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Agape
05-20-2012, 05:49 PM
Rented a dingo a while back and loved it, but found it a bit underpowered/ undersized for excavation (paver patio). what is the best "all around"equipment to buy if your budget only allows for one machine right now.:waving:

Duekster
05-20-2012, 06:07 PM
a full sized skid steer. As big as you think you can use regularly. The beauty of the ding is the places it can go, not the power.

Agape
05-20-2012, 06:28 PM
a full sized skid steer. As big as you think you can use regularly. The beauty of the ding is the places it can go, not the power.

What would u consider full size? If i bought new i was looking at a Case sr130 with 43hp. Or whatever i can get if used.

Duekster
05-20-2012, 06:32 PM
Dingo and others like it are considered a mini skid steer and you walk behind it.

sven1277
05-20-2012, 06:55 PM
The biggest problem with a 43hp ss is it won't pick up a full pallet. Otherwiseit will work well

Duekster
05-20-2012, 07:32 PM
Moving a whole pallet of grass or block is an issue.

Agape
05-20-2012, 08:21 PM
Well if i spend the$$$, i definitely wanna carry pallets? The 150 has a "tipping load" of 2600#. is that the weight that will lever it on its nose? And i assume thats not moving?

DVS Hardscaper
05-20-2012, 09:01 PM
Full size skid steers are rated at 60 to 80 hp
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Red Shed Landscaping
05-20-2012, 09:34 PM
I started off with a smaller skid loader and would have to take the top layers of pallets off to move them and finally 2 years ago I got a bigger 73hp loader that its tipping load is 3400lbs and can lift about all the pallets and saves a huge amount of time.

DVS Hardscaper
05-20-2012, 11:11 PM
yeah, that little compact stuff will limit you.

i have never owned any of the little compact stuff, nor had a need. If we have a tight area - we rent a walk behind skid loader.

Otherwise a true full size skid loader can be used for anything under the sun year round.


.

Agape
05-21-2012, 03:28 PM
yeah, that little compact stuff will limit you.

i have never owned any of the little compact stuff, nor had a need. If we have a tight area - we rent a walk behind skid loader.

Otherwise a true full size skid loader can be used for anything under the sun year round.


.

Understood, I know what to look for thanks!

SSmith
05-21-2012, 04:41 PM
Yanmar mini excavator is a beast as well. Better for walls than patios, though.

Agape
05-21-2012, 06:06 PM
I can get a backhoe attchmt, for walls. My buddy uses a bobcat walkbehind exclusively, but i want the power to just drive through it. someday, though, i'll be able to afford multiple machines.

Does anyone use a small tractor with backhoe? Like a john deere?
Then i could use the tiller, forks, brushcutter etc... Would it be the best of both worlds? Or would it be under powered or under "tractioned"?

Duekster
05-21-2012, 06:16 PM
Your questions are typical and frankly there are trade offs. You have to decide if you can use a piece of equipment to justify owning it and making payment.

You might be better off renting for a while until you figure out what you need. If it helps, I am kind of in the same boat. I likely could use a mini-skid steer the most but it is under powered for a lot of jobs but works well for others. It is a Goldie locks deal.

DVS Hardscaper
05-21-2012, 06:24 PM
In a perfect world, a contractor needs at least one of each.

But until you can afford one of each this is the order of importance:

1) rubber tire skid steer (unless you're in a region with heavy clay soil, such as Northern VA)

2) a second skid steer for loading and unloading the truck at your yard

3) a compact track loader

4) a compact utility tractor (this is handy for small, light, quick, in and out jobs)

5) a mini excavator

6) a walk behind skid steer


I have all everything above except for the excavator and walk behind skid steer. doubt we'll ever have the waLK behind skid steer.

Also, our local rental company stopped using Dingos for their fleet for their 5 stores and switched to Ditch Witch walk behind skid steers. They said they had too many problems with the DIngos

Duekster
05-21-2012, 06:29 PM
In a perfect world, a contractor needs at least one of each.

But until you can afford one of each this is the order of importance:

1) rubber tire skid steer (unless you're in a region with heavy clay soil, such as Northern VA)

2) a second skid steer for loading and unloading the truck at your yard

3) a compact track loader

4) a compact utility tractor (this is handy for small, light, quick, in and out jobs)

5) a mini excavator

6) a walk behind skid steer


I have all everything above except for the excavator and walk behind skid steer. doubt we'll ever have the waLK behind skid steer.

Also, our local rental company stopped using Dingos for their fleet for their 5 stores and switched to Ditch Witch walk behind skid steers. They said they had too many problems with the DIngos

Love your sigs below.

Tires vs treads depends on a lot of variables too right.

DVS Hardscaper
05-21-2012, 07:14 PM
Love your sigs below.

Tires vs treads depends on a lot of variables too right.



Thanks! I think it's time to trade in the CAT hat, though!


In my opinion, yes.

Don't spend money on toys that you can get by without. Landscape and hardscape guys are ego driven. Work pick up trucks with leather interior, diesel engines, etc. Brand new skid steers and excavators with every attachment in the catalog. Tracked machines are pricey, replacement tracks are even more. Our hardscape work is limited to a certain geographic area in MD. The soil is not heavy in clay, and rubber tire machines perform well for us. So well that it does not justify the expense of tracked.

On the other hand we do other work (non-hardscape / landscape related) in another geographic area with heavy clay soil. And you'd be a fool to even think about taking a rubber tired machine through the yards.

Walk behind skid steers are handy. But if you're new and starting out - you're limiting yourself from other income potential.

SSmith
05-21-2012, 07:46 PM
Somebody probably died using a dingo. Those things are death traps. If you let off a stiff fart it wants to tip over on you.

Duekster
05-21-2012, 08:05 PM
Somebody probably died using a dingo. Those things are death traps. If you let off a stiff fart it wants to tip over on you.

It is not that bad but it is light weight.

Wait, the wife said my farts caused global warming

zedosix
05-21-2012, 08:06 PM
I think a fully decked out King Ranch f350 is the most important tool that a hardscaper can have. Then secondly a mini ex. :)

Duekster
05-21-2012, 08:26 PM
I think a fully decked out King Ranch f350 is the most important tool that a hardscaper can have. Then secondly a mini ex. :)

Instead of love them and leave them it sounds like impress then and depress them.


I think the mini's have a great place in the busines. I am just kidding you, since I do not know you.

zedosix
05-21-2012, 08:35 PM
Instead of love them and leave them it sounds like impress then and depress them.


I think the mini's have a great place in the busines. I am just kidding you, since I do not know you.

Impressing them usually comes from my work, not my truck. (ok, sometimes the truck) But after being in business as long as I have and spending as much time as I do in a truck, you'd want only the best too!

Duekster
05-21-2012, 09:14 PM
Impressing them usually comes from my work, not my truck. (ok, sometimes the truck) But after being in business as long as I have and spending as much time as I do in a truck, you'd want only the best too!

I agree, the workers really hate new trucks I break them in. Nonetheless, I never buy something not ready to work and be placed in real service soon.

Birchwood
05-21-2012, 10:59 PM
Now, I was really thinking about buying a dingo, I've had a full size skid steer but we do a lot of renovation work, where I don't want to tear up the yard. So we would leave the machine on the street to load trucks and wheel barrows. With a dingo we could do the same (not as fast) but we could also dig. I also think we could use it to set out cropping, we do alot of it with a ball cart right now.

SDLandscapes VT
05-21-2012, 11:40 PM
I own a Ditch Witch mini-skid and it is perfect for us--mostly renovation work backyards, decks etc. We don't do much hardscaping however we have used it for several walkways and it performs far better than a crew with a shovel. We will be using in combination with a mini excavator on a job here in the near future and I believe that they will be very complimentary. Full size machine would be overkill for most of our jobs---would like one at the shop for loading trucks and winter work though

pacemkr
06-24-2012, 07:56 PM
i purchased a vermeer tx650 mini track steer this spring, after repeated rentals last year of a 525 dingo.
This little machine has absolutely changed my business with greater efficiency and productivity.

zedosix
06-24-2012, 09:28 PM
i purchased a vermeer tx650 mini track steer this spring, after repeated rentals last year of a 525 dingo.
This little machine has absolutely changed my business with greater efficiency and productivity.

Thats a start but in the hardscaping business anyone working without a mini-ex is missing the boat.

alldayrj
06-24-2012, 10:33 PM
I feel like I'm missing the boat :( just waiting for the right deal to come up.
its funny, you find ways to make it work with what you have, but once you have the right tool for the job, its like how did I ever do this without it???

pacemkr
06-24-2012, 10:39 PM
I feel like I'm missing the boat :( just waiting for the right deal to come up.
its funny, you find ways to make it work with what you have, but once you have the right tool for the job, its like how did I ever do this without it???
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Agape
06-24-2012, 10:49 PM
i purchased a vermeer tx650 mini track steer this spring, after repeated rentals last year of a 525 dingo.
This little machine has absolutely changed my business with greater efficiency and productivity.

Whats the HP and lift capacity of the vermeer?

pacemkr
06-24-2012, 10:55 PM
Exactly my point alldayrj,
My guys have never been so vocal about a piece of equipment, saves our backs, and our time.
If I could say, after using the competing products like the dingo and bobcat, the vermeer is way better, stronger, safer. I sound like a salesman.
Finished a job two weeks ago: approx 550sq.ft interlock with armor stone retaining wall etc.,,way down the side and behind a large sub division home.
Drop over 9 feet in grade from front of house to back , approx 60ft.
Would never get a full size skid str back down there, let alone a mini ex.
Hit clay and water under topsoil,.had to remove everything in back yard and refill with proper aggregate and cloth, grid,.etc. Brought in 65 tons of aggregate just to backfill plus whatever I needed for patio build.
This machine saved me and the customer literally thousands. Can't imagine how we would have completed that job properly and in good time without that one piece of equipment. It has just been a real blessing. Good luck in your search.
I've heard good things about the little husgvarna tracked buckets also.
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pacemkr
06-24-2012, 11:11 PM
Whats the HP and lift capacity of the vermeer?

Don't quote me on this, but the hp is around 30.
Lift capacity is only rated at 675lbs.
But it will lift allot more than that easily.
I commonly use it to transport armor stone from front of property into back yards using pallet forks.
I just try to keep rocks under 1000lbs. And move on soft surfaces, no scrubbing on concrete etc.
it will lift and dump into a 48"side dump trailer, f550,
Or similar. Something I found the dingo would not do was go high enough to fill the back of a truck properly.
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AztlanLC
06-25-2012, 12:05 AM
If I were to start my business again I would buy a mini ex before the skid steer and the mini skid steer, I now seldom use my skid steer and the mini skid.

TomG
06-25-2012, 06:44 PM
Thats a start but in the hardscaping business anyone working without a mini-ex is missing the boat.

100% agree with that. We purchased a 5t mini-ex last year and it already has 650hrs on it. (That's a lot for our seasonal company, our 2001 3.5t mini-ex only has 1400hrs). The 5t mini is our most used piece of equipment over the last year and a half. The small walkway jobs with granite stoops that we used to have to bring the small mini and a skid to can now be done with this machine. Nearly all patios are excavated, prepped and graded with this machine. An excavator in the hands of a good operator is the most versatile machine you can have.

scagrider22
06-25-2012, 06:54 PM
100% agree with that. We purchased a 5t mini-ex last year and it already has 650hrs on it. (That's a lot for our seasonal company, our 2001 3.5t mini-ex only has 1400hrs). The 5t mini is our most used piece of equipment over the last year and a half. The small walkway jobs with granite stoops that we used to have to bring the small mini and a skid to can now be done with this machine. Nearly all patios are excavated, prepped and graded with this machine. An excavator in the hands of a good operator is the most versatile machine you can have.

I agree 100% we use our mini probably 5x's more than our skid. About the only thing I use a skid for is moving pallets of block and pavers.

alldayrj
06-25-2012, 06:54 PM
Do you find yourself running jobs differently having the mini ex? For example, sometimes i load the truck with the skid, send him to dump, and keep hauling with the skid to the street. How would you do this with a mini ex? I imagine an ex with a tooth bucket doesnt clean up the street well.
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TomG
06-25-2012, 07:23 PM
Do you find yourself running jobs differently having the mini ex? For example, sometimes i load the truck with the skid, send him to dump, and keep hauling with the skid to the street. How would you do this with a mini ex? I imagine an ex with a tooth bucket doesnt clean up the street well.
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Yes, usually more planning is involved. Lets take a 50' walkway for example. Excavate the material and dump it directly in a truck (our 5t can load any size truck even tri-axles) then scoop gravel directly out of another truck and place in walkway. On jobs that only the mini-ex is on we almost never dump material. Always work out of the truck. I can lift full pallets of material out of a 6 wheeler no problem and place them. Also being really efficient with an excavator depends on what attachments you have. We have a 24" tooth bucket, 36" tooth bucket, 52" grading bucket w/power tilt(you can tilt the bucket 90deg to either side) and a hydraulic breaker.

SDLandscapes VT
06-25-2012, 08:14 PM
So tomG how are you getting these trucks into backyards and how do you remediate the soil compaction??

TomG
06-25-2012, 08:35 PM
So tomG how are you getting these trucks into backyards and how do you remediate the soil compaction??

Well my example was with a walkway. Almost all those are off driveways so obv no issue with that. But for patios, we usually have a skid onsite as well. There aren't and nice level sites anymore. So material must be brought in with the skid. All depends on the site. But a long long time ago we stopped trying to save peoples lawns, used to throw down ply-wood and all that good stuff. Just repair with loam and seed it. Its grass it will grow back.

SDLandscapes VT
06-25-2012, 08:44 PM
TomG

I read my post again...I wasn't trying to be snarky or mean....

On a further exploratory level--those here that just hardscape and those that landscape as well. What do you do to get rid of the compaction caused by the machinery and materials entering and exiting the site--particularly if the entrance/exit will be landscaped.

zedosix
06-25-2012, 09:12 PM
TomG

I read my post again...I wasn't trying to be snarky or mean....

On a further exploratory level--those here that just hardscape and those that landscape as well. What do you do to get rid of the compaction caused by the machinery and materials entering and exiting the site--particularly if the entrance/exit will be landscaped.

We use plywood to run our mini ex down the property line between homes and hydraulic wheelbarrows do the running back and forth with the waste, and with the granular. Typical situations our workways don't get compacted much at all. I think you'd be looking at less than 10lbs per sq.in with full loads. I'm on a job now where the only tool I've used is my kx-91, its handled large rocks, excavated 800sqft. I had the truck back up right to the patio and loaded directly into it. No mess. My track loader has sat idle most of this job. I think the question to this op should be what 2 machines are best for hardscaping. Mini x first, track loader second. imo anyway.

4 seasons lawn&land
06-25-2012, 09:15 PM
Thanks! I think it's time to trade in the CAT hat, though!


In my opinion, yes.

Don't spend money on toys that you can get by without. Landscape and hardscape guys are ego driven. Work pick up trucks with leather interior, diesel engines, etc. Brand new skid steers and excavators with every attachment in the catalog. Tracked machines are pricey, replacement tracks are even more. Our hardscape work is limited to a certain geographic area in MD. The soil is not heavy in clay, and rubber tire machines perform well for us. So well that it does not justify the expense of tracked.

On the other hand we do other work (non-hardscape / landscape related) in another geographic area with heavy clay soil. And you'd be a fool to even think about taking a rubber tired machine through the yards.

Walk behind skid steers are handy. But if you're new and starting out - you're limiting yourself from other income potential.




Hey hey I dont beat up you business practices lol:laugh:

TomG
06-25-2012, 09:41 PM
TomG

I read my post again...I wasn't trying to be snarky or mean....

On a further exploratory level--those here that just hardscape and those that landscape as well. What do you do to get rid of the compaction caused by the machinery and materials entering and exiting the site--particularly if the entrance/exit will be landscaped.

No worries, didn't mean to come across harsh, been a long day working in the rain. We found we would spend more time trying not to mess up lawns than it would to just mess them up and repair them. Most people realize that there will be lawn damage and are fine with it (of course we explain that to them from the beginning)

SDLandscapes VT
06-25-2012, 09:48 PM
No I understand lawn damage....the damage I m talking about is the compaction to the soil from vehicular traffic in a concentrated area--particularly if it rains. Just loaming the ruts doesn't fix the underlying problem of the compaction in the soil profile.

We do tear up our share of grass--I m just looking for the fastest method for truly repairing compacted egress routes. Right now I prefer rotadairon with compost amendments then seed---just wanted to see if there was something else

alldayrj
06-25-2012, 10:29 PM
Yes, usually more planning is involved. Lets take a 50' walkway for example. Excavate the material and dump it directly in a truck (our 5t can load any size truck even tri-axles) then scoop gravel directly out of another truck and place in walkway. On jobs that only the mini-ex is on we almost never dump material. Always work out of the truck. I can lift full pallets of material out of a 6 wheeler no problem and place them. Also being really efficient with an excavator depends on what attachments you have. We have a 24" tooth bucket, 36" tooth bucket, 52" grading bucket w/power tilt(you can tilt the bucket 90deg to either side) and a hydraulic breaker.

thanks tom.

unfortunately I'm still working with a skid and 1 truck so when it comes time to add a mini ex I will probably have to bring the skid as well.

any other tips to running a job with a mini ex? not operating wise, I want to make the transition from using one tool for every job to two tools (skid and ex) more effectively/ productively

DVS Hardscaper
06-25-2012, 10:55 PM
So many tools are available. So many variables.

I have a buddy that owns an excavating company. He has around 36 pieces of equipment. One thing he does not one a single one of - is an excavator. He says it's cheaper to rent one by the month rather than buy one because each job always requires a different size machine.

Same mentality could be said for building patios. So many equipment choices.

I always think about the grand scheme of staffing. If you buy a truck with air brakes will you find honest dependable hard working people that can drive it? If you use an excavator to dig for a patio will you always readily have an employee that can run it?


.

alldayrj
06-25-2012, 11:04 PM
I would love to add a 550, a triaxle, a mini skid, a CTL, and a mini ex but only in my dreams!

so what kind of equipment DOES he own?? and why? the same argument could be made about skid steer sizes

DVS Hardscaper
06-25-2012, 11:26 PM
Seems most of the folks partaking in this discussion are small owner operators (such as myself).

When you're small, it's important to diversify as much as possible. The last two weeks of July and 1st (2) weeks of August are usually slow periods in the residential hardscape industry, as this is peak vacation time. Limiting yourself to a compact walk behind loader will hinder you from taking on other jobs to fill in for the slow periods.

If you excavate with a certain machine - will you always be able to load the truck direct from the work site? Of all the jobs we do annually - I think we may ever only have 2 to 3 jobs where we could actually get the truck near the worksite. We do not drive trucks in the client's yards. I've never been a fan of that concept. Heck, its seldom that even if we wanted to, that we'd even be able to get the truck into the backyard. It's either no access, too tight, too steep, or too muddy.

alldayrj
06-26-2012, 07:22 AM
yea i frequently find myself driving the skid in the yard and either
A. using it to haul out and in material to the truck or street
or
B. load 3 wheelbarrows til we're done excavating then bringing it to the street to do the same thing with base matl.

the worst thing about patios? they're in the damn back yard!!! people only see the mess and commotion and not the beautiful finished product

DVS Hardscaper
06-26-2012, 09:00 AM
See, Tom works for a company that has multiple pieces of equipment. Whatever the scenario, they're equipped to do the work efficiently.

I'm pricing a patio now, an there is a steep hill into the back yard. No one is getting a truck back there. So that rules out an excavator. It's too far to walk a mini skid steer back and forth. This patio is under a deck - excavator ruled out again, the boom will rip the deck down. A walk behind skid steer would be perfect, but it's too small to get the spoils from point a to point b in a timely manner. You have to really look at the overall picture when you buy your first machine.
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zedosix
06-26-2012, 07:03 PM
yea i frequently find myself driving the skid in the yard and either
A. using it to haul out and in material to the truck or street
or
B. load 3 wheelbarrows til we're done excavating then bringing it to the street to do the same thing with base matl.

the worst thing about patios? they're in the damn back yard!!! people only see the mess and commotion and not the beautiful finished product

Your issue lies with the fact that you still use wheelbarrows, get rid of those damn things and spend some money on hydraulic ones and get rid of an employee to save you the money you just spent. You'll thank me later. :)

alldayrj
06-26-2012, 08:24 PM
Post a link to one please.
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zedosix
06-26-2012, 08:41 PM
http://www.kubota.ca/en/products.aspx?trail=&prodid=222
Also check out www.cormidi.com.

alldayrj
06-26-2012, 09:27 PM
I must admit. Thats the coolest thing ever. Must be awesome for concrete. But its hard to compare the pricetag to 3 jacksons and a few hours of payroll. Some day i will have all these toys... Some day...
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zedosix
06-26-2012, 09:33 PM
I must admit. Thats the coolest thing ever. Must be awesome for concrete. But its hard to compare the pricetag to 3 jacksons and a few hours of payroll. Some day i will have all these toys... Some day...
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Well they certainly have to earn their keep at the price they want for them! I have two and you really have to watch the maintenance on them, check oil twice a day and keep the filters clean. One I've had since 2004, the other one I purchased in 07, I bet I have 2000 hours on the older one. I even haul pallets of material from the front yard to the back on occasion. Not full, but whatever my asv 50 can lift, the cormidi will piggyback it to the backyard.

xtreem3d
06-26-2012, 09:49 PM
Where did you find the prices?

anyone try this http://www.gemplers.com/product/167956/Muck-Truck-Powered-Wheelbarrow-800-lb-Capacity?sku=167956&srccode=cii_10043468&cpncode=30-59043876-2&CID=25SEZLA

zedosix
06-26-2012, 10:00 PM
Where did you find the prices?

anyone try this http://www.gemplers.com/product/167956/Muck-Truck-Powered-Wheelbarrow-800-lb-Capacity?sku=167956&srccode=cii_10043468&cpncode=30-59043876-2&CID=25SEZLA

They are very light duty more of a residential unit. That unit is not for the serious hardscaper. But still much better than a wheelbarrow.

DVS Hardscaper
06-26-2012, 10:42 PM
Thanks for sharing Zedo. If this was my forum I would make you a moderator.

alldayrj
06-26-2012, 10:43 PM
muck truck says 6CF, same size as a wheelbarrow. plus no tracks

kubota is impressive
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2DhE-jDmLs

cormidi looks like something from bob the builder, but in a good way. like the kubota mated with a dingo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6B_OcaPtGc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZIimnItCxo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqi7bR_s2KI

xtreem3d
06-27-2012, 07:18 AM
anyone ball park the prices of them?

Duekster
06-27-2012, 07:36 AM
So what did we decide to buy?

zedosix
06-27-2012, 10:07 PM
Thanks for sharing Zedo. If this was my forum I would make you a moderator.

Thanks, I guess.:confused: