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kirk1701
05-06-2012, 11:00 AM
Hey everyone, didn't see anywhere else to put this so hope you guys can help.

I have 3 Kousa dogwoods across the front of the house, the 2 at each end are lovely, dark green and blooming now. The one in the middle, also blooming but not as noticeable because the leaves are a lighter tone of green almost looks sick as if its missing something?

All 3 got triple 19 put around them in February so it don't need fertilizer and we've had plenty of rain also; any idea's?

Thanks.

Think Green
05-06-2012, 11:36 AM
Kirk,
You are way over there above Knoxville. Has the temperature's been stable enough back in February to give them triple 19?
I don't give trees, plants, or shrubbery anything but 12/6/6 + minors. My concerns was the fluctuation of temperatures from warm in February to cool in March. These night time temps plummeted down to 40, then the winds started to come with no rains. You said that water wasn't an issue but I can't help but think that dogwoods are so temperamental from fungus, blight, and borer damage that either a seasonal issue or mechanical issue is happening. I have one....Cleveland Select Pear tree that bloomed out wonderfully, then the cool snap hit us again......the blooms fell off and now the tree has 50% leafout and looks sick. The leaves are faded.....no insect damage detected other than possible nutrient deficiency. I am not going to add fert. until we get some well deserved natural rains. Water hose rain is okay but nothing beats mother nature. Check around the trunk for borer exit holes...frass, or other signs of root damage. Water damage may be a problem with too much fertilizer at the time of leafout.

kirk1701
05-06-2012, 12:11 PM
Just took a look, no borer exit holes and we have stayed pretty wet here since I put the fertilizer out. 2 inches actually a week after I put it out and only dry spell we've had was around the first three weeks in march but since then we've got scattered T-Storms for the last week However I noticed this the beginning of March because it was the last of the three tree's to leaf out.

As for the fertilizer; Yes it was a warm winter here, everything was early but I normally fertilize everything the beginning of February with pelleted triple 10 or triple 19 so the rain has plenty of time to soak it in before it starts to bud.

My holly came out beautiful but then we got that frost mid March which killed all the new growth :cry:

Think Green
05-06-2012, 12:42 PM
Right-
I am worried about this season as we are in a drought now. There has been a lot of dead trees , shrubs, and perennials as a result of such a warm winter, not much rainfall, and then the triple set of frosts that we sustained. March was cool, then unseasonably warm.
What worries me is all of the surface roots not benefiting from such increment weather this season. We are in for a lot of mosquito's, aphids, whiteflies, scales, armyworm, cutworm, hormworm, beetles, etc. They all will be in full force a month earlier than before.
Getting back, I feel that weakened root feeders died from temperature fluctuations. Fungus attacks are prevalent on roses........even the knockout varieties are sick looking this year. I didn't start feeding any of my contracts until last week. I waited till the temperature's were well into the new growth stage before I wanted to encourage fungus rot, blight infections.

I meant to tell you to go and check out greenyard.net on the conversions you were looking for on your orchard sprays. I didn't have this site before as I don't do orchard spraying.

Think Green
05-06-2012, 12:57 PM
Kirk,
Is this the first year that this tree has shown signs of decline?
I am wondering if Anthracnose is your culprit. Do you see any signs of purplish blotches or leaf colors starting with the twig and leaf colors.?
Anthracnose will attack the weaker of the trees and then spread to the others. Early Spring is the time to administer Streptomycin Sulfate, for Anthracnose control before and during bloom break. I must have not had my 2nd cup of coffee as this is the problem with my Pear tree............DUH!! I will have to get the Manab or Zinab after it to slow down the problem. You can consider these fungicides if you can still purchase them locally. It is the water on the foliage that strengthens the Anthracnose and polluted water droplets.

PM me later on for more stuff.!!
I will give you my email address too!

kirk1701
05-06-2012, 02:26 PM
Kirk,
Is this the first year that this tree has shown signs of decline?
I am wondering if Anthracnose is your culprit. Do you see any signs of purplish blotches or leaf colors starting with the twig and leaf colors.?
Anthracnose will attack the weaker of the trees and then spread to the others. Early Spring is the time to administer Streptomycin Sulfate, for Anthracnose control before and during bloom break. I must have not had my 2nd cup of coffee as this is the problem with my Pear tree............DUH!! I will have to get the Manab or Zinab after it to slow down the problem. You can consider these fungicides if you can still purchase them locally. It is the water on the foliage that strengthens the Anthracnose and polluted water droplets.

PM me later on for more stuff.!!
I will give you my email address too!


I'll send the PM soon as I reply thanks Think Green.

I tried to get wild dogwoods to grow 3 years in a role and then bought Cherokee princess I believe were the names 2 years after that. All 5 years, Anthracnose hit them or that was what the local extension office said. Thats when I was advised to get the Kousa's as they were amune to Anthracnose so I did, this is the fourth year now I've had them and no issue's till now.

No purplish blotches just leaf colors which are lighter then the other two and one branch which didn't come out this spring and starting to notice as of today the top is dropping leafs.

Attached some pics
First pic is the one in question
second pic is fine but for comparison
third and forth are of the one in question

Coffeecraver
05-06-2012, 08:55 PM
it looks like you have irrigation,when plants are sitting in water they can not take water in.They can die and give you the same symptoms as drought.
This can cause yellowing with the lack of oxygen.Probe down beside the tree and see how much water is in the ground.
Good Luck :)

Think Green
05-07-2012, 12:29 AM
Kirk,
Unless you take a twig sample to the State........the truth will never be said.
I feel that from the blackish lesions on the stems of the 3rd photo is indicative of anthracnose.
As anyone that has a certification in horticulture and a degree in arboriculture may see and agree. Water rot may be the culprit but from the weather conditions at hand and the odd weather cycles, it is a wonder that more trees are infected. One doesn't look too closely at the lesions or leaf malformations at the time of budbreak and leafout stage.
I have noticed all species of native trees in my area with one type of disease, fungus or another. Most people don't take the time, nor do they know what is going on. By the time the damage is noticed............it can be too late and the damage cannot be reversed until next season after the treatments are performed now.

kirk1701
05-07-2012, 10:27 AM
Kirk,
Unless you take a twig sample to the State........the truth will never be said.
I feel that from the blackish lesions on the stems of the 3rd photo is indicative of anthracnose.
As anyone that has a certification in horticulture and a degree in arboriculture may see and agree. Water rot may be the culprit but from the weather conditions at hand and the odd weather cycles, it is a wonder that more trees are infected. One doesn't look too closely at the lesions or leaf malformations at the time of budbreak and leafout stage.
I have noticed all species of native trees in my area with one type of disease, fungus or another. Most people don't take the time, nor do they know what is going on. By the time the damage is noticed............it can be too late and the damage cannot be reversed until next season after the treatments are performed now.

So if I understand you correctly this won't kill it?
I can start treatment now and it will come back fine next season?

See, thing is I was told these tree's were resistant to anthracnose and this is what I was sent by the extension office back in 08 or 09 when the Cherokee princess dogwoods died. Does this make a difference?

http://www.ca.uky.edu/agcollege/plantpathology/ext_files/PPFShtml/PPFS-OR-W-6.pdf

Some trees have genetic resistance
to dogwood anthracnose. Oriental
dogwood (Cornus kousa) is
Anthracnose resistant and should be
considered for high risk sites such as
those with heavy shade and nearby
diseased trees.

Also in the link, LOL and I just sprayed Clearys last week for the brown patch.
If the tree is valuable enough,
fungicide sprays may be warranted.
The active ingredients chlorothalonil
(e.g., Daconil 2787), benomyl,
thiophanate-methyl (Cleary’s 3336),
mancozeb (Fore, Manzate 200), or
propiconazole (Banner) are effective
protectant fungicides.

Coffeecraver
05-07-2012, 06:33 PM
I am not sure what Think Green is trying to get at with his reference to Certified Horticulturist and Certified Arborist.:rolleyes:

But treatment without a proper diagnosis is malpractice.
The Kousa are disease resistant and the leaf spotting is not visible.
The yellowing of leaves indicates a moisture,/ nutrient problem or both.
Without a sample or an onsite visit all anyone can do from photos is guess
That is not proper diagnosis.
It does not take chemical or other treatments to check the ground to see if
the trees are getting too much moisture.
This symptom can also show up with girdling roots.
Get a Certified Arborist to inspect the tree on site and give a positive diagnosis
:)

Think Green
05-07-2012, 09:12 PM
Kirk,
Coffeecraver is right on his points of possible moisture overload and causing chlorosis.
My intentions to you coffeecraver is purely of good intentions so don't get you certifications all in a uproar. I carry 4 certifications but don't need to post them as who is going to check to validate their credibility. This site doesn't do this like another site I was a member of.
You can either contact a Arborist as directed, or take some twig and root samples to your state department for proper identification. I agree, that anyone can sit all day long and make assumptions from photo's. It isn't a credible diagnosis by no means. There can be multiple things going on here to cause one tree out of three to suddenly decline.
I am a laid back easy going guy so.........don't take my being sarcastic to heart. I deal with a whole lot more shark attacks than the members on this site can dish out.

Coffeecraver
05-07-2012, 09:54 PM
Kirk,
Coffeecraver is right on his points of possible moisture overload and causing chlorosis.
My intentions to you coffeecraver is purely of good intentions so don't get you certifications all in a uproar. I carry 4 certifications but don't need to post them as who is going to check to validate their credibility. This site doesn't do this like another site I was a member of.
You can either contact a Arborist as directed, or take some twig and root samples to your state department for proper identification. I agree, that anyone can sit all day long and make assumptions from photo's. It isn't a credible diagnosis by no means. There can be multiple things going on here to cause one tree out of three to suddenly decline.
I am a laid back easy going guy so.........don't take my being sarcastic to heart. I deal with a whole lot more shark attacks than the members on this site can dish out.

It's Cool :)

kirk1701
05-08-2012, 12:33 AM
Thanks guys, thanks to both Think Green & Coffeecraver (like that screen name by the way)

I got to thinking and didn't think it was anthracnose which was why I posted the link in my last reply. Took me a while to remember back but with the trouble I did have with previous dogwoods thats why I went with the Kousa's.

First, I've been thinking here for the last month or so it was the triple 19 and I put to much around it in February and I burned it but if that were the case it would be dead by now am I correct?

Second, moisture; I didn't know what to do as we've had plenty a rain like I said but as you can see from the pic's the yard is on a hill and a lot runs off but regardless I think its got it's share of water and maybe then some, but still against my better judgment I kept hearing "OH IT NEEDS WATER" :dizzy:

She's the boss so I put the water hose on slow and left it for an hour or two but didn't make a difference, no change.

I still like Coffeecraver's recommendation which I've been saying all spring its missing something, some nutrient but had no idea what or how to find out other then taking a limb to the extension office and I've been hoping the problem would fix itself without having to go that route. We had a tree trimmer cut some limbs back two weeks ago and he took a look and said could be to much water also but should clear up when we got some warmer weather.

We'll, we got some warmer weather the last 7 days so I started getting pro active now.

So now the question becomes, where do I find a Arborist? What do I look under in the phone book or should I start with local place I know called Lambs tree service which advertises tree diagnosis?

Coffeecraver
05-08-2012, 06:19 AM
I could not find one in Bowling Green ,maybe one of these are local enough to help you.
Clinton, Paul
Beechwood Trees & Gardens O'Bryan, Christopher
CRESTWOOD, KY Limbwalker Tree Svc
40014 LOUISVILLE, KY
PH: 502/241-0471 40203
PH: 502-376-8792

Petry, Cory Danka, Joseph A
Limbwalker Tree Service Danka Tree Care Co.
LOUISVILLE, KY LOUISVILLE, KY
40203 40213
PH: (502) 634-0400 PH: 502-797-7003

Devine Jr., Gary L Loewen, Joshua
LOUISVILLE, KY Green Tree Arborcare
40216 LOUISVILLE, KY
PH: (502)708-0751 40207
PH: 502-438-8897

Powell, Timothy Sharman, Jason
Limbwalker Tree Service VitaliTree, LLC
LOUISVILLE, KY LOUISVILLE, KY
40203 40269
PH: (502) 634-0400 PH: 502-689-1390
Or perhaps you could take a sample to one of these local Extension agents Edmonson County Extension Office
116 Mohawk Street, Brownsville, KY
(270) 597-3628 ‎

Simpson County Extension Services
300 North Main Street, Franklin, KY
(270) 586-4484

Good Luck :)

kirk1701
05-08-2012, 08:01 AM
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/abs724/Smilies%20Hut/thanks.gif Coffeecraver (having my coffee now)

Franklin is close enough, but that gives me an idea to call the local extension office and start there to see if there is one more local.

By the way, another half inch of rain last night and still raining, give you any clue's?

Been like this all spring and that 3 week stretch when there was no rain was when my mom told me it needed water and of course I finally gave in and put the water hose on it. http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/abs724/Smilies%20Hut/banghead2.gif

kirk1701
05-08-2012, 08:13 AM
Here's the place I was refering to, and I only know of this one because of a segment on the local news last fall where they were interviewed on the tree's in the area dying.

http://www.lambtreeandstump.com/services.html

•Tree injection ~ save your trees!
Free tree analysis
and diagnostic.

He came out, looked at our 150' tall oaks and wanted to do the tree injection on all 5 and $700 :confused:

We said no thanks, put a 40Lb bag of triple 10 in the landscaping last fall and the oaks are fine.

kirk1701
05-08-2012, 08:24 AM
And this just came back in an e-mail:

These are kousa dogwoods so I would not expect anthracnose. I'm not sure what is causing the blight on entire stems. The foliage symptoms look like nutrient deficient, maybe magnesium. It would probably be best to submit another plant and soil sample to the county extension office for analysis. Always best to take some of the diseased as well as healthy tissue.

Sorry I can not be of more help.
Extension Professor
Coordinator, Kentucky Extension Master Gardener Program
N-318 Ag Science North
Department of Horticulture
University of Kentucky

Think Green
05-08-2012, 09:46 PM
Kirk,
Phytothora rot is my final and last concern with excessive moisture. If fertilizer burn is possible, then the rains should have flushed out the excess salts by now.
I am working with my State's Diagnostician to discover why I am losing knock out roses, encore azaleas and a yellow weeping willow. For those that are suffering with a area that lacks knowledgeable people, it can be a real hassle in diagnosing shrub, tree problems.

kirk1701
05-08-2012, 11:53 PM
Kirk,
Phytothora rot is my final and last concern with excessive moisture. If fertilizer burn is possible, then the rains should have flushed out the excess salts by now.
I am working with my State's Diagnostician to discover why I am losing knock out roses, encore azaleas and a yellow weeping willow. For those that are suffering with a area that lacks knowledgeable people, it can be a real hassle in diagnosing shrub, tree problems.

I'll keep it in mind when I get the results back bud.

By the way, the first tree is now also showing some symptoms as well, just one branch but none the less yellowish leaves.

Thinking I might put some Miracle grow around all 3 tree's.

SDLandscapes VT
05-13-2012, 01:19 PM
kirk1701

before you go fertilizing again you need to get a good diagnosis of the problem. adding fertilizers to plants with fungal infections can really be detrimental to plant health. on the flip side of the coin some fungally infected plants need nutrients to help overcome the disease. but until you have a full diagnosis just applying to apply is probably not the best course of action

Dr.NewEarth
05-13-2012, 01:32 PM
I haven't read all of the replies, but Cornus Kousa are resistant to Anthracnose up here.
I'm going to presume that they are elsewhere.

We plant them instead of our native Dogwood, because they are so disease resistant .Plus they have that edible fruit. Ever tried it?

Our native Cornus have alot of problems with Anthracnose.

kirk1701
05-13-2012, 06:46 PM
I haven't read all of the replies, but Cornus Kousa are resistant to Anthracnose up here.
I'm going to presume that they are elsewhere.

We plant them instead of our native Dogwood, because they are so disease resistant .Plus they have that edible fruit. Ever tried it?

Our native Cornus have alot of problems with Anthracnose.

You have me curious now with the fruit :laugh:
I'm just crazy enough to try one this fall when they turn red :drinkup:

Yes, mine are the disease resistant

kirk1701
05-21-2012, 06:58 PM
Hey guys

Got the report back today from the extension office so here we go. I'll scan and post the copy of the report later.

Its not fungus (knew that)
Its not 2,4 D drift (I definitely knew that)
The leave's show yellowing which is an indication of iron deficiency but is not common in Kousa dogwoods and tend to develop in soils with a pH greater then 7 and mine was 6.1

The soil submitted was of heavy clay and this pH would not would not tend to favor iron deficiency.

Dieback from the tips inward indicate site related problem. The extreamely heavy clay texture is likely poor drained internally, which can effect the root function. Has anything happened to injure the roots or base of the tree recently? Check the base for borer injury (which we ruled out borer here)

kirk1701
05-22-2012, 04:19 PM
Here yu go guys, whats the next step, tree don't look good now at all.

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/319724_2942800382519_1636527708_2003498_1647820186_n.jpg

Dr.NewEarth
05-22-2012, 05:23 PM
One thing you could do for the chlorotic yellowing leaves, is spray "Iron Chelate" onto them.

It comes in a powder. Iron Chelate can also be sprayed onto the ground, which helps with the pH.

As for the clay soil....You could dig outside of the dripzone and without disturbing alot of roots, add a sandy loam to assist in the drainage.???

kirk1701
05-22-2012, 06:30 PM
One thing you could do for the chlorotic yellowing leaves, is spray "Iron Chelate" onto them.

It comes in a powder. Iron Chelate can also be sprayed onto the ground, which helps with the pH.

As for the clay soil....You could dig outside of the dripzone and without disturbing alot of roots, add a sandy loam to assist in the drainage.???

Dr.NewEarth
I forgot to mention it seems like its spreading to the next tree up, 33 feet away. Also, keep in mind this is the third or forth year they've been in the ground, we've got a lot ,more water in previous years then we did this year and its hard to believe now it could be too much water with good results in previous years.

Does the Iron sound like the best route right now?

kirk1701
05-24-2012, 07:13 AM
One thing you could do for the chlorotic yellowing leaves, is spray "Iron Chelate" onto them.

It comes in a powder. Iron Chelate can also be sprayed onto the ground, which helps with the pH.

As for the clay soil....You could dig outside of the dripzone and without disturbing alot of roots, add a sandy loam to assist in the drainage.???

Hey Dr.NewEarth
Hows this?
http://www.amazon.com/Bonide-299-32OZ-Liquid-Complex/dp/B000BX4RRI

I picked up some Ironite yesterday in a liquid form but not sure if thats going to be enough.

Talked to the lady at the extension office yesterday and whats going on is the heavy clay soil, its not letting the iron get through to the roots because its so wet.

Dr.NewEarth
05-24-2012, 12:36 PM
That's good that the extention office assisted you. Good Luck with your Cornus kousa.

kirk1701
05-24-2012, 12:41 PM
That's good that the extention office assisted you. Good Luck with your Cornus kousa.

Just ordered the 1 gallon concentrate 5% iron from Southern Ag

Dr.NewEarth
05-24-2012, 12:59 PM
You can spray Iron Chelate on any plant. It will give your gardens a deeper healthier green. It can also be sprayed onto the grass for the same effect and it helps to control the moss. It's a secret though. Don't tell any-one.

For non-toxic weed control try Fiesta on your lawns. It uses an iron formulation also.

You other lurkers here, don't forget to read the directions every time you apply a product. Don't go by memory. The directions could have changed since the last time you used the product.

kirk1701
05-24-2012, 03:15 PM
You can spray Iron Chelate on any plant. It will give your gardens a deeper healthier green. It can also be sprayed onto the grass for the same effect and it helps to control the moss. It's a secret though. Don't tell any-one.

For non-toxic weed control try Fiesta on your lawns. It uses an iron formulation also.

You other lurkers here, don't forget to read the directions every time you apply a product. Don't go by memory. The directions could have changed since the last time you used the product.

I agree, secret http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/abs724/Smilies%20Hut/lol.gif

That was my plan actually, should be here Monday so I was going to wait to do my fungicide treatment after this heat wave passes over the weekend and add the Iron to the Eagle20 I was going to use on the yard.

Actually, should get interesting because ChemLawn was just across the street from me and I know it was a scheduled round with nitrogen in the mix so heat, nitrogen and he just mowed all spells disaster. My poor neighbor and its an older couple I would like to tell them but they swear by ChemLawn and end up reseeding every fall, of course ChemLawn does the reseeding :confused:

freddyc
05-26-2012, 12:24 AM
Don't know if this helps but food for thought..

I had the same issues with a dogwood last year.

It was planted in an area about 15 feet from a silver maple (about 2.5 ft in diameter) centrally located in a yard about 40 ft wide by 25 deep.

The area gets full sun and had an irrigation system for years.

The silver maple was taken out last year.

The dogwood was about halfway dead...all lower branches were dead, very few leaves that withered and died.

This is what I did...

I took out the rototiller and dug a trench about 12-14" deep all the way around at the drip line. Then I added a load of compost and a ton of peat moss in the trench.

It should be noted that the entire area was infested with silver maple roots. The soil was a little sandy loam as a rule so I really mixed up the compost and peat moss with it.

Filled it all back in and watered the heck out of it.

It took a little time, but most of the leaves came back early this year with a couple small indications of new branch growth out the trunk. It flowered up well too.

This year, a few weeks ago, put down some of that fish food you get at the garden centers. Watered the heck out of it...and now it's been raining steady for about 2-3 weeks.

The dogwood looks like new. All leaves are dark green, it's fully loaded and new growth is starting.

Every situation is different but this is what worked for me. The area is central Massachusetts. Don't know what will happen later on but right now it's real happy!

Because you seem to have several trees with the same symptoms in close proximity, it appears they don't really like the soil. No joke but try the fish food fert if you can... it seems even the response you got from the university is ambiguous. I believe the compost I put at the root zone probably really helped out on my end. Your situation might be different.

kirk1701
05-26-2012, 08:39 AM
Thanks freddyc,

Actually it does help, years ago we had nothing but water maples in the front yard of the same picture I posted. I mean roots growing on top of the ground, there was no lawn, no sun and the roots were getting into the foundation of the house and they had to go.

Got all the trunks ground out and I went to work landscaping, little by little I got it looking the way it does now and a lot of learning curves like don't plant grass in July stupid and 95 degrees :laugh:
Don't fertilize the yard either my dumb ass did in July :hammerhead:

I know there are still some maple roots in the ground, I mean they traveled 50 feet or more to get in the fondation so I'm sure the dogwood roots are now finding some of them.

And lastly, the guy from the university said the same thing you did about adding compost and other organic matter just be careful not to damage the roots.
I had a chance to review the diagnostic report. I agree it sounds like the symptoms are resulting from nutrient deficiency (iron) maybe brought on by poor soil conditions of heavy clay leading to poor drainage. The iron chelate will temporarily solve the deficiency problem and you should see results in 7-10 days. However you may see the same problems every year without periodic applications of chelate. I would advise doing some things to try to reduce the heavy clay. This is not so easy since the plants are already established. I would spread a 1-2 inch layer of organic matter around plants such as compost, rotted leaf litter or humus, peat moss, composted manure, etc. I would work this into the top 2-3 inches of soil but not too close to the plants where you might encounter and damage roots. I would do this now and in spring and fall for the next couple of years. Make sure the soil is moist during the growing season but since the drainage may be poor, take care not to over water.

kirk1701
05-30-2012, 01:56 PM
Ok I got the Liquid Iron Chelate late yesterday UPS from Southern Ag

Got it out right away, label rate is 1 oz./gallon so mixed up in a 5 gallon bucket and put 2 oz./gallon and put 10 gallon around the trunk and 10 gallon further out fron the trunk at label rate 1 oz./gallon then washed it in with the water hose real good.

How long before I should see some results guys?

By the way, applied to all three tree's, same way since I bought a whole gallon.

Dr.NewEarth
05-30-2012, 02:00 PM
Use it as a foliar spray too

kirk1701
05-30-2012, 02:02 PM
Use it as a foliar spray too

Yes, forgot that

1 oz. to 2 gallon and sprayed all 3

Dr.NewEarth
05-30-2012, 02:11 PM
You've got a hot thread going here.

kirk1701
05-30-2012, 02:17 PM
You've got a hot thread going here.

We'll we are on fire here, dry and humid and weekend was upper 90's :cry:

Still, hot and 86 degree's and only noon

Anyhow, the guy from Unv KY said 7 - 10 days he right?

Dr.NewEarth
05-30-2012, 02:52 PM
It takes a while to be effective. Less time for foliar applications and more time when you spray the root zone. I soak every-thing. 7 to 10 days is normal, maybe longer.

kirk1701
05-30-2012, 02:54 PM
It takes a while to be effective. Less time for foliar applications and more time when you spray the root zone. I soak every-thing. 7 to 10 days is normal, maybe longer.

Thanks, let you guys know when and if I see something change.

Hopefully for the better

kirk1701
06-08-2012, 12:07 AM
It takes a while to be effective. Less time for foliar applications and more time when you spray the root zone. I soak every-thing. 7 to 10 days is normal, maybe longer.

Good news!!
Actually seeing some green up as of today in the foilage thats left :drinkup:

I do have some of the main trunk of the tree above some of the limbs that still had leaves that are bare, lost all the leaves before I had a chance to diagnose the tree but the bark is still green if scratched back.

I do believe it will make a full recovery next season but the berries fell off also, so it won't have many blooms.

kirk1701
06-13-2012, 07:06 PM
Hey guys, have some questions

1. how often or how long should I wait before doing the iron treatment again?

2. First pic is of the original tree I post pics of, does it look any better to you all, I'm at odd's with myself? The next 3 pics is of the other tree that had a little yellowing in the leaves but now, is this the result of too much iron or am I still seeing the effects of the original problem; which takes me back to Q1 should I apply again?

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/282936_3028492324764_2107037843_n.jpg

Notice Branch on right side is bare already
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/401868_3028492524769_357746014_n.jpg

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/301840_3028492724774_2102350523_n.jpg

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/285713_3028492884778_1582089340_n.jpg

Dr.NewEarth
06-13-2012, 07:26 PM
Double check the Fe Chelate's directions. You should be able to spray every couple of weeks unless it says otherwise.

Can you get a pH test? Even a cheap H.D. hottub test will give an indication of your pH.

It almost looks like you might have a magnesium shortage.

When you spray the Iron Chelate again, put two drops of Ivory Snow liquid Dish soap into the spray mix.(don't use any others-too many chemicals in them.)
This will help the chelate to stick to the leaves better.

kirk1701
06-14-2012, 12:31 AM
Double check the Fe Chelate's directions. You should be able to spray every couple of weeks unless it says otherwise.

Can you get a pH test? Even a cheap H.D. hottub test will give an indication of your pH.

It almost looks like you might have a magnesium shortage.

When you spray the Iron Chelate again, put two drops of Ivory Snow liquid Dish soap into the spray mix.(don't use any others-too many chemicals in them.)
This will help the chelate to stick to the leaves better.

pH was here bud, 6.1
http://www.lawnsite.com/showpost.php?p=4420090&postcount=24

As for the magnesium I had soil samples taken of the yard last fall. pH then just down the hill from these tree's were 6.8 which co-insides with the soil around the tree now. magnesium last fall was high 332 just down the hill.

Label don't say much Dr.NewEarth? Any sugestions
DIRECTIONS FOR USE
Shake well before using.
FLOWERS, VEGETABLES,
SHRUBS AND TREES
FOLIAGE APPLICATION: Mix the material at
the rate of 1 tablespoonful per gallon of water.
Apply in a manner that will give thorough cover-
age to upper and lower surfaces of foliage. Use
an amount sufficient to cause run-off of spray.
SOIL APPLICATION: Use at the rate of 1 fluid
ounce in at least 1 gallon of water per 100 sq. ft.
For flower beds, treat the bed area. For shrubs
and trees, treat the root area. This area usually
extends out as far as the foliage.
LAWNS and TURF
Use 1 pint (16 fl. oz.) per 1,000 sq. ft. Apply in a
sufficient volume of water to thoroughly wet the
foliage and runoff in the root zone. Hose attached
sprayers provide a convenient method to treat
lawns.
Note: Iron deficiency in many plants is an indi-
cation of high pH or alkaline soil. If yellowing per-
sists or returns rapidly after treatment, soil pH
should be checked and adjusted if necessary.

Dr.NewEarth
06-14-2012, 12:59 AM
Cornus likes a pH of around 5.5

kirk1701
06-14-2012, 09:31 AM
Cornus likes a pH of around 5.5

Yea, thats my problem bud, I'm trying to get it there but I was told the fescue liked lime. Year before last when I did the landscaping down the side of the property I bought a bag of sulfer to reduce the pH around the holly, that did wonders for them and I put some around the dogwoods at the same time also.

I don't think I limed the yard in fall of 2010 and I know I didn't last fall. :confused:

kirk1701
06-14-2012, 09:33 AM
By the way, I'm very close to yanking them out and putting something else down, I've lost 6 years of growth now. Any sugestions on what to get that would like this soil, prosper and grow tall enough to shade the house from the afternoon sun?

frotis
06-14-2012, 09:55 AM
Is the bark missing around the bottom of the trunk her, looks injured.

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/301840_3028492724774_2102350523_n.jpg

Dr.NewEarth
06-14-2012, 01:28 PM
That would correspond to the dieback on that side of the tree. Good eyes.

kirk1701
06-14-2012, 05:30 PM
That would correspond to the dieback on that side of the tree. Good eyes.

Nope, no bark missing or no injuries to this tree either just like the other tree I'm sure its the same thing going on, its 30 feet away with the same symptoms. Iron

phasthound
06-14-2012, 06:57 PM
Can you post photos of the trunk flare before & after you remove some soil from the trunk?

kirk1701
06-14-2012, 07:40 PM
Can you post photos of the trunk flare before & after you remove some soil from the trunk?

Here yu go.
Glad you forced me to take these, what I did find were some ants that might need to be took care of, little red ants could they be causing any of this?

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/166076_3031508920177_276431732_n.jpg

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/208827_3031509240185_1394095384_n.jpg

frotis
06-14-2012, 09:25 PM
Nope, no bark missing or no injuries to this tree either just like the other tree I'm sure its the same thing going on, its 30 feet away with the same symptoms. Iron

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/166076_3031508920177_276431732_n.jpg

Looks injured to me.

kirk1701
06-14-2012, 09:58 PM
Looks injured to me.

Yea, just seen that to myself but its old, had to be from when I bought it 3 years back.

phasthound
06-15-2012, 09:24 AM
This kind of damage diverts energy from normal plant functions to compartmentalizing the area and can have a long term effect on the tree's health, such as the decline you are seeing now.

In addition, the Kousa appears to have planted too deeply. This is probably the number one reason for it's decline. Remove more soil from the trunk until the root flare is exposed. That would have been the proper planting depth.

http://www.treesaregood.com/treecare/tree_planting.aspx

kirk1701
06-15-2012, 06:18 PM
This kind of damage diverts energy from normal plant functions to compartmentalizing the area and can have a long term effect on the tree's health, such as the decline you are seeing now.

In addition, the Kousa appears to have planted too deeply. This is probably the number one reason for it's decline. Remove more soil from the trunk until the root flare is exposed. That would have been the proper planting depth.

http://www.treesaregood.com/treecare/tree_planting.aspx

Like I said, its the same as the other tree iron deficiency.

The report from the extension office is a few pages back

kirk1701
06-16-2012, 08:26 PM
Hey guys
Going to give two of the three tree's another dose of the iron tonight.

Its been dry and the tree's has not got no water except what the grass got so this loom soil should be dried up enough the roots can uptake more iron.

kirk1701
06-23-2012, 10:30 AM
Thinking about digging this tree up now guys, not getting any better and now the leaves are just looking even more sick?

I know its been hot here but its getting water plus two iron treatments now??

Any thoughts?

First three is of the one I'd like do get advice on digging up
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/599162_3060131795731_98545945_n.jpg

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/250891_3060131635727_1927683906_n.jpg

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/600989_3060132035737_1976996151_n.jpg

Asked about this one a couple pages back, iron seemed to help but still going to have to wait till next year and see if the branches that lost the leaves get growth again
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/545268_3060132275743_363190364_n.jpg

This is the tree at the other side of the front, doing beautiful and I can't understand if the soil is clay 30 feet away then why wouldn't this one be doing the same thing also? It should all be clay? NO?
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/282847_3060132355745_1164277827_n.jpg

treedoc1
06-23-2012, 11:13 AM
All the posters in this thread reflect most of the public regarding their trees and plants. Always looking for a quick spray fix, watering fix, exotic fix for a common everyday problem.
The trees are planted too deep in a clay soil, the planting hole was probably amended, resulting in a porous mixture with no drainage out of the hole. The one tree has had 40% of its cambium destroyed!
Keep watering and killing what little roots are left.
The beautiful turf with its watering requirements is at odds with the needs of the kousas with poor drainage.
How to fix?
Plant at the correct depth, raise the trees. Sweat a little bit by raising the trees instead of standing back spraying the next new fix you look up on the internet.

www.treesaregood.com

Good luck on your new planting. Be a lazy landscaper and don't plant so deep; you will be much happier with the results.

kirk1701
06-23-2012, 11:36 AM
All the posters in this thread reflect most of the public regarding their trees and plants. Always looking for a quick spray fix, watering fix, exotic fix for a common everyday problem.
The trees are planted too deep in a clay soil, the planting hole was probably amended, resulting in a porous mixture with no drainage out of the hole. The one tree has had 40% of its cambium destroyed!
Keep watering and killing what little roots are left.
The beautiful turf with its watering requirements is at odds with the needs of the kousas with poor drainage.
How to fix?
Plant at the correct depth, raise the trees. Sweat a little bit by raising the trees instead of standing back spraying the next new fix you look up on the internet.

www.treesaregood.com

Good luck on your new planting. Be a lazy landscaper and don't plant so deep; you will be much happier with the results.

Just one question treedoc
I'd believe it was planted to deep if I set it out, the one in the middle the one in question and the one that looks real good was set out by a tree farm not me? The owner of the farm and two workers came and set them out so could they still be to deep.

The other one, the one with 40% of its cambium destroyed I assume your refering to the one with the bark at the bottom that was damaged; don't know how that happened to be honest but none the less I'd take responsibility for that one as I set it out the following spring after a princess dogwood I had there died. I don't remember if I planted it deep it was 3 years ago so I can't say I did/didn't and hell, I can't even say if the bark was like that even when I set it out.

Very disgusted at this point, feel like ripping all 3 out and planting a dam acorn :cry:

treedoc1
06-23-2012, 11:52 AM
Just because he owns a farm doesn't mean much. Many small nurseries have a problem with the constant tilling of weeds and slowly pushing excess dirt up over the original planting depth.
It takes extra work if you dig the hole to deep to reposition the tree. Remember time is money. They plopped it in, collected your check and went on their way.
Your kousa leaves are showing all the classic signs of over watering, fert burn: drooping, mushy browning.
Because of your turf, plant the new trees whether containerized or B&B only 75% in the ground. Mulch the remaining portion 3-4" deep, taking care to not let the mulch build up around the trunk.
Good Luck.

kirk1701
06-23-2012, 12:21 PM
Just because he owns a farm doesn't mean much. Many small nurseries have a problem with the constant tilling of weeds and slowly pushing excess dirt up over the original planting depth.
It takes extra work if you dig the hole to deep to reposition the tree. Remember time is money. They plopped it in, collected your check and went on their way.
Your kousa leaves are showing all the classic signs of over watering, fert burn: drooping, mushy browning.
Because of your turf, plant the new trees whether containerized or B&B only 75% in the ground. Mulch the remaining portion 3-4" deep, taking care to not let the mulch build up around the trunk.
Good Luck.

B&B???
I take it you mean burlap?

If so then yes all 3 trees were planted to the top of the burlap so YES!! To deep.

Now, making sense to me now also why the tree that's still looking good is also now, still looking good. I'd have to dig out some old photo's to explain but just take my word that side of the property is hard to keep wet when it gets dry like it is now. That tree is right on the edge of that area and its like underneath is just gravel and water soaks right through but I've never dug down deep to check.

The other two tree's are in an area I don't have to water that grass as much either till it gets hot and dry like now. However, further down out toward the street is gravel underneath and I have to water that 4 times more then up closer to the house.

This will give you an idea what the entire front looks like:
Tree closest to driveway and the one in the middle are the two in question, the one on the far side is in the area hard to keep wet in the summer.
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/555294_2931401217547_1091206009_n.jpg

kirk1701
06-23-2012, 12:24 PM
By the way, clearify for me dig out the hole and replace the dirt first?

Or just dig out the hole deep enough to plant and use existing soil?

kirk1701
06-23-2012, 01:03 PM
Come to think about it this might just give me an opportunity to correct another mistake so here's another question.

Originally, the dogwoods were to be something that would get tall enough to shade the house from the afternoon sun, dogwoods didn't work out and got Anthracnose
http://www.ca.uky.edu/agcollege/plantpathology/ext_files/PPFShtml/PPFS-OR-W-6.pdf
Which is how I ended up with the Kousa's which don't get tall enough or at least haven't grown at the expected rate to shade the house in my lifetime.

What kind of tree can I plant that will do well in this soil, grow fast and provide some decent shade.

A couple requirements:
1. No nuts or poppers (from maple tree's) I don't want to be picking up walnuts to mow or digging poppers out of rain gutters.

2. Won't soak up and the nutrients from the soil like water maples did and prevent grass from ever growing. (YES!! Front was once full of HUGE!!!! Water maples when we bought the property)

kirk1701
07-05-2012, 02:21 PM
Hey guys, I gave up on the tree in the middle and its almost dead
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/376267_3102139045886_1258573603_n.jpg

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/544483_3102138725878_1473201831_n.jpg

The only one of the three that was doing well has now started showing the same signs. Its got the iron treatment and nothing else has been done :confused:

This is pics of the one that looked good. Any idea's
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/602461_3102137365844_164662938_n.jpg

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/539765_3102137605850_153112949_n.jpg

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/314782_3102137765854_1874830920_n.jpg

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/580865_3102138565874_364996246_n.jpg

Knew some of you would ask for this:
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/3094_3102137925858_43457099_n.jpg
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/561035_3102138165864_1324192322_n.jpg

phasthound
07-05-2012, 06:04 PM
Kirk,
The latest photos clearly show that the Kousa were planted too deep. They were also the wrong choice if your goal was to shade your house. Sorry.

You might find this site helpful in choosing trees for you site.
http://www.kentuckyliving.com/article.asp?articleid=3115&issueid=360

And use this guideline for proper planting. http://treesaregood.org/treecare/resources/New_TreePlanting.pdf

kirk1701
07-06-2012, 12:33 AM
Kirk,
The latest photos clearly show that the Kousa were planted too deep. They were also the wrong choice if your goal was to shade your house. Sorry.

You might find this site helpful in choosing trees for you site.
http://www.kentuckyliving.com/article.asp?articleid=3115&issueid=360

And use this guideline for proper planting. http://treesaregood.org/treecare/resources/New_TreePlanting.pdf

Thanks phasthound

Just one question, why 3 years later would this start?

kirk1701
07-06-2012, 12:55 AM
Kirk,
The latest photos clearly show that the Kousa were planted too deep. They were also the wrong choice if your goal was to shade your house. Sorry.

You might find this site helpful in choosing trees for you site.
http://www.kentuckyliving.com/article.asp?articleid=3115&issueid=360

And use this guideline for proper planting. http://treesaregood.org/treecare/resources/New_TreePlanting.pdf

What you think; next best thing to my wild dogwoods which I originally wanted?

3rd one down on the list in your link:
http://www.thegardeningguru.com/index-6-072002.html
The Japanese tree lilac is native to Northern Japan and is hardy in the United States to zone 3. I will warn those of you who live in the warmer climates that it does not do well in zones 8 or higher because it definitely likes the cooler weather. They classify this plant as a large shrub or small tree, which is the same classification as a dogwood.

phasthound
07-06-2012, 08:35 AM
Thanks phasthound

Just one question, why 3 years later would this start?

Trees are pretty tough. I'm always amazed at how well they can survive the conditions we subject them to. This time frame is classic for decline due to improper planting.

Trees and shrubs planted im-properly or in unfavorable locations will also be stressed by poor root growth and development. Planting trees and shrubs too deeply or incorrectly........ If a balance between the crown and root system cannot be maintained, the tree or shrub will be weakened, and decline and dieback may develop a few years after transplanting. http://ipm.illinois.edu/diseases/series600/rpd641/

phasthound
07-06-2012, 08:58 AM
What you think; next best thing to my wild dogwoods which I originally wanted?

3rd one down on the list in your link:
http://www.thegardeningguru.com/index-6-072002.html

It's a beautiful tree when in bloom but does not have the multi-seasonal beauty of native dogwoods.

According to Dirr: Plant in loose, well drained slightly acidic soils. Medium growth rate, 9-12' after about 7 years reaching maximum 20-30' height. Possibly the most trouble free lilac. Flowers best in full sun. Zone 7b & higher leaves may dry out in summer. Does not do well in heat of southern summer.
http://planthardiness.ars.usda.gov/PHZMWeb/Images/300dpi/KY.jpg

kirk1701
07-06-2012, 03:12 PM
It's a beautiful tree when in bloom but does not have the multi-seasonal beauty of native dogwoods.

According to Dirr: Plant in loose, well drained slightly acidic soils. Medium growth rate, 9-12' after about 7 years reaching maximum 20-30' height. Possibly the most trouble free lilac. Flowers best in full sun. Zone 7b & higher leaves may dry out in summer. Does not do well in heat of southern summer.
http://planthardiness.ars.usda.gov/PHZMWeb/Images/300dpi/KY.jpg

We'll they will be in full sun and HOT!!
Its 98 here now and I've seen it in the 90's every year since I've been here so maybe not a good choice.

Like I said earlier I might just plant an acorn this fall, surely a Oak will grow

Duekster
07-06-2012, 03:53 PM
Thanks phasthound

Just one question, why 3 years later would this start?

Planting too deep can often take 3 to 5 years to start showing problems.

kirk1701
07-07-2012, 11:35 AM
What do you guys think about a birch tree?

http://www.arborday.org/treeguide/treeDetail.cfm?id=22

The cinnamon-colored, exfoliating bark of the River Birch is spectacular in the winter. Lustrous, medium-green leaves. Most borer resistant birch. Tolerant of both wet soils and dry summers. Avoid very alkaline soils. Grows to 40' to 70', 40'-60' spread.(zones 4-9)

Like uhhh, sounds perfect for my soil and the spot I'm putting it and will serve my purpose?

Duekster
07-07-2012, 11:51 AM
What do you guys think about a birch tree?

http://www.arborday.org/treeguide/treeDetail.cfm?id=22



Like uhhh, sounds perfect for my soil and the spot I'm putting it and will serve my purpose?

Maybe but then again how about meeting with a Master Gardener from your local extention office to find out?

kirk1701
07-07-2012, 01:36 PM
Maybe but then again how about meeting with a Master Gardener from your local extention office to find out?

Thats one idea, but the one at our local extension office is the one that explained it was lack of iron due to the heavy clay soil which prompted me to get the cheated iron and a couple pages back that was the conclusion here also; that still the case or we have two problems iron and to deep?

Then, there's aonther idea my peach tree's are doing great, branches are so loaded I had to brace them with 2x4's to prevent them from breaking :drinkup:

Scroll down to garden section if you haven't seen my thread yet. I should get an updated pic of the peach tree's:
http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=380540&page=2

Duekster
07-07-2012, 02:01 PM
While it may be too deep, it is not excessively so. How did you dig the hole, was it like a saucer or a bowl. Smooth or rough edges.

If a container plant, was it root bound? Could the roots be girdling? Still growing in a circle so to speak?

How much of the potting soil did you remove, how did you back fill the tree?

kirk1701
07-07-2012, 02:13 PM
While it may be too deep, it is not excessively so. How did you dig the hole, was it like a saucer or a bowl. Smooth or rough edges.

If a container plant, was it root bound? Could the roots be girdling? Still growing in a circle so to speak?

How much of the potting soil did you remove, how did you back fill the tree?

Thats just it, I didn't; I planted the one closest to the driveway and did the same thing the tree farm where I bought the tree's did on the other two they planted.

I can say all three holes were dug out previously (previous years) and soil removed and potting soil and fresh top soil mix was put in place because we had different dogwoods we were trying to get growing which all died due to disease:

http://www.ca.uky.edu/agcollege/plantpathology/ext_files/PPFShtml/PPFS-OR-W-6.pdf

Like I said, thats how I arrived at the Kousa's.

All three tree's had burlap around the bottom which was removed when planted.

But see this is a good question, top of the soil was fresh topsoil/potting soil mix; this is the soil I took to the extension office for a sample so how did it become heavy clay?

Duekster
07-07-2012, 02:23 PM
As a general rule, I never plant in the same spot if a tree dies or wait a few years so the roots and such can decay.

It is far better to back fill with native soil than ammended soil. Some say to even make the plant bare root ( protect the roots) but I do not knock off 100 % myself

The hole should be a saucer not a bowl.

B&B trees often have major shock and heat stress because they only have a small portion of roots left. The industry standard, IIRCC is 12" per caliper Inch but far better to go 18 to 24.

You may need to remove some lower limbs, the tree could be giving up top growth to establish roots. If in hard clay, that is difficult to do.

Super Thrive, 1/2 ounce in 5 gallons once per month.

Use the PHC for trees fall blend at 1/2 strenght. http://www.lebanonturf.com/products/items/2724637/index.aspx


No other products.

kirk1701
07-09-2012, 12:41 AM
Duekster

Just brainstorming here as plan is this fall all three tree's are going bye bye and get something to go back to the original plan we started with to begin with; shade for the afternoon sun.

Bradford pair's seem to be all over the place here, down the street, up the street and one right across the street you can see from the photo of the Oak in the woods I posted.

What you think?

At the same time, would you put back in the same hole? Since were replacing I have the opportunity now to move the placement of the tree's and you can see from the picture in the last page here:
http://www.lawnsite.com/showpost.php?p=4451034&postcount=62

Closer to the house; less drainage
Further out toward the street; more drainage

I know the property pretty well now and the further toward the street as you can see in on a slope for one and second, lot of rock/dirt mix but thats not my doing you can say "we bought it that way" :laugh: