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suzook
04-05-2012, 09:43 AM
I have a persistent customer looking for me to establish a new 70% blue 30% rye lawn in his yard. I have been trying to convince him to wait a few more weeks, but he is insists he wants it done this weekend. I told him I wouldn't guarantee it would come up as well as it should this early. I am putting down a good starter, siduran and he will irragate 3 times a day. Any other suggestions to get this lawn to come up ? Thanks

Smallaxe
04-05-2012, 10:49 AM
We were just discussing the success rate of Spring seeding... the earliness of putting down seed isn't going to have a bad effect on germination when ever the situation is right for germination...
Absolutely no problem with seeding now... 3 times a day with the water, this time of year could be an issue however...

suzook
04-05-2012, 10:59 AM
We were just discussing the success rate of Spring seeding... the earliness of putting down seed isn't going to have a bad effect on germination when ever the situation is right for germination...
Absolutely no problem with seeding now... 3 times a day with the water, this time of year could be an issue however...

My major concern is not the rate of germination, but a hard freeze, and or frost killing the new seeds/sprouts. Any thoughts?
Btw...I will program his irragation for 3 times a day.

Smallaxe
04-05-2012, 11:42 AM
My major concern is not the rate of germination, but a hard freeze, and or frost killing the new seeds/sprouts. Any thoughts?
Btw...I will program his irragation for 3 times a day.

Once the ground is warm enough to germinate, it would take quite a while for it to freeze solid again and kill KBG/rye... Cool season grasses will continue to grow and thrive right up until the ground feezes in winter... We had no browning at all this season, so don't worry about dieing sprouts...

this time of year and irrigation 3 times a day can easily be too much water for good germination... if it is real sandy, then maybe... but even in sand with any amount of OM is going to become too anaerobic at the surface where the seed is sitting... 3 times a day is for when it is hot and in full sun... not early April...

Just remember, that your client is 100% correct so far, so work with him and forget what you think you know about seeding... :)

suzook
04-07-2012, 09:51 AM
Well.... I went ahead and regraded with new topsoil, added starter fert, added tupersan, and put down a nice kbb/rye mix yesterday. I set his irrigation to come on 3 times a day for 10 mins. I'm expecting the rye to come up first(obviously) and hoping the kbb follows not to far behind. Its a 70 kbb 30rye mix from a local sod farm(delailo) so I'm expecting a high germination rate. I will keep this post updated as to my earliest seeding job to date....keeping my fingers crossed....temps the next 2 weeks expected to be at about 60 during the day, and low 40's at night.

RigglePLC
04-07-2012, 09:03 PM
I think you are on the right track, Suzook. Remember it will be slow, due to cool night temperatures. Allow 14 days, before it is a half-inch tall. Frost will not damage new grass. One problem I see...rye grass is aggressive as a seedling...it may crowd out the KBG, with the result you get mainly a ryegrass lawn. It will look OK--provided you used good seed and it is disease resistant.
Keep an eye on the water--if it gets too wet--cut back a bit. You need less water when it is cool--as compared to hot weather. Rain can happen of course.

Since siduron does not last long, plan to treat with Dimension after the grass has been mowed twice--say late May.

suzook
04-15-2012, 08:28 AM
I think you are on the right track, Suzook. Remember it will be slow, due to cool night temperatures. Allow 14 days, before it is a half-inch tall. Frost will not damage new grass. One problem I see...rye grass is aggressive as a seedling...it may crowd out the KBG, with the result you get mainly a ryegrass lawn. It will look OK--provided you used good seed and it is disease resistant.
Keep an eye on the water--if it gets too wet--cut back a bit. You need less water when it is cool--as compared to hot weather. Rain can happen of course.

Since siduron does not last long, plan to treat with Dimension after the grass has been mowed twice--say late May.

7 days later, and I see little sprouts already. I'm guessing its the rye. Btw....extremely dry up here, been watering twice a day for 5 min intervals to keep soil and seed moist. Only issue I see when I stop by, are the damn birds eating the seed!

RigglePLC
04-15-2012, 10:14 AM
Way to go, Suzook. You are doing it right. You used plenty of seed so the birds will be only a minor problem, right?

If you didn't use starter fert, do it now; it really speeds up the thickening of the new grass. Do a second feeding at about 30 days after seeding, 23-0-8 for example.

The birds are eating the surface seed which is not buried, it wouldn't have germinated anyway--I like to think. And hopefully birds are eating worms and grubs.

suzook
04-17-2012, 01:32 PM
Day 12, and half inch sprouts everywhere. Some areas that don't get much irragation are still bare. The 90 degree day yesterday really helped. Looking good so far, but still no precip up here. When will the damn rain come?.

suzook
04-18-2012, 07:46 PM
Another update..grass is coming in nice...except its spotty...a lot of bare spots. I'm guessing this is the KB still not coming up yet? Any thoughts?

RigglePLC
04-18-2012, 08:39 PM
Some areas maybe the seed was not deep enough--some areas buried too deep. and...you said some areas didn't get enough irrigation. Keep the water coming and reseed in two weeks as needed for bare spots. Add fertilizer at 30 days and 60 days. Kill weeds after second mowing, crabgrass, too.

suzook
04-20-2012, 04:06 PM
Well most of the bare spots are sprouting, guessing it was the KB and or not enough water. Rain finally coming Sunday! Im expecting a nice shot with the natural precip. I hate to admit it, but I'm convinced of seeding extremely early in the season. Gonna hit it with more tupersan and fert at the 4 week mark, then put dimension after another 4 weeks to help keep the cg out.

Smallaxe
04-20-2012, 06:22 PM
The Earlier, the better... :)

suzook
05-05-2012, 10:22 AM
Another update....This is the LAST early spring seeding I do. I will only seed in the fall. The lawn looks terrible, it basically looks like it did 3 weeks ago. Bare patches all over. I over seeded, but there are some weeds coming up already. A big fail, and I will have to renovate it again in the fall.

Smallaxe
05-05-2012, 04:47 PM
Another update....This is the LAST early spring seeding I do. I will only seed in the fall. The lawn looks terrible, it basically looks like it did 3 weeks ago. Bare patches all over. I over seeded, but there are some weeds coming up already. A big fail, and I will have to renovate it again in the fall.

Lawncare is never a Once for All episode... If you had not seeded this Spring, what would you have instead??

You can spray the weeds and overseed those spots all Summer long... by Fall you should have an opportunity to finish it off easily...

Smallaxe
05-05-2012, 04:51 PM
A lot of learning occurs with trial and error, research, experience and practice, practice , practice... :)

suzook
05-06-2012, 08:27 AM
Lawncare is never a Once for All episode... If you had not seeded this Spring, what would you have instead??

You can spray the weeds and overseed those spots all Summer long... by Fall you should have an opportunity to finish it off easily...

I wanted to leave his existing mess of a lawn, and regrade and reseed in the fall. So my concern now is keeping the weeds and crabgrass under control, especially in the thin/bare spots. How do I kill the weeds, AND over seed those areas at the same time?? I don't know of a product that will let me do that. Any suggestions? This is my first spring seeding, and would appreciate some tips to get through this without spending too much time and $. Thanks.

RigglePLC
05-06-2012, 02:41 PM
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=herbicide%20quicksilver%20on%20new%20seed&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CGcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fmcprosolutions.com%2FPortals%2Fpest%2FContent%2FDocs%2FLabels%2FQuickSilver%25 20T_O%2520Herbicide%2520Moss%2520Control%2520Supplemental%2520Label%252010-06-C.pdf&ei=lcKmT7m4H831ggeL9eXhAQ&usg=AFQjCNHN2_vklpuWWcVfx07pT1rzoLgqyw&cad=rja

http://natseed.com/chemicals.htm

Drive is safe on most newly seeded grass.
Quicksilver is safe 7 days after emergence.

In my experiments Lesco Eliminate was safe when new grass was 2 inches tall.
Dimension was also safe at two inches tall.
It should be easy to clear up the weed situation. Expect a few new weeds by late summer. Start now, add plenty of fert and water--when weather is warm it will grow fast and fill in more each month.

Be sure to mow when grass reaches 2 inches tall, as this will reduce rye grass and allow more light to hit the slow-germinating bluegrass. Shorter cut will cause the grass to spread sideways more vigorously.

Smallaxe
05-07-2012, 08:53 AM
I wanted to leave his existing mess of a lawn, and regrade and reseed in the fall. So my concern now is keeping the weeds and crabgrass under control, especially in the thin/bare spots. How do I kill the weeds, AND over seed those areas at the same time?? I don't know of a product that will let me do that. Any suggestions? This is my first spring seeding, and would appreciate some tips to get through this without spending too much time and $. Thanks.

Spot spray the broadleaf and roundup the CG(if necessary) and put down some more seed... if it is bad enough, slit seed the yard again...

Remember it was the H.O. that made the request, in fact insisted and you did tell him that it may be a hassle,,, correct??? you are not competing with sod and the client had better undersatand that, going in...

My Spring overseed did not come in real thick this year either, although the dormant seeding was about as perfect as possible...
Once the new seedlings reach mowing height, I'll have killed the broadleaf(spot spraying) then fill in with seed, mulch mow over the top of it... At this point with the way the weather has been, I'm not convinced that every seed has germinated yet, so I'll just wait and see, b4 I do too much...

The H.O. needs to understand that "A Perfect Lawn" starts in the Fall, not in the Spring... you simply Spin it , "That in spite of his error in judgement, it is coming along pretty good!" Anyone who is so impatient, that he can't wait for grass to grow and recognise that weeds come in the Spring, I would certainly reconsider working for...

Remember too, that when you start later in the Spring you take a real chance that CG will come up with the good seed and you'd be investing in some pretty expensive Pre-M in order to do the job...

suzook
05-07-2012, 08:56 AM
I guess I will just try and keep the weeds at bay, no seed till late August. I'm thinking by then I will top dress with some topsoil and seed again. I should have went with my gut and waited till late summer. It is what it is, customer is OK with it, especially since he "pushed" me into doing it now. Thanks for the tips.

Smallaxe
05-07-2012, 09:30 AM
It will cost less to overseed with compost covering, a little bit at a time throughout the season, than to do a topdressing overseeding all at once at the end... of course, it all depends on how your business is setup...

I remember years ago I was told by one of my best clients to 'overseed' every dull area on all the properties he controlled, throughout the entire summer... I raked in the topsoil to level off the lowspots, raked in the seed, soaked down the area and let it be handled by the irrigation...
We skipped one or two mowings, but it was ready to run over, before the old grass got to be too tall...

it was a great learning experience, and that was when I decided to do my best to make every client request a reality... :)

suzook
05-27-2012, 10:08 AM
Another update. Lawn looks really good. Very thick in most spots, but still some thin/bare spots mixed in. I see some baby cg popping up in the area that gets full sun. I'm surprised at this since I have applied tupersan twice. I think I will apply some dimension, hope it kills the single tiiller cg. I'm concerned it will hurt the existing new lawn. Thoughts? Homeowner along with I are quite pleased at the current lawn, but now I'm concerned with cg taking over. Not sure why the tupersan didn't work as good as I would have liked.

RigglePLC
05-27-2012, 04:34 PM
Tupersan only lasts about a month--still it should have helped your situation. Now is a good time to apply Drive--kills crabgrass and some types of weeds. Yes, I think Dimension should be a help. Wait until the second mowing. In my tests it was OK after the new grass was 2 inches tall. However you could still have a few sprouts of slow bluegrass trying to get established.

suzook
05-27-2012, 07:27 PM
Tupersan only lasts about a month--still it should have helped your situation. Now is a good time to apply Drive--kills crabgrass and some types of weeds. Yes, I think Dimension should be a help. Wait until the second mowing. In my tests it was OK after the new grass was 2 inches tall. However you could still have a few sprouts of slow bluegrass trying to get established.

Yea, that's my dilemma. Kill any bluegrass that is still waiting to come up, or eliminate crabgrass, and have some thin/bare spots until late august when I reseed? I hate the idea of killing any possible new grass from coming up, but cg will probably do more damage.

suzook
05-29-2012, 04:52 PM
I decided to apply dimension. Customer will deal with the thin/bare spots for the summer. A lil seeding in fall will get the lawn perfect. Customer, and I am quite happy with the results. Not sure I will get involved in a spring seeding again though.BTW....Lawn is probably 70% rye, and 30% blue, I'm guessing due to the cold spring temps. Looks quite nice though.

RigglePLC
05-29-2012, 09:30 PM
Good going, Zook! I hope the Dimension kills the crabgrass and prevents further crabgrass. Keep us up to date.
Dimension did work in my test using potted crabgrass plants--not 100 percent.I started a new test with Dimension and crabgrass grown from seed last week--no results yet.

Smallaxe
05-30-2012, 07:11 AM
I decided to apply dimension. Customer will deal with the thin/bare spots for the summer. A lil seeding in fall will get the lawn perfect. Customer, and I am quite happy with the results. Not sure I will get involved in a spring seeding again though.BTW....Lawn is probably 70% rye, and 30% blue, I'm guessing due to the cold spring temps. Looks quite nice though.

If a customer comes up at the last minute and wants to do seeding in the Spring, you are going to tell him to wait till Fall???

The only reason you had so much stress and anxiety is because you put the doubt on yourself... but otherwise the entire process went splendidly...

I apprecieate you reporting back to the end, so that it becomes a learning experience for all of us...
Spring seeding is not the ideal, but it beats the alternative, and any professional can make it happen... :)

suzook
05-30-2012, 08:04 AM
If a customer comes up at the last minute and wants to do seeding in the Spring, you are going to tell him to wait till Fall???

The only reason you had so much stress and anxiety is because you put the doubt on yourself... but otherwise the entire process went splendidly...

I apprecieate you reporting back to the end, so that it becomes a learning experience for all of us...
Spring seeding is not the ideal, but it beats the alternative, and any professional can make it happen... :)

Very true. Why turn $ away? It has been a learning experience, and the lawn is looking pretty damn good. Next time I know what to expect, and just deal with it. Its nature after all.

suzook
06-07-2012, 09:49 AM
Just mowed the lawn today, but noticed some yellowing of grass in some spots, with stunted growth. Will this grass die? Or is it just stressed from the dimension??

Smallaxe
06-08-2012, 07:42 AM
Not sure how the weather has been across the upper tier of states, but here we have already experienced some heat stress, and its gonna get hotter... no more 'cides or ferts from me and mowing will be high or not at all...

If it becomes a big concern, topdressing with compost can only help... I hope your Dimension doesn't kill it...

suzook
06-08-2012, 07:57 AM
Not sure how the weather has been across the upper tier of states, but here we have already experienced some heat stress, and its gonna get hotter... no more 'cides or ferts from me and mowing will be high or not at all...

If it becomes a big concern, topdressing with compost can only help... I hope your Dimension doesn't kill it...

Actually its been cooler/wetter than normal. I hit it with a light dose of fert after I mowed. Customer called this morn and said it looks much better, fabulous was the actual words used:dancing:I think I might have to do a soil test, see if its lacking something. I'm guessing it was just stressed from the dimension.

Smallaxe
06-08-2012, 08:34 AM
Cool... :)

suzook
06-09-2012, 03:22 PM
Here are some before/during and after pix
http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/5638/img20120405165607.jpg
http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/2458/img20120405165555.jpg
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/3518/img20120506162228.jpg
http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/2442/img20120506162242.jpghttp://img607.imageshack.us/img607/4409/20120608132458.jpg
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/1613/20120608132507.jpg

Smallaxe
06-10-2012, 08:51 AM
I'd call that a successful Spring planting, and it looks strong enough to stand against the heat of summer... after it overcomes the effects of root-inhibitor... :)