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Duekster
05-28-2012, 12:25 PM
So we have discussed that many times Rotors and MProtors can have similar PR.
If a homeowner changed the landscape impacting one station and only one rotor is now out of place. Would you re-nozzle if needed and then add some MP's or rework the whole station but then you have the over lap concern / transition.

I suppose I should go start a sketch now :laugh:

CAPT Stream Rotar
05-28-2012, 12:30 PM
If you have the pressure and flow try the re-nozzle first if necessary add the mp's where needed....

If you can accomplish good watering with minimal changes I always so go for it....Even the chance of that is worth the risk.

But in DFW im sure that you see dry spots faster and more frequently than we do up here..

jvanvliet
05-28-2012, 12:53 PM
I'd form a committee to discus it and make recommendations. :p

You have to train the HO to consult you before making any landscaping changes.:)

Wet_Boots
05-28-2012, 01:03 PM
I did an addition by way of changing every spray head in one zone to a Rotator, which freed up flow capacity to let me add/move heads to cover the new territory. Smart for a system that was maxed out in both controller and individual zone flows.

Duekster
05-28-2012, 01:04 PM
I'd form a committee to discus it and make recommendations. :p

You have to train the HO to consult you before making any landscaping changes.:)

Definately have to document this move clearly very.

Duekster
05-28-2012, 01:07 PM
I did an addition by way of changing every spray head in one zone to a Rotator, which freed up flow capacity to let me add/move heads to cover the new territory. Smart for a system that was maxed out in both controller and individual zone flows.



I often try to do that very often. This is a little different cause I would not save much water, just a better fit because the retaining wall and bed was added. The rotor is blasting the roses. One reason is adding a station triggers the need to bring the POC up to code. :confused:

jvanvliet
05-28-2012, 08:00 PM
I did an addition by way of changing every spray head in one zone to a Rotator, which freed up flow capacity to let me add/move heads to cover the new territory. Smart for a system that was maxed out in both controller and individual zone flows.

Wait, I want to understand this; every mist head to one rotator? How many mist heads? And how could it free up flow capacity and maintain adequate percipitation?

I'm not busting bawls here, I want to understand. People try that crap down here all the time, they believe that switching to rotators is more efficient, but don't realize they only have like 40 - 45 PSI static. Flow or not, 45 static is not going to be enough to lift all the heads and procuce the desired throw.

Wet_Boots
05-28-2012, 08:21 PM
High static pressure - basement water meter in a home not close to the street - reducing flow is key to improving zone pressure - every spray nozzle gets replaced by a Rotator - pressure nearly doubles in the zone, and that's with the coverage extended to the new lawn area.

greendoctor
05-28-2012, 08:27 PM
What is the lateral size and available volume? The worst systems I have seen were taken from a 1/2" POC, 3/4" valves and 1/2" or 3/'4 laterals with a 45 PSI static pressure. Nothing will really fix that because available volume is only around 4GPM. Flow is useless when the laterals and valves cause further pressure loss. The rotary heads really want 40 PSI at each head to work properly. 25 PSI is the absolute minimum.

greendoctor
05-28-2012, 08:32 PM
High static pressure - basement water meter in a home not close to the street - reducing flow is key to improving zone pressure - every spray nozzle gets replaced by a Rotator - pressure nearly doubles in the zone, and that's with the coverage extended to the new lawn area.

I have seen that happen and frequently take advantage of that. The average water meter on residential properties is only 5/8" Static pressure is 75-80 PSI. However maximum safe gallonage through the meter is no more than 15 GPM. It is very common for systems here to be designed to draw 30GPM. Pressure at each spray head is no more than 15 PSI. Cutting the flow down to 10 GPM with a rotary nozzle greatly improves system performance and often saves the lawn.

greendoctor
05-28-2012, 08:44 PM
So we have discussed that many times Rotors and MProtors can have similar PR.
If a homeowner changed the landscape impacting one station and only one rotor is now out of place. Would you re-nozzle if needed and then add some MP's or rework the whole station but then you have the over lap concern / transition.

I suppose I should go start a sketch now :laugh:

I have done it. However, I make sure I have an estimate of the precipitation rate. MP Rotators have a precipitation rate of about 0.4" per hour, depending on spacing. A rotor with a big nozzle can put down way more. Even if you do not get it exactly right, a rotary nozzle is less of a mismatch than a spray nozzle putting down almost 2" per hour when combined with a rotor zone.

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-29-2012, 12:28 AM
If kirils charts showed you anything they showed you that du is based on all heads being the same. Start mixing heads and they may all have the same radius but the distribution will vary.

Duekster
05-29-2012, 05:21 AM
I know mixing rotors and sprays as well as brands is bad business. If I required the same radius then I would not be even considering mixing. I am trying to work within what I have available.

The lady installed a 20 X 20 flower bed between two PGP Rotors. The rotors knock the blooms off her roses. The back yard is long with a significant elevation drop.

The installer ran straight down the hill, along the fence lines and one station right down the middle. When you shut off the system, the rotor on the bottom of the hill drains the line and water streams out almost 8 feet. I imagine very poor hydraulic design in straight lines from the vavle to the end run. :dizzy:

The rotors are spaced pretty well but they are not covering at all. Very clearly in the turf we are seeing crop circles.


There already is a transition between the Hunter sprays near the house and Hunter rotors albeit on different stations but in the same zone.

The PR of the RB 5000 is a lot closer to the MPs so it was a thought.

I worked on the drawing some yesterday. It will be interesting to see what rain cad says on the DU.

I have three retrofits going at almost the same time. One is pretty easy and a small yard. I will pull the hand full of rotors in the back yard and go straight MP1000 and 2000 and PRS 40 -6.

The other two require a little planning and will be done in phases.

Duekster
05-29-2012, 05:42 AM
I have 65 Static during the day.

5/8" Meter

Fibco 850 3/4"

The valves are 1" everyone installs 1" around here cause they cost less.

There seems to be a fair amount of 3/4" used at the POC but I am hoping somewhere they went to 1" soon. That is pretty much SOP in our area even for the track builds.

We checked flow and the 8 stations * 4 spray and 4 Rotor are between 11 and 14 GPM.

I did a pedo nozzle check on on rotor at the top of the hill and only saw 25 PSI so that is a concern in light of the fact the rotors do not appear to be throwing but 29 to 32 feet on a 35 foot spacing. It was very windy last week but you can see dry spots in the turf or crop circles.

Even if I do try to re-nozzle, I am stuck with the straight line runs down the hill and the flower bed creating a transition. She wants drip installed in a front flower bed and this one in the rear. I have enough flow in one of spray stations to convert it . It already services the front bed. I can run some line to the back yard and convert that bed to drip as well. No concern there as both are full sun.

She also planted some 27 trees in the back yard and wants drip installed. I have not even gotten to how to do that yet. I already told her that may require an additional zone which triggers upgrading the POC because of Texas Code. I am trying to find away around it but only if it works and makes sense.

Thanks for the input guys :drinkup:

CAPT Stream Rotar
05-29-2012, 07:13 AM
put the drip on one of those rotor zones?



:)

Duekster
05-29-2012, 07:36 AM
put the drip on one of those rotor zones?



:)

I knew I could count on the Lawnsite faithful! :laugh:

DanaMac
05-29-2012, 08:18 AM
The installer ran straight down the hill, along the fence lines and one station right down the middle. When you shut off the system, the rotor on the bottom of the hill drains the line and water streams out almost 8 feet. I imagine very poor hydraulic design in straight lines from the vavle to the end run. :dizzy

Are you going to change out check valved heads to fix this?

Kiril
05-29-2012, 09:11 AM
She also planted some 27 trees in the back yard and wants drip installed. I have not even gotten to how to do that yet. I already told her that may require an additional zone which triggers upgrading the POC because of Texas Code. I am trying to find away around it but only if it works and makes sense.

Your best bet without adding a new zone is to combine the trees with the roses, assuming they are in the same area and you have the necessary flow to pull it off. That zone is the only one you have named thus far that comes anywhere close to the interval you would need to water the trees.

CAPT Stream Rotar
05-29-2012, 10:14 AM
That's a tough spot
Poor coverage limited pressure very bad spacing
Will mp rotors be enough for your dry heat?

Sounds to me that another valve is going to be the best way to go about it..

I always wanted this but do you think an mp rotar installed close to those rotory heads would be able to compensate for the poor spacing?
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Mike Leary
05-29-2012, 11:45 AM
I've used the MP as a "fill-in" head many times when I was screwed by poor design or tight curves and they worked, sorta. Short of a fresh design/new zone(s) there's not much one can do.

muddywater
05-29-2012, 09:52 PM
I mix mps with rotors. I use them mainly to catch a nook that rotors will not reach efficiently and i have had great results. I use mps on almost every job... I keep finding a need for a 20-25' spray, why dont they make van for this radius?

Mike Leary
05-29-2012, 10:11 PM
I keep finding a need for a 20-25' spray, why dont they make van for this radius?

It's a tough area to cover, RB 3500 rotor would be my small-throw choice.

CAPT Stream Rotar
05-30-2012, 06:32 PM
It's a tough area to cover, RB 3500 rotor would be my small-throw choice.


IMHO a great mini rotor.

I wish my supervisor would start seeing them in a different light..

He is just against small rotors since the PGM's/pgj's..

I don't blame him but, nothing is worse than dogging down 4-5 pgp's with killer pressure..

Mike Leary
05-30-2012, 06:46 PM
IMHO a great mini rotor.

I wish my supervisor would start seeing them in a different light..

He is just against small rotors since the PGM's/pgj's..

I don't blame him but, nothing is worse than dogging down 4-5 pgp's with killer pressure..

A lot of guys got burned by Hunter's mini heads, including me. Dogging down a PGP is widespread, and stupid. :hammerhead:

jvanvliet
05-30-2012, 06:50 PM
A lot of guys got burned by Hunter's mini heads, including me. Dogging down a PGP is widespread, and stupid. :hammerhead:

oh oh...:o

CAPT Stream Rotar
05-30-2012, 06:58 PM
I totally agree mike..Nothing worse IMHO..


JUST USE A SMALL ROTOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Duekster
05-30-2012, 07:25 PM
IMHO a great mini rotor.

I wish my supervisor would start seeing them in a different light..

He is just against small rotors since the PGM's/pgj's..

I don't blame him but, nothing is worse than dogging down 4-5 pgp's with killer pressure..

Hunter bought the MP Rotor series from Walla Walla cause they could see the writing on the wall. They instantly raised prices too, particularly on the MP 3000's untill Rainbird got their &^*% back on the market then they came back down some.

muddywater
05-30-2012, 07:44 PM
Hunter bought the MP Rotor series from Walla Walla cause they could see the writing on the wall. They instantly raised prices too, particularly on the MP 3000's untill Rainbird got their &^*% back on the market then they came back down some.

Yeah its hard to believe a 5000 rotor is about the same price as an mp rotator.

Duekster
05-30-2012, 07:50 PM
Yeah its hard to believe a 5000 rotor is about the same price as an mp rotator.

You match the PRS 40 Pro-Spray which now has the CV with the MP, Then look at the 5004, PL with the Check and Pressure it is cheaper. I would rather adjust the MP for sure. Fast and easy.

There are trade offs, but the DU will be better with the MP and it is like looking at a camp fire for the clients.

muddywater
05-30-2012, 09:18 PM
There are trade offs, but the DU will be better with the MP and it is like looking at a camp fire for the clients.

Yeah i had a client today ask for more twirly sprinklers because they look so cute.

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-30-2012, 09:25 PM
Not sure I'm sold on this du is better with mps. Maybe in a gymnasium but toss in 5mph wind and then measure.

jvanvliet
05-31-2012, 07:38 PM
OK, stupid question, why not just use the PGJ's? Much easier to match the percipitation. Of course the trade off is the PGJ's are CRAP in the long run, but a good short term solution.

I don't think I'd mix PGP's and MPR's if I can avoid it.

Duekster
05-31-2012, 07:48 PM
OK, stupid question, why not just use the PGJ's? Much easier to match the percipitation. Of course the trade off is the PGJ's are CRAP in the long run, but a good short term solution.

I don't think I'd mix PGP's and MPR's if I can avoid it.

The reason is I have a 9 foot wide section to cover after the install of a flower bed and small retaining wall. There is now a rotor there that has to go and the installer stretched the system flow.

You think the PGJ's will work better on transition areas?

Mike Leary
05-31-2012, 07:52 PM
The RB 3500 is the best of the crappy short-range rotors. Geez, if I had to do a little pinhead again, I'd use 1806 heads w/ W*M brass nozzles. The areas between 12' and 18' have always been a problem for me, and I've tried everything.:dizzy:

jvanvliet
06-01-2012, 08:26 AM
The reason is I have a 9 foot wide section to cover after the install of a flower bed and small retaining wall. There is now a rotor there that has to go and the installer stretched the system flow.

You think the PGJ's will work better on transition areas?

Perhaps, probably your best bad choice. It's hard for me to say because I can't see the area you are dealing with.

I believe either the PGJ or RB 3500 will suit your need better than the MPR's, (PGJ's are Hunter like the rest of the system, but they aren't very durable, although they are very cheap. I don't have experience with the RB 3500... yet, but defer to Mike's expertise on this).

You'll still have to contend with some over spray, but you need to decide what is tolerable, (or how far you want to throttle them back :rolleyes:). I think it'll be easier to match precipitation rates with the PGP's with either or.

DanaMac
06-01-2012, 08:35 AM
I absolutely hate all the mini rotors. They all fail way prematurely, compared to regular sized rotors. Hunter PGM, was the worst. RB 3500 is next in line. Hunter PGJ is a little better, but not much. And, AND, they cost more than a regular sized rotor. They are all crap in my opinion. That PGM was the worst. And those stupid orbit mini rotor with huge nozzles preset in them, Pfffft. Leave em in the store.

Mike Leary
06-01-2012, 11:12 AM
I don't have experience with the RB 3500... yet, but defer to Mike's expertise on this).

The 3500 series is the LEAST crappy of the mini rotors, I've got some pinhead zones with them that have had zero problems. Depending on the width, I've also used MPs to good advantage. When they get down to "micro pinheads", good old brass nozzeled spray heads get 'er done. :clapping:

jvanvliet
06-01-2012, 05:46 PM
The 3500 series is the LEAST crappy of the mini rotors, I've got some pinhead zones with them that have had zero problems. Depending on the width, I've also used MPs to good advantage. When they get down to "micro pinheads", good old brass nozzeled spray heads get 'er done. :clapping:

No arguments here; :drinkup: