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Bluesteel
12-18-2002, 01:50 PM
I’m pretty new to the lawn care business, and just read a post about someone wanting to start a union in their area to keep lawn service prices from falling. I’ve been a member of 4 different unions and am totally against them as a result. Never the less, something I’ve been considering lately is the effect of illegal immigrants on our business.

Genetic traits are next to invisible to me, but cultural differences aren’t. I’ve heard of astonishing numbers of people sneaking into to our country doing the jobs “nobody wants to do.” If they’re willing to live with 5 room-mates to one apartment and eat rice and beans every day, they’re not just lowering prices, but our standard of living as well.

One local guy (of questionable citizenship) advertises $20 for any lawn up to an acre! And his work looks just as bad as you could imagine. I have no problem with that price. If his customers are that cheap, most of us would never work for them anyway. Those guys come and go. Besides, he’s showing a lack of business sense and will never be able to make enough money to last. But if he’s not here legally, then *$## yes I have a problem with that price.

Everyone’s got a sob-story; poor immigrants, customers on a fixed income, etc. etc. If someone wants to give price breaks to selected customers, fine. All I’m talking about is fair competition and enforcement of the law. I’m wondering what would be an effective way to make it difficult for illegal immigrants.

More government is a bad thing. But should all LCO’s be licensed to prove citizenship? No fee, just proof that you’re legal. That way, if you suspect a crew is not competing fairly, you could find out where they operate out of, and send and enforcement officer to check.

Suggestions? (Please, Scabs are another topic. So I’d appreciate sticking to the problem of illegal immigrants in this post).

LAWNGODFATHER
12-18-2002, 02:32 PM
Key word Illegal.

Illegal also mean an Illegal business.

Make some phone calls they will be gone just as fast as you hang up the phone.

Union's a baaaaaaaad word, it was one of the demises of our great nation. It caused substantial inflation.

Regulating something costs money.

Whether it is free or whom ragulates it, you will still have the scrubs. You will only make it harder on yourself.

Evan528
12-18-2002, 03:27 PM
In my area a good 90% of landscapers you see working have hispanic labor. Many if them are illeagal. I have no problem at all with it though. They do not pull down prices at all...In fact they raise them here! The mexicans in my area will not even work for less than 10 dollars and hour to start and 15 dollar with experience. These guys produce twice the amount of work per hour then a good majority of americans I have seen working. From what ive read on this board it diffrent in other areas......here I dont think ive ever seen a mexican business owner. I respect the fact that these guys are willing o leave there entire family for years at a time in another country to come here and live wih 5 other guys were room and work 15 hours a day! I think most of the landscape companys around here would have gone out of business years ago from lack of labor if it werent for them!

AztlanLC
12-18-2002, 05:32 PM
I’m wondering what would be an effective way to make it difficult for illegal immigrants.

It can not be more difficult for them to leave their family, work their asses all day, not able to get a driver license, pay SS and other taxes that they will never see a penny out of, deal with racist people like yourself.

I'm a mexican and I do own a business, it took me 12 hard working year to be where I'm, You think it's hard to compete with scrubs? well let me tell you for me that was the easy part, it was more difficult to deal with people that thinks just because you are a mexican you shouldn't be allow to make $60 an hour.

Yes when I got to this country I came as a illegal, I had to take jobs that nobody wanted, I washed dishes, mop floors, you name it, I didn't came down here to collect welfare, I've had paid taxes since the day I set foot in this country, I worked 6 years as illegal paying SS, and other taxes that I'm never be able to get back, I was allow to make my income tax at the end of the year, payback it not enough were witheld but never get my money back if overpaid, not even able to claim dependents even tought I had 2 back in mexico, forget about unemployment at the end of the season.

That's pretty much the story of every mexican or any other foreing immigrant, lots of people don't want us here but nobody wants to wash their dishes,

One local guy (of questionable citizenship) advertises $20 for any lawn up to an acre! And his work looks just as bad as you could imagine. I have no problem with that price. If his customers are that cheap, most of us would never work for them anyway. Those guys come and go. Besides, he’s showing a lack of business sense and will never be able to make enough money to last. But if he’s not here legally, then *$## yes I have a problem with that price.

Just because he has a foreing look doesn't mean he's not here legally, You all (racist) star complaining when you see a mexican running a business, wearing a tie, etc. as long as they stay back in the kitchen tha't ok for you.

This country was formed of immigrants, just cause it happened long time ago doesn't mean it didn't

Richard Martin
12-18-2002, 06:13 PM
Bluesteel wrote:

But should all LCO’s be licensed to prove citizenship? No fee, just proof that you’re legal. That way, if you suspect a crew is not competing fairly, you could find out where they operate out of, and send and enforcement officer to check.

It won't work and I'll tell you why. Just who is supposed to enforce these new laws? They don't enforce the laws we have now. I don't know about where you live but when we hire someone here there are some forms we must fill out. One of them requires us to verify that a employee is either a US citizen (by checking for a valid ss card) or they are in this country legally via a green card.

The point is the same people who are supposed to be making sure employers follow the current laws would probably be the same people who would enforce any new laws aimed at illegal immigrants. These laws are enforced on a federal level and not locally. Local authorities can only inform the federal authorities when they find a problem.

Mueller Landscape Inc
12-18-2002, 06:31 PM
Red is red and blue is blue. Being illegal is "being illegal" period. It is against the law. It has nothing to do with RACE.

Playing the "race card" proves that YOU are the racist in my book. I know from experience that illegal labor brings wages down. I live and work in San Diego. We have hundreds of illegals crossing the border everyday. Does that mean that I don't like Hispanics? NO, I have employed many of them through the years and all had the proper paperwork. Most of them are great workers and I have Americans who are great workers too. Most people judge by character.

By the way, I can't fault the Hispanics for coming here illegally. Their Country has low jobs and their Government is corrupt. They are simply trying to make a better life for themselves and their families in Mexico. In their shoes, I would do the same thing. But comming here illegally is still against the law. And being upset about what that does to our local economies is justified. But calling someone a "Racist" for pointing to the problem is childish and stupid.

DLS1
12-18-2002, 06:42 PM
Hey AztlanLC, how did you get a social secuirty card to pay taxes if you are illegal? I have no problem with people coming into the country the legal way. I guarantee you if there was not enough people to wash dishes then the pay for dish washing will go up. Basic economics of supply and demand.

Why do you call people racist because they want to keep out illegal aliens which are breaking the law for being in this country?

So does that means anyone who breaks the law (i.e. stealing, getting a ticket for speeding,etc.) in the USA can call someone a racist who reports his crime.

Your right people do look at Mexicans as illegal aliens alot of the times when you seen Mexicans doing lawn work,etc. Everyone knows the USA government does a poor job of enforcing the borders and there are feel good organizations in the US that actually harbor illegal aliens by housing,feeding,etc. until they can become legal citizens somehow. Bush even proposed to make most illegal aliens legal but backed off as soon as the economy turned sour. I have nothing against Mexicans or any other race but we are talking about breaking the law which is a crime and people are tired of the government not caring much.

Just to clarify I am not a racist.

awm
12-18-2002, 07:01 PM
i have sympathy for the illegals.
im sure its tough. the us has probably given more in forighn aid than any country in history.but the mills are closing here and movin to mexico and other cheap labor countries.this great breadbasket wont stand unless the imigration problem is solved. i ask any mexican to be honest an say whether their allegance is to mexico or this country.if u are honest u will say mexico.

Envy Lawn Service
12-18-2002, 07:26 PM
This is hard to comment on because it goes several ways. I can blame people for wanting to come to tis country to make a better life for themselves. But there are so many that just come here to take advantage of our system alltogether. But then again our government and we as people stand around and take it. Also a very lazy generation has hit the workforce. Some of which wouldn't breath if it didn't come natural. So sometimes a company has to hire immigrants to find someone who is willing to work and sweat a little or do jobs americans don't want.

So to me the bottom line is that some people have to stop being so dang lazy and work hard for a good wage. Also if wages were raised on some crap jobs more of us would be willing to do them.

So yes immigrants do hurt wages period. If they are willing to work for less how can it not? So that's what I have a problem with. I could care less where someone is from!

And explain this one to me.....

American gets his check on Friday, it's $400 after tax. Immigrant gets his check, it's $400 minus NO tax. Later business gets slow. The american looses his job after giving 10 years of hard work. The immigrant stays on. Why? Because he works for less while bringing home just as much. It's not fair and what's with the tax break?

By the way, I run into this immigrant later and ask him about his investments, mortgage & health insurance. He explains to me that he lives in government housing and he & his family all are covered by medicaid so he has no need for insurance but he mentions having quite a large sum of money that he'd like to talk about investing..............

:blob2:

KDJ
12-18-2002, 08:31 PM
Just because he has a foreing look doesn't mean he's not here legally, You all (racist) star complaining when you see a mexican running a business, wearing a tie, etc. as long as they stay back in the kitchen tha't ok for you.

This country was formed of immigrants, just cause it happened long time ago doesn't mean it didn't [/B][/QUOTE]
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Well you are correct when you say "This country was formed of immigrants" But it also looks like you are playing the race card.
Over the years this country was built strong with a ideal, a goal, a vision of freedom. All immigrants that arrived took notice and respected the laws of the land. That just is not the case with the southern boarder. Live with the truth.

AztlanLC
12-18-2002, 09:25 PM
I do love my country (mexico) but at the same time have lots of respect for this and for all the people in this or any other country, maybe I should have leave the world racist out but I said it, that's because I'm tired of people thinking that we are a problem for wages.

If someone shows you an ID don't expect it to be legal, cause most of the times they're not (I know that for a fact) or just because you want to think so, the reason we came down here is because the need for us, most american citizens don't like this kind of work and I don't blame'em working 60-70-80-90 hours a week, when I was in my country I worked 48 hours a week, and went to school but the situation is real bad over there that's the reason I had to came down here, and I would do it again.



Over the years this country was built strong with a ideal, a goal, a vision of freedom. All immigrants that arrived took notice and respected the laws of the land. That just is not the case with the southern boarder. Live with the truth.

In other worlds you think all mexican are trouble makers.

See that's the belief of lots of people they think we came down here to steal your money, we make our own money and produce more for this country at the same time, I accept it we shouldn't be here in the first place but any place I go I'd do anything to not become a problem for anybody, I'm against welfare, and all those programs that pay people so they don't work, maybe some really need it, all my mexican friends pay taxes, even if they're here legal or illegal, I really trust in paying taxes because coming from a country that most people try no to or don't I know the effect.

I'm sorry if I call you racist, but sometimes I just get thick off when I see people trying to blame everybody else for their situation, lots of time in this forum we talk about scrubs and I have said before, for me they are like Crows they ate what nobody wants, we need'em too so people can compare the quality of our work.

I've been legally in this country for 6 years out of 12 now, yes I did work with a fake SS card an ID before, and I'm not afraid that someone knows about it, I've made million of dollar in this country, but most of has already being spend it back here too, there's an old saying in mexico, no muerdas la mano del que te da de comer, (Don't bite the hand that feeds you) and I respect that, but I will always stand up to what I belive.

I apologize again if I offended anyone.

Mueller Landscape Inc
12-18-2002, 09:33 PM
Not a problem Aztlan. Hispanics are hard workers and family oriented. I respect that.

Envy Lawn Service
12-18-2002, 09:54 PM
AztlanLC,

I for one don't really think anyone is judging you or flat out trying to offend you. I know it must be hard sometimes not to be offended with such things as this. I just think the word racist tends to set a lot of people off. Particularly white americans. Some of us are beginning to feel like the minority with less rights as an american. So some of us are a bit testy after living here and working our butts off most of our lives just to see a lot of other folks besides us reap the benefit.

I for one have no problem with the Mexican population. I think the better half of them are teaching a lazy generation a good lession to some extent. In fact one local Mexican has turned the tables for himself here in this country. He has become a big businessman and has both Americans and Mexicans doing the labor for him. He makes good money and charges what everyone else does.

Most of us are only ill at businesses who employ illegals very cheaply, charge less than we do and in the end the owner profits as much or more than we do. Also I take it pretty hard as I see long time hard working employees loose their jobs to immigrants over a buck or two an hour of wages.

I live and work in an area that has been heavy in manufacturing for many years. Mainly furniture and textiles. These folks never made much money at their jobs anyways and it's hard on me to see so many of them loosing their jobs.

But heck, if things keep on around here like they have been with so much work going to Mexico and overseas folks will be immigrating to other places for jobs and all our immigrants will have to go home to find work :laugh:

Well, it felt good to vent a little, I need a good cold one now :drinkup:

southerngent
12-18-2002, 10:56 PM
I feel if you're over 18 and making money mowing yards ....either door to door, or advertising....you should be required to have a license and insurance.

LAWNGODFATHER
12-18-2002, 11:33 PM
Wheter you are Hispanic, Black, Indian, Irainian, Packastanian, Russian, Oriental, Caucasion or whatever.

Every American citazen deserves to waork and provide.

Whether that person chooses to be legal or not is their decision and mistake.

Some one to regulate it, Who wants the job?

bob21
12-19-2002, 12:40 AM
see around here there is alot of this kind of stuff going on and
all they are doing is cutting the amount of money you could make on a job. lets say that today you get 1,500 for what ever next year you couldnt even get close to getting a 750 thats because the can do work cheaper because labor cost are in the 2 to 5 $ range and most operations around here give housing for them to live in for all year and when they get to old to work all they do is kick them to the curb that isnt right and the whole thing is wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

bobbygedd
12-19-2002, 12:46 AM
i am an american! i was born and raised here! and i will tell u this: i have worked with many mexicans, illegal, im sure. not one of u (nor am i) even half the man they are! they work thier butts off, dont talk back to their supervisors, do the crappiest unthinkable jobs u can imagine, eat cheap food, and most commendable, leave their wife and children , in another country, to come here and be mistreated so thier families can live better! i dont know about u hardasses, but personally i dont like to be away from my children for even a day, let alone 10 yrs! and also, they stick together! yea, they live 5 to a room, because they need eachothers help. a whiteboy would throw his own brother in the street rather than live uncomfortably. and also, a whitguy wouldnt do the kind of jobs these guys do, so whos jobs are they taking?and alot of them are much brighter than most whiteguys ive been around. my hat goes off to anyone who has it so bad in a country that they have have to run away from it. and my heart goes out to anyone who has to leave his wife and children behind.

bob21
12-19-2002, 12:55 AM
i used to work for a farmer and i know were u are coming from but it hurts the cash flow around and that is not something to mess with when it is already a hard time with money and stuff

LAWNGODFATHER
12-19-2002, 12:59 AM
Originally posted by bob21
see around here there is alot of this kind of stuff going on and
all they are doing is cutting the amount of money you could make on a job. lets say that today you get 1,500 for what ever next year you couldnt even get close to getting a 750 thats because the can do work cheaper because labor cost are in the 2 to 5 $ range and most operations around here give housing for them to live in for all year and when they get to old to work all they do is kick them to the curb that isnt right and the whole thing is wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dude, wrong or not, they are nothing compared to the ones who do know what they are doing and make the prices stay where they are at.

Who we are talking about didn't make that price fall.

They are the ones you need to watch for. not the illegal immagrants or the scrubs.

Also in another light, the mexicans are the ones keeping this business rolling.

NC Big Daddy
12-19-2002, 01:16 AM
We keep an add in two news papers for help and all I get for it is a bill every month. I can count on one hand how many times a Mexican employee has not worked out. And I can count on one hand how many times our "American" help have worked out. Keep in mind we drug test alot and this seems to ward off the riff raff. But as for the work and workers it's hands down Mexican! They never complain about seven day work weeks (wehn needed) and they like having a job, I cant say the same about our "American" help. As for someone (read American) losing their job to a Mexican to bad work harder at your next job. I'm sick and tired of people thinking someone owes them anything much less a job. This country was built on hard work and better ones self from it. Remember in the early 1900's the issue was the Irish and in the 1880's it was the Germans and guess what? Everything worked out fine.

Bluesteel
12-19-2002, 01:19 AM
Like I said, "everyone's got a sob-story." You say you've got it tuff, well I believe that's true, but you can join the crowd home-boy cuz I do too! This is business, not charity. But its turing out to be charity for many (not all) wealthy people who hire dirt cheap labor.

I know the Scab's will still be a problem, but one thing at a time. And Illegal Immigrants are a HUGE drain on our economy. Want to talk about all the "meanial" jobs they do? Well maybe those jobs wouldn't be paying beans if the people who did them had to support an average American family. I never mentioned any particular race. But when you throw a rock at a pack of dogs, the one that yelps is the one that got hit.

Additionally, don't talk about what Illegal Immigrants do, without talking about what they cost. There are thousands and thousands of people who want to immigrate legally, but are being cheated by those who sneak. I'm no macro-economist, but it doesn't take one to see the Illegal Immigrants cost more than they produce.

Again, the issue is fair competion. I was offering a SUGGESTION on how to fix it. If you have something constructive to offer, please do so. If you're just a gun-slinger, here to shoot down ideas, keep it to yourself.

Tony Harrell
12-19-2002, 05:42 AM
I don't think using the term "Mexican" is productive. We've already offended one of our brothers here. The term illegal alien is better because it describes behavour(sp?). The fact is though, our southern border is wide open. There are however others who are getting through. I can't fault anyone trying to improve their lives. If I were in their situation, I'd do it too. We (our country) need to get a handle on this. Maybe better work permits would help. As far as Mexico goes, corruption is widespread. Law and order are the first things needed to improve their economy and their way of life. I've often thought about the future, Mexico would become part of the US and prosperity could extend to the Yucatan.

The Mowerdude
12-19-2002, 06:20 AM
Well, we've certainly bantered this subject back and forth but no one has really put it in THIS perspective. So HERE'S where I'm coming from and I'd be willing to bet that a very high percentage of the LCOs on this forum will be able to identify with me.

I've built a business with my promise of dependability as one of my plusses. And as most people do, my customer expects me to be at his yard when I say I'm going to be there. He doesn't care about my truck breaking down, or my mower not running. He doesn't care about my employee problems. All he cares about is that I said that I'd cut his yard every Friday and that doesn't mean the following Monday or Tuesday. Also, he doesn't care if I have 10 other customers or 1000 customers. He wants what he wants. And I promised to deliver.

Now, I've got this helper I'll call American Boy (AB). The quality of AB's work is mediocre at best. I have to tell him every move to make. The very instant that he finishes one task, he stops everything until I tell him the next task. When he gets his paycheck, he has tough decisions to make, such as whether to spend the money on liquor or pot.....or both. Over the course of the summer, he really wears our relationship very thin with a constant barrage of requests for favors above and beyond the realm of work such as: "Can I borrow the truck to help my old lady move?" or: "Man, I'm a little behind on the rent and I'm about to get my a** thrown out. Can you front me a little until payday?" Basically this guy's life is one huge trainwreck and I've had the misfortune of becoming his personal social worker.

But, it gets better. After all I've done for him, we go through a particularly lush time with the grass growing as fast as we can cut it. In fact, it seems that by the time we get the gate up on the trailer, it's time to cut again. But Tuesday and Wednesday, we get torrential downpours and now we're 2 days behind. And, as many of you know, if you've got 30 customers waiting in line to get cut, ALL 30 want to be the very NEXT one that you cut. Thursday morning, AB knows he's supposed to be at work at 7:30am but by 9:00, he's nowhere in sight. I've called everyone that I can think of but I can't find the man. And the reason I can't find him is simple. He knows that we're going to have to spend Thursday, Friday and Saturday trying to get caught up and that's just a whole lot more than he wants to fool with. Finally, I load everything up and drive over to his house and find his car in the drive. After 20 minutes of beating on the door, he finally answers but says that he's just WAAAAY too sick to work. :angry: He knows I'm really steamed, so he lays out Friday because he doesn't have the moxy to face me. By the time Saturday rolls around, I'm looking to hire someone else and he calls on the phone. He wants to know if I can cash his check and bring it to him. Turns out, he's up in the Ashland City Jail and he's going nowhere until he puts up some money. I tell him that I can't do it because I've just got WAAAY too much grass to cut.

Monday morning, a Mexican Boy (MB) walks in out of the clear blue and asks if I need any help. He shows me a green card (they're actually pink) and a Social Security card. Now I know for a fact that there are a lot of bogus IDs out there. But as I look at this one, I've gotta admit, it really looks real to me. So I hire him on the spot and we spend the rest of the summer totally hassle free. No drugs, no jail time, no marital problems and his life is not a trainwreck. MB takes a personal interest in MY business, My customers. His hair is neat and trimmed. He has no tatoos, no peircings and his eyes are never bloodshot. Each morning he shows up on time. If I have to stay on the phone with customers before we leave, MB spends that time doing maintenance on the mowers or trucks. If I have to stay in a yard and talk to the customer, MB will clean and straighten the truck and trailer. He never needs to be told what to do. He takes initiative. And he's very happy to receive the very same wage I was paying AB. But his production is so much better than AB's that I give him the raise that I promised to AB in a futile attempt at motivation.

At this point folks, I've gotta tell you. In the years that I've been in business, I've had loads of ABs and MBs. And I'm here to tell you, that I have enough of my own problems to care about what the ilegal situation is doing on the other end of the country. All I know is that I want to see some kind of green card or other ID. Beyond that, I've got a business to run and I'm going with what has proven to work the best.

I would have to say that the man that really thinks that undocumented workers are hurting our nation, is really refusing to face facts. The fact is this: This country is full to the rim with soft, lazy, drug-using, alcoholic sloths that simply refuse to return a good day's work for a fair wage. And in the process, have left small business owners with virtually no choice. There's the REAL problem.

bobbygedd
12-19-2002, 09:16 AM
damn boy, very well said, and from tenn? i thought all u folks were blood relatives down that way

bobbygedd
12-19-2002, 09:21 AM
o, and actually big daddy, this country was built on hard work..... truly, this country was first stolen, and then built by the exploitation of slaves. in the house....big daddy

The Mowerdude
12-19-2002, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by bobbygedd
i thought all u folks were blood relatives down that way

If you think AB is bad, you should see what my own kinfolk put me through. :D

goose
12-19-2002, 09:36 AM
Bobbygedd you are either a politician or you are hoping your mexican employees reads all of your posts. Not half a man ,right.

bilbo7021
12-19-2002, 09:48 AM
I hate to say it, but both bobby and mowerdude are right. This grand ol' country of ours wasn't built by too many white folk. The Irish built the garment industry, the Germans, Poles, and Eastern Europeans built the steel mills, the Chinese built the railroads, and the Mexicans keep much of the back end of the food business rolling sometimes (including farmers).

As for the immegrants being illegal. I'm guessing they've figured out something that we haven't. If you move your family here, become legal and all, pay taxes etc, you wind up in the same boat the rest of us are in. Pay scales for about half the crap jobs out there just aren't up to where they should be, mainly due to waaayyyy too much taxation for stupid crap. But if there's a way to come here, do the work no one else wants, and send like 75% back home......why wouldn't you? I'm not saying it's right, but that's the reason.

One last thing, again unfortunate to say. I'm only 37, but in all those 37 years, I think I've met about ten people who I could call good workers (those who I think would die with a hammer in their hands and a nail in their teeth). Most people under 30 these days (people on here excluded) wouldn't work for Burger King cause it's "beneath them" to get greesy! Heck, I know alot of people who just hate working in mini marts cause it's a sh** job; but they forget, it's income that they can use to move farther up the ladder if they worked at it. So yes, you will see Mexicans, and Asians, and Arabs taking jobs we (as in those who grew up here) don't want cause they know the value of our money! We, on the other hand, do not.

Gene $immons
12-19-2002, 09:49 AM
I hire Mexicans thatcan provide me with a valid ID. It is hard to find ones that have a drivers licence, but the ones that do usually also speak both languages. This is the ideal employee for me. They are the foreman and translator.

Gene $immons
12-19-2002, 09:56 AM
Mowerdude, I agree with 110% of your post. I have found that white boys in their 20's are usually out of the question as far as making a responsible employee. Mexicans are the way to go.

Mueller Landscape Inc
12-19-2002, 10:14 AM
Bobbygedd,

I have employed dozens on Hispanics over the years. Let me tell you that your blanket statement about Mexicans being far better than Americans is BS. I have had Hispanics lie right to my face about all kinds of things. I have had them cheat on their timecards, steal from me, etc. Character is what is important. And character doesn't care where you come from.

To the rest of you,

Everyone who believes that the American worker sucks and the immigrant worker is for real, need to look at the bigger picture. Great American workers don't work in the landscape field because it pays to low. These people have gone to school and understand that low wages are not going to cut it. They set their sights on the greater things like engineering, computers, owning businesses, etc. You people should compare apples to apples. The American worker who works in the landscape field doing "field" work is either a kid, dropout, on drugs, or maybe in school. They are not the cream of the crop, nor are they the type of person who would chance going to another country to make a better life.

So don't blast the American worker because you can't find any of them to do hard cheap labor. And don't forget that there is a reason why that labor is so cheap to begin with....hence the reason why this thread was started in the first place.

Doc Pete
12-19-2002, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by LAWNGODFATHER
Key word Illegal.

Illegal also mean an Illegal business.

Good point, you old codger;) . Funny but what goes around, comes around. The average person (consumer) bitches about what the "Illegals" have done to business, industrty, and medical insurance, BUT, the average consumer is the "first" to hire these boozos to save a buck or two on their landscaping charges.
Pete

yacht
12-19-2002, 11:51 AM
I have to agree with bilbo7021. There are millions and millions of respectful hardworking american kids in their late teens and early twenties who want to make a name for themselves by working hard and focusing on success. Where are they you ask? They're filling our colleges and are busy building their own empires. Read the thread regarding "How Many of you are 18". These kids are bright hardworking young americans who want more from life than to scrape by day to day with $6 or $7hr. Don't judge all young americans based on the loser that you hired for $6/hr. Just like anything else in this world...you get what you pay for.

The Mowerdude
12-19-2002, 11:54 AM
Quoted By Mueller Landscaping

...your blanket statement about Mexicans being far better than Americans is BS.

No it isn't! As I stated earlier, I'm going by what I see walking through my door looking for work. Yes, it IS true. I've had Mexicans lie to me and steal from me and there have been some very lazy ones in the mix as well. As we say here: "Every barrel has its bad apples." But percentage wise, the problems associated with the Mexican workforce that we've seen here in Tn, pale in comparison with the problems associated with our southern good old boys. I have no doubt that you're being in California exposes you to an entirely different set of parameters. My guess is that with the incredibly high Hispanic population that you have there, obviously there are a lot more of the dregs of Latino society simply because there are a lot MORE Latinos.

Everyone who beleives that the American worker sucks and the imigrant worker is for real, needs to look at the bigger picture.

No offense, but I could not possibly care less about the bigger picture. It's really futile to try change the world from Music City anyway. I'm totally powerless to prevent illegal imigrants from crossing our borders. I'm not a telepath and I'm no expert on ID cards. So as far as I'm concerned, if a man, ANY man walks through my door, looking for work, and he has proper identification, he has as much right to work as any other. So here's my bigger picture. I have a lawncare business that I'm trying very hard to grow in order to secure my future for retirement. But, we all make decisions based on experience. And in my experience, if a Mexican walks through my door, he stands a much better chance of getting hired than a white boy simply because my track record with Mexicans is much, much better than my track record with white boys.

Great American workers don't work in the landscape field because it pays to low.

This is sssooooo true! And yet, my small business cannot afford to pay the wages that many young promising white boys demand. I've had some really good workers but never did they stay long because they either want the sky or they start their own lawncare businesses and become my competitor. So I think we're really identifying the root of the problem here. So just what damage is the undocumented worker causing in this country? Isn't it true that the illegal worker really IS taking the job that no one wants?

We talk about the illegal problem, but just what problem is being caused? Loss of jobs? These white boys want wages that rival what Nissan and Saturn are paying, here in Tennessee, plus benefits. Where in the HELL am I to get that kind of money and still stay in business. And the resentment I feel when I realize that what a white boy wants from me is MORE than I make for myself. Why should I build a business, buy equipment, canvas for customers, take on the responsibility to perform the work, deal with complaints, assume losses due to accidents and theft, pay all my labor, pay my insurance, workman's comp, give up time with my family because weather has held us back, and then turn around and pay all my money out to some workers that feel that they deserve it because they're white. And when I pay that white boy, guess what?!! It aint enough!! Turdhead puts a gun to my head by announcing that if I don't give him a raise, he'll just quit and go into business for himself. (At that point, I usually say:"Go for it, stupid!")

So why not blast the American workforce? If they don't want to do hard cheap labor, fine. But then who's going to do it?

Finally, I'm not using Hispanics because they're cheap. I pay them what my business structure allows, which is EXACTLY the same as I would pay any one. I pay them exactly what I've always paid the white boys. I'm NOT exploiting them because they're from Mexico but rather, I'm tickled to see them walk through my door. I just need to see that proper ID.:)

The Mowerdude
12-19-2002, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by yacht
These kids are bright hardworking young americans who want more from life than to scrape by day to day with $6 or $7hr. Don't judge all young americans based on the loser that you hired for $6/hr. Just like anything else in this world...you get what you pay for.

I really wish I could get some help, ANY help for $6 per hour. We pay $10-$12 here.

I really mean no offense here at all, but it's been over a decade since I was able to get any one at all to even talk to me for $6 per hour. If the going rate in your area is $6-$7 per hour, I'm packing up and moving! :D

The Mowerdude
12-19-2002, 12:30 PM
Sorry about the multiple posts, but I just had yet another thought.

When dealing with the American worker, it's not always about the money. Thinking that it IS about the money is a myth.

I'm speaking straight from experience here and NOT conjecture.

But the American worker has, over time, developed an amazing work ethic. But not necesarily a good ethic. When I've hired American workers, I've had an unbeleivably difficult time motivating them regardless of money offered or other perks. The fact is this. If the man's not going to work well, heaven or earth will not change him. Among my American workforce, I've consistently had the same problems over and over, again and again. Problems such as:

Chronic Absenteeism

Most of my workers will use the least little pretext to not show up for work. "Hey, my dad's flying in today and I have to pick him up at the airport." Or "The water pipe is leaking, the landlord's out of town and I have to be there to let the plumber in." Then there's "I have to pick my daughter up from daycare because the old lady's working overtime." How about the venerable "my car won't start."

All of these are pretty much legit, IF they're not being strung together at the rate of 2-3 per week.

Chronically stuck in low gear

In 12 years of being in business, I've yet to find an American worker that will get a move on. Not a single one of them has EVER interested himself in making any money for the company by actually getting things done. And I'm not talking drunks and the homeless here. I'm talking about what appear to be honest, strait forward white boys with a lot to offer, at least from all outward appearances. Everyone wants $25 per hour, but no one stops to think that if the work doesn't get done, the company won't have the money to make payroll. None take care of the equipment, very rarely polite to customers, always looking to short change the job. As an example, not trimming where they think no one will notice. And way too many breaks between yards at the convenience markets.

Chronically arriving late for work

Enough said on this one.

Chronically dropping EVERYTHING in an instant to make time with the babes

This is one of my biggest headaches when dealing with our promising young high school aged or young adult workers. Let a skirt and a pair of high heels show up anywhere within one lightyear of the jobsite and ALL work comes to a screeching halt. And I suppose that this is closely related, but when 2 or more high school aged workers are on the same job, it's playtime. To hell with the work, let's party!

Now tell me that the American workforce isn't shooting itself in the foot over this "illegal" thing.

Mueller Landscape Inc
12-19-2002, 12:32 PM
Mowerdude,

The going rate is relative to how close to the border you are. Around here, I start guys at $8.00 per hour. That is on the high end. Many of them are working for less with companies that they have worked for for 1-2 years. In residential maintenance there are Mexicans that are charging about $10.00 per hour for their work. They are in business for themselves.

I know that the Mexicans as a general rule are better workers when they walk through the door and those good American workers find something better or become your competition. I am sure that you would do the same thing if you were being paid $10.00 per hour. But the fact still remains, that those wages are low because of supply and demand. There simply is a great supply of cheap labor that comes here illegaly from Mexico. I guarentee that if they were not here, wages would be higher and you would be able to keep some of those American workers and your customers would pay more for your services. Why? Simple, you guys from the heartland are already able to charge much more for your services than I can in my area because of the labor factor. I read enough on this forum to know that many of you guys are getting $60-$75.00 dollars per production hour in your areas. Out here $35.00 per production hour for maintenance is on the high end. So you see it is all relative to the supply of cheap labor. Because of the cheap labor in this country and the unfair international trade laws, American workers have moved toward more of the white collar jobs and own businesses. The labor unions are the last of the true American labor worker and they are fighting, I believe, a lossing battle for their jobs. That doesn't mean I support the labor unions and all they stand for, but they are Americans too.

I state the big picture because someone else stated that one worker from one country was far superior to another from this country. Thats crap!

The Mowerdude
12-19-2002, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by Mueller Landscape Co
I state the big picture because someone else stated that one worker from one country was far superior to another from this country. Thats crap!

I absolutely agree!!

The really good American worker is actually going to university and we never really even get a chance to talk to him, much less offer him a job. Once he leaves college, he's got his career path defined. And we're actually talking about many different people of differen calibers.

Now, I have to also say this:

We've seen individual families, such as my own and that of my wife's, that instill a very strong work ethic into their children. But, unfortunately, these values seem to be losing ground in the changing environment of the new millenium. I grew up living out in the countryside and working for the farmers around me. I learned that hard work never hurt anyone. But I also felt that I didn't want to work for anyone else, when I could reap the benefits of my own labor by having my own business. So why am I surprised when other hard working Americans want no less.

So here's another part of this very complex problem. The really good (non-sucking) American worker is either on a career path already, OR he's in business for himself.

Since the flow of illegals has been a solid fact of life for so many years that my great grandparents used the term "wetback," the nation should try to somehow regulate and organize, rather than trying to plug a leaking seive. But (sigh) I suppose that it has gone on for so long now that there probably isn't a solution at all.

Randy Scott
12-19-2002, 01:40 PM
The problem I see with alot of the younger high school/college individuals is that of when they are in the workforce. Although they are going to college to educate themselves for a different calling in life, they still have no work ethic in their part-time or summer jobs. Just because you are going to college for a different career, doesn't mean you should be a lazy turd now. They have no drive to do a good job at whatever they do. They truly believe their degree is the key to the future. It is a helpful tool, but without ambition and drive, you are nobody going nowhere. Besides, I would love to know the graduation rate of college students versus the drop out rate.
I have heard it right from college kids mouths that they would rather go to school than work, although their destination is unknown! Pothetic!!!!!!!!!!!
Put whatever spin on it you want, but we have an ignorant and lazy generation upon us. I wish I knew the solution but I don't. There are too many loopholes for people to collect state and government money which just drives any work ethics right into the crapper. Too many baby boomers giving their kids free rides resulting in a non-existant work ethic.

With what has all been said here, and there are alot of good and different points of view, I will do what it takes for me to be successful in life. Whatever color or race you are, if you don't work up to my standards, you will be looking for somewhere else to work. If you think you got all the answers, then go use them somewhere else. I'm only going around once in this life and I've got no use for lazy unmotivated individuals!!

mklawnman
12-19-2002, 01:49 PM
Yeah Randy i would agree with ya, alot of people my age are just workign for the heck of it, dont give much thought into what they are doing, they just want the money. Considering most of my friends dont know what they want to do after college, they just go to college to learn some and party ALOT. Some do have jobs but thats only during the summer, factory jobs, or gas station jobs. My generation could be a lazy generation in the future, though i think with all this new teaching they do and all the new technologies that we may see alot more bright people in the years to come. But who knows, technology could take over our generation and make us more fat and lazy and ruin the world as we know.
Im lucky i know what i want to do for a career, love working in the landscaping field. Just wish more people my age had their thoughts made up on what they want to be after college, but nobodies perfect. :rolleyes:
Matt

JohnyNCa
12-19-2002, 02:03 PM
Aztlan: Te mando saludos y te respecto camarada :)

Hello everyone. This is a good topic that hits to home. I am a mexican- american business owner in landscape i basically took over my dads business when he suffered a stroke about 5 years ago. Ive been working since i was 7 yrs old when i would go with him to various yards few times a week or on weekends so i was taught the business at a young age. My dad came over from mexico when he was young, basically imigrated in the 50's in the BRACERO program working in agriculture here in california...he was imported as there wasnt enough workers available to work in the fields. He told me how tough it was back then and is still due back pay but thats another story. Anyway heres a guy who came here to do work who that no one didnt want to do and made something of himself and his family and unfortunately suffered a stroke since he just worked too much and didnt take any vacations or anything. So i wa taught at a young age to work hard and i admire him for that. Hes the hardest worker ive ever known. I remember i would be working with him and wanted to rest but he said no lets keep going and i was about 18 and strong as a ox so that gave me respect for him. So eventually i went through school, have 2 college degrees one in cultural anthopolgy and business and thus took over my dads business. Im quit my dead end job and couldnt be happier. He basically had the strong work ethic but not that business sense so i changed alot on how the business was run to make it more profitable. Here in california there are many if not the majority of landscape owners that may be MEXICAN or HISPANIC or have LATIN descent in them. How do u know there from mexico in the first place? Do they have it tattoed on their forehead? The pont is u dont know unless you ask them. So i think its best to just say that guy or individual when labeling someone from their ethnic origin. Peace and happy holidays to my fellow compadres:blush:
Johny

yacht
12-19-2002, 02:56 PM
Mowerdude - You're right finding labor for $6/hr is unrealistic and non-existent. Based on your description of "AB", $6/hr was paying him too much. Just wanted to make the point that there are millions of young adults graduating from college every year who are chasing after the american dream. They are no different than each of us who wants a better life for ourselves and our families. I too grew up on a farm and was taught that hard work pays off. In my teen years I probably was viewed as a loser by some employers after quitting after 2 weeks but it was not because I'm a slacker, it's because I'm chasing a dream and something else better came along. I now have realized that dream and used those different jobs over the years as stepping stones for a foundation to a lifelong career. "AB" is a low life who came from the shallow end of the gene pool and will never realize a life long career. If you don't take pride in yourself you will never take pride in your work. Those are the employees you must avoid. Just my .02:)

The Mowerdude
12-19-2002, 04:40 PM
Yacht

I think you just hit the nail on the head with your comment about so many of our young people "chasing a dream."

And really, you have to admire someone who can do that. I think, too, that many of our young people have come to the opinion that working a "conventional" job is not the way it's done anymore. Both my wife's family and mine, have always subscribed to this philosophy: "Got to school, get an education. Find a good company to work for, take care of that company and that company will take care of you." But we can easily see in this day of corporate downsizing, massive layoffs, dwindling Social Security and on and on, things have changed and are STILL changing. I really believe that many young people clearly feel that entering the job market will NEVER amount to anything more than a meager existence and, as a result, are not even fooling with anything less than sky high. That's why we've seen the Stock Market doing what it has the last 5 years, the real estate market doing crazy things and so on. People in record numbers are chasing non traditional means of making money.

JohnnyNCa

I think that, at least to some extent, it can still be done the old fashioned way as has been proven by your father. Yes, he's worked very very hard all of his life, but has been able to provide a college education for the children and even got a business up and running for you to take over. That's an excellent legacy.

How do we get our young ones to understand that, while they're chasing dreams, they could further their chances with hard work?

Tu padre tiene me respeto tambien.

southerngent
12-19-2002, 06:10 PM
Johny....it's tough when you move to another country and know nothing about it. what's wrong down in Mexico that you can't fix? If mexico is so bad that you have to resign the citizenship of your
homeland....then rather than running from the problem....fix it!

nelbuts
12-19-2002, 09:14 PM
Listen here we go!! I don't give a rat's ***** what you are just speak ENGLISH in this country and you can work for me. I refuse to learn another language just so I can work in my country. If I went somewhere else then I would learn the language of that country.

The Mowerdude
12-19-2002, 09:18 PM
Southerngent

Let me see if I can answer this question. But I have to say, that if you think the problem of illegal immigrants is a complex one in this country, it's nothing compared to the complexity of the problem south of the border.

To begin with, during the last 200+ years that the United States has been living under a democracy, Mexico has foundered under a series of dictatorships, political coups and virtually every imaginable political unrest in existence. This has served to corrupt the government to an extremely incorridgeable degree. As a result the politicos have no desire to improve conditions because it won't ever happen on their shift anyway. Instead, they become self-serving money mongers. As a result, extreme poverty has become the norm because the government has never been strong enough to pull itself up by the bootstraps, so to speak.

Therefore, in Mexico there are no government programs to bolster the economy, no welfare, no Social Security, no Federal Grants, no tax breaks, no effort whatsoever to encourage growth, business, improve the job market, etc. All of those things cost money, and the money that is available, get's skimmed off by currupt officials.

On a lower level, the local governments have had to roll with the changes and as a result, even though Mexico is obstensibly a democracy, it's still run on local levels the same as a police state. Just like government higher up, Corruption is rampant. Again, because of the extreme poverty, government office attracts people that are greedy and looking to deal with their own poverty as opposed to trying to solve insurmountable problems.

Now, when you add Catholicism into the mix, you get a culture that develops around an abhorance of birth control and a population explosion that absolutely wrecks any good efforts that may have ever been undertaken. As a result, for every single job that becomes available, 10 - 20 thousand applicants arrive.

Because the government has no programs such as an Environmental Protection Agency, companies such as General Motors arrive to make auto parts without having to clean up after themselves. So they start polluting everything, and since there are so many thousands of applicants for every job, these companies pay nothing in wages. This assures that the common working man never earns enough to get ahead, only enough to eke out a pitiful existance in contaminated squalor.

Also, there is virtually no middle class in Mexico. You are either filty rich, or you're dirt poor. Latest stats that I read state that the rich class makes up only about 5% of the total population.

Put it all together. Population explosion, stark poverty, rampant corruption and no government help. It cannot be fixed. It simply isn't humanly possible.

The only hope for the working class citizen is to try and compensate with the one ability that he has, his ability to work. Therefore, he works extremely hard. But finally, when even that doesn't bring results, he looks to go somewhere where his work will pay dividends - The USA.



So.....how'd I do?

Mueller Landscape Inc
12-19-2002, 09:49 PM
Mowerdude,

You nailed it!

DLS1
12-19-2002, 10:03 PM
MowerDude, illegal alien means illegal. I think people on this site are smart enough to know about Mexico conditions since they are our next door neighbors. There is alot of countries worst off than Mexico. Mexico just happen to be next door. So do we let any and all people from other 3rd world countries a free pass to come in the US. We have laws that need to enforced.

The US helps so many countries (taxpayer money) while there is so many in this country out of work,can't work due to medical reasons,etc that need our support.

I understand what you are saying about Mexico but everyone can come up with a story to justify in their own minds a reason to break the law(s).

The Mowerdude
12-19-2002, 10:06 PM
LSDLS

Don't put words in my mouth. I NEVER said anything about rationalizing the use of illegals by pointing out their living conditions in Mexico. All I was doing was answering Southerngent's question.

DLS1
12-19-2002, 10:17 PM
Hey Mowerdude, fair enough. I should have read Southerngent
post to see why you where answering the way you answered.
Anyhow you did sum it up good about Mexico.

ProLandscapes
12-20-2002, 02:40 AM
JohnyNCA,

I think you need to hit the history books bud. Your dad didn't come here in the fifties to do the work no one wanted. He came here to fill the spots of all of our young men who went to fight during World War 2. There were plenty of european migrant workers before that but they went to defend our country with their lives and many of them never came back. I am so sick and tired of everyone playing the sympathy card here, so what if you have to leave you family to go work in America. You have a choice in the matter and those soilders during WW2 didn't have a choice. At least you can home home as you please and after working in America for ten years you can go home and retire so don't feed us this junk about doing jobs no one else wants. I am a 25 year old white boy who has been doing those jobs you say no one wants to do and I take it as an insult when you say your people are the only ones that will do it. We are just about the same except I believe that people of spanish decent do not respect this country like our european ancestors did, all you have to do is look around at what is becoming another third world nation. Guess were the illegals will run if war hits the home front? That's right, they will run home to leave us to defend ourselves. I think we have a major problem in this country but most europeans are to pussified these days to come up with a solution to these problems. It makes me sick to think that all an immigrant has to do is work on that green card and he/she will get a monthly grant check (not welfare) from the feds. If you dont believe it, check out your local immigration office and get information. We have a double standard when it comes to race in the good old USofA and that is white man either shutup or you are through, everyone else say what's on your mind.

Josh

The Mowerdude
12-20-2002, 07:08 AM
ProLandscapes

Welcome to Lawnsite.com. As a sarcastic, bigoted, flag waiving patriot that doesn't read entire threads to get the flavor of what's being discussed, I can just tell you're going to make a wonderful edition to this forum. BTW, did you choose your nick in honor of the industry magazine?

Let's address some of these issues. You wrote:

JohnnyNCa....you need to hit the history books bud.....

Actually, Pro, you're the one that needs to hit the history books. This country was involved in WW2 from December 1941 to August 1945. And all of the soldiers that didn't get killed, got back home long before the 50s arrived.

I'm sick and tired of everyone playing the sympathy card here....

You're kidding right? At 25 years of age, you can't possibly be sick of much of anything at all. You haven't been on this planet long enough. I think you should gut it up and muzzle it. Because you have many more years of this to come. If this bothers you now, you're going to be really miserable when you hit 50.

I'm a 25 year old white boy that's been doing those jobs you say no one wants....

I doubt it!. You're now an LCO like the rest of us which means you're NOT doing the jobs that no one wants.

We are just about the same......

You say this, but then you follow with:

...except I believe that people of spanish decent do not respect this country....

You're contradicting yourself. Are you the same or are you NOT the same? Who are you to waive your hand across the entire spanish speaking populace and claim that no one from this particular ethnic group has respect. This is EXACTLY the same kind of bigoted statement that just got Trent Lott into deep doo doo. Also, not only do you NOT know history, you don't know geograpy either. Spanish speaking people originally came from SPAIN. Guess what......that's in Europe!! DOH!!

Guess were the illegals will run if war hits the home front....

This point is really moot. The fact is that war, in the traditional sense, will NOT hit the home front because there are no other countries that have the capability, combined with the desire, of bringing conventional war to America's shores. But there are those, however, that would like to do that. So they resort to the only method they have available - terrorism. Terrorists are terrorists because they do NOT have the ability to fight a conventional war. If they did, I'm sure they wouldn't hesitate to mass together everything they had and attack.

It makes me sick to think that all an immigrant has to do is work on that green card and he/she will get a monthly grant check....

I've got a bunch of friends with green cards that would like to know how they can get a monthly grant check, too.

The fact is this: The ONLY greencard holders that recieve a monthly grant check are immigrants/refugees from political conflicts such as the one in Bosnia in the past few years. Since those people arrived here after losing every worldly possession in the conflict, our government went one step further and has helped them with some start up money. However, now that the situation over there has died down, there are no new Bosnian immigrants receiving any grants. These things are ONLY done on an "as needed" basis. I personally feel that ANYONE who faults our government for lending that helping hand, needs to do some serious soul searching. To me this is like saying: "Well, stupid, if you hadn't been rear-ended by that 18-wheeler, you wouldn't be in the hospital. I guess you'll know better next time, huh!" (Like someone could actually choose to not live in a warzone anymore than they could choose not to get rear-ended in an accident)

BTW, I looked and looked for the word "pussified" in the dictionary, but I couldn't find it anywhere. :D

The Mowerdude
12-20-2002, 07:27 AM
Sorry about this, but here I go with my multiple posts again. But my mind just keeps working and working and I get more and more thoughts.


Originally posted by ProLandscapes
We have a double standard when it comes to race in the good old USofA and that is white man either shutup or you are through, everyone else say what's on your mind.

Josh, you aint one of them white supremist skinheads we all hear about up there in the Pacific Northwest are you? :confused:

Just wondering......

65hoss
12-20-2002, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by The Mowerdude

JohnnyNCa....you need to hit the history books bud.....

Actually, Pro, you're the one that needs to hit the history books. This country was involved in WW2 from December 1941 to August 1945. And all of the soldiers that didn't get killed, got back home long before the 50s arrived.


What, you mean your history books don't show WWII as the 50's? Humm...must be that new revised history. :D :D :D

odin
12-20-2002, 08:52 AM
[i]Originally posted by mowerdude


Because the government has no programs such as an Environmental Protection Agency, companies such as General Motors arrive to make auto parts without having to clean up [/B]

That very true not only gm but ford and chysler and volkswagon to .The ugly avalanche comes up from mexico.

NAFTA in all its glory

Katwalk
12-20-2002, 09:52 AM
Look under Soccer mom to get synonym for pussified. Randy Scott said the baby boomer parents stroke the kids and give them everything and tell them its okay .....that is hard work son and its hot outside. Parents allow the kids to get off the hook and tell them that they should be getting more money. I have two Guatamalan brothers that would blow the doors off any other two man crew around. At $12.50 an hour each and I buy lunch on Friday...what a bargain. They have illegal cousins that I can't hire and it kills me because they would be a nice compliment to the two I have. To the Spanish worker, any type of agricultural based job is considered diserable in there country therefore thats why they typically are better workers. The legality is the toughest part. I started my business paying everybody cash...collecting cash.....great. 6 years later, fully legit and not going to go backwards and start paying illegals cash as I was with the white boys years ago. If they are legal....spanish is the way to go. Mowerdude.....you are all fired up and I think that is great......the dates on WW II was great

AztlanLC
12-20-2002, 10:35 AM
well I have learned a lot from this post, even history, I'd like to say thank you to all the people that took the time and posted.

We mexican don't claim to be better workers than americans we live in a country like mower dude explained (and did it better than more news channels over there), we don't live over there we have to survive, most of the mexican population start to have hard working jobs at the age of 10 or less, for nature we are use to to work harder. Look at the fish from the bottom of the ocean.

The goverment knows how to control the ilegal population, belive me they know how many are, but they also know that it's needed, it would be so easy to call up to all the companys that have illegal immigrants and let them know, actually they do but only to those that hire ilegals in a higher position, some companys are even requested to call to the INS every time someone shows up with a green card, or workers permit to make sure they're legit.

The first year I did my income tax I had to pay 200 dlls. back, I received a letter from IRS saying that my SS didn't exist and had to call them, I did call'em and they told me to get a Tax ID# from IRS just to do my income tax, but meanwhile they said send the $200.00 and use your # next year, following year somebody told me I could claim my son and wife, which I did but because they were living in mexico IRS didn't allowed me, I was expecting a $1,200.00 refund end up paying $500.00, Social security send me a letter too they said, due to the fact that your SS# is not registred in our database we can not create an account for your retirement, bla bla, Did they said hey! here's your money we're not going to save it for you? nope just a polite letter explaining that all the money that I paid for 6 year it's gone.

I didn't and don't care about that money, but my point is that the goverment knows how many illegal immigrants are in this country, where they live, where they work, at the same time they know how to have control over them, it's okay for them to pay SS or any taxes with a fake SS, but don't try to get a drivers license with that, in mexico you can use an american license, but in here your not allow to drive unless you have a canadian or other rich country license.

American's are hard working too the only thing they don't want to work hard forever or more than 40 hours Mon-Fri, every time I see a succesfull lawyer, Doctor, Etc. I feel good for them and for me because that's what keeps the economy alive, people making money and spending.

There might be some people that sees Immigrants as a problem for the economy, I don't, not just because I use to be one but because the reality is there is lots of demand for us, maybe you think they charge cheap mowing lawns themselfs, there's also lots of american lowballer around where I live and they stay busy and I stay busy trought the season.

There's only few americans that can compete with hispanic labor the rest have realized that they have to be above them and they go to school (smaaaart thinking) maybe in the future my childrens won't have to do the same kind of work that I do (Actually I don't do that much anymore).

There's a lot's of good point in this tread from both sides, thank you all for taking your time and express yourselfs.

JohnnyNCa saludos para ti tambien compadre.
Mower dude your posts made me think a lot
Prolandscape thaks for your opinions

The Mowerdude
12-20-2002, 06:49 PM
Kinda makes you feel warm and fuzzy, don't it.

ProLandscapes
12-20-2002, 08:37 PM
Mower dude,

You are a close minded person who tries to contradict facts with petty, worthless statements. Before you start smarting off at the mouth, do your research. I have been here long before you boy. And you to are playing the racist card by trying to call me a skinhead. You just discredit yourself with statements like that. The whole reason spanish people got into this coutry was because of this:

The Bracero Program

By the late thirties, when the crop fields began yielding insufficient harvest and employment became scarce, the peasant was forced to look for other means of survival.

The occurrence of this grave situation coincided with the emergence of a demand in manual labor in the U.S. brought about by World War II. On August 4, 1942, the U.S. and the Mexican government instituted the Bracero program. Thousands of impoverished Mexicans abandoned their rural communities and headed north to work as braceros.



In case you didn't catch it, WW2 is the reason for this program and the reason why mexicans were allowed to come here to work. And the after effects of that war went far past the 50's to still haunt us today. The illegals are creating a third world nation here. I personally have two mexicans working for me but they are verified legal. The illegals are taking advantage of a weak government that cannot control the flow. So mowerdude, do your research before spouting off because you don't know what you are talking about. And in case you seem to have forgotten September 11th, we ARE at war on the homefront but it hasn't even got close to bad yet. Illegals that do their paperwork correctly get MONEY plain and simple and I know for a fact that if you are white, you are screwed out of it. I have a friend who is going through the situation with his wifes citizenship. So unless you can Prove your point I suggest you keep it shut.

Josh

The Mowerdude
12-20-2002, 10:35 PM
ProLandscapes

(LOL) OOOOH, I think I hit a nerve!:D

I wasn't actually CALLING you a skinhead, I was just asking?

So Pro, what do you want to do here? Do you want to take this to email? Do you want to see which one of us can pi$$ the highest? Or do you want to have a mature adult conversation?

Your previous post tore into JohnNCa pretty good. I really didn't like the tone. He brought a viewpoint to this thread that I personally very much enjoyed reading. That's why I picked your post apart. Sometimes folks think I'm really mad, when in reality, I'm just having fun. But let's put aside the name calling and the wizzing up the wall and really discuss this in adult fashion.

At what point do we say that people of European descent can enter the U.S. but people from Latin America cannot? Is this a language thing? I've spent years learning to speak Spanish. Do I now have to leave?

The point I made earlier about Spain being a part of Europe really does mean that folks from Mexico basically descended from the same people that you and I descended from. Are we then NOT family from a certain point of view? Wasn't this country founded on the belief that all are created equal? And is it not, in fact, a country completely comprised of immigrants, the only exceptions being the Native American Indians? Therefore, if I'm a descendant of an immigrant, what right do I have to try and subvert the efforts of another to immigrate here?

And, did it ever occur to anyone that one of the reasons that there are so many illegals from Mexico, is that INS has basically said;"If you're from Mexico, there's no way we're going to let you in?" So, in effect, has our government already done the very thing that we're so glad they didn't do when our forefathers were trying to make this journey? It would appear to me that the entire situation is extremely unfair and the Mexican looking to feed his family, is the one that has come up with the short end of the stick.

I've enjoyed this thread. These are issues that I've had inside for many years. I'm glad for the opportunity to discuss them. Up until now, I've not said anything that I didn't know to be absolutely true. But here is my OPINION!

I love this country. I'm glad that I had the good fortune to have been born here. Because I love my country, I feel the sense of duty to follow the laws of this country. That means that I will NOT hire a Mexican that I know to be illegal. However, I also know that if that Mexican has the proper identification, he has the exact same rights as you or I. And if we deny him those rights, we are then no better than Hitler and his henchmen were when they sought to obliterate the Poles and the Jews.

I know that this entire situation is unfair. But then again, when has anything in this world really been fair? As Americans we have to assume that the stand that INS takes with not allowing Mexicans to immigrate here, is the least of all evils. Surely the higher ups have said:" You know, no matter what arraingment we come up with, someone will get screwed." And guess what, they chose Mexico because they had to choose someone. Truth be known, they probably chose Mexico because there were so many Mexicans here already and they decided to let immigrants from other nations have a chance at coming here. Who could have forseen this illegal problem?

Pro

You really seem to have a lot of anger. Please don't take offense at this, but I find it hard to understand how someone your age can be so angry. What has happened in your life for you to become so passionate about this issue of immigrants turning this into a 3rd world country, that you voice yourself almost as though you're on the verge of panic? And really, that's what triggered the thought about skinheads. There wan't any offense intended, I was just on a roll. But those skinhead people are really really angry. And I just don't know why.

As I stated earlier, this world that we live in is NOT fair. It never will be. But I think way too many people somehow feel that it will be if they just scream loud enough. But from one white boy to another, if there is anyone who can make himself a success inspite of problems with every different ethnic group that comes down the pike, it's the average white boy. But the first thing we need to do is stop blaming problems on things that we can't do anything about anyway. Let's get on with building our businesses.

Randy Scott
12-20-2002, 10:42 PM
My dog ran away today. :(

bubble boy
12-20-2002, 10:44 PM
he bit me. if he's a foreign dog i'm suing...

The Mowerdude
12-20-2002, 10:44 PM
lol lol lol lol

Randy, that was good. I laughed and laughed.



















Oh, God, I hope your dog comes back.:(

Randy Scott
12-20-2002, 10:51 PM
I don't even have a dog, just wanted to lighten the mood. :p

Alot of good informative stuff with this and the other thread. Just hard sometimes to stay calm. We are all individuals with individual thoughts and ideas. I agree with the people that focus their energy on their business, that's pretty much how I am. I know I can't save the world and will just try to make my particular surroundings the best I can. Not everything in life will be the way I want it and will have to accept that. With all that's going on in the world, there really is no better place to be than here!!!!!!:) It's the Holidays, lighten up guys. :D

LAWNGODFATHER
12-20-2002, 11:27 PM
Does it really matter when the hispanic's or whom ever came here to take jobs from americans?

No it doesn't these jobs wouldn't be available to anyone who wasn't American if you would bring your kids up right.

Also, don't just say it is the Mexicans all alone it is also the hard working good ole Americans scrubs also, the onlything they have over the rest is they were born here.

richard coffman
12-21-2002, 07:57 AM
:cool:

If ya got a problem with your goverment in mexico, try to fix it. there are plenty of mexican's who would think the same thing, why else would they come across to our borders. coming across isn't going to help your people who still live there. take a stand against your goverment, there are plenty of you out there. people in numbers make a big difference, but just don't try to take over and don't have a plan. do it legally. call for a re-alection of officials, or what ever it takes. I understand you talking about your country being a police state. that's a subject i've been studying a lot on these past couple of years, And i'f your citizens of this great nation don't wake up and smell the coffee and see what our goverment is really up to , some day soon,"we will be in a police state too". I trust our goverment about as far as i could throw them. police states control there people by FEAR and folks are willing to give up there freedoms for a little teporary safty that is non existant. stand for your rights and read the constitution of your country or whatever it is. "God didn't make our cultures to live in bondage, if he did, then he wouldn't be a just god. Man has his agency, make the best of yours. running away from your problem at home isn't going to help solve it. I believe we all will be judged by our actions some day, make a differece and try to stand up and take legalaction. Running away is the cowardly way of doing things. i'f i did that, i wouldn't be or have the company i have today.
just my 2 cents:angel:

GroundKprs
12-21-2002, 08:39 AM
Legal or illegal, immigrants make it here because they know how to apply themselves to a task. They WORK, whether physical or mental, and don't give a hoot about the politics of the workplace. the possibility of grand success, or what the next guy is doing.

In the early 80s, my Dad met E, an immigrant from Cambodia, in an automotive mechanic class. (Dad was retired, and volunteering as a teaching assistant.) E had come here with his whole family, wife & 6 children, and left everything he had in the old country - they just wanted to continue living, if anyone remembers what Cambodia was around that time. Why should he start learning car mechanics? He wasn't, he was taking the course to learn English, because he knew everything about cars. He had owned the Rolls Royce franchise for Cambodia, employing over 50 people in several locations.

So he comes here to start from scratch. But E soon learns the prejudice and politics of the American workplace. It ain't what you know or how you work, it's just who you know and how brown can you get your nose, LOL. So he looks around.

Dad fronts E a few $$ to buy a restaurant hundreds of miles away; restaurant business can be a gold mine if you can manage it right. With all of family working in the business, within 4 years he owns 3 restaurants. How many native born Americans would allow their kids to wash dirty dishes, especially other people's dirty dishes? LOL, LOL!

But restaurant business is a lot of labor, and kids are growing up. Time to opens eyes again (as if they were ever shut). So E sells restaurants, and buys a chain of liquor stores, 3 states away from where he is. Right now, that is where he appears to want to stay. And the older kids are done with college, and helping him better manage the chain.

E's been here a little over 20 years, and family enterprise is worth multiple millions, after starting with basically $0. Just a little personal story to add fodder to the whiners' dilemma. LOL. I think E and his family deserve what they worked for, because they know how to WORK.

xpnd
12-21-2002, 01:47 PM
I haven't read all 66 posts but as a new member I guess I'll fess up my stupidity first. I thought the point at hand was more that thread originator was complaining that this guy was taking from him what he thought should be his part of the marketplace pie. Personally, I welcome the $20.00 hacks in my area because they are ultimately my best customer. They create what I call the educated customer who understands the saying "You get what you pay for" and are willing to pay the difference in price for dependable and high quality work. A $20.00 hack has to accomplish too much work in a day to make ends meet. More than likely he is not carrying insurance or at least adequate insurance, works out of the back of his truck, misses his schedules and not to mention does poor quality work because he has to get to the next job. He will be working with a Wally World blue light special of the week and have no back-ups not to mention having a second truck or trailer. A $20.00 hack is not my competition but a wonderful source of frustrated customers that appreciate my work and don't beef about price. If they do I simply tell them to rehire their former service and walk off the property. If the thread originator thinks this hack is his competition then he (originator) needs to objectively evaluate his business as to why. Obviously he is not offerring anything more than the hack is in terms of service, dependability or quality. No matter how saturated a marketplace is, there is always room for one more if he is one of the best at what he does. The definition of average is the worst of the best and the best of the worst. If you are average you're not going to make it in lawn care or anywhere else.

Personally I appreciate the $20.00 hack. He gets to deals with all those undesirable, unreasonable, overdemanding, late paying, toy and garden hose laden property owners who treat you like an indentured slave and believe you are making money hands over fist on them

AztlanLC
12-21-2002, 02:09 PM
xpnd
I think you make a real good point here, tought I think it's a little bit off topic but very intersting post tough, Have you read the post I'll cut any city lot for 19.95, well if I hope that guy reads this reply of yours.

Welcome to the forum, we need people with that kind of mind in this business.

Mueller Landscape Inc
12-21-2002, 02:58 PM
Sometimes the "getting what you pay for" scenario doesn't show up till years later.

Let me explain;

Lets say a potential lowballer decides he is going to get into the lawn business. He borrows money from his family or maybe he borrows money against his house. Then he goes out and buys the nice ZTR mower or the 48” walkbehind along with a trailer and the other tools and he sets off to work. He begins by lowballing everyone but he probably doesn’t notice because of all the money he has in his pocket. Now depending on how much money he had to start and his life style, he can continue on this way for years……until….. that equipment begins to break down, he doesn’t have the tax money, he gets hurt, etc. The problem is that he isn’t the only one, out there, doing this. Therefore the customer base begins to believe that the lowball prices are the correct prices because they get more of those types of bids. These customers don’t realize that these people are not in business 6 years down the road because there is always someone else taking their lowballing place and there work is pretty fair because they have the nice equipment. Consequently, prices stay down because that’s what the market expects. Now you throw into that mix a culture that is used to making 50 cents per hour to suddenly making $10.00 per hour and you begin to see the bigger picture. They really don’t know any better; they live frugally and within their means and competing with them requires a whole new mindset. That is the reality! How do you compete? Through awesome customer service, and knowing your numbers well enough to outlast them. (them being the lowballer, whoever they are). And hiring them with excellent pay and benefits. But the main point would be customer service. Perception is everything. :)

southerngent
12-21-2002, 07:23 PM
mower dude....if mexico is that bad...we need to blow it up and take it over. A nice little project to re-build. And BTW, I know the problems in mexico.....I don't think the person I was addressing does. If we don't want to have the same problems that mexico has...we'd better wake up and smell the tacos.

lee b
12-21-2002, 08:40 PM
The problem with Mexico is that it is governed by Mexicans, take that anyway you want, but ain't it the truth.

JohnyNCa
12-21-2002, 09:24 PM
Whats up with all this negative talk about mexicans? I guess in your area your not used to seeing mexican or people of ethnic origins or what?! Geez who gives a rats a*@! where your from? These people are not gonna take away your jobs unless no one wants them. Here in california the majority of people employed in landscape is of latin descent so its no big deal. It seems to really bother you huh? I cant wait until they become the majority in your part of the country then whatcha gonna do? Free your mind...:cool:
Peace
Johny

The Mowerdude
12-21-2002, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by JohnyNCa
...whatcha gonna do?


Bad Boys
Bad Boys
Watcha gonna do?
Watcha gonna do when they come for you?
Bad Boys
Bad Boys

:D :) :cool:

brucec32
02-24-2003, 06:12 AM
Hey AztlanLC,

While you're here calling guys "racist"...how about explaining to these naive simple folks what Aztlan means?

(it's a movement of Mexicans to take over parts of the US and make it Mexico again..."reconquista")

see

http://www.aztlan.org/nofa.htm

for more of the scary details. This guy is an invader, plain and simple. Their stated goal is to grab much of the southwest from the USA.

Oh, but there's no harm in mass immigration, is there?

o-so-n-so
02-24-2003, 08:55 AM
I could use some good labors today.......16 Stumps to grind n clean up w/ topsoil...2 large lawn clean ups on the board...and I have a cast on right arm..WOW.. Just a small step for a big stepper......
Help.................................

proscaper
02-24-2003, 01:17 PM
Excellent point bruce.

SR Landscaping
02-24-2003, 01:31 PM
About 7 years ago I hired a Mexican. He worked his Butt off, and I paid Taxes based on his Social Security Card. He worked for me for 5 years, with no problems. Turns out his # on the card was bogus! And the Goverment just kept collecting his taxes. He went back to Mexico, but my QUESTION is this.
So were does the money go? Does our Goverment have a slush fund?
And I really don't have a problem with Illegals. I never intended on Employing one, but did without knowing it. And I haven't had a worker as good since! I really wish Young Americans would have the same work Ethics he displayed. And I'll just keep on looking, but so far I've come up empty.

SR Landscaping
02-24-2003, 01:33 PM
About 7 years ago I hired a Mexican. He worked his Butt off, and I paid Taxes based on his Social Security Card. He worked for me for 5 years, with no problems. Turns out his # on the card was bogus! And the Goverment just kept collecting his taxes. He went back to Mexico, but my QUESTION is this.
So were does the money go? Does our Goverment have a slush fund?
And I really don't have a problem with Illegals. I never intended on Employing one, but did without knowing it. And I haven't had a worker as good since! I really wish Young Americans would have the same work Ethics he displayed. And I'll just keep on looking, but so far I've come up empty.:dizzy:

SR Landscaping
02-24-2003, 01:35 PM
Sorry it posted twice!!!! Ya gotta love AOL

lawncare3
02-24-2003, 01:44 PM
Is it true there is alot of hispanic compitition in Colorado?

I am going to be moving down there in about 2 weeks an I have heard that there are lots of hispanic scrubs? I just don't want to not to be able to get a job. Can someone please tell me your experience thanks,
Chris

AztlanLC
02-24-2003, 06:17 PM
Aztlan is the mythical place of origin of the Aztec peoples. In their language (Nahuatl), the roots of Aztlan are the two words: aztatl tlan(tli) meaning "heron" and "place of," respectively. 'Tlantli' proper means tooth, and as a characteristic of a good tooth is that it is firmly rooted in place, and does not move, the prefix of this word is commonly used in Nahuatl to denote settlements, or place names, e.g. Mazatlan (place of deer), Papalotlan (place of butterflies) or Tepoztlan (place of metal). The Nahuatl language is often said to include three levels of meaning for its words or expressions: literal, syncretic and connotative. The connotative meaning of Aztlan, due to the plumage of herons, is "Place of Whiteness." The mythical descriptions of Aztlan would have it to be an island.
You would replace -tlan with -tecatl to identify a resident or person from the given place. So, for the examples above, we have that people from Mazatlan would be Mazatecatl, someone from Tepoztlan a Tepoztecatl, and someone from Aztlan an Aztecatl.

In the origin myths of the Aztecs, they emerged originally from the bowels of the earth through seven caves (Chicomostoc) and settled in Aztlan, from which they subsequently undertook a migration southward in search of a sign that would indicate that they should settle once more. This myth roughly coincides with the known history of the Aztecs as a barbarous horde that migrated from present-day northwestern Mexico into the central plateau sometime toward the end of the first millennium AD, when high civilizations of great antiquity were already well established in the region. It is known that the Aztecs had a sector ("barrio") in the Toltec city of Tollan, and the cultural influence of the Toltecs on the rough-edged Aztecs was subsequently to be very marked. On the view of some scholars (e.g., Nigel Davies), all of Aztec cultural development was an effort to recreate the grandeur that they knew at Tollan.

The exact physical location of Aztlan is unknown, other than it must have been located near estuaries or on the coast of northwestern Mexico, though some archaeologists have gone so far as to locate the present town of San Felipe Aztlan, Nayarit, as the exact place.

In Chicano folklore, Aztlan is often appropriated as the name for that portion of Mexico that was taken over by the United States after the Mexican-American War of 1846, on the belief that this greater area represents the point of parting of the Aztec migrations. In broad interpretation, there is some truth to this in the sense that all of the groups that would subsequently become the various Nahuatl-speaking peoples of central Mexico passed through this region in a prehistoric epoch, as attested by the existence of linguistically related groups of people distributed throughout the US Pacific Intermountain region, the US southwest and northern Mexico, known as the Uto-Aztecan-Tanoan group, and including such peoples as the Paiute, Shoshoni, Hopi, Pima, Yaqui, Tepehuan, Rarámuri (Tarahumara), Kiowas and Mayas.

GreenQuest Lawn
02-25-2003, 10:36 AM
SOOOOOOOOOOO..........let me get this straight from all this reading........

It’s not ok to drop my illegal immigrants, that I pay cash to, off at Wal-Mart to do their shopping????????

I am confused now........
































:D HAHAHA....good reading though.

Organix
02-25-2003, 10:39 AM
I wouldn't Walmart will steal em away from you hehehehhe

The Mowerdude
02-25-2003, 12:27 PM
Not only that, but if they, in any way, bolster our economy by spending their money here, then we'll have to find another reason NOT to like them. If we're not careful, we'll run out of reasons. We wouldn't want that to happen.:D

brucec32
02-25-2003, 04:26 PM
No doubt, American work ethic sucks, but not all Americans are that way. And not all immigrants are hard workers, either, though they do temporarily have a lot more "INCENTIVE" to work since they need the money more and relative to their homeland incomes this is big money they're making. Studies have also shown that by the 3rd generation, the immigrant worth ethic advantage has completely disappeared. So the benefit is temporary.

The key to igniting American workers again is providing them with the proper INCENTIVE to work harder and more responsibly relative to traditional US wage levels via:

1. increased wages caused by cutting off immigration spigot to a manageable trickle.
2. the de-stigmatization of manual labor, currently it's seen as work for losers only. Why? Because it pays diddly squat and is perceived as being done only by immigrants who can't speak English.
3. Improved employee morale from higher wages and less social stigma to doing 'lowly jobs" will have some positive effect on work ethic, although bad habits take many years to unlearn, and many will remain lazy. But even a lazy man may decide it's worth getting up and going to work for $40,000 a year, vs. the miserable existance he faces if he doesn't.
4. Decrease role of nanny state welfare type programs that provide incentives NOT to work regularly and well. Also related, many unemployment insurance beneficiaries have collected for 18 months now! Why go work for $400/week (less FICA, taxes, etc) when you can sit at home watching TV for $250?

Hispanic workers are generally reliable vs. low wage American workers, but they are not exactly fast workers, either. I see just as much shovel leaning, talking, goofing off, etc, when their boss isn't there as with Americans. Many of you guys hiring them don't know this, since being human, they perk up and work harder when the boss is there. My family is in the building business and I pay attention in my own business...that's how I know. Only the abysmally low standards of low paid US workers make hispanic workers seem so great in comparison. Stereotypes work both ways. Not all Americans are lazy and not all immigrants are noble hard workers.

Hispanic immigrants are statistically more likely to be involved in criminal behaviors(exclusive of their sometimes illegal presence here) than Americans. I assume this is partly because they are predominantly young males, which skews the figures some, and also because it's not like we're getting the cream of their crop. Successful educated Mexicans aren't moving here in similar numbers as uneducated, illiterate, or even criminally wanted ones. Would you rather "disappear" accross the border and go work construction in America for mucho dinero or spend 10 years in a Mexican prison?

"Hispanic" is a often misunderstood term, anyway. It doesn't represent a race (many hispanics are mestizo, many are black, many are white, many are other mixes). It doesn't represent a language. Many "hispanics" speak only English, many speak Portugese, many even Japanese! People are people, and good hard working honest people are deserving of our respect, but some countries are a mess socially and culturally. I just feel importing them in anything other than small numbers, just as laborers, is a receipe for social unrest and even civil war down the line. Cultures and values around the world do differ. Shouldn't the citizens of a country have a right to decide who joins them? So the idea that anti-immigration theories are "racist" is ridiculous.

Try http://www.aztlan.net for more fun articles on how many of our Mexican brothers just love us and how much they respect "American" values. It reads like some kind of revolutionary manifesto.


Bring enough of them here as substitutes for improved technology (how often have you seen 6 immigrant workers with shovels doing what one man with a Dingo could do?) and competition for labor (people at McDonald's make $6.15/hour only because there are immigrants willing to work for that, not because they're "worth" only that) and it will reach a point in numbers where THEY will call the shots in America, and at that point you may not have a peaceable method of keeping things the way you like them.

Why? Because prior to the recent wave of mass immigration, Americans, with noted exceptions, were treated primarily as individuals, fully assimilated, and didn't think in terms of group interests. You didn't see English groups protesting Italian groups or Hungarian lobbies fighting against French rights. Now, each ethic/cultural group has banded together for more power and this threatens our way of life. Prior to the recent mass immigration, people from Mexico and South and Central America assimilated into the culture, and other than a sometimes healthy tan look, nobody knew or cared where they were from. Ever hear of Bob Villa? You think he's got similar prospects in life as a spanish-only speaking Guatamalan who can't read or write who you've put behind a push mower?

The Mowerdude
02-25-2003, 05:57 PM
WOW, long post!

dougmartin2003
08-17-2003, 03:10 PM
ok here is my 2 cents so dont get mad at me. i am not racist i dont care who comes into the country. that is there right. my main grip is the federal government. we go to another country and blow the heck out of it and then give them money to rebuild it. what a bunch of baloney.there is so much help out there for minorities but there is no help for the man. it seems like the government will help those who can work but they wont help the ones who will work. i have a cousin who hurt is back(so he said) and got on disabilty just like that but my mother who is 67 yrs old had to fight for hers 4 four years to get it. 8 years ago when i got married i was laid off of work for 1 month me and wife went to apllie for food stamps and they said they could give us $12.00 a month. i told them they could keep their 12.00 i will go mow lawns and make more so i started my lawn care bussiness and never looked back. so in my opinion on the mexicans, god bless them they are hard workers just so long as they dont try and mess with my wife like they have been trying to do here:blob1:

chuckwk
08-17-2003, 03:19 PM
"my main grip is the federal government. we go to another country and blow the ---- out of it and then give them money to rebuild it. what a bunch of crap."

I think doing that "puts them in our pocket" ... its tearing down a dictator and rebuilding a democracy. (IMO)

bobbygedd
08-17-2003, 06:27 PM
chuck, the other pic was much nicer looking. american workers are not taught pride, self respect, and how, by doing well u can advance.instead, they are "beat down", they have the fear factor, "do a good job, or u will be fired, your kids will starve, what are ya gonna do, flip hamburgers for a living.?" ill take a mexican any day over a white boy. at least if the mexican tries to bone you, u can say, "you ever hear of the department of immigration?" that gets em movin

Mueller Landscape Inc
08-17-2003, 06:42 PM
Given enough time, the illegal Mexicans will drive most of you owner operator types out of business.

TRex
08-17-2003, 06:57 PM
I have to jump into this one because I live in Texas where it is first stop for mexican immigrants. I have worked with them on a lot of jobs and traveled with them on jobs doing construction. About half of the population in my town is of hispanic descent 1/4 of those are illegal, My main problem with the illegals is that they have no respect for anyone not even themselves. And most of them don't even work hard and try to make an easy buck. I think the border should be tightly regulated and the ones who do have the work ethic we need, are the ones who will find the legal way to come to the USA and any one here should be proud of it and have to work for it if not already here. My grandparents waited at a harbor for three years with two kids before they could escape hitler and they came here legally. I am not racist but feel like I am some times because half the police reports in my town are hispanic and I all to often see 4 or 5 kids and infants not buckled up I have a 1 year old boy and I would never take that chance NEVER. Its all about respect of the USA. And I am drinking a Corona Extra trying to help support the mexican economy right now. :cool: PEACE

Doc Pete
08-17-2003, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by Mueller Landscape Inc
Given enough time, the illegal Mexicans will drive most of you owner operator types out of business.

I really feel it's much simpler than that. Eventually there will be more people than jobs needed (in the USA)... OR, it will take too much time for the rest of the world to catch up to the economy in which there's a "living wage", and though the other countries will have people to work, they will not be paid enough to survive. Obviously, that's why they are coming to this country in the first place..........

dvmcmrhp52
08-17-2003, 07:17 PM
AHHHHHHH The beauty of it all.
I just got HAMMERED for suggesting that hiring non citizens was out of greed.
And somone has spoken the truth about most aliens in this country even though they have papers still being illegals.
All I can say is DUUUHHHHH!
AztclanLC,I am not racist I just believe in protecting the sovereignty of this great country.Nothing and I mean NOTHING personal BUT illegal is just that,Illegal!

chuckwk
08-17-2003, 07:30 PM
bobbygedd, that was my little man... he's awesome!

bobbygedd
08-17-2003, 07:33 PM
and this one is you?

chuckwk
08-18-2003, 05:49 PM
LOL, yea that's me.. sometime a couple of years ago.

azturfpro
08-18-2003, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by ProLandscapes
JohnyNCA,

We have a double standard when it comes to race in the good old USofA and that is white man either shutup or you are through, everyone else say what's on your mind.

Josh You said a mouthfull there . I have seen the quality of workmanship decline in the last ten years because of a workforce of people that should not even be in this country . I employ 150 of them and it is a constant fight to get the job done right . I have a few good guys that care but most don't , they are just here to cause trouble and demand more money for p*** poor work at best . Heaven forbid you hurt their feelings as they will paint you a racist .

azturfpro
08-18-2003, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by Mueller Landscape Inc
Given enough time, the illegal Mexicans will drive most of you owner operator types out of business. It happens in Arizona every day . I glad to see that at least a couple people here get it .

bobbygedd
08-18-2003, 06:25 PM
man chuck, last time i saw a picture of a guy that looked like that, there were a whole bunch of numbers under it.

chuckwk
08-18-2003, 09:57 PM
Yea, I seen a guy like that one time to, he was on Americas Most Wanted.

work_it
08-19-2003, 12:55 AM
Whatever the case may be, my experience is that hispanics outwork americans hands down. When I hire someone I don't want to be the one doing 80% of the labor. I'm an extremely hard worker, and don't believe in taking breaks. I do let my labor take breaks, but don't want to be taken advantage of either. I've never had that problem with hispanics. In fact, they're the only ones I've hired that outwork me. I'm so tired of all these stupid little white/black (american citizens) demanding respect. If you want my respect.....EARN IT!

One other thing. When I ask an employee to do something the only thing I want to hear is "OK" as they're on their way to do it.
Talk back to me, and I'll pay you your wages for the week on the spot. Then you can afford to pay the taxi driver to take you home.
I've only run into this problem with "legal citizens". Go figure!

Frosty_03
08-19-2003, 01:21 AM
I have read all of your post on this subject and I must say some were very colorful and interesting. I think I got a good history lesson here. I think what it all boils down to is PRIDE!!!. Now this is my opinion and I have one just like everyone else. First I am an American of Mexican decent, now I say American because I was born and raised here just like everyone else that is American. I am a U S Navy Veteran who served my country honorably for 26 years. I have seen and learn alot over my 26 years in the Navy. But as I said before it is all about PRIDE!!!. If you pride yourself on your work than you should not worry yourself about the illegals and anybody else. Let me tell you all that we have a good thing in this business of ours and there is plenty of grass and plant and irrigation thats need to be done, and not one race or ethnic background is better than the other, we just think we are, but that is what makes things interesting. There have been alot of good and bad thing said about the Mexicans, but we have to remember that all races have good and bad, I remember when I was in school and then in collage, I would get ridicule by my own race for trying to better myself and I would also get ridicule by the whites folk too, but I took it all with a grain of salt, because there were also the other whites and Mexicans that had the same vision I was pursuing and that was to get a education. So I think that it is nice to read what I have protected over the last 26 years of my life. FREEDOM!!!!! No matter who you are or where you come from this country stands behind you if you want to be FREE!!!! This next Statement is for the guy who said that a Mexican would run from this country if war broke out here. I think you should take a trip up to Chicago and walk down a very special street there and tell all those Mexicans parents who lost their sons in Vietnam, that their sons died in vein. Mexicans have contributed alot more to this country than just cutting grass. And they all did it with PRIDE!!!! This might shock you that the first admiral the Navy had was Hispanic. I hope that I have made myself clear on PRIDE!!!! Remember failure is part of success, don't blame others for your misfortunes. Yes Legal means get a license, have insurance and make sure you workers are documented. Three very simple things. JUST DO IT!!!!! AND DO IT WITH PRIDE!!!!!! RESPECT OTHERS AS YOU WOULD WANT THEM TO RESPECT YOU!!!!!! GOD SPEED!!!!!!:cool: