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EverflowIrrigation
06-05-2012, 01:36 AM
I am new here, but have enjoyed reading many of the threads. I have had some trouble with Rain bird DVF's this past winter. I install 20-35 new systems a year in addition to servicing 300 systems/ yr. This past winter from Oct-March we installed roughly 80 zones on new systems. all 1" DVF's. My service tech's have had to replace over 30 of those valves. I am around 40-50 man hours, fuel and slip fixes, a dead specimen tree and other misc parts into at this point. I have been using DVF's on my residential systems for the last 6 years. I have found them to be inexpensive yet very reliable. when we started up our systems this year we found 6 the first week, I though ok no big deal let's just get the valves warrantied. By the time we finished our start-ups of newly installed systems we were pushing 25. Over the last few weeks I have had some unhappy customers calling with flooded yards. The valves all split on the inlet side of the valve, in the same place. We turned in the valves to our supplier and got in touch with the rain bird rep. rain bird came back and said it was because we used teflon paste and teflon tape instead using of just teflon tape. the problem is we have used both tape and paste for years on these valves without ever having a problem. We also found a valve installed by another company split in the exact same place with no teflon paste. My supplier has warrantied the valves and offered a free case of valves for the trouble, although I have been very unimpressed with rain bird's follow through on this one they have yet to step up to the plate and take any sort of responsibility. Has anyone else had trouble with DVF's recently? or ever heard of teflon paste reacting with the plastic causing valves to split (rain bird's story). Not trying to complain just trying to figure out if the problem is just with us.

mitchgo
06-05-2012, 02:03 AM
What kind of threaded fittings do you use for your valve connection / manifolds? Manifold Tee? Sched 40 male adapters, sched 80? Nipples? Any kind of Metals?

Do you have a new service tech that could have over tightened the the threads on all of these valves? ( Remember the threads are tapered and get bigger as you screw them in which is why you don't ever go all the way in)

Did you winterize these sprinkler systems- a frozen valve can warp/ crack the plastic.

Dvf's are our valve of choice. In the last 10 days I've installed about 20 alone ( Replacing old valves) . The only time I've ever seen a valve body crack on a dvf was from my own doing of over tightening the manifold tee into the valve.

FIMCO-MEISTER
06-05-2012, 11:34 AM
Expect the Rainbird run around. The few times I dealt with RB issues with RB they denied, denied, denied, then suddenly the product changed. I wouldn't use paste though. Just stick with teflon. You may have an over zealous employee who thinks tight means putting the valve in a vice and tightening until it doesn't turn anymore. Hand tight then a quarter turn. If you use PVC and don't manifold your valves you will never have that problem with glued in valves.

Wet_Boots
06-05-2012, 12:05 PM
I've only used paste once, on a master valve on a high-pressure system with Orbit zone valves, which I didn't trust to not close with a bang. Used an Irritrol 2500TF as master.

For most uses, teflon tape should be all that's needed. I don't just apply a number of wraps, but cover the male threads going into the valve. That way, valve and fitting won't bind, and hand-tightening will work fine.

EverflowIrrigation
06-05-2012, 02:56 PM
We used schedule schedule 40 occur male adapters for our valves. I had the same problem with valve splits with two different guys installing them for me. I had the same guys installing them in Aug and Sept as I did through the winter. The Aug-Sept valves are fine. I understand stuff happens just a little taken back that rain bird will not take any reaponsibility, especially given the amount of rain bird product we install every yr. The wierd thing is none of them split right away, all of them split over the winter and have continued since we re activated the systems. I am sire they were wonterized properly too, as some failed on jobs that I personally winterized.
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EverflowIrrigation
06-05-2012, 02:58 PM
Pvc male adapters
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Wet_Boots
06-05-2012, 03:12 PM
the best manifolds will probably be the ones you make yourself with sch 80 TOE (threaded one end) nipples on the inlets - for one-inch valves, there is very little reason to consider using paste - if you want the best chance to avoid cracked threaded bodies, look at Irritrol 2500TF valves

SoCalLandscapeMgmt
06-05-2012, 05:54 PM
I'd call your RB rep up and scream like hell. Demand a meeting, dump a pile of cracked valves at his feet and tell him he has 5 minutes to make it right or 1) You're taking them to claims court for the cost involved in swapping the valves and 2) You'll never buy their product again. Put the ball in their court. Sometimes you have to be an A-Hole to get results.

1idejim
06-05-2012, 06:05 PM
I'd call your RB rep up and scream like hell. Demand a meeting, dump a pile of cracked valves at his feet and tell him he has 5 minutes to make it right or 1) You're taking them to claims court for the cost involved in swapping the valves and 2) You'll never buy their product again. Put the ball in their court. Sometimes you have to be an A-Hole to get results.

REP should stand for REPRESENTITIVE
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Mike Leary
06-05-2012, 06:54 PM
I'd call your RB rep up and scream like hell. Demand a meeting, dump a pile of cracked valves at his feet and tell him he has 5 minutes to make it right or 1) You're taking them to claims court for the cost involved in swapping the valves and 2) You'll never buy their product again. Put the ball in their court. Sometimes you have to be an A-Hole to get results.

I like that kind of talk, it's worked well for issues I've had with both Hunter and Rain Bird. 'Course, you don't get taken to lunch as much anymore. :cry:

Wet_Boots
06-05-2012, 06:59 PM
screw their lunches - they never buy me any Ch Margaux

Mike Leary
06-05-2012, 07:08 PM
screw their lunches - they never buy me any Ch Margaux

Is that available at the regular cheap-ass places REPS traditionally take us? When I sold stereo gear, the McIntosh crew would take us to the best of the best.

greenmonster304
06-05-2012, 07:21 PM
I had trouble with the RB drip and they sent me new rolls and gave me credit at the supply house.
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irritation
06-05-2012, 08:57 PM
Leaking Rain bird DVF's

I hope it's only your problem, I don't need that crap. I've haven't had an issue and have used them for years.

Sprinkus
06-05-2012, 09:45 PM
I've seen some of the solvent weld ones with out of round inlets.
Personally I'll stick with Irritrol for small, clean water valves.

CAPT Stream Rotar
06-05-2012, 09:50 PM
I hate the LIMR.

dvf has had issues.

irritation
06-05-2012, 09:56 PM
I've seen some of the solvent weld ones with out of round inlets.

Bullcrap, irritrol= toro

Wet_Boots
06-05-2012, 10:02 PM
Bullcrap, irritrol= toroIrritrol = Richdel, and Richdel valves invented the entire category of eternally repairable plastic valves.

Kiril
06-05-2012, 10:11 PM
REP should stand for REPRESENTITIVE

...... instead of REPREHENSIBLE!


and just an FYI to booty boy ..... I've split irritrol ASV's in the exact same fashion as the OP using hand tightened toe nips with tape and goop .... moral of that story .... irritrol ain't perfect..

Sprinkus
06-05-2012, 10:12 PM
Bullcrap, irritrol= toro

Can't tell what that means since your avatar is Toro.

irritation
06-05-2012, 10:20 PM
Can't tell what that means since your avatar is Toro.

Retro Toro, late 70's early 80's Toro had the market. Rainbird sucked, never heard of Richdel.

Mike Leary
06-05-2012, 10:21 PM
It's not the valves that are at fault, it's not the difference between using rectorseal or teflon tape: it's incorrect installation of the m.p.t.s, period.

Wet_Boots
06-05-2012, 10:29 PM
..........I've split irritrol ASV's in the exact same fashion as the OP using hand tightened toe nips with tape and goop .... moral of that story .... irritrol ain't perfect..What, are you proud? Why use paste on small valves anyway?

Mike Leary
06-05-2012, 10:43 PM
What, are you proud? Why use paste on small valves anyway?

Why not? The correct application is the answer, I quit using tape years ago.

irrig8r
06-05-2012, 10:59 PM
..... For most uses, teflon tape should be all that's needed. I don't just apply a number of wraps, but cover the male threads going into the valve. That way, valve and fitting won't bind, and hand-tightening will work fine.

I use the 1" DVF and the 3/4" and 1" A/S version of this valve (ASVF) all the time with either PVC MAs or a TOE or TBE nipple.

I use 4 to 5 wraps of Teflon tape and that's all. Hand tight and maybe just a 1/4 turn with the wrench for good measure.

Teflon paste makes it very easy to overtighten. Because the threads are slightly tapered, the farther they insert, the more pressure is exerted on the threaded portion of the body. I only use the paste on metal to metal connections.

irrig8r
06-05-2012, 11:01 PM
Irritrol = Richdel, and Richdel valves invented the entire category of eternally repairable plastic valves.

There you go again...

Mike Leary
06-05-2012, 11:06 PM
Irritrol = Richdel, and Richdel valves invented the entire category of eternally repairable plastic valves.

W*M valve parts have been interchangeable for years and years, as well.

irritation
06-06-2012, 12:06 AM
W*M sucks too. Solenoids and smartlines piss me off.

EverflowIrrigation
06-06-2012, 01:14 AM
I have been patient with rain bird thus far, but I am def looking into other valves. I have used weathermatic, easy to work on but gaskets are damaged easily and solenoids go out constantly, not good for our 3 year warranty...

mitchgo
06-06-2012, 01:31 AM
Well............ WELLL!!!

Call it a hunch...

But since the rain bird dvf is one of the top selling valves to residential professionals... And... you don't see too many other threads on this ( There are, however in comparison to other valves it's relative) Particularly there might be a slight more complaints because the % of use is generally much higher the other valves.

Don't you think some other factors could play into effect here instead of just Blaming the Industry suppling companies?

I'm just saying I live in wa too and haven't had this problem... Consider other avenues?

In any case.. I do feel bad that you are dealing with this and having so many damn issues!

I don't recommend to paste plastics and only paste /teflon metals.. that's my opinion.. I don't recommend more then 3-5 wraps... and on sched 40 Mipt's (male adapters) to leave at least 3 threads showing...


Also.. Do you buy in large bulk? You could have just had a bad batch?

irritation
06-06-2012, 01:40 AM
I have a feeling this guy is going to push another valve.

EverflowIrrigation
06-06-2012, 03:02 AM
I usually buy them by the case, sometimes 2or 3 cases at a time. It sounds like not many other people having the issue. We usually tighten them hand tight, then about 1/2 turn with channel locks teflon tape and teflon paste. We haven't been using teflon paste for the past few months since the problem is realized. It sounds like we either made mistakes in the way we installed them, or got a bad batch. Either way I appreciate the input. sounds like it is either our issue or a very isolated batch... In the meantime time to review installation procedures and valve choices

mitchgo
06-06-2012, 03:22 AM
For our installs our Poc's we convert from brass poc to sched 80 mipts . For a while there we were blowing all kind of cracked sched 80 mipts. I came to the conclusion we were over tightening

Wet_Boots
06-06-2012, 08:04 AM
W*M valve parts have been interchangeable for years and years, as well.W*M has nothing in plastic that goes back 40 years. Richdel got there first. Hydro-Rain was around, but their valve bodies are subject to having cracks.

Sprinkus
06-06-2012, 09:34 AM
TTIA article about threaded joint failure on page 20. (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/32248950/flipbook/April%202010/april2010issue.html)

Kiril
06-06-2012, 09:50 AM
Why not? The correct application is the answer, I quit using tape years ago.

Agreed. Sometimes I use both on plastic to plastic, but only wrap the tape a couple of times, and use goop to fill the rest of the threads.

FIMCO-MEISTER
06-06-2012, 10:31 AM
I use the 1" DVF and the 3/4" and 1" A/S version of this valve (ASVF) all the time with either PVC MAs or a TOE or TBE nipple.

I use 4 to 5 wraps of Teflon tape and that's all. Hand tight and maybe just a 1/4 turn with the wrench for good measure.

Teflon paste makes it very easy to overtighten. Because the threads are slightly tapered, the farther they insert, the more pressure is exerted on the threaded portion of the body. I only use the paste on metal to metal connections.

Same way I've done it as well for years and years. Can't recall ever having a split valve. Towards the end though it seems most of the valves I ran into were glued in. At first glued in valves bugged the heck out of me but I got to the point where they made sense in a typical residential system. Didn't affect the system and sped up installations plus never had to worry about leaking at the thread.

1idejim
06-06-2012, 10:49 AM
Valves are ABS and mfgs don't recommend the use of paste. here is an interesting fun fact about paste/ABS use. swimming pool skimmers are ABS and the threaded 2 in ports are straight sided rather than tapered. a contractor i worked for called me to ask if i was using paste as they were jacking 30 plus skimmers their gvys had plumbed using paste to seal the test loop ports. i said no, the install instructions say tape or ABS compatible products only. his reply was where'd you read that!
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Kiril
06-06-2012, 11:09 AM
Valves are ABS and mfgs don't recommend the use of paste. here is an interesting fun fact about paste/ABS use. swimming pool skimmers are ABS and the threaded 2 in ports are straight sided rather than tapered. a contractor i worked for called me to ask if i was using paste as they were jacking 30 plus skimmers their gvys had plumbed using paste to seal the test loop ports. i said no, the install instructions say tape or ABS compatible products only. his reply was where'd you read that!
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HUH? Irritrol valves either UV resistant PVC or glass-reinforced nylon (100 & 700 series)

1idejim
06-06-2012, 12:39 PM
HUH? Irritrol valves either UV resistant PVC or glass-reinforced nylon (100 & 700 series)

i stand corrected kiril, i just called my wholesaler and he looked up the specs on a number of valves. eye b wrong. my story of the skimmers is correct though.
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they did say TEFLON PASTE is recommended PIPE DOPE is not

Wet_Boots
06-06-2012, 01:10 PM
Valves are ABS and mfgs don't recommend the use of paste. here is an interesting fun fact about paste/ABS use. swimming pool skimmers are ABS and the threaded 2 in ports are straight sided rather than tapered. a contractor i worked for called me to ask if i was using paste as they were jacking 30 plus skimmers their gvys had plumbed using paste to seal the test loop ports. i said no, the install instructions say tape or ABS compatible products only. his reply was where'd you read that!
Posted via Mobile DeviceRichdel became players because their valve had a PVC body, which was difficult to manufacture, because molten PVC is destructive of conventional steel molds. Before the R204, they tried an ABS body with male threads.

Toro valves were ABS at first, which is why you saw the stainless-steel shells around the threaded female ends of all their early designs.

irrig8r
06-06-2012, 03:55 PM
Valves are ABS and mfgs don't recommend the use of paste.

How do you explain the slip version of the valves then?

My understanding is that the RB DVF/ ASVF series & PGA series are made of PVC. The PEB series are made of glass-filled nylon.

I'll assume that any of the valves that come in a slip x slip configuration from Hunter are PVC too.

Mike Leary
06-06-2012, 03:59 PM
How do you explain the slip version of the valves then?

I think, by now, Jim has realized his mistake. ;)

1idejim
06-06-2012, 04:27 PM
We according to boots i'm not entirely wrong. i am man enough to admit when i am wrong though, i'm not gonna kick and scream until this turns into a mess. notice also that i didn't call kiril names and addressed him directly. there is just as much tact involved in being wrong as there is in being right.
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Wet_Boots
06-06-2012, 04:42 PM
Nylon is a lot easier to mold than PVC, so that became an obvious choice for valves with female-threaded inlets, even if it meant higher material costs.

Kiril
06-06-2012, 04:45 PM
We according to boots i'm not entirely wrong. i am man enough to admit when i am wrong though, i'm not gonna kick and scream until this turns into a mess. notice also that i didn't call kiril names and addressed him directly. there is just as much tact involved in being wrong as there is in being right.

Which makes you a better man than most. :)

spammeplez
09-06-2012, 06:09 PM
Were these manufactured in Mexico around May - July of 2011? Ive had a high failure rate with these dvf-100 as well.

Almost exact same situation as you minus the volume.

R&S Lawn Care
09-07-2012, 08:44 PM
Leaking valve
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irrig8r
09-16-2012, 06:59 PM
My supplier hasn't been able to get PGAs for a month or more.. says they had some kind of a defect they are working on. SO now he's stocking DVFs when he didn't before. No problem with any I've installed so far.