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Zohan
04-28-2012, 08:16 PM
Kichler transformer spec sheet says not rated for fixtures in water with humans..or something like that....
I need to put a couple LED Underwater lights into a waterfall that spills into a pool....i was always assuming it is safe, but why the disclaimer on transformer, and is it actually not safe?

emby
04-28-2012, 09:46 PM
Hey Zohan,

Check this thread out, it might help you out. Also just do a search on Pool and Spa rated transformers and a ton of threads will come up with valuable information.
Hope this helps

Ken

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=359034&highlight=Pool+Spa+rated+Transformers

S&MLL
04-28-2012, 11:04 PM
Doesn't matter if the transformer is rated for. If your fixture isnt rated for human contact aka swimming pool then your fixture wont work. Im quality of putting 1 or 2 underwater lights in a koi pond on a standard transformer. But you wont find me using underwater lights in a waterfall for pool. Unless its a pentair or jandy or something pool rated..... Thats why we have fiber optics for pools

David Gretzmier
04-28-2012, 11:34 PM
should be spa and pool rated, but gotta tell you, seen tons of them installed by pool companies, and I am very unimpressed by the quality and feel of these "rated" trans. they look super cheap.

Zohan
04-29-2012, 02:50 AM
im confused....the lights are rated for underwater use so no problem there. Question is do i need a transformer that is rated for use with water fixtures that will be in a human contact area?
Worried about a safety issue...

I will check the link too...thx

Richie@
04-29-2012, 08:57 AM
im confused....the lights are rated for underwater use so no problem there. Question is do i need a transformer that is rated for use with water fixtures that will be in a human contact area?
Worried about a safety issue...

I will check the link too...thx

NEC 680.23(A)(2)

Transformers used to supply underwater luminaries must be listed as a swimming pool and spa transformer — and be of the isolating-winding type with a grounded metal barrier between the primary and secondary windings [680.23(A)(2)]. Branch circuits that supply underwater luminaries greater than 15V must be GFCI protected [680.23(A)(3)].

In 680.2, the NEC defines three general categories of underwater luminaries. Specifics, such as the wiring methods allowed to the forming shell and bonding requirements, are included for each type as follows:

* Wet-niche [680.23(B)].
* Dry-niche [680.23(C)].
* No-niche [680.23(D)].

Lite4
04-29-2012, 09:08 AM
Doesn't matter if the transformer is rated for. If your fixture isnt rated for human contact aka swimming pool then your fixture wont work. Im quality of putting 1 or 2 underwater lights in a koi pond on a standard transformer. But you wont find me using underwater lights in a waterfall for pool. Unless its a pentair or jandy or something pool rated..... Thats why we have fiber optics for pools

Don't let the nut jobs at PETA find out out that you could unwittingly zap some goldfish with your non-human rated light fixtures. They love to assign human status and attributes to animals and sue everyone (but the dog) for it. Animals good, humans bad. :'(

Zohan
04-29-2012, 10:07 AM
Ok, great info guys thanks....
what I had planned on using (among other fixtures) was this http://www.landscapelighting.com/portal/products/detail/15711SS

and this http://www.landscapelighting.com/portal/products/detail/15PR900SS

but I guess thats a no go now. If I want to still do the pool waterfall I have 2 options
1. Put the fixtures along sides of waterfall instead of under the water
2. use a separate transformer rated for this

S&MLL
04-29-2012, 10:29 AM
There was a company that produced 12volt lighting fixtures for humnan contact. They are very expensive but try looking up nexxan or a company with a similar name. Pentair, jandy, hayward all make lights but most need to be in a niche. Not a free standing fixture.
Posted via Mobile Device

Zohan
04-29-2012, 11:20 AM
I haven't done any waterfall lights yet, so I ask you guys, if I put the lights right next to the stones where the water flows over will that look good at night or will it not work?

David Gretzmier
04-29-2012, 03:50 PM
lighting in any kind of water is tricky and difficult to guess even with pictures and experience. once you have the properly rated trans ( and I would also make sure you are on a 100% functioning GFCI outlet on top of that) then the best way is to take your fixtures and try them in different positions at night with the waterfall going. you'll get wet, so try to do it on a warmer night with polyester athlete ( under armor or others ) type clothing. it drys pretty fast.

Zohan
04-29-2012, 04:45 PM
lighting in any kind of water is tricky and difficult to guess even with pictures and experience. once you have the properly rated trans ( and I would also make sure you are on a 100% functioning GFCI outlet on top of that) then the best way is to take your fixtures and try them in different positions at night with the waterfall going. you'll get wet, so try to do it on a warmer night with polyester athlete ( under armor or others ) type clothing. it drys pretty fast.

Thank you for the tips...If you're interested i'll keep you posted

Zohan
04-29-2012, 06:22 PM
WAIT.....
The pdf of the trans says it has submersible rating.....
What do you think

http://www.landscapelighting.com/opencms/opencms/system/galleries/pdf/ll_spec_sheet/landscape/15PR900.pdf

Zohan
04-29-2012, 08:42 PM
Never mind....

S&MLL
04-29-2012, 08:54 PM
WAIT.....
The pdf of the trans says it has submersible rating.....
What do you think

http://www.landscapelighting.com/opencms/opencms/system/galleries/pdf/ll_spec_sheet/landscape/15PR900.pdf

Zohan your main issues is fixtures. I dont care what transformer you run because your fixtures are not rated for human contact

Zohan
04-29-2012, 09:20 PM
Ok, im getting it now.... :)
So the kichler trans is fine to use with a fixture like this http://www.pondandgardenwholesalers.com/servlet/the-177/Little-Giant-pond-light/Detail

Or
I need to use regular fixtures but 10' away from pool water

S&MLL
04-29-2012, 09:55 PM
Ok, im getting it now.... :)
So the kichler trans is fine to use with a fixture like this http://www.pondandgardenwholesalers.com/servlet/the-177/Little-Giant-pond-light/Detail

Or
I need to use regular fixtures but 10' away from pool water



Okay I will try to make this easy. Anytime you have a fixture in water by nec it must use a ul listed trans for ponds and spas. But the kicker is companies like Kichler and Focus and whoever else do not make fixtures rated for human contact. So say your customer has a koi pond and they want light. then you can use all the underwater lights and use a trans rated for water. but If it has human contact (pool,waterfall into pool, waterfall into hot tub) then you need the proper fixture. And the link you posted with the 40 dollar diy junk is not that. I know it says rated for pools but somehow I highly doubt that. Maybe a pool a human doesn't swim in :hammerhead:

Like I said earlier jandy,pentair and a bunch of others make fixtures rated for pools (generally speaking they get installed in a niche) There are a few companies that make 12volt fixtures rated for human contact. I believe one of them is Nexxan or Nixxen. I also believe they carry a list price that exceeds $800 a fixture.

Send me your number via a private message. Might be easier to explain over the phone

Zohan
04-29-2012, 10:02 PM
I do get it now, sorry for confusion....i am abondoning idea of putting lights into waterfall, i will probably put next to waterfall shining in, and hope it looks good...but in doing this it looks like i cant use the kichler trans, its rated submersible but not pool/spa.
Im going back onsite tomorrow to check it out again
Thanks for the help

S&MLL
04-29-2012, 10:16 PM
http://www.illuminfx.com/


Many of us have used it. Fiberstars has full blown LED models now Maybe one day AJ will to. But the 150watt halide still packs a great punch

Zohan
04-29-2012, 10:19 PM
Thanks, but the project is sold at the proposed amount...can you pm me with approx. cost for that