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View Full Version : OK, let me try this one more time Ö


Bluesteel
12-20-2002, 12:59 AM
I would like to have a discussion about possible solutions to ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS running cut-rate low quality lawn-care services. In hopes of preserving our standard of living. My previous post ended up totally off topic. Good grief, if someone asked what time it is, some of you guys would start arguing about how to build a watch!

What is off topic?

1. Personal experiences or opinions, on what race of worker is the most productive. If you automatically believe a Mexican is superior to an American (or vise-versa) based on nationality or genetic traits alone, YOU ARE A RACIST. I never mentioned any particular nationality or race. Besides, Americans come in all shapes, sizes, and colors.
2. Scabs, locusts, the plague, or any problem OTHER than Illegal Immigrants/Aliens. Want to talk about some of those problems? Then start another topic!

Hoping to start an intelligent dialog on the subject at hand, let me repeat:

Iím pretty new to the lawn care business, and just read a post about someone wanting to start a union in their area to keep lawn service prices from falling. Iíve been a member of 4 different unions and am totally against them as a result. Never the less, something Iíve been considering lately is the effect of illegal immigrants on our business.

Genetic traits are next to invisible to me, but cultural differences arenít. Iíve heard of astonishing numbers of people sneaking into to our country doing the jobs ďnobody wants to do.Ē If theyíre willing to live with 5 room-mates to one apartment and eat rice and beans every day, theyíre not just lowering prices, but our standard of living as well.

One local guy (of questionable citizenship) advertises $20 for any lawn up to an acre! And his work looks just as bad as you could imagine. I have no problem with that price. If his customers are that cheap, most of us would never work for them anyway. Those guys come and go. Besides, heís showing a lack of business sense and will never be able to make enough money to last. But if heís not here legally, then *$## yes I have a problem with that price.

Everyoneís got a sob-story; poor immigrants that came from dire circumstances, customers on a fixed income, LCOís that canít make payments on their new Dixie Chopper without $5/hr labor, etc. etc. This is business, not charity. If someone wants to give price breaks to selected customers, fine. All Iím talking about is fair competition and enforcement of the law. Iím wondering what would be an effective way to make it difficult for illegal immigrants.

More government is a bad thing. But should all LCOís be licensed to prove citizenship? No fee, just proof that youíre legal. That way, if you suspect a crew is not competing fairly, you could find out where they operate out of, and send and enforcement officer to check.

Suggestions?

LAWNGODFATHER
12-20-2002, 01:04 AM
This is the wrong place to be discussing this.

you need to write your congressmen.

McKeeLand
12-20-2002, 01:36 AM
I have no clue what ur talking about! I've never seen so called illegal imigrants haveing their own LCO. For one thing, if they are here illegally, they are trying to keep a low profile, not placing ads in papers offering lawn service.
What i do know is that Mexicans are the hardest working employes that i've ever had. they work hard, long hours, show up every day and work for wages that allow me to surrvive in business. and no not $2-$3 per hour, but $8-$10. They are a invaluable asset to the green industry and i feel most of us wouldn't not be as successful as we are with out them.

In all honesty i think you should take this discussion somewhere else.

rod r
12-20-2002, 02:48 AM
Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) has a nice site might learn something there that could help you.

devildog
12-20-2002, 05:15 AM
Originally posted by LAWNGODFATHER
This is the wrong place to be discussing this.

you need to write your congressmen.

I concur, furthermore, were it not for the presence of immigrants (legal or ilegal) our nations economy would be much worst than it is at this moment. Our nation has seen numerours periods throughout history where immigrants, mostly illegal, carries the economy thru hard times. This point in time being one of them.

Step back and take a fresh perspective, does it really make a difference........"One local guy (of questionable citizenship) advertises $20 for any lawn up to an acre! And his work looks just as bad as you could imagine. I have no problem with that price. If his customers are that cheap, most of us would never work for them anyway. Those guys come and go. Besides, heís showing a lack of business sense and will never be able to make enough money to last. But if heís not here legally, then *$## yes I have a problem with that price. "........if this guy is making twenty bucks a mow, SO WHAT, is he talking clients from you? MUST BE .......!

If our nation has a period of good growth ahead, it will be fueled by immigrants. Its reality, I'd suggest you get over this and move on. With Regards...DEVILDOG

David Haggerty
12-20-2002, 09:03 AM
If you are aware of any ill eagles you should contact these folks:
Raptor Rehabilitation Center

Hawkeye5
12-20-2002, 09:24 AM
Raptor Rehabitilation Center for ill eagles?? Thats a hoot!! I guess this means we are off topic already.

cst51
12-20-2002, 11:27 AM
Actually, eagles are not raptors at all. They belong to the class Aves which evolved during the great reptilian radiation of the mesozoic era. The radiation of amniotes (egg laying organisms) gave rise to a diversity of terrestrial forms, including dinosaurs. So, birds in general seem to be an extant group of flying "reptiles"!!! So to say that eagles are a raptor would be an incorrect statement seeing that the Aves class evolved from early reptiles which raptors belong. Maybe call it Acute Aves disabilities??

AztlanLC
12-20-2002, 11:46 AM
cst51

woooow that's some valuable information.

Bluesteel
12-20-2002, 11:57 AM
Thanks guys, your helpful insights sound like everything Iíve come to expect from those with years of government training. Iíve learned that Illegal Immigrants are really a great benefit to our economy. They have to be, since thatís what they tell us on the CBS evening news, and you guys have to know what youíre talking about. In fact, theyíre not really illegal, theyíre actually ďUndocumented Immigrants.Ē Something else Iíve learned here is that I havenít really seen what Iíve seen with my own eyes. What I actually saw, is what some of you think Iíve seen. Next time I need to build a watch, Iíll ask you guys what time it is.

Mueller Landscape Inc
12-20-2002, 12:17 PM
Bluesteel,

I think that part of the answer that you are looking for was in the last thread you started. You suggested a "license" to prove that you are legal. Where I live I used to be able to contact INS and check to see if a greencard and SS# was legit. Not anymore. They will not give that info out anymore. Probably because they are collecting taxes that they know they will not have to pay back. That is what Aztlan said and he is correct. The only people that can turn this whole scam around is our government. And one thing that you can do is contact your congressman as was suggested. You could start a grassroots campaign too but be forwarned....you will be labeled a "racist". That is wrong but it is a reality.

I believe that a better strategy would be to learn how to compete through marketing and selling yourself and your business.

However, if your main calling is life is to fix the wrong that you have stated, then go for it and ride the course. Someone will have to this someday anyway.

By the way, the last topic went south because a few of us were offended when you were labeled a "racist".

Bluesteel
12-20-2002, 12:51 PM
MLC,

Thanks for the sincere topical reply, this is a first! Anyway, I have plenty of business, enough that I don't advertise, and am in a position where I can be selective about customers. Never the less, Illegal Immigration is a huge problem and I was bringing it up in an off-topic response to another post. Instead of being rude and taking that post off-topic, I chose to post my own. In that other post, someone wanted to preserve the price structure in their area by starting a union. Unions were a good thing at on time, but now they're just perverted, protecting turf, lack of productivity, and corruption.

Thanks also for the warning about being labeled. It was the first response to my other post. Name calling and personal insults can be looked at from a positive light though. As long as you keep your cool, its easy to see that the people who resort to screaming have lost the argument. They have no logical defense to their point, and can only attack the messenger.

I was hoping to get some people motivated in order to multiply the effect of contacting my own representative. However, I realize this is not the place to discuss intellectual things. There are a few rational people here. But most would rather talk about how their mower is da best, cuz datz the one they got. And then there are always those who try to look intelligent by playing the role of "gun-slinger," sitting back and shooting down other's ideas.

Paradise Yard Service
12-20-2002, 02:19 PM
Howzit Brah!

This may put things in perspective a little.

Two caterpillers were crawling across the grass when a butterfly flew over them. They looked up, and one nudged the other and said: "you couldn't get me up in one of those things for a million dollars!"

So, don't be surprised to find an unexpected turn in your present situation in business and dealing with undocumented workers. My own opinion...this country won't do didly about these ones in sufficient number to stem the tide, therefore I have only one viable solution that has worked for me time and again.
BE A MASTER IN THIS INDUSTRY. You seem to have the wherewithall to take your business to new levels while the lowballers will come and go. You will waste less time and energy on undocumented workers encroaching on business. And focus on the real issue you have control over, your business as an LCO.

My experience in lawn biz has proven this formula over and over. Focus on your business, be open for change and change what you can (some have said write your congressman).

In the meantime hone your skills, increase your reserves of technical know how (its constantly changing in this biz) and you will prosper. As a former 'union man' hopefully that was impressed upon you.

Aloha,

P.Y.S.

Love Thy Neighbor
12-20-2002, 03:37 PM
BLUESTEEL

Can you please explain to everyone how do you know that these workers are illegal immigrants. How do you know they are immigrants period. You should concentrate on getting to know your competition a little better and maybe you could network with them or subcontract some of your work at a low price.

I hope you're not assuming because they cut for a cheap price and are not so much into capitalism that they just have to be illegal. Eat beans & rice and stay 5 people to a one bedroom apartment? You must have been over to visit. They may eat steaks.Who told you that was the living arrangements?

Who's the Racist? Please, You sound like that guy Lott. Now I bet in your next reply you dont give specifics on how you know these people so well.

ohh I forgot. " SOME OF MY BEST FRIENDS ARE *****".

Look Deep into yourself and ask. Am I truly concerned about this business or does it bother me to see ****** getting a little bit of money & being visible in my neighborhoods.

I was trying to understand you until that Beans & rice and 5 in a one bedroom comment. See ya Strohm Thurmann

Love Thy Neighbor
12-20-2002, 03:56 PM
I've heard of astonishing numbers of people sneaking into our country doing the jobs " nobody wants to do " If they're willing to live with 5 room mates to one apartment and eat rice and beans everyday. They're not just lowering prices but our standard of living as well.

Is there anyone else here that sees this as offensive no matter what race or creed you are from. What a stereo type!!!!

Next time Bluesteel just stick to Lawncare questions and you won't get so much heat for being the way you are. :mad:

Bluesteel
12-20-2002, 05:47 PM
LTN,

Illegal Immigrants? What are you talking about?

Love Thy Neighbor
12-20-2002, 08:18 PM
Read your original discussion thread.
It will be the first one that starts off this whole thing.
You even wrote illegal immigrants in caps.

The other thing is a quote that I got from you,
unless someone is claiming to be you.

Flex-Deck
12-20-2002, 08:36 PM
It all boils down to having the right equipment to compete in the market place and still make a very nice profithttp://Wide Deck

Bob Minney
12-20-2002, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by Flex-Deck
It all boils down to having the right equipment to compete in the market place and still make a very nice profithttp://Wide Deck

:D ;)

The Mowerdude
12-20-2002, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by Love Thy Neighbor
.....illegal immigrants in caps.....

Illegal or not, around here they wear a whole lot more than just their caps. But sometimes, their caps are on backwards. :D



I have a cap on my tooth.......it's on forwards.

odin
12-20-2002, 09:26 PM
This guy is like a old blue tick hound on a bone, he dont want to let go.

The Mowerdude
12-20-2002, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by Bluesteel
My previous post ended up totally off topic. Good grief, if someone asked what time it is, some of you guys would start arguing about how to build a watch!

Bluesteel, with all due respect, if you want to have an intellectual discussion, you really shouldn't scold us or act condescending.

That first thread got "off-topic" only according to YOU. Personally, I thought it stayed ON topic quite well. You asked some questions on that thread that are very complex and there are no quick, easy, knee-jerk answers. The issue is extremely complicated.

If you're going to be here, get used to us not walking on eggshells for fear of offending your frail sensibilities. These topics are like soccer balls. They get kicked around and who knows where they'll end up? Personally, I like it that way. It makes it all very interesting.

Mueller Landscape Inc
12-20-2002, 11:27 PM
Quote;


"I've heard of astonishing numbers of people sneaking into our country doing the jobs " nobody wants to do " If they're willing to live with 5 room mates to one apartment and eat rice and beans everyday. They're not just lowering prices but our standard of living as well."


I have personally seen this occure. I have been a guest at some of my employees homes. They can be, and are, frugal because they have to be. It cost a lot of money to live in Southern California. Around here a 1500 sq ft home will sell for over $300,000 dollars and a 2 bedroom apartment will rent for $800 to $1000 per month. When you are making $7 to $10 per hour you do what you have to do.

Bluesteel
12-21-2002, 02:11 AM
Mowerdude,

Sorry if I offended you. And you know I mean that (with all due respect). lol

The Mowerdude
12-21-2002, 02:39 AM
I wasn't offended at all.

And to get back to the post that you started THIS thread with;

I don't really beleive that all that many LCOs view Mexicans as superior workers based on generic traits. But instead, over a period of time, the percentage of hard workers from one ethnic group tend to "open doors" for future brethren. After all, if I have an excellent track record with Mexicans, I tend to let my guard down when I meet a new one.

There is a Mexican LCO here. He's one of the lowballingest guys around. He'll beat anyone's prices and NOT by a little. And his work is not all that bad. He has 3 crews. They drive 3 new diesel trucks, have fairly new mowers and claim in excess of 300 residential customers. This guy has come in and literally taken over entire subdivisions. Also, if you find a niche and he sees you doing it, he'll be doing the same thing within a very short time. He's the most "monkey see monkey do" guy I've ever seen. And he'll do it cheaper.

I went to the license office to see if he was legit, or a scrub. He's legit. He's legal and he's obviously got some pretty serious money backing him up. In the last 5 years, I think that every LCO buddy I've got has lost a serious amount of business to this guy. One of the worst things about it is that when our customers dropped us for him, they treated us like we were dishoneslty gouging them. That really hurt. He's a HUGE thorn in our sides, but there doesn't seem to be a darn thing that any of us can LEGALLY do to him. Yeah, we know where he lives and could burn him out, but hey, only in our dreams, you know?

The only course of action that we have is to try and out advertise and outcompete on quality. As I said earlier, his quality isn't bad, but it's not stellar either. We simply have to search out the customer that is willing to pay more for our quality and dependability. I'm not happy about it, but I really don't have any choice.

Thing is though, sooner or later, I know from experience that lowballing has a tendency to bite you in the butt. I'm wondering when it's going to happen to him. Or even IF it will happen to him. I'm really curious to see how this guy will fare after his equipment is shot and he hasn't charged enough to replace it. But then, who knows? Maybe the guy's doing it right.

BTW, this guy came here from California. If he isn't reeled in, we're going to have the same situation here that I'm reading about out there. Yeah, I'm a little nervous.