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golfgame
05-29-2012, 10:37 AM
Using a ESP-SMT controller. Having two zones that are rotors. Set for .60 in p.hr, .45 effective rate which I assume is to allow for the grade slope. I felt the cycle was too long so I adjusted it using a -20% adjustment.

Having done that the adjustment is being taken off of the second portion of the cycle after a rest period. The first portion runs for about 25-30 min I would guess, it then stops to soak in. When the second portion starts it is on for a very short time.

Is there a way to divide the total cycle time into two equal portions?

:)

CAPT Stream Rotar
05-29-2012, 11:07 AM
Reduce runtime and have 2 start times?

Not sure what your asking
Posted via Mobile Device

golfgame
05-29-2012, 12:06 PM
The normal programmed settings based on the grade and desired of inches per hour are broken into two cycles by the computer, cycle, soak, cycle. From my perspective I thought that was more water than required.

I attempted to change that by going to the section to fine tune the settings. I told the unit to reduce the cycle time by 20% I believe.

The unit did that OK, the first cycle seems to be the normal length but the second cycle after the soak period is very short.

I am asking is there a way to make both cycles close to being equal?

Would I be tetter off not using the fine tune a setting and reducing the overall water time (inches per hr)?

Mike Leary
05-29-2012, 12:32 PM
Can you assign the same zones to separate programs on that clock? That way you could use staggered start times to avoid runoff.

golfgame
05-29-2012, 05:32 PM
Don't know, will check the manual. If so do you think that would negate the cutomatic control of the unit?

Mike Leary
05-29-2012, 06:02 PM
cutomatic control

I had no idea Ron Popeil and Ronco were involved in irrigation controllers. :dizzy:

bcg
05-29-2012, 07:43 PM
Quit trying to outsmart the controller, it doesn't need to run 2 equal amounts of time to give a proper cycle/soak. Once you've gotten this controller setup with the correct zone information, the less you try to control it the better it does. When you start trying to make it work the way you want it to, it will just result in over watering.

Mike - I know you haven't seen an SMT in person but you don't setup "programs" in the traditional sense on it. Trying to program it or make it work like a traditional controller really isn't something you can do and if you did go through all the effort to get close to that, you'd be better off just putting an ESP-4M faceplate on it.

golfgame
05-29-2012, 07:50 PM
BCG,

In your view what are the 1 or 2 most critical decisions to be made in the setup of the various zones?

Mike Leary
05-29-2012, 08:13 PM
Mike - I know you haven't seen an SMT in person but you don't setup "programs" in the traditional sense on it. Trying to program it or make it work like a traditional controller really isn't something you can do and if you did go through all the effort to get close to that, you'd be better off just putting an ESP-4M faceplate on it.

I'd rather figured that, geez, I sure feel "old and in the way". Wait a minute, I am. :)

Wet_Boots
05-29-2012, 09:16 PM
BCG,

In your view what are the 1 or 2 most critical decisions to be made in the setup of the various zones?Sunspots :p

Kiril
05-29-2012, 09:53 PM
Using a ESP-SMT controller. Having two zones that are rotors. Set for .60 in p.hr, .45 effective rate which I assume is to allow for the grade slope. I felt the cycle was too long so I adjusted it using a -20% adjustment.

Having done that the adjustment is being taken off of the second portion of the cycle after a rest period. The first portion runs for about 25-30 min I would guess, it then stops to soak in. When the second portion starts it is on for a very short time.

Is there a way to divide the total cycle time into two equal portions?

:)

If you don't like the way the unit handles the reduction, then adjust the runtime some other way. The most likely reason it is over watering is because you have it setup wrong.

Mike Leary
05-29-2012, 10:08 PM
If you don't like the way the unit handles the reduction, then adjust the runtime some other way. The most likely reason it is over watering is because you have it setup wrong.

I know the W*M SL clock does not permit same zones on different programs.Seems strange.:dizzy:

muddywater
05-29-2012, 10:56 PM
What about increasing shade percentage? Or changing root status? Would that reduce run time equally?

Best bet is to call rainbird. Their 800 number has helped me out of a few jams and they would understand how the controller "thinks".

irritation
05-29-2012, 11:15 PM
What about increasing shade percentage? Or changing root status? Would that reduce run time equally?

Every smart controller I've dealt with took too much time to dial in. Just when you think you have it, it goes out. They are worthless until the technology gets better.

Mike Leary
05-29-2012, 11:20 PM
If you guys are going to screw with smart clocks, I'd suggest a stool at the right height, so as to "adjust" them. Frankly, I'm not impressed with these clocks.

muddywater
05-30-2012, 06:44 AM
If you guys are going to screw with smart clocks, I'd suggest a stool at the right height, so as to "adjust" them. Frankly, I'm not impressed with these clocks.

How many have you installed?

muddywater
05-30-2012, 06:48 AM
Every smart controller I've dealt with took too much time to dial in. Just when you think you have it, it goes out. They are worthless until the technology gets better.

I think they have their place. It just takes experience to get them dialed in. People that install hundreds of these are going to be able to get it dialed in quicker.

I installed one for a guy that was single and in the air force. He can be deployed and the clock will automatically make adjustments and when winter comes it will know when to shut down.

I think the Hunter solar sync are complete junk though.

jvanvliet
05-30-2012, 07:48 AM
I think they have their place. It just takes experience to get them dialed in. People that install hundreds of these are going to be able to get it dialed in quicker.

I installed one for a guy that was single and in the air force. He can be deployed and the clock will automatically make adjustments and when winter comes it will know when to shut down.

I think the Hunter solar sync are complete junk though.

We have 14 of those in operation; after some minor tweaking they are doing fine after one year. Only problem we had was a sensor failure.

bcg
05-30-2012, 08:27 AM
BCG,

In your view what are the 1 or 2 most critical decisions to be made in the setup of the various zones?

It's important to have the correct data (precip rate, soil type, root depth, plant type and values, etc.) and you need to know just where to lie to it. By default this controller is only going to allow about 50% depletion but in reality, a lot of plants can be pushed further. I push mine to 70% depletion by fibbing about the root zone a little. There are other ways to do it but you need to understand how to do the math it's doing to be able to understand what effect the changes you're going to make are going to have.

txirrigation
05-30-2012, 09:25 AM
I think they have their place. It just takes experience to get them dialed in. People that install hundreds of these are going to be able to get it dialed in quicker.

I installed one for a guy that was single and in the air force. He can be deployed and the clock will automatically make adjustments and when winter comes it will know when to shut down.

I think the Hunter solar sync are complete junk though.

We have a lot SMT's in now, and have have had call backs on about 60% (some multiple call backs). They are a great controller if you have a professional programming and monitoring the controller/watering needs. I believe it is easy to set up, but I also think finding broken wires, replacing a valve, etc. is easy; and most H/O's think it is rocket science. That being said, most H/O's have a lot of problems trying to adjust the controller, even after being taught face to face. Fact is, they do not listen during the walk through, and then are helpless a week later when they think something needs more water.

The Solar Sync is not a perfect solution, but it brings in the ease of use of the Pro-C. You could argue that if the H/O is going to be able to change the settings to get it dialed in right, they are going to save more water. We monitor a lot of systems with Pro-C's and we installed solar syncs on them, all are working well and saving quite a bit of water.

Kiril
05-30-2012, 09:40 AM
It's important to have the correct data (precip rate, soil type, root depth, plant type and values, etc.) and you need to know just where to lie to it. By default this controller is only going to allow about 50% depletion but in reality, a lot of plants can be pushed further. I push mine to 70% depletion by fibbing about the root zone a little. There are other ways to do it but you need to understand how to do the math it's doing to be able to understand what effect the changes you're going to make are going to have.

The other ways to do it would be to determine the correct crop/landscape coefficient and system performance variables (i.e. audit) ..... AKA collect and use accurate data. Also IMO if you aren't using the custom settings for every possible feature then you aren't programming the controller right.

Kiril
05-30-2012, 09:47 AM
We have a lot SMT's in now, and have have had call backs on about 60% (some multiple call backs). They are a great controller if you have a professional programming and monitoring the controller/watering needs. I believe it is easy to set up, but I also think finding broken wires, replacing a valve, etc. is easy; and most H/O's think it is rocket science. That being said, most H/O's have a lot of problems trying to adjust the controller, even after being taught face to face. Fact is, they do not listen during the walk through, and then are helpless a week later when they think something needs more water.

How is this any different than a standard controller? Most HO's and "professionals" can't program a standard controller correctly. Fact of the matter is, irrigation management is something that should be handled by qualified professionals. It is not like fixing a broken pipe or sprinkler.

The Solar Sync is not a perfect solution, but it brings in the ease of use of the Pro-C. You could argue that if the H/O is going to be able to change the settings to get it dialed in right, they are going to save more water. We monitor a lot of systems with Pro-C's and we installed solar syncs on them, all are working well and saving quite a bit of water.

The automatic button pusher. How much water can one save by automatically adjusting the season % with a controller that is programmed incorrectly?

FIMCO-MEISTER
05-30-2012, 10:06 AM
The reality is that there are millions of homes out there and every one can't be managed by an expert irrigation professional. Combine that with the cities giving rebates for smart controllers which gets the consumers attention. My approach to an unmanaged irrigation system would be to set it up for the most efficient July watering possible. Use the seasonal adjust and add a r/f sensor with at least a 2 day rain delay feature. Teach the customer how to use the on/off feature. Try to get them on at least a twice a year maintenance contract. ESP Modular would be my controller of choice.

bcg
05-30-2012, 06:54 PM
The other ways to do it would be to determine the correct crop/landscape coefficient and system performance variables (i.e. audit) ..... AKA collect and use accurate data. Also IMO if you aren't using the custom settings for every possible feature then you aren't programming the controller right.

I said it needed correct data, didn't I? The problem is that if you give it 100% correct data, it's only going to allow 50% depletion. I want 70% depletion so I have to lie to it.

muddywater
05-30-2012, 08:36 PM
How is this any different than a standard controller? Most HO's and "professionals" can't program a standard controller correctly. Fact of the matter is, irrigation management is something that should be handled by qualified professionals. It is not like fixing a broken pipe or sprinkler.



The automatic button pusher. How much water can one save by automatically adjusting the season % with a controller that is programmed incorrectly?

I agree. If the smart clock is set up right then, the clock will compensate when there is no rain and keep the dry spots out, and when we get rain it keeps the clock from over watering and producing fungus.

Pretty damn good clock for how inexpensive it is.

muddywater
05-30-2012, 08:41 PM
We have 14 of those in operation; after some minor tweaking they are doing fine after one year. Only problem we had was a sensor failure.

I just dont like how you have to put in a code to set the variables instead of choosing from language like "shade" or "root depth" etc.

I also don't like how it doesnt have a reading telling you it is synced with rain sensor. And the sensor doesn't measure rain actual rain fall.

Kiril
05-30-2012, 09:24 PM
I said it needed correct data, didn't I? The problem is that if you give it 100% correct data, it's only going to allow 50% depletion. I want 70% depletion so I have to lie to it.

The MAD is determined by the soil type and they are not all 50%. I do however agree that the MAD should be a user adjustable.

Sprinkus
05-30-2012, 11:22 PM
The MAD is determined by the soil type and they are not all 50%. I do however agree that the MAD should be a user adjustable.

How true. I've had to go through the process of tweaking parameters just to get around a non adjustable MAD and it is a PIA.

Kiril
05-31-2012, 09:45 AM
How true. I've had to go through the process of tweaking parameters just to get around a non adjustable MAD and it is a PIA.

Accurate determination of the root zone depth will more likely than not negate the fact you can't adjust the MAD, although it still irritates me that I can't. Most plants will start to show signs of water deficit before the total root zone hits the default MAD, assuming you have picked the right soil and the sites soil is somewhere close to the reference soil values (AWHC) they use. If that doesn't work, then your next (or perhaps the first) problem is likely an improper crop/landscape coefficient.

Duekster
05-31-2012, 10:29 AM
In the advanced settings you can adjust the min max soak cycle times.
Rather than adust MAD you can tweak custom plant Kc and rootdepth. Provided others parameters are correct.

I have no personal experiance with these units. I too would expect the Soak Cycle to be evenly split but then again in some cases you are better off applying as much as you can to get the water past the plant top growth and to the soil. Having said that, I think 1/4 inch is kind of a minimum on most turf.