used to get the ai into the area the pests are, which may be thick turf and need up to 10 gal per/k.

fl-landscapes
03-02-2012, 10:16 PM
Ric, making things they don't agree with more expensive is the key to their strategy. Rules for radicals 101. High gas prices = more appealing electric mouse cars. But the electricity that charges the mouse car probably comes from a coal fire power plant, is that less or more pollution than combustion engines?:dizzy: can't ban guns, but they tried to raise taxes on ammo to get the same effect.


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Slow Dog

In order for a rule or law to be effective it must be accepted or embraced by the People. Case in point is the well disputed Obama Health Care That will surely be over turned if the Republicans win in Nov.

When to EPA change the label they did not take into account the public acceptance of that change. Most Local CPO's I have talked to know of no economical way to follow the 24 hr no rain rule.

Oh Sure I could kill Fire Ants with Arena @ $ 535.00 plus tax and 3 acres of coverage. That is over $ 4.00 per Thousand Sq Ft.


bamaturf

Pyrethroids actually need to dry in order to be effective. Too much Watering in will actually wash it away or down the drain where the EPA doesn't want it. I apply pyrethroids at low rate but 5 gallon of carrier per thousand to have the most effective control and at the least collateral damage.



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Ric
03-02-2012, 10:33 PM
Ric, making things they don't agree with more expensive is the key to their strategy. Rules for radicals 101. High gas prices = more appealing electric mouse cars. But the electricity that charges the mouse car probably comes from a coal fire power plant, is that less or more pollution than combustion engines?:dizzy: can't ban guns, but they tried to raise taxes on ammo to get the same effect.

Fl

Don't miss my point that a law must be accepted in order for people to COMPLY TO THAT LAW. IMHO at present time there is no way the big box pesticide company can comply with the 24 hr rule. Their tech are spraying everyday and still having trouble completing their routes.

I only work part time at best and I don't see a way of complying.


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phasthound
03-03-2012, 08:27 AM
Fl

Don't miss my point that a law must be accepted in order for people to COMPLY TO THAT LAW. IMHO at present time there is no way the big box pesticide company can comply with the 24 hr rule. Their tech are spraying everyday and still having trouble completing their routes.

I only work part time at best and I don't see a way of complying.


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I think most of us can agree that the big box pesticide companies first objective is profit and they are not that interested in sound agronomic practices or environmental stewardship. Profit without ethics is one of the reasons for so many regulations.

To be clear, I am totally in favor of profits (don't throw the socialist word at me). I am not in favor of big government. I think that independent businesses are the back bone of America, but the the power of international corporations is overwhelming. I don't believe Americans want no government, they want good government.

Now, let's talk about lawn care. :)

Ric
03-03-2012, 01:37 PM
I think most of us can agree that the big box pesticide companies first objective is profit and they are not that interested in sound agronomic practices or environmental stewardship. Profit without ethics is one of the reasons for so many regulations.

To be clear, I am totally in favor of profits (don't throw the socialist word at me). I am not in favor of big government. I think that independent businesses are the back bone of America, but the the power of international corporations is overwhelming. I don't believe Americans want no government, they want good government.

Now, let's talk about lawn care. :)

Slow Dog

I believe the only thing we have been talking about is Lawn Care. However liberal Tree Hugging Granola politics is seriously effecting how we can do Lawn Care.

The whole reason I started this thread is to talk about Providing not good but Great Lawn Care in light of new label changes. Florida being Semi Tropical has a 3.5 month Rainy season with Rain predicted every day. If you have no solution to our problem, and the fact you don't work or live in Florida etc etc then please don't rock the boat in the Florida Forum. One of the reasons Yankees are disliked in Florida is because they come here acting like they know everything and Florida people know nothing.


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Tri-City Outdoors
03-03-2012, 02:56 PM
Ric, Well stated.

I am no spray guy but I would assume any company that dose a good job will feel the restriction in direct result with the service they provide. If it is truly based on a chance of rain this would make impossible to spray during a large part of peek bug season. Everyday in the rainy season is a 20% chance of rain. LOL

phasthound
03-03-2012, 04:22 PM
Slow Dog

I believe the only thing we have been talking about is Lawn Care. However liberal Tree Hugging Granola politics is seriously effecting how we can do Lawn Care.

The whole reason I started this thread is to talk about Providing not good but Great Lawn Care in light of new label changes. Florida being Semi Tropical has a 3.5 month Rainy season with Rain predicted every day. If you have no solution to our problem, and the fact you don't work or live in Florida etc etc then please don't rock the boat in the Florida Forum. One of the reasons Yankees are disliked in Florida is because they come here acting like they know everything and Florida people know nothing.


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Thank you for your hospitality. :)

jvanvliet
03-03-2012, 04:43 PM
Fl

Don't miss my point that a law must be accepted in order for people to COMPLY TO THAT LAW. IMHO at present time there is no way the big box pesticide company can comply with the 24 hr rule. Their tech are spraying everyday and still having trouble completing their routes.

I only work part time at best and I don't see a way of complying.

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The pest controllers will do a better job at trying to adhere to the new regulations, as difficult as they may seem. Big Box companies are definitely behind the eight ball on this

I agree, the rule is almost impossible to comply with because our weather is so localized in general. I may have rain on my side of the street, but not on the other.

The ridiculous thing about the rule is that they burden the wrong people with it. Homeowners are the worst offenders and contribute the most to excess application, run off and contamination. Professionals (at least most) are judicious in their applications.

Just another way for the government to put the wood to the little guy.

jvanvliet
03-03-2012, 04:45 PM
Thank you for your hospitality. :)

Cmon back Dawg, not all of us bite.

Tri-City Outdoors
03-03-2012, 05:41 PM
The homeowners are the worst offenders and contribute the most to excess application, run off and contamination.

Had an HO today ,across from the palm guy, ask me if he puts down double the weed & feed and with the heavy rain tonight. Would it fix his lawn. I just smiled. Told him to return the weed and feed since the label is the law and clearly intends to violate it and referred him to a spray guy. Gave him a guesstimate of about 2k replace his dead SA from cinch bugs last summer.

Tri-City Outdoors
03-03-2012, 05:46 PM
In review of my post. The little community amazes me every year almost every yard gets a cinch problem. Really I love it. The big box squirt guys offer sod replacement guarantees but yet we do sod patch jobs every year.

greendoctor
03-03-2012, 06:25 PM
The pest controllers will do a better job at trying to adhere to the new regulations, as difficult as they may seem. Big Box companies are definitely behind the eight ball on this

I agree, the rule is almost impossible to comply with because our weather is so localized in general. I may have rain on my side of the street, but not on the other.

The ridiculous thing about the rule is that they burden the wrong people with it. Homeowners are the worst offenders and contribute the most to excess application, run off and contamination. Professionals (at least most) are judicious in their applications.

Just another way for the government to put the wood to the little guy.

I am waiting to see pyrethroids either removed from the shelves in hardware stores or their labels revised to reflect the same restrictions placed on Pro's. Including the one concerning no broadcast applications to outdoor hard surfaces that are open to weather. It is not impossible to imagine homeowners hosing down walkways and patios with pyrethroids just because they saw an ant. That would actually cut down substantially on the bifenthrin running off into surface waters. The most illogical thing is to have an AI designated as "for sale to, storage by and use by professional applicators only", yet the same material in a different concentration and package is for sale to people who will not obey the labels no questions asked. It did shock me to see "thrins" sold over the counter 20 years ago because I knew they were federal RUP if sold for crop use. As long as these products are sold over the counter, the pollution problem will continue until they are banned. At that time, the call will be for a total ban on turf and pest control use.

Another thought: Would usage of a resin or polymer sticker(Latron B1956) help keep AI's on treated surfaces even if they are exposed to rain?

jvanvliet
03-03-2012, 08:21 PM
I am waiting to see pyrethroids either removed from the shelves in hardware stores or their labels revised to reflect the same restrictions placed on Pro's. Including the one concerning no broadcast applications to outdoor hard surfaces that are open to weather. It is not impossible to imagine homeowners hosing down walkways and patios with pyrethroids just because they saw an ant. That would actually cut down substantially on the bifenthrin running off into surface waters.


Chemicals ought to be removed from hardware stores including ferts. I see people pouring ferts on their turf lawns monthly @ 2 or 3 or even more X the recomended rates. Sometimes they will burn, but usually they water to rival Noah's flood and wash most of it down the road.

Changing the label makes no difference, not to the homeowner. I get e-mail alerts when there is a change to the label, the HO doesn't care. His attidude is; if one is good, 10 is better. I doubt he reads beyond how much to put down.

greendoctor
03-03-2012, 08:43 PM
Who says they even read that? Most homeowners I have met are lost on the concept of a quantity of product per area. Something like a bifenthrin or imidacloprid granule can be severely overdosed with no consequence to the lawn, but with horrible results to the environment. Do that before a heavy rain and expect to seed floating fish or no more crab and shrimp. My favorite question is if the homeowner can buy the kind of fertilizers I use. Sure, but they do not go through a fertilizer spreader.