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mrsteve
06-07-2012, 04:51 PM
I'm servicing a commercial system that is about four to five years old. Since it was first installed I've had to repair blow outs under 1812's, due I think, to using the wrong glue. This company uses the thick wall flex pipe for all their heads, the kind that is fitting sized and solvent welded. Their joints just don't stay together so I'm into a double digit count for repairs. This year however a new problem has surfaced. I'll see a blow out and think ok, another failed joint, but after digging it up I find the body of the 1812 has split (vertical). I pulled out three in one day and they were all split in the same place. Not on the casting line but right above the side inlet towards the top. All were split the same with one split top to bottom through the side inlet. These were all fed from the bottom so the side inlet shouldn't have been disturbed from the factory torque. Anybody else run into this? Plus the flex pipe deal they should be using a 795 or similar I think. Personally I don't use the glue in flex pipe on repairs because I normally don't have time to let it set up. The most recent install I've come into contact with had the thin wall pipe with barbed fittings for their high pops. So far only a hand full of those connections have come apart.

Wet_Boots
06-07-2012, 05:16 PM
What's the operating pressure?

Mike Leary
06-07-2012, 05:40 PM
Sure would like to see a pic. You don't freeze down there, so that's out. When you say "flex pipe", are you talking about "funny pipe". That's gotta be some kind of crazy pressure to blow those bodies. :dizzy:

SoCalLandscapeMgmt
06-07-2012, 05:57 PM
I've seen them fail... mostly from high pressure. Like Boots said.... what's the operating pressure?

mrsteve
06-07-2012, 06:30 PM
Sure would like to see a pic. You don't freeze down there, so that's out. When you say "flex pipe", are you talking about "funny pipe". That's gotta be some kind of crazy pressure to blow those bodies. :dizzy:
I'll try to get some pics tomorrow. The pipe is not funny pipe I think it's called abs. Very think wall and the OD is standard fitting size. I'll have to recheck the pressure, but I think it's under a hundred. They didn't start to split at the body until this year, so that's four or five from new. It's possible that the pressure has increased and that is pushing them over the edge I'll try to check it soon.

Mike Leary
06-07-2012, 06:37 PM
"dum da dum dum". That's a lot of pressure, even for me. I'd be thinking of a PRS 1812 and maybe even a PRV.

SoCalLandscapeMgmt
06-07-2012, 08:23 PM
"dum da dum dum". That's a lot of pressure, even for me. I'd be thinking of a PRS 1812 and maybe even a PRV.

Pressure regulator on the whole system. That's the only way to keep the bodies from cracking. The PRS stem will keep the high pressure misting in check but it won't do anything to help save the bodies.

CAPT Stream Rotar
06-07-2012, 08:27 PM
Pressure regulator on the whole system. That's the only way to keep the bodies from cracking. The PRS stem will keep the high pressure misting in check but it won't do anything to help save the bodies.


Totally agreed..I saw this 3 years ago in a large commercial...Reducers worked great.

The only set back on this if you have some long long mains>laterals you will notice a severe drop with psi on the last few heads on the line....

In my case it was about 2 football fields away 2" pvc..Last 6 heads were operating @ 1/2 radius

Mike Leary
06-07-2012, 08:28 PM
I've run 1800s with PRS @ 90 psi and have had no issues. Come to think of it, they were SAM heads, as well, so there was no surge on valve opening.

CAPT Stream Rotar
06-07-2012, 08:30 PM
I go to the POC before changing out all the heads.

Mike Leary
06-07-2012, 08:34 PM
I go to the POC before changing out all the heads.

Don't you guys use SAM/PRS heads out there, Eddie?

CAPT Stream Rotar
06-07-2012, 08:35 PM
Negative..just regular 1800's

Mike Leary
06-07-2012, 08:39 PM
Negative..just regular 1800's

Why?.........They should, at least, be SAMs, and PRS if you've got too much juice.

CAPT Stream Rotar
06-07-2012, 08:41 PM
The same reason why we dont use flow control valves...

out of my hands.

also the same reason why I dog down pgp's all the time.

Mike Leary
06-07-2012, 08:49 PM
The same reason why we dont use flow control valves...

out of my hands.

also the same reason why I dog down pgp's all the time.

You know my opinion of that.

CAPT Stream Rotar
06-07-2012, 08:51 PM
When your hand is not on the helm all you can do is take orders and be a good deck hand.

Mike Leary
06-07-2012, 08:59 PM
When your hand is not on the helm all you can do is take orders and be a good deck hand.

We've had this discussion before; you are between a rock and a hard place. I never suffered fools, which is why I choose to run my own show. You can convince the owner to get with it; do it. :hammerhead: :waving::drinkup:

CAPT Stream Rotar
06-07-2012, 09:00 PM
fair enough.

FIMCO-MEISTER
06-07-2012, 11:44 PM
Sure would like to see a pic. You don't freeze down there, so that's out. When you say "flex pipe", are you talking about "funny pipe". That's gotta be some kind of crazy pressure to blow those bodies. :dizzy:

Oh it freezes in Dallas. I've repaired many a cracked 12" popup after freeze damage.

mrsteve
06-08-2012, 09:35 AM
Here's the flex hose and a few of the 1812's

mrsteve
06-08-2012, 09:42 AM
Forgot to include one with the boot. I'll try to get a pressure check later today if possible. One of my customer is having a fence replaced and the contractors are doing their best to hit everything in sight, so a little busy. I showed the fence boss where the two DCV's were. They are manifolded into a 2 1/2" main and will make a big mess if they hit it. No wire in the main ditch there so I can't trace it. Fingers crossed today.

Wet_Boots
06-08-2012, 10:23 AM
I think they'd have been better off with standard swing pipe

Mike Leary
06-08-2012, 11:18 AM
They all seemed to split at the side mount, how odd. Either pressure or freeze, or a bad batch. Nice boot shot.

ArTurf
06-08-2012, 11:46 AM
also the same reason why I dog down pgp's all the time.

Do you have trouble sleeping at night?

I have a guy in my area who does this to the extreme. Choking down a #9 nozzle that throws 40' to cover a 15' area. All I can do is shake my head. The sad thing is he does way more installs than I do due to, I figure, a much lower price. Which he can do by dogging 2 pgp's to cover a 20' x 60' area while I am using 8-6" MP Rotators with check valve. Sad but true. I do get a lot of service work on his systems due to the fact he will not service them. I figure he gets complaints about dry spots and can't solve them due to the poor original design, then he just stops answering their calls and blows them off.

Mike Leary
06-08-2012, 11:52 AM
Do you have trouble sleeping at night?

I figure he gets complaints about dry spots and can't solve them due to the poor original design, then he just stops answering their calls and blows them off.

"He never returned our calls" was the most frequent line for me. Sadly, some had failed right out of the box, and nothing much could be done to fix them.It's not fun to have a client cry in front of you. :cry: On those 1812s, I'd be curious what the factory has to say about them, sure is screwy.

FIMCO-MEISTER
06-08-2012, 12:01 PM
If it's in an area with low head drainage/or has sams installed and sticks out of the bed some or is in a retainer box with sandy soil it will freeze and crack. We don't blowout systems in Texas so a hard freeze is going to cause damage under those circumstances.

mrsteve
06-08-2012, 03:29 PM
Here's the pressure check appox. 106 static and 97 dynamic. I've seen heads split from freeze, but these were at grade or below, plus we had a light winter. Pressure needs to be controlled for sure.

DanaMac
06-08-2012, 03:33 PM
I think you've found your problem right there. Plus consider any surges. PRV would be first thing to add in my book.
But it does seem odd to me, especially if they all split in the same place. Seems like a weak spot to me.

Wet_Boots
06-08-2012, 03:37 PM
75 psi is mfr rating, so they're off the hook - maybe a PRV module can be added to the master valve

mrsteve
06-08-2012, 03:38 PM
First call this morning, ell 2" lateral around new fence post. They missed the main and wire so I am thankful.

mrsteve
06-08-2012, 03:43 PM
75 psi is mfr rating, so they're off the hook - maybe a PRV module can be added to the master valve
Wish it had a master valve. I sure would give that a try. Now that I've seen the real pressure I'm concerned about a repair the installer made. The DCV was driven over while the system was being installed, and I got a glimpse of a compression coupling inside the jumbo box. I don't have much faith in those things. Seems like the pipe loves to pull out.

Wet_Boots
06-08-2012, 04:24 PM
Add a master valve, if possible, and make it the regulator, too.

greenmonster304
06-08-2012, 05:38 PM
Here's the flex hose and a few of the 1812's

is that poly that they tried to glue to pvc?

txirrigation
06-08-2012, 05:45 PM
is that poly that they tried to glue to pvc?

Yes, it is common around here. It isnt exactly poly, and is made to glue into PVC fittings. I don't use them, but a lot of guys do.

Pre-fab swing joints for me please.

greenmonster304
06-08-2012, 05:51 PM
Yes, it is common around here. It isnt exactly poly, and is made to glue into PVC fittings. I don't use them, but a lot of guys do.

Pre-fab swing joints for me please.

I make my own with Marlex. When ever I would buy the Pre made they would be too long or too short. I did s zone of 12" pops for a putting green today using my home made swing joints. I will post pics later.
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Mike Leary
06-08-2012, 06:55 PM
I custom-made every swing joint. Depending on how deep the lateral was and how much mulch was being added, it's impossible to know the length until you're in the trench and aligning for finish grade. Felco #2 clippers work great for swing pipe.

SoCalLandscapeMgmt
06-08-2012, 07:42 PM
Last time I discussed swing joints Leary and I got into it... threads were deleted and I think I was so pissed off that I didn't come back for a couple of weeks.....

Mike Leary
06-08-2012, 07:49 PM
Last time I discussed swing joints Leary and I got into it... threads were deleted and I think I was so pissed off that I didn't come back for a couple of weeks.....

Geez, I forgot, was it important? :dizzy:

SoCalLandscapeMgmt
06-08-2012, 07:51 PM
I dunno.... you were being grumpy, I was having a bad day and it all went down hill from there....

Mike Leary
06-08-2012, 08:01 PM
The beauty of the forum, is we generally start over the next day, still professional associates and Internet buddies. :)

FIMCO-MEISTER
06-08-2012, 10:04 PM
Funny pipe and blue twisters work for me

3/4" and above then the fancy stuff.

MikeyG
06-10-2012, 07:42 AM
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Wet_Boots
06-10-2012, 08:22 AM
Posted via Mobile Devicetell us more

irrig8r
06-11-2012, 07:09 PM
I think you've found your problem right there. Plus consider any surges. PRV would be first thing to add in my book.
But it does seem odd to me, especially if they all split in the same place. Seems like a weak spot to me.

Yeah, there's the problem. And I've experienced it with both 1812s and 1806s in the same high pressure situation.

Time for a PRV. A Zurn-Wilkins BR4 or NR3 won't set them back too much and has a wide adjustment range.

irrig8r
06-11-2012, 07:16 PM
Yes, it is common around here. It isnt exactly poly, and is made to glue into PVC fittings. I don't use them, but a lot of guys do.


It should not be poly but what we call "flex PVC" around here... Thick walled stuff. Salco used to (or maybe still does?) market it for drip lines. Overkill for that IMHO.

Use IPS Weld-On 795 with it. Used a lot here with bubblers. Easy to install ahead and push out of the way while planting.

Or if they did try to glue poly (can't tell wall thickness from the photo) they might have seen one done right and copied it badly.

irrig8r
06-11-2012, 07:22 PM
BTW, Salco appears to be a part of Weathermatic these days. Went to the "Tubing" page and it was blank (http://www.weathermatic.com/index.cfm?page=Tubing).

Toro sells it though, and calls it IPS tubing (http://www.toro.com/en-us/agriculture/hose/pvc/pages/default.aspx).

I've used it in tight repairs too, like when an angle is more than a 45 and less than a 90. Or on one occasion to slip thru bores in a raised concrete planter from the adjacent ground level bed when the concrete contractor forgot to include sleeves and the planters were already backfilled.

irritation
06-11-2012, 07:23 PM
what we call "flex PVC" around here...

I see no advantage to it over swing pipe. Why would you use it?

irrig8r
06-11-2012, 07:29 PM
I see no advantage to it over swing pipe. Why would you use it?

See above edit. Or to quote the Toro page, "Provides more flexibility and durability than rigid PVC and is more resistant to kinking than polyethylene tubing."

irritation
06-11-2012, 07:31 PM
See above edit.

Still don't see a reason.

mrsteve
06-11-2012, 07:45 PM
Still don't see a reason.
IMO not ever good for repairs. When I did use it we sanded the pipe and didn't even think about putting water to it that day. Now days those blue barb fitting and funny pipe are the ticket.

irritation
06-11-2012, 07:54 PM
You should never need a dauber on pipe less than 1/2".

irrig8r
06-11-2012, 09:42 PM
1. Of course, if you looked at the link, you'd realize that IPS flex PVC doesn't come any smaller than 1/2".

2. I wouldn't bother using it in place of funny pipe. It's great for particular situations, so I keep it on hand.

irritation
06-11-2012, 10:04 PM
1. The link you gave said "Used as flexible swing joints or risers"
2. I see now but have no use for it.

mrsteve
06-21-2012, 03:08 PM
Thought I would give one of the Rain Bird PRS DIAL deals a try in the zone I tested before that was in the nineties. Pressure is down, reading about 46 at the head. Setting it up by the instructions you increase the flow at the flow control (from fully closed) to within 15psi of what you would like to have. Then adjust the the gauge on the PRS DIAL. I opened the flow and read around 60 then turn the dial to around 40-45. The picture shows the dynamic now. Not sure of the principle, but the flow control is way down. Could I have achieved the same thing without the device? I'm afraid the valve is going to close too fast now, but maybe the dial thing will help with the shock. I still think the correct fix is a regulator. John Deere has a wilkins 600 for around 400, so that plus a master valve and wire then labor. Working on that bid now.

Mike Leary
06-21-2012, 05:00 PM
How about a pic of that v.b. that we can see clearly, now. :dizzy:

mrsteve
06-21-2012, 05:17 PM
Man, I was getting hit from both sides (1812's) even at the new lower pressure, very wet. It's a strip bed and I had the two adjacent ones turned while doing the install, but back in the proper orientation for the pic. Sorry