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Duekster
05-25-2012, 06:59 PM
Alright, have a 3 year old system on a 3/4 AV lot. Most of the 20 stations are Rotors, I would say 5 are sprays. We ran the stations pretty quick and just flagged the gross tilts, and the broken heads / leaks.

There has been a mixture of repairs from irrigators and home owner. Some RB, some Obits and such.
Many of the rotors are on tees with short nipples so the mowers snap the lats. We use a poly connection and offset to solve the breaks.

Poor people have bar ditches on 2 sides of the property with rotors 6" Inches off the road. They even have a Civil Defense Siren in the corner and the guy parks there were lines are located. Mrs Home Owners is a little pissy about watering a bar ditch where the delivery and service guys park.


I did pick up some RB 5004 PRS and installed the LA Nozzle on a hunch ( thank you) and a tip from others here. It was on the corner of the drive. When first set up it swung out on the drive so you could see how it laid down the water too.

Clearly she saw it, we saw it. Pretty nice coverage and less impacted by the high winds. 20 to 30 MPH today.

Between the swing pipe we made and the performance of the RB 5004 she wants to replace any item broken with the RB. This includes any alignments of existing heads, she gets it because if we are going to dig and reset a head, just upgrade it to save on labor. Then systematically replace the others.

Then we do the audit to calculate run times. I know those are good products but RB has killed me in the past.

I think also found someone to buy my Maxicom Parts today as well.

Also sold a $2800 retrofit for a track home install today on top of this gig. Those are going to be the Hunter MP and MP 40 heads.

Mike Leary
05-25-2012, 07:28 PM
Some guys have all the fun. :rolleyes:

Duekster
05-25-2012, 08:03 PM
Some guys have all the fun. :rolleyes:

It is a living. :confused:

Kiril
05-26-2012, 07:59 AM
I did pick up some RB 5004 PRS and installed the LA Nozzle on a hunch ( thank you) and a tip from others here. It was on the corner of the drive. When first set up it swung out on the drive so you could see how it laid down the water too.

Clearly she saw it, we saw it. Pretty nice coverage and less impacted by the high winds. 20 to 30 MPH today.

A low angle rotor nozzle will do better than a standard angle rotor nozzle in the wind any day of the week. Just an FYI, the 5000 ain't the only rotor on the market with low angle nozzles.

Duekster
05-26-2012, 08:09 AM
I will still be intereted in seeing how good the DU is once we get these all tweaked

Kiril
05-26-2012, 08:19 AM
I will still be intereted in seeing how good the DU is once we get these all tweaked

Compared to what .... standard angle on the same site? Your DU is only as good as the design and install, despite the characteristics of the nozzle. You may see better DU with the nozzle, but how good it "could" be is a different matter. As well you know (I hope), audits should be done in zero wind conditions, or as close as you can get to zero wind. Set some catches across the entire range of the rotor, including close in.

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-26-2012, 09:39 AM
Customers really like that LA throw from my experience. Watching your water fly away in heavy wind for a customer is pretty frustrating. Also is very different than what they usually have installed so chances are good they will want to upgrade them all. I usually talked them into upgrading one zone and showing them the difference in gpm with the prs plus the greater percentage that is staying in the yard. 5000prs is a great head. Add the LA nozzle and it becomes even better.

Duekster
05-26-2012, 09:52 AM
Yeap on the Audits, Yeap on how much better the performance looks even to the customer.

Still think the MP Rotators whill provide the ultimate design options, and DU. This is particularly true in transistion areas between zones and irregular shapes.

Look at the LA Nozzle Tree. These PR's are based on 50% Radius so the 90 degree is twice and the 360 is half the stated rates. Wonderful. I am still leaning toward MP's as being a better overall choice in my book.

Kiril
05-26-2012, 11:24 AM
Look at the LA Nozzle Tree. These PR's are based on 50% Radius so the 90 degree is twice and the 360 is half the stated rates. Wonderful.

I think you mean 50% diameter, and you don't half or double PR rates, you half or double the nozzles flow rate (gpm).

Mike Leary
05-26-2012, 11:40 AM
Am I the only guy who uses the 5000/5500 6" stainless with MPR nozzles? :waving:

Kiril
05-26-2012, 11:44 AM
Am I the only guy who uses the 5000/5500 6" stainless with MPR nozzles? :waving:

I might use a 6" 5500 if they actually made them. ;)

Mike Leary
05-26-2012, 11:58 AM
I might use a 6" 5500 if they actually made them. ;)

O.k, it's a 5" pop, and they don't make MPR nozzles for it. I was thinking about the 5000 Plus. Kill me. :hammerhead:

Duekster
05-26-2012, 12:28 PM
I think you mean 50% diameter, and you don't half or double PR rates, you half or double the nozzles flow rate (gpm).

The PR is based on 50% rotation, if you want to match the 90 to a 180 (50%) then you select 50% flow, like wise if you want to match 360 to 180 then you double the flow.

I just do not think based on the Nozzle Tree charts, you are going to get as good a Matched PR as you would with the MP's even as you switch between 1000, 2000 and 3000 to account for irregular shapes and transistion areas.

Unless, I am missing something.:confused:

Duekster
05-26-2012, 12:31 PM
Am I the only guy who uses the 5000/5500 6" stainless with MPR nozzles? :waving:

Again, Pretty sure I installed the first 5000 SAMS SS MPRS.

Not really suitable for this case. Do not forget, I have had RB black balled for the most part for the last years myself. I just used these to see what they would do based on the leaking PGP thread.

Duekster
05-26-2012, 12:45 PM
Opps, meant Arc when I said rotation

Kiril
05-26-2012, 04:46 PM
The PR is based on 50% rotation, if you want to match the 90 to a 180 (50%) then you select 50% flow, like wise if you want to match 360 to 180 then you double the flow.

The PR in the charts is based on total flow into a square defined by nozzle output, head and row spacing, so it is actually 4 - 90's (which is the same as 2 - 180's.). That PR will not change for the given nozzle at the indicated radius of the nozzle for the spacing noted. It is your responsibility to match the nozzle for the given area .... by doubling, halving, or whatever so the output is appropriate for the arc.

I just do not think based on the Nozzle Tree charts, you are going to get as good a Matched PR as you would with the MP's even as you switch between 1000, 2000 and 3000 to account for irregular shapes and transistion areas.

That is the beauty of the MPRotator .... relatively close match to PR rates across all arcs and nozzles

Duekster
05-26-2012, 05:27 PM
I agree about the MP Rotators.

I understand the part about matching the nozzles on the Single Stream. I am just saying the math does not work all that well given the options on the LA Nozzle looking at the 1, 1.5, 2 and 3 GPM

If I use the 1 GPM on the 90 arc, that will put down pretty close to what the 180 will do on the 2 GPM but the 3 GPM on the 360 does not get me there. I really need a 4 GPM unless I am missing something?

I do not see a 4 GPM on the LA Tree?

http://www.rainbird.com/documents/turf/chart_5000.pdf

Kiril
05-26-2012, 05:31 PM
You would need a 3.04 gpm nozzle to get a full circle match with the #1 at a 90 degree arc.

Mike Leary
05-26-2012, 05:43 PM
I do not see a 4 GPM on the LA Tree?

That's because they don't make them. The only way you play that game with those crappy nozzles is dedicate a full-circle zone.

Wet_Boots
05-26-2012, 05:55 PM
LA nozzles would be more popular with good marketing

vS8RVkaIM9c

Duekster
05-26-2012, 05:57 PM
Krill,

I do not see it so show me the error of my ways.

Mike, I could get the FC but they have the same Tree?


Kind of committed here. I tried them on a job with aproximately 55 Rotors, the home owner liked the LA Nozzle. I think the Pressure regulations helps a lot considering the problems of selection off the tree as it stands.

Unfortnately some of the spacing is weird, 33, 29 30 and 32 as an example. Small yard, I nix the rotors, go 100% MP Rotors.

Duekster
05-26-2012, 05:59 PM
LA nozzles would be more popular with good marketing

vS8RVkaIM9c

Saw them live in Atlanta Ga at a large toystore. Forgot the name of the store now as that was about 40 years ago. More of a Puff N Stuff fan.

Mike Leary
05-26-2012, 06:09 PM
Unfortnately some of the spacing is weird, 33, 29 30 and 32 as an example. Small yard, I nix the rotors, go 100% MP Rotors.

Head-to head,those are too far for MPs, unless you're going with center heads.
I'd even be thinking of center heads for the 5000s and use the smaller nozzles, MPR, natch. :)

Duekster
05-26-2012, 06:19 PM
Head-to head,those are too far for MPs, unless you're going with center heads.
I'd even be thinking of center heads for the 5000s and use the smaller nozzles, MPR, natch. :)

Not as if I did not think centering, aligning and such. I am working off the premis that the 30 ~32 foot stretch will be more wind resistant than the 3000 MPR. Please give me a little more credit.

My question is about the nozzle tree and yes I want to keep the PR close to 0.5 to .44 so I can blend to MP's

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-26-2012, 06:23 PM
Maybe on a rare windless day you can do a catch can test of the mp and 5000la. In the olden days when triangular spacing was in vogue little easier to get similar application rates through the whole zone.

Mike Leary
05-26-2012, 06:28 PM
Please give me a little more credit.

Maybe you explained the deal earlier. If so, I apologize. If you did not, I suggest the "psychic irrigation forum". :rolleyes:

Duekster
05-26-2012, 06:38 PM
Maybe on a rare windless day you can do a catch can test of the mp and 5000la. In the olden days when triangular spacing was in vogue little easier to get similar application rates through the whole zone.

We did discuss and right now Home Owner is into that idea. Too windy the last few days as you well know.

Home Owner does have a budget but is willing to do over time a retro as needed.

Maybe I need to check prices but seems Hunter really jacked up the price of the PRS 40s. Combine that with the cost of the MP's and the 5004 Plus PRS is a less expensive option.

I am assuming most of the heads are PGP's but I did see orbits and RB's there. She was not happy so I decided RB LA's would be a decent choice but I also wanted to see for myself the performance.

Not like I can not change up but the misting and fogging from these PGP's is crazy and she saw a $650 water bill. She would be happy with a $200 or less and I think we can do it.

Again, focusing on the current Nozzle tree. I will be frank.... I sell the MP's as expensive but I can adjusted them so much faster. My labor time off sets the cost. Rotors are a pain in the ass. Yes not too hard but think about the time involved adjusting them as well as auditing them.

In an audit, you want several passes, I can be up and gone on an MP in 1/3 of the time in both cases.

Duekster
05-26-2012, 06:51 PM
One other thing I have to consider, is there is 20 stations on this home owner site. It will be hard to cover that with twice a week schedule on a 5/8" meter on a single main. It is not like my commerical sites with looped mains and the ability to overlap.

Mike Leary
05-26-2012, 07:01 PM
20 zones, $200.00 a month in water bills? Let us know.:laugh::laugh::laugh:

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-26-2012, 07:08 PM
Choose the best product even if it adds labor time due to adjustments. Can't say this for a fact but I believe the RB5000 will last longer than the MP. To me it's just a better overall buy. I would only use the MP as a salvage product on a screwed up system. It does that very well.

Mike Leary
05-26-2012, 07:15 PM
Choose the best product even if it adds labor time due to adjustments. Can't say this for a fact but I believe the RB5000 will last longer than the MP. To me it's just a better overall buy. I would only use the MP as a salvage product on a screwed up system. It does that very well.

I agree, unless the zone is designed for MPs, which I've done many times, any other use of it is a band-aid to try to fix a failed zone. Toro Stream-Rotors, RB 5000s & Hunter I-20s remain my choice for rotors chucking beyond 18'. I use MPs on pinhead turf zones, rather than the medium-throw RB 3500s or the Hunter PG (whatever they're called these days). :dizzy:

Wet_Boots
05-26-2012, 07:18 PM
Another low-angle option is the obscure Toro TR-50XT - it has an adjustable-trajectory turret, and uses nozzles from 1.0 to 8.0 gpm

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-26-2012, 07:22 PM
How obscure is it?

Mike Leary
05-26-2012, 07:26 PM
Another low-angle option is the obscure Toro TR-50XT - it has an adjustable-trajectory turret, and uses nozzles from 1.0 to 8.0 gpm

'Bout time for you to get your own website and stop screwing up current posts that are making some sense, until you come barging in. :hammerhead: Who cares? :dizzy:

Wet_Boots
05-26-2012, 07:52 PM
the sense of a head like a TR-50XT is that it will likely spray farther than standard heads with low-angle nozzles

Mike Leary
05-26-2012, 08:03 PM
the sense of a head like a TR-50XT is that it will likely spray farther than standard heads with low-angle nozzles

Why anyone in their right mind would use a Toro product (except the Stream Rotor that Ed Hunter invented, and the companies that they've gobbled-up) is beyond my comprehension. You see those button-down types at I.A. Toro booth, talk with them about REAL issues, and you can see their little corporate beady eyes thinking, "whoa, this would be expensive to fix this.". Screw Toro, they've made a mockery out of irrigation, and I guess I should have bought stock. :hammerhead:

Wet_Boots
05-26-2012, 08:14 PM
Most of the me-too heads are gone, but they kept the Stream Rotor and the TR-50XT

Mike Leary
05-26-2012, 08:35 PM
Most of the me-too heads are gone, but they kept the Stream Rotor

What was that phoney wanna-be Stream Rotor the beancounters brought out years ago, 340? It had plastic arc disks and a "variable arc nozzle", neither worth a tinker's damn.I think they dropped it shortly after Ed Hunter's infamous "S" Stream Rotor head with the arc cone nozzles.

Wet_Boots
05-26-2012, 08:42 PM
maybe some of that stuff goes on a consumer-products list

Mike Leary
05-26-2012, 08:48 PM
maybe some of that stuff goes on a consumer-products list

Next, it will be Toro 340s and Hunter Type "S" on e-bay.:laugh:

Wet_Boots
05-26-2012, 08:55 PM
Next, it will be Toro 340s and Hunter Type "S" on e-bay.:laugh:They're there already, at least the Toro stuff. I unashamedly used eBay to get some sample quantities of their obscure rotors, like the V-1550 and the XP-300, that weren't regionally stocked.

Kiril
05-26-2012, 09:03 PM
One other thing I have to consider, is there is 20 stations on this home owner site. It will be hard to cover that with twice a week schedule on a 5/8" meter on a single main. It is not like my commerical sites with looped mains and the ability to overlap.

------------------------------------------

Mike Leary
05-26-2012, 09:04 PM
I unashamedly used eBay

Like we expected any less from you, Boots.

Wet_Boots
05-26-2012, 09:11 PM
when you find a distributor still stocking STL rotors and coarse-thread brass popup bodies, you will let us all know, right?


If the photo of low-angle PGP nozzles is intended to back a claim that they were low-angle players, don't bother. Those nozzles sucked big-time, compared to any standard head with a low-angle turret for their standard nozzles. A Super700 kicked its low-angle ass.

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=249369&stc=1&d=1338080627

Mike Leary
05-26-2012, 09:26 PM
Oh oh, Kiril and Boots agree on something?

Wet_Boots
05-26-2012, 09:33 PM
the #4 low-angle PGP nozzle was okay, but the rest of them bit the big one, and besides, they didn't have flow rates matching the regular nozzles - to their credit, about ten years too late, they redesigned them

Kiril
05-26-2012, 09:33 PM
Oh oh, Kiril and Boots agree on something?

I agree boots is stuck in the past.

Wet_Boots
05-26-2012, 09:58 PM
I agree boots is stuck in the past.the booze was better in the past :drinkup:

http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/4810/gordonsginfifth1.jpg

Sprinkus
05-26-2012, 10:00 PM
In the olden days I used to take a small screwdriver to the S700 nozzles and bust out a chunk of the small rectangular close-in watering part to get better coverage under the head.
I also remember guys using a hacksaw to cut a slot in the PGP turrets to get coverage under the head.

Wet_Boots
05-26-2012, 10:04 PM
Toro had a tech bulletin that explained they made the 700 nozzles specifically for them to not wash away seed on bare ground, so no close-in downward spray

Mike Leary
05-26-2012, 10:10 PM
I also remember guys using a hacksaw to cut a slot in the PGP turrets to get coverage under the head.

The modified "in the field" reinforced edge tells me that the dorks had no clue about head-to-head (or better in windage) coverage. What a crock. :hammerhead: Better yet, was a ball field that had failed due to low pressure, "crew" had added larger nozzzles and the systen really failed.

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-26-2012, 10:49 PM
They're there already, at least the Toro stuff. I unashamedly used eBay to get some sample quantities of their obscure rotors, like the V-1550 and the XP-300, that weren't regionally stocked.

I think regionally mocked would be more accurate.

Wet_Boots
05-26-2012, 11:25 PM
the XP-300 was a good head, reliability-wise

Duekster
05-27-2012, 09:18 AM
Maybe you explained the deal earlier. If so, I apologize. If you did not, I suggest the "psychic irrigation forum". :rolleyes:

The suggestion was not relevant to my question.

You have to assume, 4 basic ARC, 90, 180, 270, 360 and I have 4 LA nozzles. I do not see that as a great Matched PR in my book based on the MFG data. Am I missing something other than trying to clean up the install spacing and centering the heads.

Outside of the 30 foot windage issue, the better choice is the MPRotators.

Felco #2
05-27-2012, 10:28 AM
http://www.rainbird.com/landscape/products/rotors/mprNozzles.htm

Duekster
05-27-2012, 12:08 PM
http://www.rainbird.com/landscape/products/rotors/mprNozzles.htm

Thank you but where exactly is the LA option?

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-27-2012, 03:28 PM
There is no LA option with the MPR nozzles. Still if you look at the LA nozzles you won't be that far off with there selection.

Mike Leary
05-27-2012, 03:38 PM
There is no LA option with the MPR nozzles. Still if you look at the LA nozzles you won't be that far off with there selection.

True, the MPRs are high fliers, but they sure have the most even application and performance in windage I've ever seen.

Duekster
05-27-2012, 03:45 PM
So Rainbird has failed to give us a good tree for the LA Option?

I am not sure how using a 1 GPM on 90, 2 GPM on 180 and 3 GPM on a 360 is a close match unless all of my 360s are surrounded on all sides by 90s and 180's

Mike Leary
05-27-2012, 03:53 PM
unless all of my 360s are surrounded on all sides by 90s and 180's
They should be encircled by 90s and 180s. Head to head coverage, you know. :rolleyes:

Duekster
05-27-2012, 03:59 PM
They should be encircled by 90s and 180s. Head to head coverage, you know. :rolleyes:

Head to head could mean something besides encircling a 360. Did you really think about this or just want to take a stab? :hammerhead:

Mike Leary
05-27-2012, 04:02 PM
Head to head could mean something besides encircling a 360. Did you really think about this or just want to take a stab? :hammerhead:

I give.......must be the weather. :dizzy:

Wet_Boots
05-27-2012, 04:02 PM
matching 90's and 360's is not done very often, and even if you had the Toro TR-50XT with 1.5 and 3.0 and 4.5 and 6.0 nozzles, you'd have to reduce distances on the larger nozzles for an exact match.

Duekster
05-27-2012, 04:04 PM
matching 90's and 360's is not done very often, and even if you had the Toro TR-50XT with 1.5 and 3.0 and 4.5 and 6.0 nozzles, you'd have to reduce distances on the larger nozzles for an exact match.

Thank you, keep in mind this is a retro too.

Duekster
05-27-2012, 04:07 PM
I give.......must be the weather. :dizzy:

Try something basic, take a 120 by 120 box and show me how to encircle all the 360 heads with 90's and 180's in a proper design, then use the LA Tree and see how close you get to 80 DU.

I could do some things like separate the 360's and adjust run times but I am not designing, I am retrofitting.

Wet_Boots
05-27-2012, 04:17 PM
sometimes the 90's get larger nozzles and are allowed to throw further

Duekster
05-27-2012, 04:22 PM
sometimes the 90's get larger nozzles and are allowed to throw further

This is what we are using with LA Nozzles, we have 55 PSI available.

http://www.rainbird.com/documents/turf/ts_5000Plus-PRS.pdf

Mike Leary
05-27-2012, 04:48 PM
This is what we are using with LA Nozzles, we have 55 PSI available.

If the budget will stand it, use the 5500 plus w/6" stainless riser. :clapping:

Duekster
05-27-2012, 04:55 PM
If the budget will stand it, use the 5500 plus w/6" stainless riser. :clapping:

Does that allow me to encircle all the 360's with 90's and 180's on a 120 by 120 circle?

Maybe, because I can throw further but I doubt it will help with the drift, work around the trees and shrubs. Good call. :rolleyes:

Mike Leary
05-27-2012, 04:59 PM
Does that allow me to encircle all the 360's with 90's and 180's on a 120 by 120 circle?

Maybe, because I can throw further but I doubt it will help with the drift, work around the trees and shrubs. Good call. :rolleyes:

Again, I'd spend a twiddly amount on MPR nozzles when you get the low-angles so you can try them out. Sure be neat to see a simple sketch of what you're up against. :waving:

Duekster
05-27-2012, 05:18 PM
Again, I'd spend a twiddly amount on MPR nozzles when you get the low-angles so you can try them out. Sure be neat to see a simple sketch of what you're up against. :waving:

Ding Ding Ding we have a winner, MPR and LA at this time mutually exclusive with the 5000 series.

It seems the LA nozzle tree is short one GPM rating from being able to get a fair match on 90/180 and 360.

I am sure the PRS function will help with the misting issue. The LA worked very well in high winds we experianced on Friday. It is not always that windy.
But if it is not always that windy, then the MP Rotors on PRS Heads is likely a much better solution to installing a high DU system.

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-27-2012, 05:26 PM
this is how I'd lay it out with LAs using the LA tree available on a 120'x120'
Heads are spaced at 30'
Qs use 1gpm
Hs use 1.5gpm
240s use 2gpm
Fs use 3gpm

Duekster
05-27-2012, 05:39 PM
this is how I'd lay it out with LAs using the LA tree available on a 120'x120'
Heads are spaced at 30'
Qs use 1gpm
Hs use 1.5gpm
240s use 2gpm
Fs use 3gpm

That really is your only nozzle option but I wanted Mike to show me how to encircle the 360's with 180 and 90. You do get better coverage from triangular spacing but I stll say the DU is less than Ideal with this tree

Thanks.

Mike Leary
05-27-2012, 05:43 PM
At least you could have rotated the sketch! All in all, it looks o.k., providing there is no undulating slope or any barriers (trees, etc.) in the way. Something else occurred to me; Duek mentioned 50 psi, is that measured at an existing head location, or at the p.o.c.? If it's at the p.o.c., there's no need for a PRS, as the friction loss should put him where he needs to be. You all know MY ideas about pressure: "more is better." :clapping:

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-27-2012, 05:46 PM
You can use 1gpm on corners 1.5 on Hs and 3s on Fs in a square spaced arrangement and not be that far off of good DU. You will get more water in the corners but that tends to be the hottest part of the yard anyway. I was at a TTIA CEU put on by somebody at the Colorado River authority. We were talking about du and he said for whatever reason with the old style hunter pgp nozzles he had to make the quarters the same gpm as the halves in order to get his du to an acceptable level.

Duekster
05-27-2012, 05:49 PM
I am assuming you put the 240's to spray into the interior to overcome the shortages of the FC's Brilliant but would you really want to do it this way?

I will definately keep this in mind as I retro fit this site.

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-27-2012, 05:51 PM
Yes the 240s are spraying towards the center. In triangular spacing which I pretty much did all the time on my installs whether spray or rotor you use a lot of 120s and 240s

Mike Leary
05-27-2012, 05:52 PM
I sort of agree, many times, I've thrown out the 1.0 gpm nozzles on 90s because my moisture meter told me to, even though "the book" told me what was matched precip. :dizzy:

Duekster
05-27-2012, 05:53 PM
At least you could have rotated the sketch! All in all, it looks o.k., providing there is no undulating slope or any barriers (trees, etc.) in the way. Something else occurred to me; Duek mentioned 50 psi, is that measured at an existing head location, or at the p.o.c.? If it's at the p.o.c., there's no need for a PRS, as the friction loss should put him where he needs to be. You all know MY ideas about pressure: "more is better." :clapping:

I have not really done the audit yet. I am still fixing leaks. I decided to land on the PRS knowing my Static is well over 60 and perhaps higher in the late night. The next problem is there are 20 stations, my water window will be very tight.

Duekster
05-27-2012, 05:56 PM
I mean the PGP's were misting and fogging and rolling over the House. Pretty clear the pressure is high.

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-27-2012, 05:56 PM
By the way don't call anybody brilliant on this forum it gets the long knives out.

Mike Leary
05-27-2012, 06:05 PM
The next problem is there are 20 stations, my water window will be very tight.

That will be a problem, especially with the dweeb nozzles. Don't confuse yourself with triangular spacing, that went out with white bread, the difference is minimal, with a lot more waste. A clock with multiple programs will help, but a clock with ISP (Independent Station Programming) would be ideal.

Duekster
05-27-2012, 06:11 PM
By the way don't call anybody brilliant on this forum it gets the long knives out.

Seems they come as a matter of SOP anyway. However, no need to paint a target, thanks for the insight on how to work a limited nozzel tree.

I am going to center the heads but likely not switch to Triangluar spacing on this retro. Not even sure I can do so easy. The site is not a perfect square either. I was just using that to demonstrate encircle the 360's with the higher output 90's and 180s was not a given option.

I will also likely do the 1 GPM 90, 2 GPM 180 and 3 GPM FC. If I do not like the Audit, then I may go to a regular 4 GPM FC.

That would be interesting. Set up some FC's on the LA 3 GPM and SA 4 GPM and see if the loss is worth it.

Duekster
05-27-2012, 06:13 PM
That will be a problem, especially with the dweeb nozzles. Don't confuse yourself with triangular spacing, that went out with white bread, the difference is minimal, with a lot more waste. A clock with multiple programs will help, but a clock with ISP (Independent Station Programming) would be ideal.

Still limited to the meter unless there is a looped main. Not seen too often on a residential unit but it could be done. The controller is an ICC

No worry about the Triangular spacing but he did over come the limits of the tree at hand or so it seems.

Duekster
05-27-2012, 06:18 PM
whatever reason with the old style hunter pgp nozzles he had to make the quarters the same gpm as the halves in order to get his du to an acceptable level.

That would be odd since you cover twice as fast. I think I like the MProtors more and more despite the wind issue for 30's.

Mike Leary
05-27-2012, 06:20 PM
Looped mains go into the same catagory as white bread. I've started out with conventional and looped it, taking measurements all the way through, and when the main was looped, I noticed I'd gained around 10 pounds, big deal. They simply don't give you that much of an edge, in fact, I've read papers proposing a looped main can do more harm, friction loss wise, than a conventional. How many programs does an ICC have, four?

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-27-2012, 06:22 PM
Lot more waste? Explain that to me Mike. If a nozzle put out the exact same amount of water in each foot of its throw then square spacing would be desirable. However that isn't what happens. The water is applied in a bell curve with less on the beginning and ends and more in the center. Triangular spacing minimizes that better than square.

Duekster
05-27-2012, 06:25 PM
Looped mains go into the same catagory as white bread. I've started out with conventional and looped it, taking measurements all the way through, and when the main was looped, I noticed I'd gained around 10 pounds, big deal. They simply don't give you that much of an edge, in fact, I've read papers proposing a looped main can do more harm, friction loss wise, than a conventional. How many programs does an ICC have, four?

Loops can provide more flow but the limiting factor is the POC.

Even over lapping the program does not over come the POC.

Duekster
05-27-2012, 06:29 PM
http://www.rainbird.com/documents/turf/chart_5500.pdf

Mike, as an example here is your beloved 5500

Check the tree, higher PR with the same flow. In this case the lower PR of the FC rotors was boosted by switching the triangular spacing in the interior which is the concern of presented by the limited LA tree.

Mike Leary
05-27-2012, 06:32 PM
I like square spacing because I can apply water to exactly where it's needed, rather than washing down hardscape or anything else outside my coverage assignment. Duek has bigger problems than a diatribe about square/vs triangular spacing.

Duekster
05-27-2012, 06:43 PM
The biggest problem I have is seeing the beauty in Rotors at 30 to 35 foot spacings instead of MP Rotor nozzles. I bought into the idea that PRS and LA's would be better in wind as seen in our area. I just do not like the PR/ DU at first glance on paper.

The other problem is the twice a week water window. I can toss more water out.... but to what consequence to waste.

Maybe I should go to subsurface drip :laugh:

Kiril
05-27-2012, 06:56 PM
Lot more waste? Explain that to me Mike. If a nozzle put out the exact same amount of water in each foot of its throw then square spacing would be desirable. However that isn't what happens. The water is applied in a bell curve with less on the beginning and ends and more in the center. Triangular spacing minimizes that better than square.

Actually, that is exactly what RB claims with their rain curtain nozzle .... and let us not forget .....

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=216350&stc=1&d=1301344826

Duekster
05-27-2012, 07:00 PM
I need reader glasses to read that and I just bought new ones. Is there a link so I can increase the size?

Mike Leary
05-27-2012, 07:00 PM
Bigger clock, more zones. THROW that water out there. Here's a 5000 w/a beige MPR nozzle throwing about 30' @ 60 psi, burning around 5.0 gpm. We lay down 3/4 in/h., since the MPRs don't have a 3/4 nozzle, it's an educated guess. I like that close-in coverage.

Duekster
05-27-2012, 07:09 PM
Bigger clock, more zones. THROW that water out there. Here's a 5000 w/a beige MPR nozzle throwing about 30' @ 60 psi, burning around 5.0 gpm. We lay down 3/4 in/h., since the MPRs don't have a 3/4 nozzle, it's an educated guess. I like that close-in coverage.

I may need to go the MPR route and try to save face after showing off the LA nozzles. The MPR and the PRS has to be an improvement to uncontrolled pressure.

Kiril
05-27-2012, 07:20 PM
I need reader glasses to read that and I just bought new ones. Is there a link so I can increase the size?

-------------------------------

Mike Leary
05-27-2012, 07:23 PM
The MPR and the PRS has to be an improvement to uncontrolled pressure.

I've just been flat unimpressed by PRS, except in spray zones. I wish I still had the pics, but I've had Rotators, I-20s, 5000s and Stream-Rotors running at close to 80 psi @ the p.oc. Now granted, they are big zones and I had cistern pumping systems, but I'd still bet I was cooking over 60 psi at the head on all of them. This is not a time for funny pipe, I used all sch 80 solid swing joints. It's all in the design and the parameters you face. I'd rather blow it out of the ground than do the walk-through and realize my zipper was open.

Duekster
05-27-2012, 07:31 PM
Thanks Krill,

Lot's to think about. It is seems it is always about trade offs. Clearly no real advantage to going to this Rainbird product as a wholesale change.

Duekster
05-27-2012, 07:39 PM
I've just been flat unimpressed by PRS, except in spray zones. I wish I still had the pics, but I've had Rotators, I-20s, 5000s and Stream-Rotors running at close to 80 psi @ the p.oc. Now granted, they are big zones and I had cistern pumping systems, but I'd still bet I was cooking over 60 psi at the head on all of them. This is not a time for funny pipe, I used all sch 80 solid swing joints. It's all in the design and the parameters you face. I'd rather blow it out of the ground than do the walk-through and realize my zipper was open.

You sure talk a good game.

So now, I have to worry about my water window, my clients pain tolerance to reducing a $650.00 a month water bill. Instead of upgrading the heads to PRS and MPR, I can just sell them new Back flow and install a pump and cistern.

I can do this. :walking:

Mike Leary
05-27-2012, 07:41 PM
Actually, that is exactly what RB claims with their rain curtain nozzle .... and let us not forget .....

I can't make sense of charts 'cause I'm an old "what feels good under my feet is properly irrigated." kind of guy. Give us a little tutorial, sonny, I am interested, but don't understand what the final opinion is from the charts. :dizzy:

Duekster
05-27-2012, 07:44 PM
I can't make sense of charts 'cause I'm an old "what feels good under my feet is properly irrigated." kind of guy. Give us a little tutorial, sonny, I am interested, but don't understand what the final opinion is from the charts. :dizzy:

I was getting that impression. Times, they are a changing, :rolleyes:

Wet_Boots
05-27-2012, 07:48 PM
Natures keeps sticking trees into the mathematical purity of lawn sprinkler layouts.

Duekster
05-27-2012, 07:49 PM
Would now be a good time to insert the "depends" joke?

Kiril
05-27-2012, 07:53 PM
I can't make sense of charts 'cause I'm an old "what feels good under my feet is properly irrigated." kind of guy. Give us a little tutorial, sonny, I am interested, but don't understand what the final opinion is from the charts. :dizzy:

You are getting old. You don't remember the 200+ post thread on DU and SC?

The charts I posted pretty clearly show with these two sprinklers the Hunter I20 using the rectangular (square) layout is going to produce the highest water savings .... period.

Mike Leary
05-27-2012, 07:58 PM
You are getting old. You don't remember the 200+ thread on DU and SC?

Must have been on the road that day. Good to know I installed my I-20s correctly. :dizzy::waving::drinkup:

Duekster
05-27-2012, 08:08 PM
Must have been on the road that day. Good to know I installed my I-20s correctly. :dizzy::waving::drinkup:

We need proof after this thread :laugh:

Mike Leary
05-27-2012, 08:26 PM
We need proof after this thread :laugh:

Bring it on, take a road trip. The Pacific Northwest is incredible this time of year.

Duekster
05-27-2012, 08:29 PM
Bring it on, take a road trip. The Pacific Northwest is incredible this time of year.

So you do not actually have any :laugh:

Wet_Boots
05-27-2012, 08:30 PM
So much rain there - who needs sprinklers anyway?

Mike Leary
05-27-2012, 08:37 PM
So you do not actually have any :laugh:

Hey! I'm 66 years old, I get when I beg for it.

Wet_Boots
05-27-2012, 08:47 PM
If the site has high pressure, try a zone with nozzles a size larger.

Mike Leary
05-27-2012, 08:50 PM
If the site has high pressure, try a zone with nozzles a size larger.

Everyone's wet dream, that's for sure.

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-27-2012, 08:56 PM
Actually, that is exactly what RB claims with their rain curtain nozzle .... and let us not forget .....

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=216350&stc=1&d=1301344826

Interesting. At 24' the du is at its highest but what is the radius of the throw?. I'm guessing it's the same radius distance across the board but when you get a lot of overlap your du goes up as well. That makes sense. Maybe I'm not reading it correctly. Having to squint on my iPad. I'll look at it closer in a sec. Where is the source of the graphs and did it have literature with it?

Wet_Boots
05-27-2012, 08:58 PM
20 zones on a 5/8 meter would be a horrible fail in the face of drought restrictions. At least the 5000 nozzles can spread well at lower pressures.

Duekster
05-27-2012, 08:59 PM
Hey! I'm 66 years old, I get when I beg for it.

things never change

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-27-2012, 09:07 PM
I have some questions on the testing parameters. It says a constant effective radius. What is that radius and at what pressure? At different spacing different performance. Not sure that I see the hunter is clearly the best.

Now if your goal is to be above 80% du with the fewest number of heads then the hunter Appears the best for that.

Duekster
05-27-2012, 09:12 PM
20 zones on a 5/8 meter would be a horrible fail in the face of drought restrictions. At least the 5000 nozzles can spread well at lower pressures.

I have not retro yet mostly PGP's ... Focused on the misting, now I am thinking I have a window too. FWIW, Got a FIBCO 850 too. I assume 1" main and valves with 3 to 4 heads per station. :wall

Duekster
05-27-2012, 09:14 PM
Interesting. At 24' the du is at its highest but what is the radius of the throw?. I'm guessing it's the same radius distance across the board but when you get a lot of overlap your du goes up as well. That makes sense. Maybe I'm not reading it correctly. Having to squint on my iPad. I'll look at it closer in a sec. Where is the source of the graphs and did it have literature with it?

Even more confusing it is not even the heads we are discussing. :rolleyes:

Wet_Boots
05-27-2012, 09:15 PM
Try one zone with bumped-up nozzle sizes, and see what happens.

Duekster
05-27-2012, 09:17 PM
Try one zone with bumped-up nozzle sizes, and see what happens. I have to assuming the window is here to stay.

One thing for sure, I will lose the LA on the RB's and I should do the same on the majority head the beloved PGP. I need to get close to 1" per hour to stand a chance at running all stations in my window.

Mike Leary
05-27-2012, 09:19 PM
The published specs are from an aircraft hanger with perfect piping. How many of us have that luxury in the field? That's why I preferred to run my rotor zones (except on ball fields, where I knew we had big water) to no more than 25' to 30', and 30' was a stretch, especially where I had windage.

Duekster
05-27-2012, 09:21 PM
The published specs are from an aircraft hanger with perfect piping. How many of us have that luxury in the field? .

I thought you did :laugh:

Duekster
05-27-2012, 09:30 PM
Lot's to consider. Thanks all, about my bed time, going to get up early and start crunching numbers on another jobs kind of like this one but she wants to add tree watering for 27 plants, and some drip beds too.

Mike Leary
05-27-2012, 09:30 PM
I thought you did :laugh:

Oh ya, I always had the charts and figured that in my designs, but over the years, I reduced the size of the zones and reduced the head to head. That gave me the "fudge factor" that no book will teach.Not planning for psi/gpm and windage is where I've seen all medium-throw rotors zones fail.

Duekster
05-27-2012, 09:34 PM
Oh ya, I always had the charts and figured that in my designs, but over the years, I reduced the size of the zones and reduced the head to head. That gave me the "fudge factor" that no book will teach. :nono:
adjusting for exposure helps too. :rolleyes:

Mike Leary
05-27-2012, 09:41 PM
adjusting for exposure helps too. :rolleyes:

That's where zoning and a sexy (oops, another slur) clock can make it. Tradionally,we sprinkler guys do not look up when doing the walk-through to see shade/sun exposure and factor that in to the zone layout. When it's installed, and no attenion was paid, you're screwed.

Duekster
05-27-2012, 09:45 PM
That's where zoning and a sexy (oops, another slur) clock can make it. Tradionally,we sprinkler guys do not look up when doing the walk-through to see shade/sun exposure and factor that in to the zone layout. When it's installed, and no attenion was paid, you're screwed.

Exposure and Kc can change as the landscape matures too.

Mike Leary
05-27-2012, 10:20 PM
Exposure and Kc can change as the landscape matures too.
Yup, and unless you've got spare wire and valve stub-outs + a larger clock, you're still going to look like a horses' ass. You gotta plan for growth, and convince the client that you know what you're up to.

Sprinkus
05-27-2012, 10:22 PM
Yup, and unless you've got spare wire and valve stub-outs + a larger clock, you're still going to look like a horses' ass. You gotta plan for growth, and convince the client that you know what you're up to.

Sounds like a good reason to go with a 2-wire system. Some landscapes continuously evolve, especially when there is a hungry landscaper to sell the changes.

Mike Leary
05-27-2012, 10:25 PM
Sounds like a good reason to go with a 2-wire system. Some landscapes continuously evolve, especially when there is a hungry landscaper to sell the changes.

Were I still installing, I'd do two-wire, though the remote deal confuses me.

Kiril
05-28-2012, 08:36 AM
I have some questions on the testing parameters. It says a constant effective radius. What is that radius and at what pressure? At different spacing different performance. Not sure that I see the hunter is clearly the best.

Now if your goal is to be above 80% du with the fewest number of heads then the hunter Appears the best for that.

Your comment on this demonstration and chart when I posted it.

Kiril I'm agreeing that across the board the !20 used in a rectangular design will produce the best results.

The ultimate would be spacing 35' throw heads 25' apart according to the chart.

At head to head spacing based on throw the RB in triangular would be the best.

Do you see it that way as well?


Hunter I20 operating parameters for the demo.

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=216335&stc=1&d=1301327392

Compared that to 5000 with RC nozzle.

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=216336&stc=1&d=1301327402

Don't be fooled by the chart of the PR over the radius, the y-axis scale is different for the two.

Wet_Boots
05-28-2012, 09:08 AM
Funny how close-in watering is a big selling point, while the CIT data shows us that it's more like close-in over-watering, even with a lowly Hunter nozzle

Duekster
05-28-2012, 09:21 AM
Funny how close-in watering is a big selling point, while the CIT data shows us that it's more like close-in over-watering, even with a lowly Hunter nozzle

Suppose it depends on how much you stretch your spacing.

Wet_Boots
05-28-2012, 09:32 AM
Those are single-sprinkler charts - spacing has nothing to do with it

Kiril
05-28-2012, 09:44 AM
Exposure and Kc can change as the landscape matures too.

Technically speaking, Kc (or more appropriately KL for landscapes) changes throughout the growing season. KL will also change as a landscape matures from plant out.

Duekster
05-28-2012, 09:46 AM
Those are single-sprinkler charts - spacing has nothing to do with it

Charts show a relatively flat PR except close in which is high and toward the end of the throw which is low. It does support that to get an even DU proper spacing is required. The high close in helps off set the low perimeter PR.

If you could take a mirror image and overlap it would show that clearly.

Wet_Boots
05-28-2012, 09:54 AM
The idea that the head spacing is to be a function of single-head inconsistency is a non-starter.

It just happens to be a fact that just about everyone overvalues next-to-head watering, since just about every head with adequate pressure will water more heavily right next to the head. it is my belief that people look at a photo of a rotor's spray pattern, and want it to show even watering, while forgetting that it is a rotor, and that the watering they see in a snapshot is actually spread over areas that differ greatly.

Kiril
05-28-2012, 09:56 AM
Charts show a relatively flat PR except close in which is high and toward the end of the throw which is low. It does support that to get an even DU proper spacing is required. The high close in helps off set the low perimeter PR.

Also note the Hunter I20 is vastly superior in that department.

Duekster
05-28-2012, 10:31 AM
Also note the Hunter I20 is vastly superior in that department.

It does appear that way but it would be nice to see the overlap.

Kiril
05-28-2012, 10:54 AM
It does appear that way but it would be nice to see the overlap.

It doesn't just appear that way ..... do the math.

Duekster
05-28-2012, 10:59 AM
It doesn't just appear that way ..... do the math.

I would rather have you do it for me. :laugh:

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-28-2012, 11:26 AM
Take the single head performance in the chart above and using that in the spacing chart prior one could adapt to make the heads fairly equal in performance.
So on the RB 5000 we have excess watering in the first 3-4' then fairly level before a drop off at the last 3-4' with a total throw of 43' so at 46' spacing the RB would have the best du by my quick analysis. Now to look at the previous chart to see if I'm correct.

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-28-2012, 11:30 AM
And that is not the case.....

It appears that RB Focused on the du per head whereas hunter focused on the du on multiple heads working together.

Those are 9 year old tests. Did RB even have the MPR nozzles out then?

Duekster
05-28-2012, 11:33 AM
And that is not the case.....

It appears that RB Focused on the du per head whereas hunter focused on the du on multiple heads working together.

It is not the case you are correct?

Wet_Boots
05-28-2012, 11:57 AM
Is there a chart for the Maxipaw?

Duekster
05-28-2012, 12:01 PM
It is not the case you are correct?

Thanks for the update.

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-28-2012, 02:17 PM
Well I searched to see if there is anything more current and didn't find anything. Does CIS even do anything any more? They've had the same studies on that site for a long time. My guess is that a new study based on the current nozzles would show very little difference between Hunter and Rainbird.

Duekster
05-28-2012, 02:18 PM
I wonder where software republic gets their info to show DU modeling of a design?

Mike Leary
05-28-2012, 05:32 PM
Sorry. I had to go on a site today, anyone make any command decisions while I was gone?:dizzy:

Wet_Boots
05-28-2012, 05:37 PM
We pooled our beer money and are buying up the remains of Imperial, Safe-T-Lawn, and a company to be named later, to form a new irrigation empire.

Mike Leary
05-28-2012, 05:45 PM
We pooled our beer money and are buying up the remains of Imperial, Safe-T-Lawn, and a company to be named later, to form a new irrigation empire.

Sorry I missed the offering, but I've got six 19.5 Goodyear tires to buy.:cry:

Wet_Boots
05-28-2012, 06:28 PM
That's okay, you can get in on the corporate shell subsidiary that makes a knock-off of any out-of-production head not already acquired, plus, the famous Rain Brain controller

Mike Leary
05-28-2012, 06:36 PM
That's okay, you can get in on the corporate shell subsidiary that makes a knock-off of any out-of-production head not already acquired, plus, the famous Rain Brain controller

How did you find that pic, Boots? Mom and I tried to hide Kiril's high school year book pic.