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MEXANDME
05-19-2012, 09:16 AM
I have a new customer with 16 of 24 PGP's leaking badly past the wiper seal. The customer is on city water so the leaks impact both his water bill and head performance.

The heads are at least 7 years old. The soil is "gumbo".....very difficult to dig in.

The question is this. Has Hunter made a significant enough improvement in the wiper seal in the past 7 years to the point that I can just change out the guts or should I replace them all with the RB 5004's that I usually use?

Thanks,

Mex

Kiril
05-19-2012, 09:32 AM
Just replace the seal dude. Ewing #11092534 is the kit you need, and has the spring seat and wiper seal.

Wet_Boots
05-19-2012, 09:35 AM
there was a PGP problem in the mid-late 2000's with leakers. I just had to replace half a dozen in a system I installed

txirrigation
05-19-2012, 09:52 AM
It also could be that there is not enough pressure on the system to seal the risers when they pop up.

Wet_Boots
05-19-2012, 10:02 AM
I think the caps might be warping - if you happen to mold some stress into a part, it might have an effect down the road - I first saw this on a broken plastic part long ago, where all the broken parts didn't come close to fitting back together

SoCalLandscapeMgmt
05-19-2012, 11:50 AM
Rain Bird makes a 5004 internal that will screw right into the PGP case.... That would be the fastest way to solve the problem and get a performance upgrade at the same time!

mrsteve
05-19-2012, 11:59 AM
Just replace the seal dude. Ewing #11092534 is the kit you need, and has the spring seat and wiper seal.
Depends if it's on your dime or not. I would gut it, then you have new everything. You can use the PGP blue nozzles or the Ultra which IMO work better. Time wise it just doesn't make sense to handle the heads too much. I still have systems with the Weathermatic 35P spray which had terrible seals. This system has hundreds of them, it's a crime how much water that put down the drain on start up. Too many to do all at once $$$, so I take the worst ones out and put in a PRS SAM Rain Bird.

mrsteve
05-19-2012, 12:02 PM
Rain Bird makes a 5004 internal that will screw right into the PGP case.... That would be the fastest way to solve the problem and get a performance upgrade at the same time!
I'm new to Rain Bird rotors, but have been thinking about that. Does that one have a check valve that will work in the PGP body?

Mike Leary
05-19-2012, 12:25 PM
I would think a 5000 SAM (low-drain-check) head would fit a PGP body. The 5000 series also retros into the great old "T-Bird" rotors.

Wet_Boots
05-19-2012, 12:34 PM
Rainbird ought to make a retrofit into the old Toro bodies, especially since it looks like every single sprinkler using the "standard Toro body" is gone for good, stream rotor excepted.

Kiril
05-19-2012, 02:34 PM
Depends if it's on your dime or not. I would gut it, then you have new everything. You can use the PGP blue nozzles or the Ultra which IMO work better. Time wise it just doesn't make sense to handle the heads too much. I still have systems with the Weathermatic 35P spray which had terrible seals. This system has hundreds of them, it's a crime how much water that put down the drain on start up. Too many to do all at once $$$, so I take the worst ones out and put in a PRS SAM Rain Bird.

I don't support the throw away society nor do I support ripping off clients. Fix the damn rotor with the 50 cent part until the entire rotor fails or you are doing a complete redesign/renovation. There are good reasons for replacing rotors, a bad seal is not one of them.

Wet_Boots
05-19-2012, 02:52 PM
If it takes longer to replace a seal than to replace a head, you are not giving best value. Also, you can replace seals on a leaker, and still the head will leak.

Duekster
05-19-2012, 02:56 PM
If it takes longer to replace a seal than to replace a head, you are not giving best value. Also, you can replace seals on a leaker, and still the head will leak.

Some parts are more than the unit or very close too.

Duekster
05-19-2012, 02:58 PM
I would think a 5000 SAM (low-drain-check) head would fit a PGP body. The 5000 series also retros into the great old "T-Bird" rotors.

I think I sold the very first 5000 SAM. JDL had to order them and they guy came back and said, not only the first JDL client but the first.

mrsteve
05-19-2012, 04:06 PM
I think I sold the very first 5000 SAM. JDL had to order them and they guy came back and said, not only the first JDL client but the first.
If you've had experience with both the PGP and the R/B is there a good enough reason to change from one to the other. I went through all the Toro's starting in the 80's and settled on the PGP once they got their seal fixed. Last year I switched to the Ultra and have been happy. However this year I'm all about the PRS and SAM in the sprays and have been thinking of switching to get that same benefit in a rotor. The other good thing with the SAM at least in a spray is the strong spring. I'm very tired of heads sticking up and was hopping the big spring will help with that problem. The sticking problem crosses over into all the manufactures in my experience. I was early with JDL on the RD1800, had to have a case shipped in from California.

Wet_Boots
05-19-2012, 04:18 PM
If you really really hate sticking heads, and can upsell, consider trying the Toro Stream Rotor heads (300 series)

Duekster
05-19-2012, 04:18 PM
If you've had experience with both the PGP and the R/B is there a good enough reason to change from one to the other. I went through all the Toro's starting in the 80's and settled on the PGP once they got their seal fixed. Last year I switched to the Ultra and have been happy. However this year I'm all about the PRS and SAM in the sprays and have been thinking of switching to get that same benefit in a rotor. The other good thing with the SAM at least in a spray is the strong spring. I'm very tired of heads sticking up and was hopping the big spring will help with that problem. The sticking problem crosses over into all the manufactures in my experience. I was early with JDL on the RD1800, had to have a case shipped in from California.


After typing 200 words, I decided


I do not have an opinion to give. Sorry.

Duekster
05-19-2012, 04:20 PM
If you really really hate sticking heads, and can upsell, consider trying the Toro Stream Rotor heads (300 series)

are these kind of like the MP's. MP's do most of what I need.

If so I will look at those.

mrsteve
05-19-2012, 04:30 PM
If you really really hate sticking heads, and can upsell, consider trying the Toro Stream Rotor heads (300 series)
I used to use the 300 series, but those have been replaced with the MP's in all my properties. Too many parts (arc disk seals etc.) on the 300, good head though. You had to design for it, no real adjustment. They were ahead of their time, I remember using the 63 and 93 nozzles which were the low demand. Saved the day on systems that were marginal from too much demand.

Wet_Boots
05-19-2012, 04:41 PM
When you aren't winterizing systems, the old 300's probably can't surpass a Rotator. Aside from that, their non-adjustability meant nothing to drift out of alignment. And they always popped down when set at grade. Always.

mrsteve
05-19-2012, 04:46 PM
I don't support the throw away society nor do I support ripping off clients. Fix the damn rotor with the 50 cent part until the entire rotor fails or you are doing a complete redesign/renovation. There are good reasons for replacing rotors, a bad seal is not one of them.
Not trying to stir things up on here, but this has become a throw away society, like it or not. At the current labor rate we cannot do the things we use to do. We would solder in resistors and change clock or advance motors in the old days. If you do that now, the customer still has an old mechanical clock with the life span clicking away. For about the same money they could have been upgraded to more features and a warranty in a new controller. It's a shame, but that's where we are today. That's why I said spin the rotor out and a new one in, then give a warranty on the new unit if you want.

mrsteve
05-19-2012, 04:57 PM
When you aren't winterizing systems, the old 300's probably can't surpass a Rotator. Aside from that, their non-adjustability meant nothing to drift out of alignment. And they always popped down when set at grade. Always.
I like the way you think. Down here we don't know what winterizing is. We are running the A/C in December and the sprinkler sometimes. I had to bid a lawn maintenance contract this last year from a New Jersey sub contractor. They wanted to send us the snow removal part separate. I told them, look if it snows down here everybody stays home until it melts. There is no snow removal.

Kiril
05-19-2012, 05:12 PM
If it takes longer to replace a seal than to replace a head, you are not giving best value.

.......... Bullshiit!

Wet_Boots
05-19-2012, 05:31 PM
Replacing seals involves exposing the outside threads on the old body, and dirt/mud gets on them, and it simply is not a fact that replacing PGP seals gives you a leak-free head.

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-19-2012, 06:59 PM
Rain Bird makes a 5004 internal that will screw right into the PGP case.... That would be the fastest way to solve the problem and get a performance upgrade at the same time!

This is what I'd do as well. I've screwed with seals for pgps and it's a waste of time. Upgrading to a better head beats replacing a seal on an existing pgp in my book.

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-19-2012, 07:03 PM
Depends if it's on your dime or not. I would gut it, then you have new everything. You can use the PGP blue nozzles or the Ultra which IMO work better. Time wise it just doesn't make sense to handle the heads too much. I still have systems with the Weathermatic 35P spray which had terrible seals. This system has hundreds of them, it's a crime how much water that put down the drain on start up. Too many to do all at once $$$, so I take the worst ones out and put in a PRS SAM Rain Bird.

Those 35ps made me a lot of money. I wish I could have found a better head that would reuse their brass nozzle though. Best head I ever came across was the hydro rain 4.5" popup. Used the champion nozzles.

SoCalLandscapeMgmt
05-19-2012, 07:06 PM
I don't support the throw away society nor do I support ripping off clients.

Exactly!! which is why I can't support a company like Hunter that makes what are essentially throw away products to begin with and I won't rip off a customer by installing Hunter products on their property!! I knew that you and I agreed on some things Kiril! :clapping:

Wet_Boots
05-19-2012, 07:27 PM
I still like the PGP. No one else seems to have enough confidence in their gear drive to offer the same range of nozzles the PGP has.

Duekster
05-19-2012, 07:37 PM
Not a fan of Rotors in general but I know they have a purpose. Hunter bought Walla Walla and jacked up the price trying to protect their PGP line. Now rainbird has reintroduced their version at low prices and the MP's have returned to earth somewhat.

The MP's with the MPR 40's are my choice for most applications. Some times the run time can be long, but the flow is low so you can overlap some zones on larger systems to reduce the total run time. I would upsell this in a heart beat. I rarely see PGP's spaced more than 35 feet. I can squeeze and add heads easy on retros.

Kiril
05-19-2012, 09:50 PM
Replacing seals involves exposing the outside threads on the old body, and dirt/mud gets on them, and it simply is not a fact that replacing PGP seals gives you a leak-free head.

Blah, blah blah, blah. If you can't open up a rotor and reassemble it without causing a leak you are an idiot in the wrong business.

Exactly!! which is why I can't support a company like Hunter that makes what are essentially throw away products to begin with and I won't rip off a customer by installing Hunter products on their property!! I knew that you and I agreed on some things Kiril! :clapping:

Spoken like a true RB rep. I applaud your company loyalty. :rolleyes:

BTW Dan .... how much of a performance upgrade are we talking about? Got some audit numbers to support that claim?

Duekster
05-19-2012, 09:59 PM
Blah, blah blah, blah. If you can't open up a rotor and reassemble it without causing a leak you are an idiot in the wrong business.



Spoken like a true RB rep. I applaud your company loyalty. :rolleyes:

BTW Dan .... how much of a performance upgrade are we talking about? Got some audit numbers to support that claim?

I have words with RB so if that is your meaning,..... lets talk.

Kiril
05-19-2012, 10:09 PM
I have words with RB so if that is your meaning,..... lets talk.

I don't have a clue what this means. That said, I use mostly RB sprays and rotors when I need to swap, with a scattering of Hunter Institutional sprays. I do still stock some PGP's just for systems that need a single replacement head in order the keep the head type consistent. A leaky seal on a PGP is NOT a driving need to swap a head and a new one can be installed reliably in less than 5 minutes. \

Wet_Boots
05-19-2012, 10:15 PM
You keep assuming only the seal is why a PGP can leak, and that is simply not so.

Kiril
05-19-2012, 10:20 PM
You keep assuming only the seal is why a PGP can leak, and that is simply not so.

Being your obtuse irrelevant self as usual I see. The OP said the rotors are leaking past the seal ... you can read, right? Short of some really bad scoring of the shaft the new seal will correct the problem. End of story.

SoCalLandscapeMgmt
05-19-2012, 10:23 PM
Spoken like a true RB rep. I applaud your company loyalty. :rolleyes:

You have no idea....

BTW Dan .... how much of a performance upgrade are we talking about? Got some audit numbers to support that claim?

Do your own research Mr. Wizzard....

SoCalLandscapeMgmt
05-19-2012, 10:27 PM
You keep assuming only the seal is why a PGP can leak, and that is simply not so.

Could be leaking because the riser stem is scored, could be leaking where the turret attaches to the stem, I've seen PGP's leak through the top.... But if Kiril says that you can fix it just by changing the riser seal then he must be right....

Duekster
05-19-2012, 10:44 PM
I don't have a clue what this means. That said, I use mostly RB sprays and rotors when I need to swap, with a scattering of Hunter Institutional sprays. I do still stock some PGP's just for systems that need a single replacement head in order the keep the head type consistent. A leaky seal on a PGP is NOT a driving need to swap a head and a new one can be installed reliably in less than 5 minutes. \

It means what it means. RB has left me out to hang on small and large jobs. Not going to air here because I have repect for lawn site.

I will be happy to air with permission. :weightlifter:

Sprinkus
05-19-2012, 10:52 PM
Someone's gotta pay for Lewis' RB vacation.

Mike Leary
05-19-2012, 11:10 PM
Someone's gotta pay for Lewis' RB vacation.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-19-2012, 11:17 PM
It means what it means. RB has left me out to hang on small and large jobs. Not going to air here because I have repect for lawn site.

I will be happy to air with permission. :weightlifter:

We don't do the permission thing. If you feel strongly about something air it out.

Mike Leary
05-19-2012, 11:31 PM
We don't do the permission thing. If you feel strongly about something air it out.

Ditto, I know of one ex-contractor who is now a RB REP that keeps in touch with this forum and would like to hear of any problems.

AI Inc
05-20-2012, 08:15 AM
I have a new customer with 16 of 24 PGP's leaking badly past the wiper seal. The customer is on city water so the leaks impact both his water bill and head performance.

The heads are at least 7 years old. The soil is "gumbo".....very difficult to dig in.

The question is this. Has Hunter made a significant enough improvement in the wiper seal in the past 7 years to the point that I can just change out the guts or should I replace them all with the RB 5004's that I usually use?

Thanks,

Mex

Im willing to bet 75% of those leakers are just loose. Check that out. Not saying ya shouldn't sell some heads , but most that are leaking the threads have come loose.

Kiril
05-20-2012, 08:38 AM
Could be leaking because the riser stem is scored, could be leaking where the turret attaches to the stem, I've seen PGP's leak through the top.... But if Kiril says that you can fix it just by changing the riser seal then he must be right....

-----------------

I have a new customer with 16 of 24 PGP's leaking badly past the wiper seal.

Duekster
05-20-2012, 09:33 AM
First of all, while multi-tasking, I mis-read a quote By Kril thinking Kril said

Originally Posted by SoCalLandscapeMgmt
Exactly!! which is why I can't support a company like Hunter that makes what are essentially throw away products to begin with and I won't rip off a customer by installing Hunter products on their property!!


I appololgize to Kril.

I would like to ask how many times has rain bird introduced products on the market only to pull them off market? :waving:

jvanvliet
05-20-2012, 09:46 AM
I don't know why you'd bother keeping parts for a Hunter PGP. @ about $7.00, I turn out the internal sprinkler assembly and drop in a new one. An inventorying of and replacing wiper seals (if you can get them) just isn't worth it to me.

Kiril is right; Hunters are throw aways'

PGP Manual (http://www.irrigationdirect.com/media/manuals/owners-manuals/hunter/Hunter-PGP-Rotor-Owners-Manual.pdf)

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-20-2012, 10:15 AM
First of all, while multi-tasking, I mis-read a quote By Kril thinking Kril said

Originally Posted by SoCalLandscapeMgmt
Exactly!! which is why I can't support a company like Hunter that makes what are essentially throw away products to begin with and I won't rip off a customer by installing Hunter products on their property!!


I appololgize to Kril.

I would like to ask how many times has rain bird introduced products on the market only to pull them off market? :waving:
Better than companies that put cr@p on the market and leave it. Every company needs to be judged by the products it has on the market today. RB may be a little short in the honesty dept but their 1800 is the best popup. I'd use their 5000 series before any of the others. The dv seems to be a good valve. I'd also use their espm and the weather monitor version of it as well. I will certainly agree though if you aren't a big time installer their reps seem to have a glazed eye look when you talk to them.

Duekster
05-20-2012, 10:21 AM
Better than companies that put cr@p on the market and leave it. Every company needs to be judged by the products it has on the market today. RB may be a little short in the honesty dept but their 1800 is the best popup. I'd use their 5000 series before any of the others. The dv seems to be a good valve. I'd also use their espm and the weather monitor version of it as well. I will certainly agree though if you aren't a big time installer their reps seem to have a glazed eye look when you talk to them.

The 1800 they sell in the box box store. If you take it apart, is it the same as you get from a distributor?

I know in the past the 1800 in the box store was crap compared to what I bought from distributors but I got tired of trying to show my clients that, even having two side by side and taking them apart for the client.

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-20-2012, 10:30 AM
I threw in the towel on the box store stuff long ago. Toro does it. Hunter does it. The way to handle that inmo is to use products the box stores will never carry. 1800sam/prs. 5000 sam/prs. Brass nozzles.( may be a thing of the past now that my beloved Riggs Irrigation supply has shut down.) Valves with flow controls or commercial valves.

Duekster
05-20-2012, 10:34 AM
I threw in the towel on the box store stuff long ago. Toro does it. Hunter does it. The way to handle that inmo is to use products the box stores will never carry. 1800sam/prs. 5000 sam/prs. Brass nozzles.( may be a thing of the past now that my beloved Riggs Irrigation supply has shut down.) Valves with flow controls or commercial valves.


I agree with you but why in the hell would Rainbird take their 1800, cheapen it and put a version in the box store ? They have builder grade materials they could have sold instead of making two versions of the 1800.

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-20-2012, 10:36 AM
I'd rather get into the mind of Hannibal Lechter than get into the mind of the big three irrigation manufacturers.

Kiril
05-20-2012, 10:38 AM
Kiril is right; Hunters are throw aways'

Ummmm, yea I didn't say that, and given I have some PGP's that have been in the ground well over a decade and still functioning without any repair hardly makes them "throw aways".

Duekster
05-20-2012, 10:41 AM
I put in some of their Multistream Rotor Nozzles. Had a pretty high failure rate, they said they would make good on it. Never did, just pulled them off the market.

Wireless Rain Freeze sensors, failure.... no replacement 3 month later. I had to go around and pull several and replace them. It gets better too.

SoCalLandscapeMgmt
05-20-2012, 10:48 AM
Ummmm, yea I didn't say that, and given I have some PGP's that have been in the ground well over a decade and still functioning without any repair hardly makes them "throw aways".

Yeah.... Their older product was of good quality..... Their recent product is garbage.

Duekster
05-20-2012, 10:50 AM
Yeah.... Their older product was of good quality..... Their recent product is garbage.

Trying to match the price point of their competition no doubt.

SoCalLandscapeMgmt
05-20-2012, 10:51 AM
I put in some of their Multistream Rotor Nozzles. Had a pretty high failure rate, they said they would make good on it. Never did, just pulled them off the market.

Wireless Rain Freeze sensors, failure.... no replacement 3 month later. I had to go around and pull several and replace them. It gets better too.

The RB rotary nozzle is still on the market. We've installed about a thousand of them with no issues. We've also installed about a thousand of the MP rotators with no issues either. As far as the wireless rain freeze goes we've had no issues with the most recent version. I'd take the defective stuff back to the distributor and make it some bodies problem!

Duekster
05-20-2012, 10:56 AM
The RB rotary nozzle is still on the market. We've installed about a thousand of them with no issues. We've also installed about a thousand of the MP rotators with no issues either. As far as the wireless rain freeze goes we've had no issues with the most recent version. I'd take the defective stuff back to the distributor and make it some bodies problem!

The RB Rotory was pulled off the market after introduction and about a year on the market. Promise you.

SoCalLandscapeMgmt
05-20-2012, 10:58 AM
I put in some of their Multistream Rotor Nozzles. Had a pretty high failure rate, they said they would make good on it. Never did, just pulled them off the market.

Wireless Rain Freeze sensors, failure.... no replacement 3 month later. I had to go around and pull several and replace them. It gets better too.

The RB Rotory was pulled off the market after introduction and about a year on the market. Promise you.

Maybe in TX! Maybe for a brief period... but I can guarantee you that I can walk into Ewing or Hydroscape tomorrow any buy as many as I want.....

Wet_Boots
05-20-2012, 11:04 AM
I threw in the towel on the box store stuff long ago. Toro does it. Hunter does it. The way to handle that inmo is to use products the box stores will never carry. 1800sam/prs. 5000 sam/prs. Brass nozzles.( may be a thing of the past now that my beloved Riggs Irrigation supply has shut down.) Valves with flow controls or commercial valves.wha happened?

Duekster
05-20-2012, 11:04 AM
Maybe in TX! Maybe for a brief period... but I can guarantee you that I can walk into Ewing or Hydroscape tomorrow any buy as many as I want.....

Today that is the case but I choose not to because of past experiances. The MP is a better designed unit. I switched to the Walla Walla because of the Rainbird failures. Why would I switch back now?

I upsold someone to taking out those POS and letting me put in the MP's :D

SoCalLandscapeMgmt
05-20-2012, 11:07 AM
I agree, as some at RB would too, that the MP Rotator is the better product....

Duekster
05-20-2012, 11:10 AM
There is no doubt. The homeowner tried them on a station. I put the MP's on another station. The sell was very easy just looking at the performance, the ability to adjust them and then just look at them side by side.

I sold the RB product, but again, had failures. Could not replace them because they were pulled off the market. They stayed off the market a decent amount of time too.

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-20-2012, 11:16 AM
wha happened?
They got severely overweight and couldn't resist the offer Baylor Medical made for their property. They were basically an island property surrounded by the Hospital and had been pestered for years to sell it. Foundry was right next door. Henry says its killed his initiative to repair old valves. They were always reliable for parts but the others are hit and miss. I tried to get them to let me sell their brass nozzles online but we are talking about a place that never had a computer and still did invoices by hand.

Duekster
05-20-2012, 11:21 AM
I thought Weathermatic still makes brass nozzles. Never use much of their product except the SL's series controllers. One failure of a wireless weather sensor. MFG date was about 14 months old, on customer site 13 months. They shipped me a new one right away.

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-20-2012, 11:22 AM
WMTC does make brass nozzles but Riggs could be had at half the price and performed identical.

Duekster
05-20-2012, 11:25 AM
WMTC does make brass nozzles but Riggs could be had at half the price and performed identical.

Riggs was good while it lasted. I when over there, out of the way for me for some stuff. It is no wonder they went out when you are 1/2 priced and overweight at you say.

Wet_Boots
05-20-2012, 11:29 AM
Bummer about Riggs. I guess even having your own foundry doesn't get by the cost of raw materials.

Is anyone buying their tooling?

Duekster
05-20-2012, 11:35 AM
If anyone is interested, I still have better stories about RB. Just wanted to get some of the basics out of the way but the items I mentioned is not what broke the back for this past select contractor.

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-20-2012, 11:38 AM
Bummer about Riggs. I guess even having your own foundry doesn't get by the cost of raw materials.

Is anyone buying their tooling?

I have no clue but the story is they had made a massive inventory at really good raw material prices and rarely needed to use the foundry. Whenever they could get good pricing on raw materials they cranked it up and knocked out some more.

Wet_Boots
05-20-2012, 11:52 AM
Nozzles don't even require the foundry, as you can machine yellow brass for them. The L.R. Nelson guys made a few attempts at brass popup bodies made without casting the red brass.

Mike Leary
05-20-2012, 12:13 PM
I have no clue but the story is they had made a massive inventory at really good raw material prices and rarely needed to use the foundry. Whenever they could get good pricing on raw materials they cranked it up and knocked out some more.

That's sad when that happens; end of an era. So, that leaves W*M and Storm as the only ones left making brass nozzles? :cry:

Wet_Boots
05-20-2012, 12:18 PM
Champion still makes the wafer nozzles that fit the cheesy popups, and there is Orbit with the imports.

Mike Leary
05-20-2012, 12:38 PM
Champion still makes the wafer nozzles that fit the cheesy popups, and there is Orbit with the imports.

Perish the thought.

Duekster
05-20-2012, 12:54 PM
What is Orbit?

:D

Mike Leary
05-20-2012, 01:01 PM
What is Orbit?

Next time you're in a big box store, ask the ex-contractor that runs the irrigation dept. :rolleyes:

Duekster
05-20-2012, 01:06 PM
Next time you're in a big box store, ask the ex-contractor that runs the irrigation dept. :rolleyes:

I do go to the big box stores but about to stop completely going to Home Depot. They do not hire ex-contractors to help homeowners. Instead they have these camera's with little LCD screens that constantly beep at you. It says you are being recorded.

I can see it beeping once or twice but to constantly beep is annoying and frankly a little insulting. I do not mind a few self check out lines but really this is getting to be over the top.

Mike Leary
05-20-2012, 01:49 PM
I always dressed up in a wig, dress and tiara when I went to one of those places, for fear of being recognized as a low baller. :dizzy:

Duekster
05-20-2012, 02:13 PM
I always dressed up in a wig, dress and tiara when I went to one of those places, for fear of being recognized as a low baller. :dizzy:

:laugh::laugh:

I hate it with a passion but grabbing small items is ok when they are so close. Bites me in the arse about 50% of the time however. Particularly those cheap 1800s. :cry:

Mike Leary
05-20-2012, 02:48 PM
Particularly those cheap 1800s. :cry:

Easy to spot on a service call with the bar code stickers still glued on.

Wet_Boots
05-20-2012, 02:50 PM
I hate bar code stickers :realmad:

Duekster
05-20-2012, 02:50 PM
Easy to spot on a service call with the bar code stickers still glued on.

I used to have one to take a part and show clients it was not the same as the 1800's I was quoting. Got tired of wasting my breath.

Kiril
05-20-2012, 03:10 PM
I always dressed up in a wig, dress and tiara when I went to one of those places

Come on dad .... let's be honest now. You dress like that all the time. :laugh:

Wet_Boots
05-20-2012, 03:22 PM
Does anyone here have any of the original Hunter fixed-arc "Series 075" rotors in operation?

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-20-2012, 04:24 PM
I used to have one to take a part and show clients it was not the same as the 1800's I was quoting. Got tired of wasting my breath.

Don't bring it to their attention. I've rarely had a customer discuss my part prices. Usually I manage to floor them with my labor charge.

Duekster
05-20-2012, 04:30 PM
Don't bring it to their attention. I've rarely had a customer discuss my part prices. Usually I manage to floor them with my labor charge.

True, only mention if you are going to use Superior products.

jvanvliet
05-20-2012, 06:20 PM
What is Orbit?

:D

Isn't that what the space thingy does around the earth?

Duekster
05-20-2012, 06:27 PM
Isn't that what the space thingy does around the earth?

Does it have a leaking PGP too? :dancing:

jvanvliet
05-20-2012, 06:28 PM
Ummmm, yea I didn't say that, and given I have some PGP's that have been in the ground well over a decade and still functioning without any repair hardly makes them "throw aways".

Yah, sorry. I thought you said something that made sense... Here we throw them out and replace them. They are still great dirty water heads and many do last years and years. But when the seals start leaking, etc. we don't fix them we replace them.

jvanvliet
05-20-2012, 06:29 PM
Does it have a leaking PGP too? :dancing:

I think Apallo 13 had one of those.

Duekster
05-20-2012, 06:32 PM
I think Apallo 13 had one of those.:laugh:

Ground control to Major Tom.

Wet_Boots
05-20-2012, 06:36 PM
"Houston, (and Dallas) we have a problem."

Duekster
05-20-2012, 06:44 PM
"Houston, (and Dallas) we have a problem."

:laugh: <3 NY take I-30 E

Mike Leary
05-20-2012, 06:48 PM
Come on dad .... let's be honest now. You dress like that all the time. :laugh:

Me, Jim, Gregg and Dan at Home Dept.:

SoCalLandscapeMgmt
05-20-2012, 06:50 PM
Me, Jim, Gregg and Dan at Home Dept.:

who knocked you up Mike?

Wet_Boots
05-20-2012, 06:54 PM
I don't think I'll ever get a chance to know how reliable the gear drive on the PGP is, because the seals fail first, and the head is often wrecked by landscapers. When they still had the fixed-angle heads, I would sometimes have a shrub head on a riser, not ever having to worry about stripped gears, but the nozzles would always disintegrate from sun exposure.

Duekster
05-20-2012, 06:57 PM
Me, Jim, Gregg and Dan at Home Dept.:

Hot, looking for the slip fix no doubt.

jvanvliet
05-20-2012, 06:59 PM
"Houston, (and Dallas) we have a problem."

Down the hall and on the left; you'll come to a door with a sign that says "Gentlemen". Ignore it and go right in. Take care of your leaking PGP, if no improvement in 10 days go for the penicillin. :cry:

Duekster
05-20-2012, 07:04 PM
Down the hall and on the left; you'll come to a door with a sign that says "Gentlemen". Ignore it and go right in. Take care of your leaking PGP, if no improvement in 10 days go for the penicillin. :cry:

Just put some christy's red hot blue glue on it. :cool2:

Mike Leary
05-20-2012, 07:13 PM
Well, I don't get it, if a I-20 is a glorified PGP (as Boots the blowhard says), why have I had problem zip with them? I'm going to survey one of my systems this week that has over 40 I-20 6" S.S. ultras. The system is now over 10 years old. I'll bet an Imperial hat that they all rotate and don't leak. :cool2:

Duekster
05-20-2012, 07:16 PM
Well, I don't get it, if a I-20 is a glorified PGP (as Boots the blowhard says), why have I had problem zip with them? I'm going to survey one of my systems this week that has over 40 I-20 6" S.S. ultras. The system is now over 10 years old. I'll bet an Imperial hat that they all rotate and don't leak. :cool2:
I-20 runs from SC to Texas?

Wet_Boots
05-20-2012, 07:18 PM
Ten years is nothing. Try twenty. Try it with I-20 heads that have all 1.0 gpm nozzles.

Mike Leary
05-20-2012, 07:32 PM
Anyone who uses a 1.0 gpm rotor nozzle is a.............

Duekster
05-20-2012, 07:35 PM
Anyone who uses a 1.0 gpm rotor nozzle is a.............

Nozzle !!

Wet_Boots
05-20-2012, 07:46 PM
If you want to compare the two heads straight up, you have to match flows. A PGP with a 4.5 gpm nozzle figures to never stop turning.

Mike Leary
05-20-2012, 08:06 PM
It's not the gpm, professor, it's the pressure that keep rotors happy. Having said that, (in my prime) I could piss farther than a 1.0 gpm Hunter nozzle, with better coverage.;)

Duekster
05-20-2012, 08:12 PM
It's not the gpm, professor, it's the pressure that keep rotors happy. Having said that, (in my prime) I could piss farther than a 1.0 gpm Hunter nozzle, with better coverage.;)

Prolly looks like your avatar too. :laugh:

Wet_Boots
05-20-2012, 08:14 PM
only if he used the diffusing screw

Duekster
05-20-2012, 08:19 PM
:nono:

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Mike Leary
05-20-2012, 08:31 PM
Prolly looks like your avatar too. :laugh:

For the technically oriented, that's an I-40 at 90 psi, look at the great front end coverage! Wish I could have pissed like that.

Duekster
05-20-2012, 08:34 PM
For the technically oriented, that's an I-40 at 90 psi, look at the great front end coverage! Wish I could have pissed like that.

Outside of the 90 PSI, I do and the wife hates the bathroom.

Mike Leary
05-20-2012, 08:45 PM
Outside of the 90 PSI, I do and the wife hates the bathroom.

Real men can go outside or sit down inside, it's pretty comfy, especially if you've had a few. :drinkup:

Duekster
05-20-2012, 08:53 PM
You lost me at sit down,,, now you sound like a mama's boy.:drinkup:

Mike Leary
05-20-2012, 09:28 PM
You lost me at sit down,,, now you sound like a mama's boy.:drinkup:

Ever live in a motor home? Not much room in the bathroom. :rolleyes:

Wet_Boots
05-20-2012, 09:31 PM
hang it out a window

Kiril
05-20-2012, 09:34 PM
Yah, sorry. I thought you said something that made sense... Here we throw them out and replace them. They are still great dirty water heads and many do last years and years. But when the seals start leaking, etc. we don't fix them we replace them.

Hey, why not just replace valves that have bad diaphragms too, or bad solenoids, or sprinklers cause they look dirty. Do you also throw away your car when the brake pads go bad? :hammerhead:

Mike Leary
05-20-2012, 09:40 PM
hang it out a window

In my wife's wildest dreams.

Wet_Boots
05-20-2012, 09:58 PM
Hey, why not just replace valves that have bad diaphragms too, or bad solenoids, or sprinklers cause they look dirty. Do you also throw away your car when the brake pads go bad? :hammerhead:the gear drive in a PGP lasts a long time, but after ten years, it's getting to be on borrowed time. A five-year-old PGP leaker is about half-gone any way, so it gets replaced.

Duekster
05-20-2012, 10:05 PM
replace the motor home

Mike Leary
05-20-2012, 10:09 PM
Hey, why not just replace valves that have bad diaphragms too, or bad solenoids, or sprinklers cause they look dirty. Do you also throw away your car when the brake pads go bad? :hammerhead:

My buddy Russ had that happen the other day, when the tech went to check non-opening valves. He called in to the office and said he did not fix the problem, even though he replaced both solenoids, which he thought was the simple way to fix the problem. Russ went ballistic because the tech never even put the v.o.m. to work. Bad Kitty. :hammerhead:

bcg
05-20-2012, 11:29 PM
Hey, why not just replace valves that have bad diaphragms too, or bad solenoids, or sprinklers cause they look dirty. Do you also throw away your car when the brake pads go bad? :hammerhead:

Those aren't even close to apples to apples comparisons. The labor required to replace a valve is significantly more than the labor required to rebuild it or replace the solenoid. On a PGP, labor is about the same whether we replace the wiper seal or the whole head (it's probably a little less to replace the head, honestly). PGP's have problems, not just leaking at the seals but issues with severe scoring of the stems and launching the tops of the heads. When one starts leaking, the best thing to do is to be proactive about it and replace the damn head, not rebuild it. If you need to replace more than 75% of the zone, then I always suggest doing the whole zone and swapping them to 5000's. I don't want to have to go back and work on the same head 2x because I was trying to save $5, especially since the 2nd trip is likely to be on my dime. I'd rather do it "right" the first time (in this case "right" being defined as in a way that will minimize the chances of a call back) than screw around trying to save a few bucks. In my case anyway, the cost to the customer is going to be the same whether I replace the wiper seal or the whole head.

Mike Leary
05-20-2012, 11:52 PM
Those aren't even close to apples to apples comparisons. The labor required to replace a valve is significantly more than the labor required to rebuild it or replace the solenoid. In my case anyway, the cost to the customer is going to be the same whether I replace the wiper seal or the whole head.

I agree, valves and clock problems are one thing, and because of the expense of replacement, are worth dinking around with TO A POINT. I've got a tech at $22.00 an hour dinking around with a stuck/weeping head, and I'm going to say, "go back to the truck, get a wiper seal and see if that solves the problem"? NO, I'm going to say, "replace the guts, check what nozzle was installed, fire the zone, adjust, bail-out to the next job. Dinking around is what the techs like to do; they love service calls, it's like a vacation day. Well, screw that," get it fixed within an hour or call me and I'm going to be pissed when I have to come to the site."

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-21-2012, 12:02 AM
Those aren't even close to apples to apples comparisons. The labor required to replace a valve is significantly more than the labor required to rebuild it or replace the solenoid. On a PGP, labor is about the same whether we replace the wiper seal or the whole head (it's probably a little less to replace the head, honestly). PGP's have problems, not just leaking at the seals but issues with severe scoring of the stems and launching the tops of the heads. When one starts leaking, the best thing to do is to be proactive about it and replace the damn head, not rebuild it. If you need to replace more than 75% of the zone, then I always suggest doing the whole zone and swapping them to 5000's. I don't want to have to go back and work on the same head 2x because I was trying to save $5, especially since the 2nd trip is likely to be on my dime. I'd rather do it "right" the first time (in this case "right" being defined as in a way that will minimize the chances of a call back) than screw around trying to save a few bucks. In my case anyway, the cost to the customer is going to be the same whether I replace the wiper seal or the whole head.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

jvanvliet
05-21-2012, 07:34 AM
Hey, why not just replace valves that have bad diaphragms too, or bad solenoids, or sprinklers cause they look dirty. Do you also throw away your car when the brake pads go bad? :hammerhead:

I don't give a rats pahootie how you do it in California :dizzy:

jvanvliet
05-21-2012, 07:36 AM
Those aren't even close to apples to apples comparisons. The labor required to replace a valve is significantly more than the labor required to rebuild it or replace the solenoid. On a PGP, labor is about the same whether we replace the wiper seal or the whole head (it's probably a little less to replace the head, honestly). PGP's have problems, not just leaking at the seals but issues with severe scoring of the stems and launching the tops of the heads. When one starts leaking, the best thing to do is to be proactive about it and replace the damn head, not rebuild it. If you need to replace more than 75% of the zone, then I always suggest doing the whole zone and swapping them to 5000's. I don't want to have to go back and work on the same head 2x because I was trying to save $5, especially since the 2nd trip is likely to be on my dime. I'd rather do it "right" the first time (in this case "right" being defined as in a way that will minimize the chances of a call back) than screw around trying to save a few bucks. In my case anyway, the cost to the customer is going to be the same whether I replace the wiper seal or the whole head.

:clapping: Right on; some of these guys are nitwits :dizzy:

jvanvliet
05-21-2012, 07:38 AM
I agree, valves and clock problems are one thing, and because of the expense of replacement, are worth dinking around with TO A POINT. I've got a tech at $22.00 an hour dinking around with a stuck/weeping head, and I'm going to say, "go back to the truck, get a wiper seal and see if that solves the problem"? NO, I'm going to say, "replace the guts, check what nozzle was installed, fire the zone, adjust, bail-out to the next job. Dinking around is what the techs like to do; they love service calls, it's like a vacation day. Well, screw that," get it fixed within an hour or call me and I'm going to be pissed when I have to come to the site."

You must be in to make money :clapping:

Kiril
05-21-2012, 09:36 AM
Those aren't even close to apples to apples comparisons.

I disagree. It is a comparison of mentality. If something is not functioning as it should then throw it away. That is the pervasive mentality of this society.

The labor required to replace a valve is significantly more than the labor required to rebuild it or replace the solenoid.

Irrelevant. People on this board are suggesting to replace because they deem the PGP unworthy of doing the job, not because it can't be repaired.

On a PGP, labor is about the same whether we replace the wiper seal or the whole head (it's probably a little less to replace the head, honestly).

Again disagree. It takes far more time to replace than to put a new seal in, that is unless you don't nozzle and adjust.

PGP's have problems, not just leaking at the seals but issues with severe scoring of the stems and launching the tops of the heads.

Any plastic sprinkler stands to suffer from scored stems when conditions are conducive to scoring.

When one starts leaking, the best thing to do is to be proactive about it and replace the damn head, not rebuild it. If you need to replace more than 75% of the zone, then I always suggest doing the whole zone and swapping them to 5000's. I don't want to have to go back and work on the same head 2x because I was trying to save $5, especially since the 2nd trip is likely to be on my dime. I'd rather do it "right" the first time (in this case "right" being defined as in a way that will minimize the chances of a call back) than screw around trying to save a few bucks. In my case anyway, the cost to the customer is going to be the same whether I replace the wiper seal or the whole head.

Now I can agree with this, only if the head is already near the end of it's service life.

Kiril
05-21-2012, 09:43 AM
Couldn't have said it better myself.

Now that is amusing coming from the guy who just spent an enormous amount of time rebuilding a pump that should have just been replaced. :laugh:

Wet_Boots
05-21-2012, 09:55 AM
There is simply no guarantee that a PGP leaking at the seal is otherwise problem-free, so replacing a seal means you are now warrantying the head like it was brand new. I won't do that for a PGP. I would do it for a STL rotor, or one of the Buckner all-brass rotors.

Kiril
05-21-2012, 12:00 PM
There is simply no guarantee that a PGP leaking at the seal is otherwise problem-free, so replacing a seal means you are now warrantying the head like it was brand new.

Ummm, no .... but continue being obtuse, it is amusing.

Mike Leary
05-21-2012, 12:07 PM
Ummm, no .... but continue being obtuse, it is amusing.

Also, keep using 1.0 nozzles @ 30 pounds: this thread will last forever,then.:dizzy:

Wet_Boots
05-21-2012, 12:30 PM
If you actually believe the gear drive in a PGP is different that the gear drive in an I-20 head, I have a great deal on a bridge for you. Any increase in the drive reliability in the I-20 is specifically the result of the nozzle sizes it uses.

If you are dismantling heads and reassembling them, and getting paid for it, you damn well are warrantying the head for some period of time, unless you refuse to back your own repair work.

Mike Leary
05-21-2012, 12:47 PM
I don't dispute the gear layout. What I mentioned, was the I-20 with plenty of pressure and a stainless riser has been trouble free. End of rant. :walking:

Kiril
05-21-2012, 01:01 PM
If you are dismantling heads and reassembling them, and getting paid for it, you damn well are warrantying the head for some period of time, unless you refuse to back your own repair work.

Bullshiit. Do you expect a mechanic to warranty the entire car when he/she does work on it, or just the work performed? Continue being obtuse boots.

Mike Leary
05-21-2012, 01:35 PM
We used to use the W*M 30 series pop-ups with the #400 brass nozzles, excellent head, except for the wiper seals. They'd get replaced every few years. The branch ordered the seals by the case, and, with W*Ms blessing, gave us a great price on them. Did I warranty them?, hell no. Cheap-ass Rotors are another story, replace them, period. Then it's warranty.

Wet_Boots
05-21-2012, 01:37 PM
You repair a head you warranty that head - end of story, unless your policy is to refuse to back your work.

In some rare instances, I effectively warranty a system in its entirety, because I can handle a subsequent issue easily and quickly, and besides, the original check hasn't cleared yet payup

jvanvliet
05-21-2012, 01:52 PM
Also, keep using 1.0 nozzles @ 30 pounds: this thread will last forever,then.:dizzy:

Isn't that how you're supposed to do it? Not enough pressure reduce the nozzle and tighten up the difussion screw?

Mike Leary
05-21-2012, 01:55 PM
Isn't that how you're supposed to do it? Not enough pressure reduce the nozzle and tighten up the difussion screw?

Yup, that's it, you're well on the way to being a "pro". :rolleyes:

jvanvliet
05-21-2012, 02:03 PM
Bullshiit. Do you expect a mechanic to warranty the entire car when he/she does work on it, or just the work performed? Continue being obtuse boots.

We only warranty parts (and labor only if installation was improperly done). Other than that... you pay. the manufacture isn't paying me labor to replace their fauly component.

Plenty of the PGP's gears fail because of the dirty water we put through them. California must not have any dirty water, and all the landscapers must be sensitive to the sprinkler heads right to exist; you might not be familier with the issues these can otherwise cause irrigation components

The seal can leak from a variety of reasons, dirt not being the least. When the seal goes down here, other problems aren't far behind, better off replacing the damn thing.

You'd have to be a tighta$$ or an anal retentive idiot to spend all that time and effort repairing them because "they should be repaired".

At $7.00 or so, they aren't worth repairing, we throw them away, we don't even keep them for salvage.

I like the PGP's, in general they have been a great economical dirty water head, and I'll continue to use them.

Did I say I don't care how they do it in California?

Wet_Boots
05-21-2012, 02:08 PM
Sometimes, in coarse sandy soils, repairing a Buckner cam drive was a nuisance, because one grain could jam the head. You could justify having a bucket of water with you to rinse the parts clean, before reassembly.

jvanvliet
05-21-2012, 02:32 PM
We are sucking unimagenable $hit out of water management drainage district canals & lakes. I've pulled pieces of dead things out of canal filters, valves, spray heads... it's always good to have a bucket of clean water if you can get (we try and keep a 7.5 gln jerry can) and a hand disinfectant.

Mike Leary
05-21-2012, 02:43 PM
(we try and keep a 7.5 gln jerry can)

What brand of gin do you use?

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-21-2012, 03:41 PM
Now that is amusing coming from the guy who just spent an enormous amount of time rebuilding a pump that should have just been replaced. :laugh:

And why did the pump need to be replaced? It required a 46.00 part and saved the HOA 1,000.00 plus. Spread over 6 months I'd say my total time was 3 hours and I learned a few things.

Charging 75 plus the cost of a seal with no real guarantee it will solve the problem when another 15.00 will get a brand new rotor is vastly more amusing.

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-21-2012, 03:45 PM
We used to use the W*M 30 series pop-ups with the #400 brass nozzles, excellent head, except for the wiper seals.

That would make them a shitty head in my book.

Wet_Boots
05-21-2012, 04:19 PM
I did a couple of seal-replacement jobs on old Toro Super600 systems. There was a brief unhappy moment in their history when they infringed on another company's wiper seal patent, and the Super600 seal had to be changed. Unfortunately, the new part developed problems in the field, with heads not popping down. The revised revised part was a success, and you could make those old systems brand-new good with a seal change.

Kiril
05-21-2012, 04:27 PM
You repair a head you warranty that head - end of story, unless your policy is to refuse to back your work.

I do warranty my work, for a hell of a lot longer than just about any contractor. For a PGP seal replacement, I warranty the seal, nothing more. No different than if I replace a solenoid on a value .... not going to warranty the entire valve ... that would be beyond stupid.

In some rare instances, I effectively warranty a system in its entirety, because I can handle a subsequent issue easily and quickly, and besides, the original check hasn't cleared yet payup

Bullshiit. You are telling me you would warranty a system in it's entirety that you did not install and only swapped out a seal or sprinkler? If you do, you are an idiot .... sorry.

Kiril
05-21-2012, 04:29 PM
And why did the pump need to be replaced?

See Jim's post on the subject.

Kiril
05-21-2012, 04:32 PM
You'd have to be a tighta$$ or an anal retentive idiot to spend all that time and effort repairing them because "they should be repaired".

Yup ... all of 5 minutes or less swapping a seal. :hammerhead:

At $7.00 or so, they aren't worth repairing, we throw them away, we don't even keep them for salvage.

And of course you charge the client $7.00 bucks for that replacement .... right. :rolleyes:

Did I say I don't care how they do it in California?

Then why don't you STFU.

Wet_Boots
05-21-2012, 04:47 PM
Bullshiit. You are telling me you would warranty a system in it's entirety that you did not install and blahblahblahblahblahIf I make a callback visit for an unrelated problem that takes less than ten minutes and a single fifty-cent part, then yes, I effectively warrantied the system. Effectively, not in writing, and even then, only as good customer relations provide for. (turns out, it was an odd phenomenon of a first-year-of-manufacture Toro Super700 head almost losing its nozzle from the head still rotating after it had popped down, and the zone was still draining)

Mike Leary
05-21-2012, 04:53 PM
That would make them a shitty head in my book.

No, it was a great head, the 400 series brass nozzles were the finest I've ever used, and that was the reason I used the 30 series. The wiper seals were no big deal; unscrew the bonnet,replace the seal, less than a minute. I miss those brass nozzles. :cry:

jvanvliet
05-21-2012, 05:57 PM
Yup ... all of 5 minutes or less swapping a seal. :hammerhead:

About the same time as swaping one out.:dizzy:

And of course you charge the client $7.00 bucks for that replacement .... right.:rolleyes:

About the same cost as replacing the wiper seal & I don't have to inventory them. How much do the seals cost? I have never bought them; my suppliers down here don't even carry them because it's STUPID TO WASTE TIME REPAIRING THEM:hammerhead:

Then why don't you STFU.

No problem, I'm sure they are easier to spot out there, but there's enough a$$holes in South Florida already.

jvanvliet
05-21-2012, 06:07 PM
What brand of gin do you use?

:laugh: I just saw this; actually we use rot gut potato vodka, gin makes us sin.

Mike Leary
05-21-2012, 06:44 PM
gin makes us sin.

"Everything in moderation" is page one of the Sprinklermans' code.

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-21-2012, 07:04 PM
No, it was a great head, the 400 series brass nozzles were the finest I've ever used, and that was the reason I used the 30 series. The wiper seals were no big deal; unscrew the bonnet,replace the seal, less than a minute. I miss those brass nozzles. :cry:

Be thankful you never had to deal with them down south in rhizome and stolon turf. The grass would grow into the gaps so to repair one had to dig around the head and pull all the grass out to get the top off. The big headache was you had to repair them or dig them up to lower the nipple, funny pipe lower, or to try and get the PVC deeper in order to replace their 3.5" popup with a RB 4" popup. Along with that those flimsy wings that hold the cap on would snap and you'd only know it by standing directly over the head while it was spraying. Gawd forbid it be a 6" or 12" popup. Sad thing is they could have come back with a decent popup and kept using the nozzles which I will agree were awesome nozzles. Not a head I have fond memories of.

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-21-2012, 07:12 PM
See Jim's post on the subject.

Jim would have repaired it as well. Don't need to look up his post. I read every post in the thread since i started it and only Mike and irritation were screaming at me to replace it. Bottom line is a 47.00 part to save the customer 1,000.00? GOOD. Repairing a pgp to avoid putting in a RB 5000 Sam/prs and saving the customer 20.00? NOT GOOD

Duekster
05-21-2012, 07:33 PM
The point is to be fair to clients, fix the problem and to make money. None of us want to pee like mike

Mike Leary
05-21-2012, 08:00 PM
Be thankful you never had to deal with them down south in rhizome and stolon turf. The grass would grow into the gaps so to repair one had to dig around the head and pull all the grass out to get the top off. The big headache was you had to repair them or dig them up to lower the nipple, funny pipe lower, or to try and get the PVC deeper in order to replace their 3.5" popup with a RB 4" popup. Along with that those flimsy wings that hold the cap on would snap and you'd only know it by standing directly over the head while it was spraying. Gawd forbid it be a 6" or 12" popup. Sad thing is they could have come back with a decent popup and kept using the nozzles which I will agree were awesome nozzles. Not a head I have fond memories of.

I had always been lead to believe the odd bonnets were designed to beat the lag concerning your Southern turf grass, obviously they missed it. I only used the 30 series in planting beds, so no problems with turf invasion. I loved those nozzles!

1idejim
05-21-2012, 08:04 PM
Jim would have repaired it as well. Don't need to look up his post. I read every post in the thread since i started it and only Mike and irritation were screaming at me to replace it. Bottom line is a 47.00 part to save the customer 1,000.00? GOOD. Repairing a pgp to avoid putting in a RB 5000 Sam/prs and saving the customer 20.00? NOT GOOD

since i got tossed into the discussion.

if the replacement were $1,000 i would rebuild it. the link i gave http://www.discountpoolzone.com/poolpumps/superflo.html showed a brand new 2hp pump for less than $400, had an integreted hair and lint strainer and taken 1 hr to plumb and wire for 230vac. the jacuzzi that pete has is a work horse and i would have still rebuilt it but i would have wired it 120vac and mounted it on a hand truck for use as a portable vacuum for cleaning the pond. win/win both ways.

you get the experience of rebuilding the pump (which i am all for) and the owners get a new super efferent pump with a warranty that will pay for itself in three years.

i was simply trying to be helpful but i guess with all of the squabbling my link was overlooked.

as far as commenting on the PGP, no comment:waving:

Mike Leary
05-21-2012, 08:12 PM
since i got tossed into the discussion. the owners get a new super efferent pump

Those "efferent" pumps have a great rep, and I agree with the rest of your post, Jim. :clapping:

1idejim
05-21-2012, 08:16 PM
Those "efferent" pumps have a great rep, and I agree with the rest of your post, Jim. :clapping:

that came from spell check boss, what'd you expect from a locator that can't find his eye :hammerhead:

Duekster
05-21-2012, 08:19 PM
Jim is a good guy no matter what I say about him. :D

Mike Leary
05-21-2012, 08:26 PM
Jim is a good guy, and if he ever installs a PGP, I will drive south and kick his sorry ass.

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-21-2012, 08:26 PM
I was pricing Daytons at grainger. Still even at 400.00 I think a 47.00 part that is a known fix is a good deal for the customer. I think for you Jim the seal would have been a less than an hour job. In my case if I had replaced it then it would have been trashed.

Kiril
05-21-2012, 09:11 PM
About the same time as swaping one out.:dizzy:

Really? You can swap out a Rotor, nozzle it, and adjust it in less than 5 minutes? :laugh: You must be getting those pre-nozzled rotors from Home Depot that have a magically self-setting arc and radius.

About the same cost as replacing the wiper seal & I don't have to inventory them. How much do the seals cost? I have never bought them; my suppliers down here don't even carry them because it's STUPID TO WASTE TIME REPAIRING THEM:hammerhead:

ROFL!!!! You don't know the cost of the seal, yet you say it is the same as your cost for a new rotor. Since you have never bought them, you couldn't possibly know if your supplier carries them (Home Depot for sure doesn't), or how long it takes to install them. Classic! BTW, last time I got them, seal and seat was 0.50 cents.

If the rotor is still in good shape and needs a new seal ..... REPLACE THE DAMN SEAL!

Duekster
05-21-2012, 09:11 PM
Jim is a good guy, and if he ever installs a PGP, I will drive south and kick his sorry ass.

He is a tracer not an Irrigator I keep asking and he keeps telling. I offer a ticket, he refused. :rolleyes:

jvanvliet
05-21-2012, 09:15 PM
Jim is a good guy, and if he ever installs a PGP, I will drive south and kick his sorry ass.

I take it the PGP's aren't popular; guys down here are replacing them with K-Rain rotators. Interestingly enough, the K-Rain is freely interchangeable with the Hunter... K-Rain is made in China :confused:

It's interesting how diverse the market is across the country. Here (S/E Florida) the Hunter PGP is more common as a rotator and Torro is more common as a mist head. We also tend to replace stuff a lot more than repairing it. This isn't just my maintenance company; replacing is often a lot more time and money expedient than repairing it.

But speaking about residential pumps... unless it's just a seal or impeller and we know the make and model, we usually replace the pump & motor rather than pulling one or the other and have it re-built.

It costs about as much to re-wind the motor as it does for a new one. Trying to find a motor for a 30 or 40 years old pumpof unknown manufacture that has been sitting in the sun is is mind bending.

Duekster
05-21-2012, 09:19 PM
I must be drunk as I am getting lost.

I do not like parts but in few things.

Wear on some parts often means others are likely to follow so I do all. If the body is good, replace all the guts.

If it is a cheap rotor covering only 30 feet, then swap out with something better like an MP. That is me, not going to defend it.

Rain bird support sucs so I take that into account. The PGP is going to die soon because of the MP to so replace it. Send it to the recycle bin and be done.

I collect those pots and send them back to the grower.

Printer companies take back their carts, let support a company that recycles dead rotors bodies too.

Duekster
05-21-2012, 09:21 PM
I take it the PGP's aren't popular; guys down here are replacing them with K-Rain rotators. Interestingly enough, the K-Rain is freely interchangeable with the Hunter... K-Rain is made in China :confused:

It's interesting how diverse the market is across the country. Here (S/E Florida) the Hunter PGP is more common as a rotator and Torro is more common as a mist head. We also tend to replace stuff a lot more than repairing it. This isn't just my maintenance company; replacing is often a lot more time and money expedient than repairing it.

But speaking about residential pumps... unless it's just a seal or impeller and we know the make and model, we usually replace the pump & motor rather than pulling one or the other and have it re-built.

It costs about as much to re-wind the motor as it does for a new one. Trying to find a motor for a 30 or 40 years old pumpof unknown manufacture that has been sitting in the sun is is mind bending.


All things being equal, buy Mexican made.

Rewound... re windings lose a lot of efficiency.

jvanvliet
05-21-2012, 09:30 PM
Really? You can swap out a Rotor, nozzle it, and adjust it in less than 5 minutes? :laugh: You must be getting those pre-nozzled rotors from Home Depot that have a magically self-setting arc and radius.

Yep, those are the ones. You can't swap one out in less than five minutes? That's pitiful, even my newbies can do that.

ROFL!!!! You don't know the cost of the seal, yet you say it is the same as your cost for a new rotor. Since you have never bought them, you couldn't possibly know if your supplier carries them (Home Depot for sure doesn't), or how long it takes to install them. Classic! BTW, last time I got them, seal and seat was 0.50 cents.

50 cents? Where? Horizon? Mellrose? Windmill? Boynton Pump? Not here butt boy. They don't sell them because there is no demand, only annaly retentive jerks like you would waste time fixing a piece of $7.00 hardware.

If the rotor is still in good shape and needs a new seal ..... REPLACE THE DAMN SEAL!

If the seal is shot; stem is possibly shot, or close to it; gears are possibly full of dirt and about to go. Replace seal = 1 service call; come back and replace the stem = 2 service calls; come back and do what you should have done the first time; REPLACE THE DAMNED THING ALTOGETHER.:dizzy:

People in S. florida would fire your a$$ after the third service call. They'd rather pay for one service call plus my rate for one PGP than three service calls.

jvanvliet
05-21-2012, 09:31 PM
All things being equal, buy Mexican made.

Rewound... re windings lose a lot of efficiency.

YESH! :drinkup:

Kiril
05-21-2012, 09:50 PM
Yep, those are the ones. You can't swap one out in less than five minutes? That's pitiful, even my newbies can do that.

Again .... ROFL!

50 cents? Where? Horizon? Mellrose? Windmill? Boynton Pump? Not here butt boy. They don't sell them because there is no demand, only annaly retentive jerks like you would waste time fixing a piece of $7.00 hardware.

I already gave the Ewing part number, are you blind ... and a piece of hardware you charge the client what .... $15 bucks or more?

If the seal is shot; stem is possibly shot, or close to it; gears are possibly full of dirt and about to go. Replace seal = 1 service call; come back and replace the stem = 2 service calls; come back and do what you should have done the first time; REPLACE THE DAMNED THING ALTOGETHER.:dizzy:

You understand how to inspect a rotor for wear and tear ..... don't you? Wait ..... let me borrow from you ..... That's pitiful, even my newbies can do that. If the rotor warrants replacement because it is near the end of it's service life, replace it. If it is a bad seal, repair it. How many f'n times do I have to say it? No wonder I moved out of FL .... too many thick headed people down there.

People in S. florida would fire your a$$ after the third service call. They'd rather pay for one service call plus my rate for one PGP than three service calls.

And of course, what if that brand new POS PGP fails again in 3 months .... you know .... bad seal .... because they are crap and belong in the trash .... according to some here. Personally when I swap out a zone of rotors I use the RB5000 or MPRotators where appropriate. I have also said this on many occasions.

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-21-2012, 09:52 PM
MPs throw their water too high in the air. Multi cycling achieves everything an MP provides. Most water efficient head going is the RB 5000 prs/sam with a LA nozzle as far as 30' spacing goes.

Mike Leary
05-21-2012, 09:54 PM
In my world, if a pump went down, it was not some cutsey pool or waterfall, it was the survival of the plants, a large investment. Peter must have had a lot of time on his hands to dink around, but my call was, always, "replace it, tomorrow".

Kiril
05-21-2012, 09:59 PM
MPs throw their water too high in the air. Multi cycling achieves everything an MP provides. Most water efficient head going is the RB 5000 prs/sam with a LA nozzle as far as 30' spacing goes.

I have a soil with a Ksat of 0.18 in/hour and a 6% slope. How many cycles and soak time between those would I need if I use a RB5000 with a LA nozzle. Compare that to a MPRotator.

Duekster
05-21-2012, 10:02 PM
MPs throw their water too high in the air. Multi cycling achieves everything an MP provides. Most water efficient head going is the RB 5000 prs/sam with a LA nozzle as far as 30' spacing goes.'can you keep water off windows on a retial store?

Duekster
05-21-2012, 10:04 PM
In my world, if a pump went down, it was not some cutsey pool or waterfall, it was the survival of the plants, a large investment. Peter must have had a lot of time on his hands to dink around, but my call was, always, "replace it, tomorrow".

You could just pee on the plants... There are options.

However the point is well taken. Plants die in a few days if not well adapted and poorly selected.

Mike Leary
05-21-2012, 10:13 PM
You could just pee on the plants... There are options.

However the point is well taken. Plants die in a few days if not well adapted and poorly selected.
In a failure,and if you're the honcho, and you can't get your subs down right now (or sooner), you'll start to look like the horses' ass you really are. :confused:

Duekster
05-21-2012, 10:16 PM
In a failure,and if you're the honcho, and you can't get your subs down right now (or sooner), you'll start to look like the horses' ass you really are. :confused:

You use subs?, no wonder. :rolleyes:

Duekster
05-21-2012, 10:21 PM
OK, OK... I would even throw away parts that could be re-cycled and find new subs...Worse come to worse I would fix it myself. Heaven forbid! :D

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-21-2012, 10:25 PM
I have a soil with a Ksat of 0.18 in/hour and a 6% slope. How many cycles and soak time between those would I need if I use a RB5000 with a LA nozzle. Compare that to a MPRotator.

Oh brother.....create a scenario that is atypical. With a 1.0 LA nozzle at 55psi you can get as low as .27"/hr. The MP 3000 at its lowest can do .44"/hour. The MPs at the top of that slope how high above the turf will the MP be at its peak height?

Duekster
05-21-2012, 10:29 PM
Oh brother.....create a scenario that is atypical. With a 1.0 LA nozzle at 55psi you can get as low as .27"/hr. The MP 3000 at its lowest can do .44"/hour. The MPs at the top of that slope how high above the turf will the MP be at its peak height?

You forgot the ask the wind direction, RH and soil type.

Mike Leary
05-21-2012, 10:31 PM
Oh brother.....create a scenario that is atypical. With a 1.0 LA nozzle at 55psi you can get as low as .27"/hr. The MP 3000 at its lowest can do .44"/hour. The MPs at the top of that slope how high above the turf will the MP be at its peak height?

I'd like to know how you can do a 6% slope with rotor LA nozzles. I've done slopes like that like that and never considered rotors.

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-21-2012, 10:33 PM
I'd like to know how you can do a 6% slope with LA nozzles. :dizzy:

Actually the way I'd do that is to use standard nozzles at the bottom and LAs at the top.

Duekster
05-21-2012, 10:33 PM
MPs throw their water too high in the air. Multi cycling achieves everything an MP provides. Most water efficient head going is the RB 5000 prs/sam with a LA nozzle as far as 30' spacing goes.

Care to put that to a real test with an audit in the hot dry air of Nevada, say vegas?

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-21-2012, 10:38 PM
Care to put that to a real test with an audit in the hot dry air of Nevada, say vegas?

Sure go do it and let us know the results.

Mike Leary
05-21-2012, 10:38 PM
You use subs?, no wonder. :rolleyes:

Pumps, electrical, inside plumbing, carpentry, etc., hell yes. I was a general contractor who just happened to specialize in irrigation. :cool2:

Duekster
05-21-2012, 10:41 PM
Pumps, electrical, inside plumbing, carpentry, etc., hell yes. I was a general contractor who just happened to specialize in irrigation. :cool2:

Well at least you picked the easy one to specialize in.

Mike Leary
05-21-2012, 10:44 PM
Well at least you picked the easy one to specialize in.

Any idiot can glue pipe, I was made for the gig.

Duekster
05-21-2012, 10:55 PM
Any idiot can glue pipe, I was made for the gig.

:dancing:

You know I am just yanking your chain.


I am a jack of all trades, When I was 20 they called me Chef Engineer of Plano Medical Center. I think it went down hill from there and now I solvent weld.

Got tired of life or death calls to fix pumps or or fix receiver controllers because the newborns were freezing when a pneumatics Receiver controller broke. orrr...

come on.... lets not be so serious... not just you but everyone. This is a good simple business. I like not getting calls of life or death in the morning.

Yes, I am the new guy and not as experianced... so be it.

Duekster
05-21-2012, 11:03 PM
Chef LOL, Chief.

I could however tell you some stories.

Mike Leary
05-21-2012, 11:06 PM
:dancing:Yes, I am the new guy and not as experianced... so be it.

Well, you're sure as hell welcome here, you'll never get any straight answers, though there are a pile of opinions. Plus, your humor is appreciated.:)

Duekster
05-21-2012, 11:11 PM
Well, you're sure as hell welcome here, you'll never get any straight answers, though there are a pile of opinions. Plus, your humor is appreciated.:)

Means a lot. :waving:

jvanvliet
05-22-2012, 08:15 AM
I already gave the Ewing part number, are you blind ... and a piece of hardware you charge the client what .... $15 bucks or more?

Actually $17.50, and I didn't see any "Ewing" part #.

You understand how to inspect a rotor for wear and tear ..... don't you? Wait ..... let me borrow from you ..... That's pitiful, even my newbies can do that. If the rotor warrants replacement because it is near the end of it's service life, replace it. If it is a bad seal, repair it. How many f'n times do I have to say it?

We don't bother to check. They can't be repaired so we replace them; even my newbies know that!

No wonder I moved out of FL .... too many thick headed people down there.

Great, one less to have to deal with here.

And of course, what if that brand new POS PGP fails again in 3 months .... you know .... bad seal .... because they are crap and belong in the trash .... according to some here. Personally when I swap out a zone of rotors I use the RB5000 or MPRotators where appropriate. I have also said this on many occasions.

I replace the PGP on the next check; no charge. If I get called out they get a service charge.

We're not talking about swapping out a zone of rotors; if I did it would be with the RB5000 or the MPR's (and I wouldn't blend the rotors with the MPR's). We're talking about an occasional wiper seal failure. The PGP's are cheap, fairly durable and not worth repairing.

But you keep doing it the way they do it out there, it's no wonder you guys are $265 billion in debt and have a $16 billion deficit. :waving:

1idejim
05-22-2012, 09:45 AM
Actually $17.50, and I didn't see any "Ewing" part #.



We don't bother to check. They can't be repaired so we replace them; even my newbies know that!



Great, one less to have to deal with here.



I replace the PGP on the next check; no charge. If I get called out they get a service charge.

We're not talking about swapping out a zone of rotors; if I did it would be with the RB5000 or the MPR's (and I wouldn't blend the rotors with the MPR's). We're talking about an occasional wiper seal failure. The PGP's are cheap, fairly durable and not worth repairing.

But you keep doing it the way they do it out there, it's no wonder you guys are $265 billion in debt and have a $16 billion deficit. :waving:

kirils unpopular view on seal replacement has very little to do with the financial status of our state. california spends more than it can bring in. we speculate revenue and spend it before it is realized. btw since i started reading this thread we have gone another billion in the red. SWEET!
Posted via Mobile Device

Duekster
05-22-2012, 09:51 AM
California is a perfect model of what not to do and where the US is headed but I digress.

Kiril
05-22-2012, 09:58 AM
Oh brother.....create a scenario that is atypical.

Since when is a clay soil atypical?

With a 1.0 LA nozzle at 55psi you can get as low as .27"/hr. The MP 3000 at its lowest can do .44"/hour. The MPs at the top of that slope how high above the turf will the MP be at its peak height?

First, you didn't answer the question. Second, the recommended operating pressure for a MPRotator is 40 PSI ... that is 0.41 in/hr. Third, a spray needs a lower trajectory height than a stream, and since you don't know, there is a 16 degree difference between the two per specs. Fourth, the biggest complaint about MPRotators is runtime required to apply water.

So ya gonna answer the question or not?

Duekster
05-22-2012, 10:02 AM
Since when is a clay soil atypical?



First, you didn't answer the question. Second, the recommended operating pressure for a MPRotator is 40 PSI ... that is 0.41 in/hr. Third, a spray needs a lower trajectory height than a stream, and since you don't know, there is a 16 degree difference between the two per specs. Fourth, the biggest complaint about MPRotators is runtime required to apply water.

So ya gonna answer the question or not?

You can overcome the MP run time by running two stations in many cases if there is a retrofit.

I have been on Jobs where it did take over 12 hours with typical spray heads and PGPs. I was concerned about swapping out the heads with MP's but the flow is so low, you can run more than one station.

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-22-2012, 10:34 AM
Since when is a clay soil atypical?



First, you didn't answer the question. Second, the recommended operating pressure for a MPRotator is 40 PSI ... that is 0.41 in/hr. Third, a spray needs a lower trajectory height than a stream, and since you don't know, there is a 16 degree difference between the two per specs. Fourth, the biggest complaint about MPRotators is runtime required to apply water.

So ya gonna answer the question or not?

The answer to your question is the RB 5000 has more flexibility to be adapted to the different slopes and soils than the MP. The MP has one precipitation rate that varies depending on the pressure. The 5000 has 8 nozzles and 4 low angle nozzles. Nothing the 3000 MP does that the RB 5000 can't duplicate and do so with less wind loss using the LA nozzles. Now you start talking the 2000MP and the 1000MP and you have a decent winning argument. If you have a DU comparison of the 5000 LA prs versus the MP 3000 I'd like to see it. Couldn't find one myself. So at this point it is just a difference of opinion. I'm certain you could make the 5000 work effectively in places you have used the 3000. I believe the angle of the arc plays a big role in efficient watering. Especially in a hot windy climate such as Dallas. I've seen what a strong wind does to the 3000 which is why I prefer the 5000la which is less affected by it based on personal experience.

When I say 5000 I'm always referring to the prs version.

Kiril
05-22-2012, 11:19 AM
The answer to your question is the RB 5000 has more flexibility to be adapted to the different slopes and soils than the MP. The MP has one precipitation rate that varies depending on the pressure. The 5000 has 8 nozzles and 4 low angle nozzles. Nothing the 3000 MP does that the RB 5000 can't duplicate and do so with less wind loss using the LA nozzles.

Without data to show there is less wind loss, this statement is nothing more than an unsubstantiated opinion, and likely not a very accurate one. Further, the MPRotators are matched PR .... so unless you are suggesting using all the same nozzles in your 5000 series rotor your comparison is less than genuine.

Now you start talking the 2000MP and the 1000MP and you have a decent winning argument.

Why? If your entire position is based on trajectory angle, wind losses and PR, the MP2000 and 1000 only have a slightly lower trajectory angle and essentially the same PR.

If you have a DU comparison of the 5000 LA prs versus the MP 3000 I'd like to see it.

DU varies from site to site.

So at this point it is just a difference of opinion. I'm certain you could make the 5000 work effectively in places you have used the 3000. I believe the angle of the arc plays a big role in efficient watering. Especially in a hot windy climate such as Dallas. I've seen what a strong wind does to the 3000 which is why I prefer the 5000la which is less affected by it based on personal experience.

A spray type sprinkler will always have more losses in a hot windy climate than a stream type sprinkler. Granted, the LA nozzles help to keep wind losses to a minimum in your spray scenario, however I am not convinced a LA spray nozzle at r=30ft is more efficient overall than a stream nozzle at the same radius, regardless of trajectory angle differences.

When I say 5000 I'm always referring to the prs version.

Then why are you using nozzle data at 55 PSI when the rotor is regulated to 45 PSI?

Oh .... and you still haven't answered the question.

Kiril
05-22-2012, 11:25 AM
kirils unpopular view on seal replacement has very little to do with the financial status of our state.

This is true .... and I don't give a rats ass what people think. If I can squeeze another 3-5+ years out of a PGP with a 50 cent seal replacement, that amounts to a savings for the client and more intelligent use of our natural resources.

Wet_Boots
05-22-2012, 11:37 AM
the seal isn't 50 cents, not by a long margin, and it takes longer to change a seal than to simply replace the entire head, especially those in turf that has built up over the years

Kiril
05-22-2012, 11:50 AM
the seal isn't 50 cents, not by a long margin, and it takes longer to change a seal than to simply replace the entire head, especially those in turf that has built up over the years

You are right .... last time I stocked up I payed 85 cents for the seal and spring seat ..... so that means the seal was 42.5 cents .... and you are kidding yourself if you think it is quicker to replace the entire sprinkler vs. just the seal.

Wet_Boots
05-22-2012, 12:07 PM
It is much quicker on installs with marlex ells, because with those, you can't unthread the cover unless you have a wrench on the body. Replacing the seal means more digging, more time, and more chance of callbacks.

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-22-2012, 12:12 PM
Without data to show there is less wind loss, this statement is nothing more than an unsubstantiated opinion, and likely not a very accurate one. Further, the MPRotators are matched PR .... so unless you are suggesting using all the same nozzles in your 5000 series rotor your comparison is less than genuine.



Why? If your entire position is based on trajectory angle, wind losses and PR, the MP2000 and 1000 only have a slightly lower trajectory angle and essentially the same PR.



DU varies from site to site.



A spray type sprinkler will always have more losses in a hot windy climate than a stream type sprinkler. Granted, the LA nozzles help to keep wind losses to a minimum in your spray scenario, however I am not convinced a LA spray nozzle at r=30ft is more efficient overall than a stream nozzle at the same radius, regardless of trajectory angle differences.



Then why are you using nozzle data at 55 PSI when the rotor is regulated to 45 PSI?

Oh .... and you still haven't answered the question.

The question is your usual sideshow that has nothing to do with the discussion. I'll do the math when the math is pertinent to the discussion which in this case it isn't. You are claiming RB 5000 cannot be made to perform at the precipitation rates of a MP3000. Not only can it do that it can do more. I don't think anybody on this site would argue that a higher angle rotor throw can be less wind resistant than a lower angle rotor throw.

My point on the MP1000 and MP2000 is those landscape areas would not be good fits for the 5000. A good argument can be made for 1000 and 2000 against heads that do similar type areas. The 5000 is a better head in my opinion than the 3000 when both are used at recommended spacing.

By the way here is a slide show seminar where you can learn how to MPR with a RB 5000. Skip to page 30 if you don't have time for the whole seminar.
http://www.rainbird.com/landscape/resources/webinars/webinar_5%20Ways%20to%20Save%20Water%20with%20Rain%20Bird%20Rotors.pdf

Kiril
05-22-2012, 12:12 PM
It is much quicker on installs with marlex ells, because with those, you can't unthread the cover unless you have a wrench on the body. Replacing the seal means more digging, more time, and more chance of callbacks.

Bullshiit. If you don't have the right tools to do the job then you don't have any business being an irrigator.

Mike Leary
05-22-2012, 12:17 PM
Bullshiit. If you don't have the right tools to do the job then you don't have any business being an irrigator.

You two continue on, I'm going out to the site and watch my I-20s. :)

Kiril
05-22-2012, 12:24 PM
The question is your usual sideshow that has nothing to do with the discussion. I'll do the math when the math is pertinent to the discussion which in this case it isn't.

It doesn't?

MPs throw their water too high in the air. Multi cycling achieves everything an MP provides. Most water efficient head going is the RB 5000 prs/sam with a LA nozzle as far as 30' spacing goes.

You stated multi-cycling achieves everything a MP provides. I asked you how many cycles and soaks it would take with a given Ksat for both nozzles.

I have a soil with a Ksat of 0.18 in/hour and a 6% slope. How many cycles and soak time between those would I need if I use a RB5000 with a LA nozzle. Compare that to a MPRotator.

Please explain to me how this is not pertinent to the statement you made. Perhaps you would like to rewrite it so it doesn't apply?

You are claiming RB 5000 cannot be made to perform at the precipitation rates of a MP3000.

I made no such claim.

Not only can it do that it can do more. I don't think anybody on this site would argue that a higher angle rotor throw can be less wind resistant than a lower angle rotor throw.

You are comparing a stream to a spray. Your above statement is applicable in a spray to spray comparison and is absolutely correct. That said. the droplet size for a stream rotor is significantly larger than a spray .... especially the LA nozzles for the 5000. So unless you are prepared to present the physics, again you are just throwing around unsubstantiated opinion.

My point on the MP1000 and MP2000 is those landscape areas would not be good fits for the 5000. A good argument can be made for 1000 and 2000 against heads that do similar type areas. The 5000 is a better head in my opinion than the 3000 when both are used at recommended spacing.

Perhaps in some cases, but how would you know this? If I am not mistaken you had already retired when the 5000 hit the market.

By the way here is a slide show seminar where you can learn how to MPR with a RB 5000. Skip to page 30 if you don't have time for the whole seminar.
http://www.rainbird.com/landscape/resources/webinars/webinar_5%20Ways%20to%20Save%20Water%20with%20Rain%20Bird%20Rotors.pdf

I don't need a seminar on how to match precipitation rates.

Wet_Boots
05-22-2012, 12:27 PM
Bullshiit. If you don't have the right tools to do the job then you don't have any business being an irrigator.Go right ahead and post your video with you changing PGP seals and your viewpoint might gain some traction. Might. ;)

Kiril
05-22-2012, 12:31 PM
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-22-2012, 12:34 PM
I installed plenty of 5000s and MPs. MPs are great retrofit nozzles on an existing system for various reasons. In an installation I would use 1000s and 2000s but I would use RB 5000s before I'd use MP3000s. I've seen the MP 3000 get hit with wind and watched the long stream literally miss the yard completely. It can be blown completely back over the head in the opposite direction of its original direction. How much DU is lost when the long stream is getting blown all over the place? I've never seen a 5000LA suffer from the wind like i've seen MP3000s. As far as droplets vs spray the MP has its finer mist streams. The RB5000 used properly will put out little mist. One reason I always recommend the PRS version.

Kiril
05-22-2012, 12:37 PM
I installed plenty of 5000s and MPs. MPs are great retrofit nozzles on an existing system for various reasons. In an installation I would use 1000s and 2000s but I would use RB 5000s before I'd use MP3000s. I've seen the MP 3000 get hit with wind and watched the long stream literally miss the yard completely. It can be blown completely back over the head in the opposite direction of its original direction. How much DU is lost when the long stream is getting blown all over the place? I've never seen a 5000LA suffer from the wind like i've seen MP3000s. As far as droplets vs spray the MP has its finer mist streams. The RB5000 used properly will put out little mist. One reason I always recommend the PRS version.

OK Pete, whatever you say and keep dodging the question. Why anyone would be irrigating at wind speeds that are capable of completely reversing the direction of a 30 foot stream rotor is beyond me, but heh .... git ur dun. :rolleyes:

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-22-2012, 12:50 PM
There is no wind speed the MP3000 performs better than the RB5000. I worked in one of the windiest places in the US. I can assure you my experience in battling the wind far exceeds yours.

Wet_Boots
05-22-2012, 01:02 PM
once again, we see that life on The Prairie blows :p - (by the way, these new smileys suck)

mrsteve
05-22-2012, 01:36 PM
It appears that some of you guys have too much free time. As a practicing Irrigator I would ask can't we all just get along. How about helping each other with constructive comments. Real world stuff that will help those of us in the trade when making decisions on what head or controller to use, based on the experiences of others. I read on here somewhere that one of the forum users copied a fix for the Rain Bird Modular (MV ERR) problem. That was very much appreciated since I had seen that very thing, but wasn't aware that Rain Bird had addressed it. Maybe it's all in good fun I don't know, I'm new here and don't know the personalities of the posters. Good information is valuable, a hissing contest not so much. Thanks

Wet_Boots
05-22-2012, 01:43 PM
It appears that some of you guys have too much free time. As a practicing Irrigator I would ask can't we all just get along. How about helping each other with constructive comments. Real world stuff that will help those of us in the trade when making decisions on what head or controller to use, based on the experiences of others. I read on here somewhere that one of the forum users copied a fix for the Rain Bird Modular (MV ERR) problem. That was very much appreciated since I had seen that very thing, but wasn't aware that Rain Bird had addressed it. Maybe it's all in good fun I don't know, I'm new here and don't know the personalities of the posters. Good information is valuable, a hissing contest not so much. Thanksyou might as well ask the Three Stooges to get along :)

Kiril
05-22-2012, 02:07 PM
There is no wind speed the MP3000 performs better than the RB5000. I worked in one of the windiest places in the US. I can assure you my experience in battling the wind far exceeds yours.

Did you typically work and irrigate at 80 meters above the earths surface? But of course your experience covers every possible scenario with every product ever produced both past, present, and no doubt future as well .... and no doubt far exceeds any other irrigator in the world .... and most certainly my nearly 2 decades of experience. :dizzy: :rolleyes:

Want to take a gander at wind speeds in the central valley?

http://wwwcimis.water.ca.gov/cimis/welcome.jsp

Knock yourself out bud, and it ain't no extrapolated maps at 80 meters either.

And you still haven't answered the question. :hammerhead:

Kiril
05-22-2012, 02:10 PM
Good information is valuable, a hissing contest not so much. Thanks

A "hissing contest" is what you get when people spew unsubstantiated opinions as if they were facts.

Wet_Boots
05-22-2012, 02:18 PM
A "hissing contest" is what you get when people spew unsubstantiated opinions as if they were facts.we eagerly await your PGP-repair video, to show us all the error of our ways :drinkup:

Duekster
05-22-2012, 03:15 PM
I installed plenty of 5000s and MPs. MPs are great retrofit nozzles on an existing system for various reasons. In an installation I would use 1000s and 2000s but I would use RB 5000s before I'd use MP3000s. I've seen the MP 3000 get hit with wind and watched the long stream literally miss the yard completely. It can be blown completely back over the head in the opposite direction of its original direction. How much DU is lost when the long stream is getting blown all over the place? I've never seen a 5000LA suffer from the wind like i've seen MP3000s. As far as droplets vs spray the MP has its finer mist streams. The RB5000 used properly will put out little mist. One reason I always recommend the PRS version.



Based on this post, I may reconsider my position. I know Hunter bought the MP line and jacked up the price of the 3000. If you say the rotors work better with wind then I will accept that as gospil.
Not real fond of giving RB any more of my business for reasons aired out all ready.

Right now I am looking at a client site with 4 stations, when my math says they need 6. They want to add some drip to trees.

I do not want to have to upgrade the POC, and pull permits to add stations and I doubt the trees would need a lot of supplimental watering if the stations were getting full coverage. All you have to do it look at the grass to see it is not getting enough.

I was hoping the MP's might be a solution but in this case I am not saving any flow.

I really would not mind just telling her to go after the installer.

Duekster
05-22-2012, 03:16 PM
It appears that some of you guys have too much free time. As a practicing Irrigator I would ask can't we all just get along. How about helping each other with constructive comments. Real world stuff that will help those of us in the trade when making decisions on what head or controller to use, based on the experiences of others. I read on here somewhere that one of the forum users copied a fix for the Rain Bird Modular (MV ERR) problem. That was very much appreciated since I had seen that very thing, but wasn't aware that Rain Bird had addressed it. Maybe it's all in good fun I don't know, I'm new here and don't know the personalities of the posters. Good information is valuable, a hissing contest not so much. Thanks

You are just going to jump in like I did.

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-22-2012, 03:25 PM
Mr steve there is actually some pretty useful info that can be learned from these hissing matches. Do I repair a pgp or replace? Opines available. What kind of head should I use in a windy situation? Opines available. Arrogant stubborn people have hissing matches. No way around it.
Anyway here is a city by city wind speed.
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/online/ccd/avgwind.html

Not once did I suggest my info was facts. My info was based on personal experience and was stated that way several times. I have tried both the MP3000 and the RB5000 in windy situations and I would use the RB5000. I hope others will experiment on their own and decide for themselves rather than pick sides in a hissing match.

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-22-2012, 03:26 PM
Based on this post, I may reconsider my position. I know Hunter bought the MP line and jacked up the price of the 3000. If you say the rotors work better with wind then I will accept that as gospil.
Not real fond of giving RB any more of my business for reasons aired out all ready.

Right now I am looking at a client site with 4 stations, when my math says they need 6. They want to add some drip to trees.

I do not want to have to upgrade the POC, and pull permits to add stations and I doubt the trees would need a lot of supplimental watering if the stations were getting full coverage. All you have to do it look at the grass to see it is not getting enough.

I was hoping the MP's might be a solution but in this case I am not saving any flow.

I really would not mind just telling her to go after the installer.
Not Gospel just opinion. Try the RB5000prs with the low angle nozzles and compare is all I'm asking.

Mike Leary
05-22-2012, 04:50 PM
My info was based on personal experience and was stated that way several times. I have tried both the MP3000 and the RB5000 in windy situations and I would use the RB5000. I hope others will experiment on their own and decide for themselves rather than pick sides in a hissing match.

I've posted pics of both the MP and the 5000 heads in windage, but prolly deleted them because I thought we got it squared away. The 5000, hands down, performs better in windage because it's a single throw, where the MP is a "poor mans' Stream Rotor" and subject to bendage. That being said, I've got zones with the 2000 and 3000 MPs that, with enough pressure, do pretty damn good. Kiril will fall off his high-chair, but I've got a couple of MP zones that are pushing 90 psi and doing tolerable in windage. :clapping:

Wet_Boots
05-22-2012, 04:53 PM
Rain Jet heads would be good in a breeze, from their large water drops and low angle of throw.

Mike Leary
05-22-2012, 05:00 PM
Low angle nozzles suck. I use the MPR tree for the 5000 series, work great, even in windage.

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-22-2012, 05:03 PM
True Dat. The early rain jets were amazing heads. Had a customer with three zones of RJs in the backyard by a pond and some shrubbery he didn't mind throwing in to. It was awesome to watch. I went and bought every 3/4" RJ Riggs irrigation supply had so I could keep it going.

mrsteve
05-22-2012, 05:16 PM
you might as well ask the Three Stooges to get along :)
That's funny...think there is only three

Duekster
05-22-2012, 05:28 PM
I now the MP's have great DU performance, you can adjust them with your eyes closed with great accuracy.

mrsteve
05-22-2012, 05:28 PM
Mr steve there is actually some pretty useful info that can be learned from these hissing matches. Do I repair a pgp or replace? Opines available. What kind of head should I use in a windy situation? Opines available. Arrogant stubborn people have hissing matches. No way around it.
Anyway here is a city by city wind speed.
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/online/ccd/avgwind.html

Not once did I suggest my info was facts. My info was based on personal experience and was stated that way several times. I have tried both the MP3000 and the RB5000 in windy situations and I would use the RB5000. I hope others will experiment on their own and decide for themselves rather than pick sides in a hissing match.
Point taken. Hey, I got so motivated from all the MP talk that I changed out my very weak sprays at my shop for MP2000's today. Worked pretty well, I think it will pick up the dry spots I was starting to see. My home and office are the proving ground for a lot of the new stuff when it first comes out. If it works as advertised then on to the customers. I'm on board with drip for beds, since I don't install anymore I have not had to do it in turf yet. Might try it if I can find a good way to cut the baby trench.

Kiril
05-22-2012, 05:34 PM
Ummm Pete .... you are the one who turned this into a hissing match .... and one that doesn't even address the question that started this. So let me remind you again of the question that you have yet to answer.

MPs throw their water too high in the air. Multi cycling achieves everything an MP provides. Most water efficient head going is the RB 5000 prs/sam with a LA nozzle as far as 30' spacing goes.

I have a soil with a Ksat of 0.18 in/hour and a 6% slope. How many cycles and soak time between those would I need if I use a RB5000 with a LA nozzle. Compare that to a MPRotator.

Do you see anything about wind there? Can you answer the question or not?

Oh, and a reminder .... MPRotators in operation on a curve with a 6 MPH wind blowing towards the hardscape.

http://www.lawnsite.com/showpost.php?p=3975596&postcount=36

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-22-2012, 06:01 PM
Let's see in this thread you've argued with Jvan. You've argued with boots. You've argued with me. Nobody agrees with you on wasting time replacing pgp seals. Mike has stated what we all know but you that a RB 5000 will do better in wind than a MP 3000. It would be a healthy development for you to admit you are in the middle of hissing matches that you are just as responsible for starting. This isn't kindergarten here where we whine YOU STARTED IT waaah waaah waah

Wet_Boots
05-22-2012, 06:17 PM
Let's see in this thread you've argued with Jvan. You've argued with boots. You've argued with me. Nobody agrees with you on wasting time replacing pgp seals. Mike has stated what we all know but you that a RB 5000 will do better in wind than a MP 3000. It would be a healthy development for you to admit you are in the middle of hissing matches that you are just as responsible for starting. This isn't kindergarten here where we whine YOU STARTED IT waaah waaah waahyeah, that's for the Political forum :nono:

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-22-2012, 06:21 PM
Thank goodness I had the courage to see my errant soul and get myself blocked from that forum. I bet y'all miss me though.

Wet_Boots
05-22-2012, 06:23 PM
the birthers are back :dizzy:

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-22-2012, 06:28 PM
Ohhh noo. Birthers get him more votes than they take away. Maybe the Truthers will join the fray and it will all balance out.

Kiril
05-22-2012, 06:30 PM
Mike has stated what we all know but you that a RB 5000 will do better in wind than a MP 3000.

Hmmmm, since you feel it appropriate to put words in my mouth, let me remind you what I said.

A spray type sprinkler will always have more losses in a hot windy climate than a stream type sprinkler. Granted, the LA nozzles help to keep wind losses to a minimum in your spray scenario, however I am not convinced a LA spray nozzle at r=30ft is more efficient overall than a stream nozzle at the same radius, regardless of trajectory angle differences.

Now Pete, until you can produce data to show one or the other can perform better at the required run times of the two nozzles you are obsessing on, under the exact same climatic conditions, then your "opinion" means nothing. Beyond the fact you obviously can't answer the question, even a rookie irrigator can see that the runtime of your #1 LA nozzle will be almost double that of the MP3000 to put down an equivalent amount of water. Care to comment on the amount of losses to evaporation, overspray and DU as a result of nothing more than the difference in run times in a hot & windy scenario?

With regard to boots and jvan .... well what do you expect when you got a couple of yahoos talking out of their ass? Clearly neither one of them have ever replaced a PGP seal ..... and yet they are experts on the repair.

It would be a healthy development for you to admit you are in the middle of hissing matches that you are just as responsible for starting. This isn't kindergarten here where we whine YOU STARTED IT waaah waaah waah

Oh yes .... I get castrated because I replace PGP seals when appropriate instead of replacing the whole rotor .... yet I started it. :rolleyes: Get a clue pete.

Mike Leary
05-22-2012, 06:31 PM
::::Hopes to never be so bored as to go on to that forum::::

Mike Leary
05-22-2012, 06:37 PM
Oh yes .... I get castrated because I replace PGP seals when appropriate instead of replacing the whole rotor ....

If you decide to change gigs, there are a lot of vocal groups and choirs that are looking for someone to sing high soprano. :headphones:

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-22-2012, 06:39 PM
Clue>>>>>>>Col Mustard with the Candlestick in the Library

DanaMac
05-22-2012, 06:42 PM
I too am in the replace the rotor group. I'm not going to dink around with it. The rotor is cheap enough, and they'll get a new 3 or 5 year (I forget which it is ) warranty on the head. Can't stock every single possible repair component on the planet.

Wet_Boots
05-22-2012, 06:56 PM
I did give replacing the PGP seals a try, since I have some of the freebie kits they gave out, but replacing the seal was just not a sure thing. The only good thing I can say about the practice is that it was a lot quicker in comparison than replacing the seals in the Super600 heads, which required removing the nozzle turret and replacing it, and re-aligning it to the proper arc, then re-tightening the set screw.

Duekster
05-22-2012, 07:51 PM
Did I miss anything?

Wet_Boots
05-22-2012, 07:55 PM
nope, Kiril is still fighting the good fight, for downtrodden PGPs everywhere

Duekster
05-22-2012, 08:01 PM
As much as I am for conservation and such.... making a return trip would likely burn more gas than I saved just replacing seals. Put the old heads in the recycle bin if it means that much.

Warranty new stuff. Clients have a way of not understanding you did not actually fix their problem.

jvanvliet
05-22-2012, 08:20 PM
It is much quicker on installs with marlex ells, because with those, you can't unthread the cover unless you have a wrench on the body. Replacing the seal means more digging, more time, and more chance of callbacks.

I hate that; You shouldn't need a wrench to unthread the cover if it's installed properly. I keep telling my people it only needs to be 1/4 turn past "snug" or hand tight. That way it really does take us way less than 5 minutes to replace.

jvanvliet
05-22-2012, 08:27 PM
Thank goodness I had the courage to see my errant soul and get myself blocked from that forum. I bet y'all miss me though.

Cmon back, I'll vouch for you. It's almost as much fun as baiting Kiril.

Wet_Boots
05-22-2012, 08:31 PM
I want to see Curley's birth certificate :mad:

jvanvliet
05-22-2012, 08:39 PM
He's an anchor baby:p

Duekster
05-22-2012, 08:39 PM
Where is Shemp Howard?

jvanvliet
05-22-2012, 08:41 PM
Where is Shemp Howard?

Dead!

Do you want his boots? :D

Mike Leary
05-22-2012, 08:46 PM
I hate that; You shouldn't need a wrench to unthread the cover if it's installed properly. I keep telling my people it only needs to be 1/4 turn past "snug" or hand tight. That way it really does take us way less than 5 minutes to replace.

Unless you've got the hand-grips of steel,they usually need excavating so as to get a big boy aluminum pipe wrench in to hold the body and a pair of channel locks to pull the bonnet. It's a huge pain, and time/money consuming.

Wet_Boots
05-22-2012, 09:06 PM
Unless you've got the hand-grips of steel,they usually need excavating so as to get a big boy aluminum pipe wrench in to hold the body and a pair of channel locks to pull the bonnet. It's a huge pain, and time/money consuming.Not that it would apply now to anything but the 300 series stream rotor, but I always wondered why Toro couldn't come up with an offset spanner wrench for the rotor bodies, since they had the four lugs near the cover threads.