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Mikegyver
06-20-2012, 12:26 AM
Working on a system at a commercial property right now. Here are some pictures.

Mikegyver
06-20-2012, 12:27 AM
New pro C controller. This is my first controller that I have installed...how did I do?
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/--v8Use2Uu8c/T-FK4KEq4oI/AAAAAAAAA9k/dE7AOqaq8n8/s1018/IMAG0626-001.jpg

Mikegyver
06-20-2012, 12:32 AM
This one was a fun one. To the left you have a el with a 1/2" bushing in it. This goes to a popup. Next you have the T that goes straight down to the mainline. This must 90 a foot or 2 down and then go under the pavement. After than you have the rest of the lateral that goes to a bunch of popups. Well the lawncare guys must have been hitting it because there was no head there and a 4" popup would have stuck up 2" over grade. I could not lower it because of how the t was situated. So we had to improvise :)
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-hFRJrAIBvPw/T-FKpEDS4FI/AAAAAAAAA-I/RVA_KJzdBAE/s0-d/IMAG0632.jpg

irritation
06-20-2012, 12:34 AM
Not good.
1 - You used Hunter
2 - Not hardwired
3 - Did not remove old anchors

Mikegyver
06-20-2012, 12:37 AM
So here is what we did. 1/2" cutoff from the threaded el to another threaded el. Then over to another el, straight down to another el, and then over to a threaded el. then up with a 1/2" cutoff to a rainbird/hunter head. We did the best with what we had. It was plenty low...they will never run over it again.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Vi86QZhzXIo/T-FKxPETm4I/AAAAAAAAA-M/DJxo5MEZn8E/s0-d/IMAG0633-001.jpg

Mikegyver
06-20-2012, 12:39 AM
BTW....1804 w/ hunter screens/nozzles. Cheapest combo.
Yes the glue/primer was messy. This was one of those days it didnt matter :)

Mikegyver
06-20-2012, 12:41 AM
Not good.
1 - You used Hunter
2 - Not hardwired
3 - Did not remove old anchors
1. I replaced it with exactly what was there.
2. All I had to work with was an outlet. Was not about to try to hard wire it in anywhere. Plus at this location turning power off would have been difficult to say the least.
3. The old anchors were from a timer eons ago. Not from the one I took off.

irritation
06-20-2012, 12:43 AM
Stick with mowing.

Mikegyver
06-20-2012, 12:49 AM
Thanks. Know my work is not as good as yours but I've only been in this for 3 months or so and im only 18. Trying my best!!!

Mikegyver
06-20-2012, 12:51 AM
How would you have done it better in the same amount of time and for the same cost with the materials on hand (several bins of fittings).

TriCountyLawn
06-20-2012, 12:53 AM
Use some swing pipe next time. Good luck.

irritation
06-20-2012, 12:54 AM
I thought you were joking about the spray head, I guess not.

Mikegyver
06-20-2012, 12:56 AM
Use some swing pipe next time. Good luck.
The nearest swing pipe was 100 miles away at my supplier and they were closed. I learned that thats something that I need to keep on the truck. I know it looks like crap but I tried my best under the circumstances. I should have kept it a little cleaner...I did clean every joint though (given).
Mike

Mikegyver
06-20-2012, 12:57 AM
I thought you were joking about the spray head, I guess not.
What do you mean? the head itself?

cjohn2000
06-20-2012, 02:06 AM
So here is what we did. 1/2" cutoff from the threaded el to another threaded el. Then over to another el, straight down to another el, and then over to a threaded el. then up with a 1/2" cutoff to a rainbird/hunter head. We did the best with what we had. It was plenty low...they will never run over it again.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Vi86QZhzXIo/T-FKxPETm4I/AAAAAAAAA-M/DJxo5MEZn8E/s0-d/IMAG0633-001.jpg

I used to have the same problem with messy primer. I learned to shake the brush out to eliminate the excess, or just use clear primer. I don't know what kind of glue you use but Wet R' Dry sets faster. Carry parts to make your own swingjoints, but I like to have premade, like the Hunter because it saves time. Can't change the world by the weekend.... Just sayin:waving:

cjohn2000
06-20-2012, 02:16 AM
New pro C controller. This is my first controller that I have installed...how did I do?
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/--v8Use2Uu8c/T-FK4KEq4oI/AAAAAAAAA9k/dE7AOqaq8n8/s1018/IMAG0626-001.jpg

Whats up with the rusty pipe underneath? Maybe im a little OCD but I would have at least slapped a coupler and extended it up and put a male adapter into the controller. I wouldn't be afraid to shorten the cord, and I always make sure if I need to to upgrade the outlet cover to a while in use. At least you used a romex clamp on 'er.

mitchgo
06-20-2012, 02:52 AM
Maybe learn from a pro before start doing your own repairs?

Sure it works... But are you satisfied with your work?

Mikegyver
06-20-2012, 09:00 AM
Whats up with the rusty pipe underneath? Maybe im a little OCD but I would have at least slapped a coupler and extended it up and put a male adapter into the controller. I wouldn't be afraid to shorten the cord, and I always make sure if I need to to upgrade the outlet cover to a while in use. At least you used a romex clamp on 'er.
I didn't have any of that pipe on hand. I should have just lowered it so the pipe would have been at the bottom of the box. Ya I should have shortened the AC cord.

Mikegyver
06-20-2012, 09:02 AM
Maybe learn from a pro before start doing your own repairs?

Sure it works... But are you satisfied with your work?
I would but I doubt any of the guys in town would hire me since I have a landscape company and have started irrigation. Its not like I just got my license and am starting an irrigation business...I got my license to complement the other things I do.
Mike

ArTurf
06-20-2012, 12:16 PM
Here are some suggestions that I would have done differently.

I would have replaced the conduit going into the controller, this would look neater and more proffessional. Did you write the station locations on the program/instruction sheet with approximate run times. Did you ask them if they might want a rain sensor?

On moving the head, it would have been easier just to have used a swing pipe fitting and pipe to move the head. Personally I avoid 4" heads if practical. I would have used at least a 6". It is just too easy for turf or plants to overcome a 4" head. This would also make for an easier repair in the future if that fitting breaks then you will have to deal with the T and who knows what else. Since the fitting is the same height as the head my guess is it will be broken in the near future.

With irrigation it is alot of in the field experience learning process. Keep reading Lawnsite and take notes. Don't do things in "minimalist" way. Do them in a way that if you are working on them later you will not be cussing yourself. Step back and look at your work after you are finished and make a self assessment. Good luck.

jvanvliet
06-20-2012, 12:43 PM
Hee hee, wait till Kiril sees this :gunsfirin

The OP should know he can manufacture a swing joint using funny fittings & funny pipe... for starters.

Patriot Services
06-20-2012, 12:44 PM
For all the time and fittings a simple hand made swing joint and a 6" popup would have been easier. Those multiple 90's in a J shape are all over FL. They dont hold up to the lawn guys repeatedly running over them. Get comfortable with working with flex, it really makes life easier.:usflag:

The conduit really needs to go all the way to the box too.

mitchgo
06-20-2012, 09:51 PM
Just take pride in the work you do . :)

Installed this controller today

Patriot Services
06-20-2012, 09:53 PM
Notice clean, neat, well secured and easily serviced in the future.
Posted via Mobile Device

Mike Leary
06-20-2012, 10:03 PM
Nice job, Mitch, you celebrated the area you had to work with. :clapping:

muddywater
06-20-2012, 10:13 PM
This why an "irrigation license" is f^%>ing r_etarded. People get there license and think they are a pro. I would bet stryker's irrigation tutorial is more educational than any state mandated license class/test.

That being said, its nice seeing an 18year old kid working and trying to get out there and learn something instead of playing video games.

Mcc, take a pic of all your repairs and installations and post them on here. If you can absorb and stomach the criticism/ advice from these anal old farts on here you will be one hell of an irrigator in a few years. Experience and knowledge is invaluable.

And google funny pipe, it will make your life wonderful.

The benefit to hardwiring is the gfi outlet will not trip and cause plant material to die if you go a week without water. Although i personally do not make a habit out of it. Damn good suggestion though

Mike Leary
06-20-2012, 10:19 PM
The benefit to hardwiring is the gfi outlet will not trip and cause plant material to die if you go a week without water. Although i personally do not make a habit out of it. Damn good suggestion though
I made a habit out of having the electricians hard-wire me ahead of the external GFI. They are not friendly to us, even on a dedicated circuit. :nono:

Kiril
06-20-2012, 10:19 PM
I made a habit out of having the electricians hard-wire me ahead of the external GFI. They are not friendly to us, even on a dedicated circuit. :nono:

The benefit to hardwiring is the gfi outlet will not trip and cause plant material to die if you go a week without water. Although i personally do not make a habit out of it. Damn good suggestion though

:nono:

You are violating code if you don't hardwire the controller into either a GFCI protected circuit or the load side of a GFCI receptacle, not to mention opening yourself up to liability. Same goes for plugging it in.

Mike Leary
06-20-2012, 10:41 PM
:nono:

You are violating code if you don't hardwire the controller into either a GFCI protected circuit or the load side of a GFCI receptacle, not to mention opening yourself up to liability. Same goes for plugging it in.

On a dedicated circuit (which I aways tried my best to get),I believe my guys got around it by hard-wiring the clock and putting in a water-proof housing with an on/off switch

muddywater
06-20-2012, 10:45 PM
:nono:

You are violating code if you don't hardwire the controller into either a GFCI protected circuit or the load side of a GFCI receptacle, not to mention opening yourself up to liability. Same goes for plugging it in.

So what is the advantage of hard wiring if you are still on gfi circuit or on load side of a receptacle. Its still going to flip like the receptacles always do? If you hardwired w/out a gfi, wouldn't the breaker still trip? Or is it more for protection from lightning stopping at gfi outlet.

I don't hardwire unless replacing an existing hardwired controller, i figure that is why they come with a plug.

Kiril
06-20-2012, 10:55 PM
On a dedicated circuit (which I aways tried my best to get),I believe my guys got around it by hard-wiring the clock and putting in a water-proof housing with an on/off switch

An inspector on his/her game would never pass it.

So what is the advantage of hard wiring if you are still on gfi circuit or on load side of a receptacle. Its still going to flip like the receptacles always do? If you hardwired w/out a gfi, wouldn't the breaker still trip? Or is it more for protection from lightning stopping at gfi outlet.

I don't hardwire unless replacing an existing controller, i figure that is why they come with a plug.

GFCI's are for personnel protection. They are suppose to prevent you from becoming a grounding rod. Standard circuit breakers serve for overload and short circuit protection. They operate differently and serve different purposes.

Mike Leary
06-20-2012, 10:59 PM
Those GFIs need to be tested, just like backflow. Maybe you are right about lightning, or power surges, but I've had no problems. By the way, I don't like to see clocks plugged into an outlet. Picky me, I guess.

muddywater
06-20-2012, 11:03 PM
I have one gfi oulet on an entrance wall that trips once or twice a year and my irrigation controller is plugged into it. I have about 5k in annuals flowers at this entrance. How do you avoid having the outlet trip? I have even had the outlet replaced twice by an electrician.

muddywater
06-20-2012, 11:05 PM
Those GFIs need to be tested, just like backflow. Maybe you are right about lightning, or power surges, but I've had no problems. By the way, I don't like to see clocks plugged into an outlet. Picky me, I guess.

The house can burn, we need to keep the grass green

Kiril
06-20-2012, 11:08 PM
Those GFIs need to be tested, just like backflow. Maybe you are right about lightning, or power surges, but I've had no problems. By the way, I don't like to see clocks plugged into an outlet. Picky me, I guess.

A GFCI is not a surge arrestor. Again, different device to serve a different purpose. The code is in place to protect people. Circumventing code with creative "solutions" won't absolve you from liability.

Note, I think some codes are f'n overkill and stoopid, but this one isn't.

Mike Leary
06-20-2012, 11:10 PM
I have one gfi oulet on an entrance wall that trips once or twice a year and my irrigation controller is plugged into it. I have about 5k in annuals flowers at this entrance. How do you avoid having the outlet trip? I have even had the outlet replaced twice by an electrician.

Any of your smart-ass electricians figured out what else is connected to that leg?

Kiril
06-20-2012, 11:14 PM
I have one gfi oulet on an entrance wall that trips once or twice a year and my irrigation controller is plugged into it. I have about 5k in annuals flowers at this entrance. How do you avoid having the outlet trip? I have even had the outlet replaced twice by an electrician.

You can't. Everyone who works with controllers wired into GFCI receptacles has faced this. Replacing them can solve the problem sometimes, or the problem might be somewhere else in the circuit. The GFCI breakers are a better option IMO as they seem less prone to nuisance tripping.

muddywater
06-20-2012, 11:15 PM
Any of your smart-ass electricians figured out what else is connected to that leg?

It is a dedicated circuit. They have replaced a defective gfi outlet twice in the past 18 months.

muddywater
06-20-2012, 11:18 PM
You can't. Everyone who works with controllers wired into GFCI receptacles has faced this. Replacing them can solve the problem sometimes, or the problem might be somewhere else in the circuit. The GFCI breakers are a better option IMO as they seem less prone to nuisance tripping.

So a gfi receptacle basically acts as a fuse? If change out to a gfi breaker, can i do a regular receptacle and be up to code?

Mike Leary
06-20-2012, 11:24 PM
So a gfi receptacle basically acts as a fuse? If change out to a gfi breaker, can i do a regular receptacle and be up to code?

In WA State that is permitted. Check with your local codes.

Kiril
06-20-2012, 11:27 PM
So a gfi receptacle basically acts as a fuse? If change out to a gfi breaker, can i do a regular receptacle and be up to code?

No, not a fuse. It detects voltage difference between the hot and neutral. If the difference exceeds certain value, it trips.

Yes, you can use a standard receptacle on a GFCI protected circuit, however anything used outdoors needs to be weather rated (resistant) now.

Kiril
06-20-2012, 11:45 PM
No, not a fuse. It detects voltage difference between the hot and neutral. If the difference exceeds certain value, it trips.

I will correct myself before someone else does. It detects current difference between hot and neutral, not voltage. Good thing I check my own posts. Sorry.

Mike Leary
06-20-2012, 11:46 PM
RainMaster does a neat thing with the hot side where the clock is hardwired and a GFI outlet/switch circuit is provided inside the clock. (lower left)

1idejim
06-20-2012, 11:52 PM
I will correct myself before someone else does. It detects current difference between hot and neutral, not voltage. Good thing I check my own posts. Sorry.

current imbalance actually, i understood you though.

RainMaster does a neat thing with the hot side where the clock is hardwired and a GFI outlet/switch circuit is provided inside the clock. (lower left)

some of the smart pool controllers have a similar arraingment boss but neverless a gfci must be wired at the equipment pad.

Kiril
06-21-2012, 12:00 AM
current imbalance actually

That would be a better and more technically accurate way to state it.

some of the smart pool controllers have a similar arraingment boss but neverless a gfci must be wired at the equipment pad.

Tis true. Funny thing, just had a client that was having problems with their pool lights, in particular the GFCI receptacle is was wired through kept tripping (the required one at the equipment pad). Turned out to be one of the bulbs was going bad. It was still working, for the very short period of time before it tripped the GFCI.

Mikegyver
06-21-2012, 12:30 AM
Sorry to sound stupid, but why not just plug it in the wall? It would be extremely hard and beyond budget at this site to hard wire it in. Theres an outlet located conveniently below.
Ill stomach the criticism. I need to learn. All that I have learned as far as working with irrigation systems/plumbing is through trial and error and of course our irrigation course. I am the only person in my family and even extended family that does any type of service work much less irrigation. I have had to learn everything I know (very very little) on my own. Its been good for me but at the same time it would have helped to have someone take me under their wings for a while to show me the ropes. I do have a neighbor that showed me the right way (overkill) to join pipes and do basic pvc work several years ago. Also have a few irrigators I can call and ask for pointers when in a squeeze.
Thanks all,
Mike

cjohn2000
06-21-2012, 12:39 AM
RainMaster does a neat thing with the hot side where the clock is hardwired and a GFI outlet/switch circuit is provided inside the clock. (lower left)

Nice. Most of our Mcdonalds controllers are hardwired Pro-c's. Had a transformer fail and ended up replacing the transformer while it was "HOT" My boss would rather not bother the manager. Just tryin to make the boss happy.

Sorry to sound stupid, but why not just plug it in the wall?

cjohn2000
06-21-2012, 12:56 AM
Sorry to sound stupid, but why not just plug it in the wall?
To me, its for the same reason I hate non locking controllers. Just sayin :waving:

jvanvliet
06-21-2012, 06:01 AM
So a gfi receptacle basically acts as a fuse? If change out to a gfi breaker, can i do a regular receptacle and be up to code?

That's what we do here; Pump and controler are on a dedicated GFI circuit breaker. Also, we don't plug controlers in outside. At least I don't; everything is hard wired. Exterior GFI outlets are a PIA.

muddywater
06-21-2012, 06:19 AM
I don't see the advantage to hardwiring.

Kiril
06-21-2012, 07:31 AM
I don't see the advantage to hardwiring.

Give the client the option. That said, I prefer hardwire as it is a safer and cleaner install and it doesn't eat up an external plug.

muddywater
06-21-2012, 07:40 AM
I see the advantage in freeing up a plug. I could see it being cleaner if it is run straight back through the drywall. How is it safer? And you could only install outdoor clocks w transformer built in.
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Wet_Boots
06-21-2012, 07:43 AM
I think the ability to "pull the plug" on anything electrical has value. That being said, I would jump through hoops to make it so my sprinkler system did not depend on a GFCI outlet/circuit never tripping.

Kiril
06-21-2012, 07:52 AM
I see the advantage in freeing up a plug. I could see it being cleaner if it is run straight back through the drywall. How is it safer? And you could only install outdoor clocks w transformer built in.


Don't run it back through the dry wall, use an extension box. It is safer because it is more water proof, protected from the elements and kid proof. This one was installed before code was changed requiring those massive covers.

Kiril
06-21-2012, 07:58 AM
I think the ability to "pull the plug" on anything electrical has value. That being said, I would jump through hoops to make it so my sprinkler system did not depend on a GFCI outlet/circuit never tripping.

If it is wired through a GFCI receptacle, just hit the test button.

The only way you might, and I stress might, be able to get away with not installing without GFCI protection is if you put it somewhere inside like your living room plugged in. Even then a code official would likely shoot it down. Garages are now required to have GFCI protection on all receptacles.

Wet_Boots
06-21-2012, 08:14 AM
I don't know if air conditioning units have a GFCI. If not, then maybe, just maybe, the same sort of disconnect box could be used to feed a controller.

Kiril
06-21-2012, 08:20 AM
I don't know if air conditioning units have a GFCI. If not, then maybe, just maybe, the same sort of disconnect box could be used to feed a controller.

No, they don't, but then it is not something that people are constantly accessing, with potentially with wet hands either. Further a disconnect is no different than a circuit breaker and offers no personnel protection.

1idejim
06-21-2012, 08:36 AM
many years ago i was plumbing a pool/spa for some folks that lived in a gated community/private golf course. their controller was on a gfci inside the garage.

my demmo hammer and hot box would trip the gfci and without access, the landscape suffered, near died because the panel was inside the garage and the owners didn't give the contractor a key to the garage while they took a vacation.

we could have been hung if it were not for the fact that REASONABLE ACCESS was a part of the contract. i contacted the pool contractor when the gfci tripped and told him i was draggin up, be back when i could have power again.

i learned a lot from this situation;

if the owners would have left a spare set of keys with the contractor or
if the controller would have been hard wired to a sub panel or
if the exterior outlets would have been on a separate circuit or
if the controller would have been mounted outside or
if i had been born rich instead of good looking there would have been no interruption in work or service :laugh::laugh:

BTW boots, at your age you don't want too many people near to you with access to plugs that can be easily pulled. :nono:

muddywater
06-21-2012, 08:39 AM
BTW boots, at your age you don't want too many people near to you with access to plugs that can be easily pulled. :nono:

best point for hard wired so far!

Kiril
06-21-2012, 08:42 AM
many years ago i was plumbing a pool/spa for some folks that lived in a gated community/private golf course. their controller was on a gfci inside the garage.

my demmo hammer and hot box would trip the gfci and without access, the landscape suffered, near died because the panel was inside the garage and the owners didn't give the contractor a key to the garage while they took a vacation.

we could have been hung if it were not for the fact that REASONABLE ACCESS was a part of the contract. i contacted the pool contractor when the gfci tripped and told him i was draggin up, be back when i could have power again.

One of my accounts just had a similar thing happen. Contractor blew the breaker the controller was on (it was mounted outside) but he didn't know where the panel was (it was outside too), so he left the breaker tripped and I got the call the lawn was getting crispy.

Wet_Boots
06-21-2012, 08:55 AM
BTW boots, at your age you don't want too many people near to you with access to plugs that can be easily pulled. :nono:Ouch! And me pressed into duty on the hottest day of the year, too. Hope I don't melt. :drinkup:

Kiril
06-21-2012, 09:24 AM
Ouch! And me pressed into duty on the hottest day of the year, too. Hope I don't melt. :drinkup:

Cleaning your place and taking a shower for the first time in a month doesn't count. :laugh:

jvanvliet
06-21-2012, 12:16 PM
I don't see the advantage to hardwiring.

All our controllers are outside. We put a switch I between the breaker and the pump/controller so we can service them without having to access the breakers.
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greg8872
06-21-2012, 05:38 PM
One other point is that if you just plug it into a GFCI outlet, more chance of the homeowner deciding to use the other side of the outlet to plug something into it. If they trip it, they go plug into another outlet continue on, forgetting they tripped it.

(Worked for an electrical contractor before, and was surprised how many people are clueless to a GCFI outlet)

-Greg

greenmonster304
06-21-2012, 08:58 PM
Ouch! And me pressed into duty on the hottest day of the year, too. Hope I don't melt. :drinkup:

How hot did it get in your neck of the woods today?
Posted via Mobile Device

ed2hess
06-21-2012, 09:23 PM
I don't see the advantage to hardwiring.

Simple every time anybody sees water runnign when they think it shouldn't they pull the plug. And they never call the irrigator and then when he comes for monthly check the grass is all dead. Lock em up as tight as possible. And I don't consider it safe or water proof unless there is a locked cover on the socket.

muddywater
06-21-2012, 10:07 PM
Simple every time anybody sees water runnign when they think it shouldn't they pull the plug. And they never call the irrigator and then when he comes for monthly check the grass is all dead. Lock em up as tight as possible. And I don't consider it safe or water proof unless there is a locked cover on the socket.

I don't really experience clients pulling the plug on there irrigation. If they do, it is trying to unsuccessfully remedy a valve stuck open which they need a professional for anyway. I do experience the gfi tripping and the client realizing his grass his dead.

I wish all esp clocks had a "save contractor default" like the esp smart.

Locked socket? I don't think i have seen one of those.

1idejim
06-21-2012, 10:51 PM
Ouch! And me pressed into duty on the hottest day of the year, too. Hope I don't melt. :drinkup:

i was jvst funnin about. i didnt think you'd go all to pieces and go to drinking the good stuff.
Posted via Mobile Device

ed2hess
06-24-2012, 05:08 PM
The guy had a Tee for going under the side walk and another Tee tight against it for the head. Swing joints are important.

Without A Drought
06-24-2012, 06:34 PM
is that a rigid swing joint?

Mikegyver
06-24-2012, 06:39 PM
I plan on keeping swing joints on the truck from now on.

muddywater
06-24-2012, 07:05 PM
No, they don't, but then it is not something that people are constantly accessing, with potentially with wet hands either. Further a disconnect is no different than a circuit breaker and offers no personnel protection.

GFI outlet tripped again this weekend at the commercial job I keep having problems with. Would you recommend them getting a gfi circuit? The only negative is that if it trips I might not have access during non business hours.

Kiril
06-24-2012, 08:14 PM
is that a rigid swing joint?

That is a Hunter 6" swing joint, or one of its knock offs.

GFI outlet tripped again this weekend at the commercial job I keep having problems with. Would you recommend them getting a gfi circuit? The only negative is that if it trips I might not have access during non business hours.

After ruling out a bad GFCI device, I would attempt to find out why it is tripping before I did anything.

Wet_Boots
06-24-2012, 08:49 PM
If an air conditioner disconnect box could be installed by the electrician on a non-GFCI circuit, you could have access to disconnect controller power, to allow you to hardwire the controller, and you could padlock the disconnect box.

ed2hess
06-24-2012, 08:53 PM
If an air conditioner disconnect box could be installed by the electrician on a non-GFCI circuit, you could have access to disconnect controller power, to allow you to hardwire the controller, and you could padlock the disconnect box.

That is pretty much how the code is inour city. There has to be power disconnect within site of controller. And we lock both the disconnect and the controller. If they wasn't locked the water would be off more than on at these resturants.

1idejim
06-24-2012, 09:04 PM
That is a Hunter 6" swing joint, or one of its knock offs.



After ruling out a bad GFCI device, I would attempt to find out why it is tripping before I did anything.

that makes way too much sense my friend

muddywater
06-24-2012, 10:43 PM
that makes way too much sense my friend

Way to go old man! You made a snappy comment!

Yeah they have had the electricians out 3 times before and it still trips, burns out, or flips the breaker inside. Guess I will have to deal with the electrician directly to figure this mess out. You would think they would have corrected the problem after 3 visits.

Kiril
06-24-2012, 11:19 PM
Maybe try a competent electrician.

muddywater
06-24-2012, 11:26 PM
Maybe try a competent electrician.

Yeah really.
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Wet_Boots
06-25-2012, 07:44 AM
That is pretty much how the code is in our city. There has to be power disconnect within site of controller. And we lock both the disconnect and the controller. If they wasn't locked the water would be off more than on at these restaurants.I see it as the ideal division of labor, and a means to make a system independent of any GFCI.

Kiril
06-25-2012, 10:20 AM
I see it as the ideal division of labor, and a means to make a system independent of any GFCI.

I see it as a code violation and dangerous.

Kiril
06-25-2012, 10:39 AM
Yeah really.

If they don't have one or both of these, then send them home.

http://www.fluke.com/Fluke/usen/Insulation-Testers/Fluke-1587-1577.htm?PID=56012

http://www.fluke.com/Fluke/usen/Clamp-Meters/Fluke-360.htm?PID=56072&trck=360#

Wet_Boots
06-25-2012, 11:52 AM
I see it as a code violation and dangerous.Explain. Explain what code is violated by a disconnect box. And if you manage to get that far, demonstrate how your explanation would not apply to air conditioning work.

Kiril
06-25-2012, 12:57 PM
a) Irrigation controllers are not air conditioners.

b) Air conditioning/refrigeration equipment are covered under a different article of the NEC.

c)There is a reason irrigation controllers come with cords. You take the cord off, then you are responsible for providing the same protection for the controller that would have been provided if it had been plugged into a GFCI protected receptacle. Hardwiring does not negate the need for GFCI protection nor does it nullify the GFCI requirements or intent of the code.

d) A disconnect, particularly a locked one, does not provide any personnel protection.

e) I have seen inspectors flag irrigation controllers that were not GFCI protected.

Wet_Boots
06-25-2012, 01:53 PM
If that was your expert testimony, go away and play with your magnets. :)

Nothing you stated touches upon the actual governing codes. As it happens, controllers do not come with cords. They never will come with cords.

All controllers are powered by class-2 control transformers. Before there ever was a modern irrigation controller, there were, and still are, class-2 control transformers that are hard-wired without any additional protection beyond the circuit breaker that supplies the transformer. There is no additional risk created by a hard-wired outdoor controller, and the disconnect is the safe, economical means to supply said controller.

Kiril
06-25-2012, 02:08 PM
Nothing you stated touches upon the actual governing codes.

Apparently you need someone to read the NEC to you then.

As it happens, controllers do not come with cords. They never will come with cords.

Really? Seems to me I remember some controllers coming with cords, not to mention controllers with wall warts. In fact, I have a container filled with unused irrigation controller cords and old wall warts. Hmmmmm.

All controllers are powered by class-2 control transformers. Before there ever was a modern irrigation controller, there were, and still are, class-2 control transformers that are hard-wired without any additional protection beyond the circuit breaker that supplies the transformer. There is no additional risk created by a hard-wired outdoor controller, and the disconnect is the safe, economical means to supply said controller.

Tell that to the inspectors who flagged controllers that were not GFCI protected. Further, who gives a rats ass how it "used to be". Codes have changed boots.

Perhaps I'll do it your way, then when the inspector flags it I will just say...

but boots said I could do it this way and he said it complies with code, so screw you ..... Mr. Inspector .... sir :rolleyes:

Wet_Boots
06-25-2012, 02:38 PM
Your inspectors who operate by personal prejudices instead of actual written codes have my express personal invitation to fornicate themselves.

If the class-2-transformer input of an irrigation controller is in any way a danger to anyone whatsoever, it is equally dangerous whether or not it is hard-wired. If the output of a class-2-transformer is in any way a danger, then every heating thermostat in America is equally a hazard, as the wires entering them are connected to a class-2 transformer, with no GFCI involved.

Remember we are talking codes here. We do not care about any particular local ordinance that might affect someone's work in a particular municipality. That falls outside of codes.

Kiril
06-25-2012, 05:09 PM
Blah, blah, blah.

NEC article 210.8

Wet_Boots
06-25-2012, 05:18 PM
210.8 refers to receptacles and a hard-wired device involves no receptacle

Kiril
06-25-2012, 08:57 PM
210.8 refers to receptacles and a hard-wired device involves no receptacle

A hardwired device that is intentionally wired around a receptacle to bypass the receptacles intended purpose. Hmmm boots, I wonder how the inspector will view that. The intent of the code is quite clear, regardless of your creative interpretation, and until you can show me where the code has a specific exception for hardwired devices such as irrigation controllers, you are pissing into the wind.

BTW boots, I have the code on my desktop, so feel free to cite any appropriate article you want.

Wet_Boots
06-25-2012, 09:09 PM
There is no receptacle needed to connect an outdoor lawn sprinkler controller. On your best day, you will not buy a lawn sprinkler controller that has a line-voltage power cord.

No receptacle, no GFCI - use a disconnect box and hard-wire the controller, just like a hundred million class-2 transformers are hard-wired, and not powered through a GFCI, and no worries and no code violations.

Kiril
06-25-2012, 09:18 PM
There is no receptacle needed to connect an outdoor lawn sprinkler controller. On your best day, you will not buy a lawn sprinkler controller that has a line-voltage power cord.

Oh, I see, so now we are restricting our discussion to just outdoor controllers. Right off the top of my head, WMSL1600 comes with a line voltage power cord and is exterior rated.

No receptacle, no GFCI - use a disconnect box and hard-wire the controller, just like a hundred million class-2 transformers are hard-wired, and not powered through a GFCI, and no worries and no code violations.

Still waiting for the code that specifically allows for hardwired devices to circumvent personnel protection requirements. No worries boots, you won't be able to produce it, just like you can't produce your magic 3 variable equation.

irritation
06-25-2012, 09:23 PM
I have found a lot of irrigation controllers plugged into the same GFCI circuit as a yard lamp post. Those things are always cheap and poorly wired and when they get wet it trips.

Wet_Boots
06-25-2012, 09:50 PM
Weathermatic is desperate for sales, to include a line cord. Better companies leave it to the installer, and by no means is there any law that prohibits hard-wiring a class-2 control transformer, because every home with a heating thermostat has a hard-wired class-2 transformer.

irritation
06-25-2012, 10:03 PM
Most heating and air techs are not licensed but does not stop them from running wires to their line set.

Kiril
06-25-2012, 10:18 PM
Weathermatic is desperate for sales, to include a line cord. Better companies leave it to the installer, and by no means is there any law that prohibits hard-wiring a class-2 control transformer, because every home with a heating thermostat has a hard-wired class-2 transformer.

Blah, blah, blah, blah.

Wet_Boots
06-25-2012, 10:20 PM
There is simply no need to GFCI a class-2 transformer. They've always been hard-wired and always will be hard-wired. Strictly on current capacity, a disconnect box is overkill, but you could have a control transformer hard-wired to a branch of any ampacity, and no worries no foul.

And you can keep on trying, Magnet Boy, but you will never ever find any code that requires a line cord to be added to a controller that is supplied without one.

Kiril
06-25-2012, 10:32 PM
Wind .... pissing :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

irritation
06-25-2012, 10:33 PM
Damn, I wish it would rain. I'm so sick of this crap. If I wanted this weather I would move to Arizona. They should ban fireworks and irrigation.

Wet_Boots
06-25-2012, 10:42 PM
So just how many people hardwiring controllers have ever been informed by inspectors that their work was forbidden by code? Magnet Boy has the code books and he still can't find anything forbidding hard-wiring controllers.

irritation
06-25-2012, 11:05 PM
The only time I had to deal with inspectors was on gov jobs. The only thing they looked for was purple primer.

Kiril
06-25-2012, 11:14 PM
So just how many people hardwiring controllers have ever been informed by inspectors that their work was forbidden by code? Magnet Boy has the code books and he still can't find anything forbidding hard-wiring controllers.

Who said anything about forbidding the hardwiring of controllers? Man, you are getting desperate here boots. You have gone from twisting, to flailing, to convulsing.

The code has listed exceptions where GFCI protection is waived. Hardwiring equipment/devices not listed behind a required GFCI protected receptacle, in a fashion that circumvents that GFCI protection is NOT one of them.

Further, the code specifically states (725.127) that the supply side wiring of a class 2 or 3 power source comply with the requirements in chapters 1-4.

Wet_Boots
06-26-2012, 05:46 AM
This was always about hardwiring controllers outdoors, in order to not have to worry about systems failing to operate from either nuisance tripping or nuisance personnel on site (you must be a member of their union)

Kiril
06-26-2012, 09:06 AM
Errr, this was always about if an irrigation controller requires GFCI protection. I will maintain, and continue to maintain per my interpretation of the code, the interpretation of inspectors I have dealt with and the intent to provide personnel protection, that any device/equipment that is attached to a branch circuit serving receptacles in the restricted areas noted in the code requires GFCI protection, hard wired or not. Until you can show me in the code where there is an applicable exception or approved alternative to wiring irrigation controllers around GFCI protection this discussion is over.

Wet_Boots
06-26-2012, 09:22 AM
your insistence in post #28 that a controller must be fed from a GFCI is not supported by code - class 2 control transformers to this very day are still not GFCI'd, and likely never will be - no code or law requires that an irrigation controller must be powered by a plug-in line cord, so rules regarding receptacles do not apply


As far as this Clash of Titans goes, you knocked yourself out with your first wild swing.

Kiril
06-26-2012, 09:28 AM
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah

Patriot Services
06-26-2012, 09:39 AM
How would you have done it better in the same amount of time and for the same cost with the materials on hand (several bins of fittings).

Aren't you glad you posted here in the "Wolves Den"? Even the Pros on here can't agree half the time.
Posted via Mobile Device

Wet_Boots
06-26-2012, 09:50 AM
when it comes to irrigation controllers being required to be GFCI'd, the code book is like a jar of Ragu, because it ain't in there

irrig8r
06-26-2012, 10:06 AM
when it comes to irrigation controllers being required to be GFCI'd, the code book is like a jar of Ragu, because it ain't in there

If its going to plug into an outdoor receptacle I go with a GFCI and WP cover. I already do it for LV lighting TFs anyway, and sometimes they share a receptacle.

Whether specified or enforced in your vicinity or not, it makes sense.
Posted via Mobile Device

Kiril
06-26-2012, 10:19 AM
But Gregg, class 2 transformers aren't required to be GFCI protected according to boots. Doesn't matter where they are installed. :rolleyes:

Wet_Boots
06-26-2012, 10:23 AM
Plug-in is a different story, and a residence is also different than a commercial site.

But the key is that any modern irrigation controller is powered by a class-2 control transformer, and those transformers are hard-wired for every heating system (and doorbell) across the land, so there is no intrinsic danger to hard-wiring a controller to a non-GFCI circuit, and a disconnect box is a good way to have restricted access to power down a controller for system maintenance.

Kiril
06-26-2012, 10:33 AM
On what planet is a line voltage hardwired irrigation controller or lighting controller comparable to a thermostat or door bell on a class 2 circuit? Your argument might have some traction if you were arguing that solenoids don't need GFCI protection, but then that isn't the argument, now is it boots. :laugh:

So ........ blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Wet_Boots
06-26-2012, 10:41 AM
When you find the applicable code that forbids hard-wiring an irrigation controller to a non-GFCI circuit, I'm sure you'll tell us all about it.

DanaMac
06-26-2012, 10:42 AM
Aren't you glad you posted here in the "Wolves Den"? Even the Pros on here can't agree half the time.
Posted via Mobile Device

It's like an Abbott and Costello skit of "Who's on First?"

Wet_Boots
06-26-2012, 10:55 AM
It's like an Abbott and Costello skit of "Who's on First?"or a segment of Crossfire where everyone's on Darvons :dizzy:

Mike Leary
06-26-2012, 12:40 PM
When you find the applicable code that forbids hard-wiring an irrigation controller to a non-GFCI circuit, I'm sure you'll tell us all about it.

::::Waits in anxious anticipation to see if every clock I've had hardwired by licensed electricians violated code:::::dizzy:

Kiril
06-26-2012, 02:02 PM
When you find the applicable code that forbids hard-wiring an irrigation controller to a non-GFCI circuit, I'm sure you'll tell us all about it.

Keep on changing the conditions of the issue boots, you might eventually gain some traction.

Wet_Boots
06-26-2012, 02:15 PM
As long as you stand by your statement that a controller hard-wired to a disconnect box is a code violation, you got some 'splainin' to do :nono:

1idejim
06-26-2012, 07:15 PM
::::Waits in anxious anticipation to see if every clock I've had hardwired by licensed electricians violated code:::::dizzy:

i'm just glad that this thread hasn't gotten out of control yet.

Kiril
06-26-2012, 08:47 PM
As long as you stand by your statement that a controller hard-wired to a disconnect box is a code violation, you got some 'splainin' to do :nono:

If the "disconnect" is an attempt to bypass/replace a GFCI requirement, then you are damn straight I stand by it. The code states NOTHING about a disconnect being an acceptable replacement for a GFCI requirement in the listed areas. As usually boots, you got nothing but hot air bullshiit with no references.

Here are mine. 2008 NEC Articles 210.8, 215.9, 725.127.

Where are your references boots?

muddywater
06-26-2012, 09:40 PM
Well I met the electrician over there today. We found the breaker which was actually tied to together with another breaker. I guess they shared the same neutral. So we are going to add a breaker dedicated to clock.

I guess my opinion is that GFI's are piece of $hit. The electrician told me they will trip with the least bit of moisture or somebody sneezes. I asked him if it was up to code to hardwire without a gfi. He said "no." I asked if a gfi breaker was better than gfi outlet. He said "not really." I asked what was the purpose of a gfi outlet? He said it was like kiril said "for personal protection." Basically so some dumbass doesn't electrecute themself by sticking a screw driver in the socket because that is the only way it is going to protect some one from harm.

Went on to say that they are ideal for situations near water... dock by lake, outlet in bathroom etc. He told me a guy got electrecuted messing with a non-gfi outlet some how at his dock while in the lake.

Then he said he thought the best solution was to hard wire and not to do a gfi. But hardwire it into a locked box. Is that up to code... no. Will an inspector ever see it in an enclosed locked box? No. Is it safer than a gfi outlet... probably because you cannot access it at all. You couldn't stick a screw driver in it if you wanted to.

I don't see this as a liability. Is it up to code?? no. But I don't have much respect for laws that don't really have a purpose for particular situations. Especially when they cause harm to private property.

So thanks kiril, wet boots and edhess. I learned a few things. Although I don't see an advantage to gfi outlets in a garage setting, I can definately see an advantage in a water setting. And I now see an advantage to hardwiring.

Kiril
06-26-2012, 09:58 PM
Is it safer than a gfi outlet... probably because you cannot access it at all. You couldn't stick a screw driver in it if you wanted to.

If it is back wired into a non-conductive locked box, maybe. The locks on those boxes are a joke. I can see some thief trying to rip the thing off and getting electrocuted.

I don't see this as a liability.

Should anything happen, locked box or not, and it is not up to code, you are liable. No judge will ever see it any other way.

Especially when they cause harm to private property.

Better the property be harmed than a human being, which is what the judge would say.

Wet_Boots
06-26-2012, 10:47 PM
If the "disconnect" is an attempt to bypass/replace a GFCI requirement, then you are damn straight I stand by it. The code states NOTHING about a disconnect being an acceptable replacement for a GFCI requirement in the listed areas. As usually boots, you got nothing but hot air bullshiit with no references.

Here are mine. 2008 NEC Articles 210.8, 215.9, 725.127.

Where are your references boots?You could not be less relevant than to supply the three NEC articles cited. The first two deal with receptacles. In the event of a hard-wired controller there is no receptacle, so provisions regarding receptacles are not relevant. Fail, and Fail. Now we move to 725.127

725.127 Wiring Methods on Supply Side of the Class 2 or Class 3 Power Source.
Conductors and equipment on the supply side of the power source shall be installed in accordance with the appropriate requirements of Chapters 1 through 4. Transformers or other devices supplied from electric light or power circuits shall be protected by an overcurrent device rated not over 20 amperes.

Where's the GFCI requirement? ~ looks like we got ourselves a great big trifecta of Fail.

Kiril
06-26-2012, 10:54 PM
You could not be less relevant than to supply the three NEC articles cited. The first two deal with receptacles.

So, if you hardwire around a receptacle in a branch circuit supplying receptacles, that exempts you from the code requiring GFCI protection? Care to provide the relevant exception that explicitly states this is allowed?

Now we move to 725.127

725.127 Wiring Methods on Supply Side of the Class 2 or Class 3 Power Source.
Conductors and equipment on the supply side of the power source shall be installed in accordance with the appropriate requirements of Chapters 1 through 4. Transformers or other devices supplied from electric light or power circuits shall be protected by an overcurrent device rated not over 20 amperes..

See bold. Guess what is in chapter 2. Keep looking boots.

muddywater
06-26-2012, 10:57 PM
If it is back wired into a non-conductive locked box, maybe. The locks on those boxes are a joke. I can see some thief trying to rip the thing off and getting electrocuted.



Should anything happen, locked box or not, and it is not up to code, you are liable. No judge will ever see it any other way.



Better the property be harmed than a human being, which is what the judge would say.

I understand that you need to think like this in this day and age. But that is why I have insurance. In this case, the electrician is making suggestions to the client and working directly for the client. I am an unpaid advisor looking out for the well being of my clinet, so I am not getting sued by anyone.

A theif is going to be able stand on a leg in court? Maybe in Cali!

I understand your mindset, but I think we are taking necessary precautions.

And I am not opposed to a thief trying to steal an irrigation clock and being electrecuted. How would he explain that to a judge?

Wet_Boots
06-26-2012, 11:01 PM
Kiril, It's up to you, and no one else but you, to pinpoint the passage that supports your claim. You have not done so. You can post the words that a receptacle is being bypassed by a hard-wired controller, but unfortunately for your incredibly feeble arguments, that is simply not the case.

Fail.

Kiril
06-26-2012, 11:02 PM
Just pointing out the potential problems MW. I don't really care how you or anyone else wants to wire a clock. Plug it, hard wire it, power it from the hot air coming from boots mouth. That said, don't bet on your insurance covering liability arising from your neglect to follow city/state codes.

Kiril
06-26-2012, 11:04 PM
Kiril, It's up to you, and no one else but you, to pinpoint the passage that supports your claim. You have not done so. You can post the words that a receptacle is being bypassed by a hard-wired controller, but unfortunately for your incredibly feeble arguments, that is simply not the case.

Fail.

ROFL .... no exception, heh boots. Keep on pissing in the wind, I am enjoying watching you get wet. :waving:

Wet_Boots
06-26-2012, 11:09 PM
Understand that I don't have to lift a finger - I simply state that the code does not forbid the hard-wiring of a controller powered by a class 2 transformer - you continue to post irrelevance after irrelevance - I note they are irrelevant, and it's back to you - and you got nothing but more Fail

muddywater
06-26-2012, 11:14 PM
Just pointing out the potential problems MW. I don't really care how you or anyone else wants to wire a clock. Plug it, hard wire it, power it from the hot air coming from boots mouth. That said, don't bet on your insurance covering liability arising from your neglect to follow city/state codes.

Just so you know, I appreciate your input and I understand your point... but damn I hate to see flowers we installed die especially in a high visability area with dedicated annual bed irrigation(12" sprays). Makes me look bad to have dead flowers. I wish there was another option up to code besides a gfi.

I asked the electrician if they had an outlet that would send me a text when the breaker tripped. Not available now, but I thought it was a pretty good idea! We talked about putting a horn and a flasher light, but I coudn't see it driving by on the road with it located on the back of the entrance.

Also I used your 4 corner method you mentioned in another thread using rain bird 5000 rotors with #4 nozzles to spray 40. Pretty neat.

Kiril
06-26-2012, 11:14 PM
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah , blah, blah

The code doesn't explicitly forbid hardwiring my chop saw, or any other piece of equipment or device of my choosing around a GFCI protected receptacle in my garage or outdoors either. Does that mean I am allowed to do it? According to you, I am. If that is all you have boots, you have nothing. Ramble on.

Kiril
06-26-2012, 11:20 PM
JI asked the electrician if they had an outlet that would send me a text when the breaker tripped.

It could be done, however it is quite likely not in the budget.

Wet_Boots
06-26-2012, 11:29 PM
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah , blah, blah

The code doesn't explicitly forbid hardwiring my chop saw, or any other piece of equipment or device of my choosing around a GFCI protected receptacle in my garage or outdoors either. Does that mean I am allowed to do it? According to you, I am. If that is all you have boots, you have nothing. Ramble on.chop saws are not controllers powered by class 2 transformers, and outdoor controllers powered by their internal class 2 power transformers are hard wired without bypassing anything - the only requirement you have pinpointed so far is that a class-2 transformer is to be protected by a 15 or 20 amp breaker, and we already got that, and no GFCI in sight


Fail

1idejim
06-26-2012, 11:34 PM
a dedicated sub panel mounted next to the controller would eleminate this issue altogether.

that way you could hardwire to a 15 - 20 amp GFCI breaker in a lockable enclosure providing security and access.
Posted via Mobile Device

Kiril
06-26-2012, 11:35 PM
chop saws are not controllers powered by class 2 transformers, and outdoor controllers powered by their internal class 2 power transformers are hard wired without bypassing anything - the only requirement you have pinpointed so far is that a class-2 transformer is to be protected by a 15 or 20 amp breaker, and we already got that, and no GFCI in sight


Fail

Blah, blah, blah, blah. The hard wired controller still has line voltage coming into it, no different than any other piece of equipment that has line voltage coming into it. It doesn't matter what is happen on the load side of the transformer as that is covered in a different section of the code.

Kiril
06-26-2012, 11:39 PM
a dedicated sub panel mounted next to the controller would eleminate this issue altogether.

that way you could hardwire to a 15 - 20 amp GFCI breaker in a lockable enclosure providing security and access.

This is true, however the likelihood of this happening is slim to none on any resi/comm controller.

Wet_Boots
06-26-2012, 11:39 PM
a dedicated sub panel mounted next to the controller would eleminate this issue altogether.

that way you could hardwire to a 15 - 20 amp GFCI breaker in a lockable enclosure providing security and access.
Posted via Mobile DeviceWe still are not seeing the requirement that a GFCI is called for. Kiril can't find it, and is reduced to ineffectual blustering.

Kiril
06-26-2012, 11:42 PM
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

So, if you hardwire around a receptacle in a branch circuit supplying receptacles, that exempts you from the code requiring GFCI protection? Care to provide the relevant exception that explicitly states this is allowed?

Answer the question or STFU boots.

muddywater
06-26-2012, 11:44 PM
a dedicated sub panel mounted next to the controller would eleminate this issue altogether.

that way you could hardwire to a 15 - 20 amp GFCI breaker in a lockable enclosure providing security and access.
Posted via Mobile Device

Electrician advised me that gfci breaker is not as reliable as a normal breaker. I have no experience with it so I don't know either way.

Kiril
06-26-2012, 11:47 PM
Electrician advised me that gfci breaker is not as reliable as a normal breaker. I have no experience with it so I don't know either way.

This is true, and it is also true for AFCI breakers. Both are more prone to nuisance tripping than a normal breaker, however it has been my experience that GFCI receptacles are more prone to nuisance tripping than the breakers.

Wet_Boots
06-26-2012, 11:48 PM
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.725.1 Scope.
This article covers remote-control, signaling,and power-limited circuits that are not an integral part of a device or appliance. :waving:

(fail)

Kiril
06-27-2012, 12:00 AM
You were the one rambling on about class 2 transformers being exempt from GFCI protection in listed areas, using thermostats and door bells as your example. Thermostats and door bells are on class 2 circuits, not line voltage .... so FAIL!

The section of the code I posted applies to supplying power to those transformers, you know, those transformers you claim are exempt, like thermostats and door bells, yet it quite clearly states must comply with chapters 1-4. Is the code reference relevant? Yes, given your most inappropriate examples.

Further, how does this exempt hard wiring a device or equipment around a GFCI protected receptacle, integral transformer or not?

Keep looking boots.

Wet_Boots
06-27-2012, 12:11 AM
There appears to be more in the code than you are able to find. Certainly the three articles you referenced have no application to a hard-wired outdoor controller powered entirely by an internal class-2 transformer.

And you continue with the statements about bypassing a receptacle. What receptacle?


fail

Kiril
06-27-2012, 12:35 AM
There appears to be more in the code than you are able to find. Certainly the three articles you referenced have no application to a hard-wired outdoor controller powered entirely by an internal class-2 transformer.

Bullshit. Any equipment/device attach to a branch circuit serving receptacles in the listed areas, unless otherwise noted, is covered. The code does not have to list every possible scenario for the intent to be clear. This is why it only lists exceptions for specific equipment to the requirement.

And you continue with the statements about bypassing a receptacle. What receptacle?

Where are you pulling power from boots? An outdoor receptacle maybe .... or how about a garage receptacle? Have you never hard wired hard wired a controller in the field?

Wet_Boots
06-27-2012, 09:55 AM
If the code allows hard-wired class-2 control transformers on non-GFCI circuits, and clearly it does, then show's over, and your objections add up to nothing.

Kiril
06-27-2012, 10:08 AM
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Despite my repeated requests for you to provide a relevant section of the code that allows for hard wiring devices/equipment around GFCI protection, you have produce nothing. The codes intent is to provide personnel protection in the listed areas on branch circuits that supply receptacles. Given 99% of resi/comm irrigation controllers are likely installed in these listed areas on the restricted branch circuits, your position holds absolutely no water. I am done wasting my time with this idiotic discussion. Take your ridiculous argument to an electrical forum and see how far you get.

Wet_Boots
06-27-2012, 10:15 AM
You seem to have some problem with logic. One does not prove a negative. One fails to prove a positive. You make the positive statement that a hard-wired controller is a code violation. That allows you the opportunity to prove your statement by locating and sharing the specific article that details this supposed violation. You have posted any number of article numbers that do not apply. Meanwhile, we have a hundred million or so class-2 transformers that are hard-wired into circuits that are not GFCI-protected.

Physical reality versus your as-yet-unfounded-in-the-code objections.

It's so hard to select a winner {/snark}

Mike Leary
06-27-2012, 02:23 PM
It's so hard to select a winner {/snark}

The spelling Nazi must know: is that "winner" or "whiner"? :dizzy:

Wet_Boots
06-27-2012, 03:39 PM
The spelling Nazi must know: is that "winner" or "whiner"? :dizzy:neither

aNddW2xmZp8

1idejim
06-28-2012, 06:06 PM
WHO CARES ABOUT GFCI NOW?

your opinions right, wrong or indifferent seem pale.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/28/12459803-resort-11-year-old-girl-electrocuted-at-mini-golf-course-in-florida

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/deputies-investigating-death-11-year-old-girl-reso/nPg3L/

muddywater
06-28-2012, 08:13 PM
WHO CARES ABOUT GFCI NOW?

your opinions right, wrong or indifferent seem pale.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/28/12459803-resort-11-year-old-girl-electrocuted-at-mini-golf-course-in-florida

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/deputies-investigating-death-11-year-old-girl-reso/nPg3L/

Gfi has there place near water, but they have no business in a covered garage.
Posted via Mobile Device

1idejim
06-28-2012, 09:31 PM
Gfi has there place near water, but they have no business in a covered garage.
Posted via Mobile Device

based on what facts?

Mikegyver
10-16-2013, 10:26 PM
I can't believe how bad I used to be at repair work. I've come a long way thanks to y'all.

jbell36
10-16-2013, 11:49 PM
damn, this got heated...

Mikegyver
10-17-2013, 06:57 AM
damn, this got heated...
No kidding.

Wet_Boots
10-17-2013, 11:06 AM
at least I got to hear the Oscar Meyer song again :)

1idejim
10-17-2013, 12:45 PM
at least I got to hear the Oscar Meyer song again :)

http://www.youtube.com/embed/MtN1YnoL46Q?autoplay=1
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Stillwater
10-17-2013, 01:20 PM
Cool arguements about electrical things.. I'm enjoying this.....
Posted via Mobile Device

1idejim
10-17-2013, 01:24 PM
Cool arguements about electrical things.. I'm enjoying this.....
Posted via Mobile Device

Funny thing is that muddy water and I took this offline and have become pretty good friends in spite of our differences of opinion.
Posted via Mobile Device

Stillwater
10-17-2013, 02:47 PM
Funny thing is that muddy water and I took this offline and have become pretty good friends in spite of our differences of opinion.
Posted via Mobile Device


Well that's good that your now seeing things "eye" to "eye"
Posted via Mobile Device

1idejim
10-17-2013, 04:58 PM
Well that's good that your now seeing things "eye" to "eye"
Posted via Mobile Device

i always seem to be out numbered though.

this is for you Boots



/MtN1YnoL46Q

Wet_Boots
10-17-2013, 05:18 PM
I already got grapes.

Stillwater
10-17-2013, 08:00 PM
I just finnished reading all 17 pages, now my hair hurts.
Posted via Mobile Device

Wet_Boots
10-17-2013, 08:50 PM
I just finnished reading all 17 pages, now my hair hurts.
Posted via Mobile DeviceYou have my sincere sympathies :) ~ I rather lack the political skill to let the opposing side down easy :p

1idejim
10-17-2013, 08:55 PM
I just finnished reading all 17 pages, now my hair hurts.
Posted via Mobile Device

Before you read the entire thread in one sitting, did you read and sign the Lawnsite waiver exempting all thread posters from legal responsabities stemming from injuries that the reader may suffer.

Your hair will quit hurting when I falls out Stillwater
Posted via Mobile Device

Wet_Boots
10-17-2013, 09:05 PM
You can adjust your user settings to display more posts per page - at 20 posts per page, I only have nine pages to peruse, so it's only half as stupid :)

1idejim
10-17-2013, 09:31 PM
You can adjust your user settings to display more posts per page - at 20 posts per page, I only have nine pages to peruse, so it's only half as stupid :)

That's how I look at it :)
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