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landscapetastic
06-20-2012, 06:30 AM
Well I did mulch for a customer last week. The beds were prepared first, with weeding and weed killer. Today the customer complains that there are small weeds coming through the mulch. Well I said I did my best that I could. And the rest is nature. I never said that I could back everything I do to prevent
weeds 100%. The customer says how dare you blame nature. She says that I need to weed again. I said that you refused to put down the paper, which actually I had seen results with in other jobs.

What do you guys do in this sitution.?

Smallaxe
06-20-2012, 09:13 AM
I would apologize and do it correctly... paper under mulch is just wrong and having weeds appear w/in a week is just negligence... good luck... :)

Gmgbo
06-20-2012, 11:32 AM
I spray a week before, let everything die before you pull it

clydebusa
06-20-2012, 11:54 AM
I spray a week before, let everything die before you pull it

I agree and I would go spot spray now. When giving a price to do bed weeding, I alway figure in a couple trips back to spray or pick again.

jvanvliet
06-20-2012, 12:29 PM
pre-emergent; no bitching about weeds for 4-6 months. Go spot spray her weeds.

32vld
06-20-2012, 12:29 PM
Yes how long did you wait after you weeded before you put the mulch down to make sure the weeds gone?

And where did you get that mulch from?

The town I live in and the next town over have a yard waste recycling program. Give out free mulch and compost. I have only gone to my towns WR center for a small amount. Word is that the town/workers/or both shortcut their process and you tend to get weeds.

Patriot Services
06-20-2012, 12:56 PM
Same question I had. Is this quality mulch or Crap Double Grind from the city? If it's the latter you screwed up big time.:usflag:

Mark Oomkes
06-20-2012, 01:58 PM
Apparently you guys have never run into marestail? Canadian thistle?

Spraying and letting it sit for a week will do nothing. Pre-emergent will not do anything.

What is this paper you speak of? Weed barrier?

easy-lift guy
06-20-2012, 02:27 PM
Apparently you guys have never run into marestail? Canadian thistle?

Spraying and letting it sit for a week will do nothing. Pre-emergent will not do anything.

What is this paper you speak of? Weed barrier?

I did not know that the weeds coming up thru the mulch were Marestail? or Canadian thistle?. I believe the paper was referring to weed barrier material.
easy-lift guy

Mark Oomkes
06-20-2012, 02:39 PM
I did not know that the weeds coming up thru the mulch were Marestail? or Canadian thistle?. I believe the paper was referring to weed barrier material.
easy-lift guy

I don't know if they were. I was using 2 examples of weeds that can be sprayed, allowed to die, mulched and will come back.

In addition, an application of Snapshot or Preen will not come close to preventing their return.

easy-lift guy
06-20-2012, 02:45 PM
Mark, Other than digging out by shovel, what means of control is there for this type of material?
easy-lift guy

Smallaxe
06-20-2012, 03:57 PM
The idea of anything coming back in a week means that there were too many shortcuts involved...

another example is quackgrass... if that stuff isn't killed off completely, down to the last rhizome... it is networked throughout all the fresh mulch before you can say, "Business Killer"...

Mark Oomkes
06-20-2012, 04:30 PM
Mark, Other than digging out by shovel, what means of control is there for this type of material?
easy-lift guy

Let me clarify, the marestail or horsetail I am referring to is equisetum arvense for which there is little to no real control except multiple applications of herbicides. Casoron\Dyclomec\Barrier will work if applied heavily, but if there are non-woody plants present, this pre-m is out the window.

Glyphosate with 2,4D?

kirk1701
06-20-2012, 04:31 PM
Not to change the subject guys but its along the same topic here.

I put the landscaping paper down under my mulchbed I did a couple years back, against some of you guys advice then not to.

It's worked out pretty well but never did understand why not?

Patriot Services
06-20-2012, 05:06 PM
Not to change the subject guys but its along the same topic here.

I put the landscaping paper down under my mulchbed I did a couple years back, against some of you guys advice then not to.

It's worked out pretty well but never did understand why not?

Paper or fabric does nothing for the seeds that naturally blow in and land on the mulch. Post when it goes down and a pre on the mulch. Same idea for rocks.
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jvanvliet
06-20-2012, 05:48 PM
canadian thistle is not a problem here. Marestail can be controlled with Atrazine; best applied when just sprouting. Repeat application necesary as they emerge... don't let them go to seed!

Patriot Services
06-20-2012, 05:56 PM
Maybe I missed something. Where did the OP state he had Horseazz anything growing?
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jvanvliet
06-20-2012, 06:03 PM
Dunno... Oomke brought it up.

Kartanimal29
06-20-2012, 09:01 PM
Put some Preen down and forget it, the best stuff out there.

Patriot Services
06-20-2012, 09:03 PM
Put some Preen down and forget it, the best stuff out there.

Pro's with a license use Snapshot or other pro label product. Preen is homeowner pre~em and does nothing for a weed that has already germinated.
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kirk1701
06-20-2012, 11:02 PM
Pro's with a license use Snapshot or other pro label product. Preen is homeowner pre~em and does nothing for a weed that has already germinated.
Posted via Mobile Device

I used Preem in the garden and very pleased

That is pleased with part and unsatisfied in another part because it washed under the beans before they were up and rotted the seed :laugh:

Next year I'll plant the beans two weeks ahead of the tomato's :drinkup:

Smallaxe
06-21-2012, 06:55 AM
Not to change the subject guys but its along the same topic here.

I put the landscaping paper down under my mulchbed I did a couple years back, against some of you guys advice then not to.

It's worked out pretty well but never did understand why not?

Usually the fabric silts up and holds water like plastic sheets under the mulch and keeps the water out of the soil... when there is any kind of slope the mulch slides down the slippery fabric slope and becomes exposed... spraying is not always the simplest thing in the world once the beds start growing like crazy, so when weeds appear they should just be pulled, however when they root through the fabric they do not pull...

Wood mulch rotting into the surface of the soil, creating its own hydrophobic barrier that pushes water to the plants around it works just fine w/out the hassle... freshen up the look each Spring with some new stuff and you're good to go...

None of these issues have affected you at all???

Mark Oomkes
06-21-2012, 07:24 AM
having weeds appear w/in a week is just negligence... good luck... :)

let everything die before you pull it

pre-emergent; no bitching about weeds for 4-6 months. Go spot spray her weeds.

Yes how long did you wait after you weeded before you put the mulch down to make sure the weeds gone?


The idea of anything coming back in a week means that there were too many shortcuts involved...

another example is quackgrass... if that stuff isn't killed off completely, down to the last rhizome... it is networked throughout all the fresh mulch before you can say, "Business Killer"...

Maybe I missed something. Where did the OP state he had Horseazz anything growing?
Posted via Mobile Device

Dunno... Oomke brought it up.

Nobody said there was. Just several generalizations that if the OP had done his job properly (which I have no idea if he did or didn't) that he should NEVER see a weed as well as applying a pre-m would completely eliminate weeds for 4-6 months.

I too that generalization and pointed out 2 types of weeds that would make this generalization false and wrong. If the OP is dealing with these types of weeds, it is highly likely that they returned in a week. For that matter, Roundup\glyphosate won't even hardly brown horsetail in a week's time.

Kiril
06-21-2012, 08:33 AM
An appropriate mulch material, applied at the appropriate depth, will keep out 95% of your weeds. No geotextile and no preem required.

kirk1701
06-21-2012, 12:23 PM
Usually the fabric silts up and holds water like plastic sheets under the mulch and keeps the water out of the soil... when there is any kind of slope the mulch slides down the slippery fabric slope and becomes exposed... spraying is not always the simplest thing in the world once the beds start growing like crazy, so when weeds appear they should just be pulled, however when they root through the fabric they do not pull...

Wood mulch rotting into the surface of the soil, creating its own hydrophobic barrier that pushes water to the plants around it works just fine w/out the hassle... freshen up the look each Spring with some new stuff and you're good to go...

None of these issues have affected you at all???

Yu know Smallaxe I'm starting to notice that, my Oak tree's for the last two years in front have started looking like the leaves are drying up mid summer?

Early this spring I pulled back a lot of the landscaping paper from around the tree's but I don't think it was enough. I'm still seeing one tree that looks like the leaves are curling up so I left the hose on around the bottom last night for about 4 hours.

Should I pull it all up? I defiantly don't want to loose these tree's hell I had enough problems with tree's :laugh:

Also, it's not mulch, it's pine bark and I freshened up this spring and last spring also, didn't take any out. Could I have that stuff around the bottom to thick smothering the roots?

phasthound
06-21-2012, 01:24 PM
Well I did mulch for a customer last week. The beds were prepared first, with weeding and weed killer. Today the customer complains that there are small weeds coming through the mulch. Well I said I did my best that I could. And the rest is nature. I never said that I could back everything I do to prevent
weeds 100%. The customer says how dare you blame nature. She says that I need to weed again. I said that you refused to put down the paper, which actually I had seen results with in other jobs.

What do you guys do in this sitution.?

I would find some training in customer relations. Not only is she rightfully upset about your work and your response :nono:, she is now telling everyone she knows not to hire you. And I don't blame her.

Dr.NewEarth
06-21-2012, 03:36 PM
Kiril is the only one I can see, who mentions the depth of the mulch. How deep was the mulch you installed?

I recommend bark mulch be three inches deep.

Also, can you post a picture of the weeds?

Smallaxe
06-22-2012, 07:10 AM
Even w/out any mulch whatsoever,,, weeds appearing within a week doesn't occur in my garden maintenance with the bare soils...
My point is that the so-called "Prep", was no prep at all... :)

treedoc1
06-23-2012, 10:39 AM
You should be happy to go back and spot spray weeds for "x" dollars if it wasn't included in the original proposal.
Do nothing for free, but do exactly the work stated when you sold the job.
Go backs will kill your business, change orders and upsells will add to your profitability.
Always offer a solution and price it accordingly. A free service has exactly that value...$0.00.

Patriot Services
06-23-2012, 01:06 PM
You should be happy to go back and spot spray weeds for "x" dollars if it wasn't included in the original proposal.
Do nothing for free, but do exactly the work stated when you sold the job.
Go backs will kill your business, change orders and upsells will add to your profitability.
Always offer a solution and price it accordingly. A free service has exactly that value...$0.00.

Sorry, but you come across as big a noob as the OP. He stated he "prepped" the beds by removal AND weedkiller. Obviously he did it wrong. Not enough removal, not enough chemical and not enough mulch would be my guess. Weeds coming up after only a week is unacceptable. So is giving a lame excuse for corner cutting on his part. By all means continue doing business this way. It will guarantee your business demise and give someone else a chance to profit by fixing your rookie mistakes.:usflag:

phasthound
06-23-2012, 06:25 PM
You should be happy to go back and spot spray weeds for "x" dollars if it wasn't included in the original proposal.
Do nothing for free, but do exactly the work stated when you sold the job.
Go backs will kill your business, change orders and upsells will add to your profitability.
Always offer a solution and price it accordingly. A free service has exactly that value...$0.00.

How much value does poor service have? Or an even better question is: how much does poor service cost you as a businessperson?

Think Green
06-23-2012, 06:50 PM
I guess you northern guys don't have bed issues with spurge, chamberbitter, purslane, and sedges.
you can rape a bed down to the soil, apply 4 inches of mulch and within a week have seed pop up from chamberbitter, spurge and sedge. It must be my hot temps, but come on lets be real. Sometimes tilling isn't a reality in densly planted beds even with line trimmer cultivator's and the mantis.
As far as the customer, yes go back and reapply some gly and kill the weeds before they reseed. As I said above, if you don't get some of these weeds before they seed drop, then the irrigated beds will only reoccur and cost you more trips. Geotextiles is good for a while until seeds grow on top of the mulch layers. I guess I don't understand the comment of paper!!!! You mean applying newspaper as a base layer to keep out weeds?? HMMM! Never did this other than to provide a moisture barrier for my garden and to solarize a pathway. Other than that, the paper will break down and serve no purpose.

Duekster
06-23-2012, 07:06 PM
I guess you northern guys don't have bed issues with spurge, chamberbitter, purslane, and sedges.
you can rape a bed down to the soil, apply 4 inches of mulch and within a week have seed pop up from chamberbitter, spurge and sedge. It must be my hot temps, but come on lets be real. Sometimes tilling isn't a reality in densly planted beds even with line trimmer cultivator's and the mantis.
As far as the customer, yes go back and reapply some gly and kill the weeds before they reseed. As I said above, if you don't get some of these weeds before they seed drop, then the irrigated beds will only reoccur and cost you more trips. Geotextiles is good for a while until seeds grow on top of the mulch layers. I guess I don't understand the comment of paper!!!! You mean applying newspaper as a base layer to keep out weeds?? HMMM! Never did this other than to provide a moisture barrier for my garden and to solarize a pathway. Other than that, the paper will break down and serve no purpose.

The news paper will act as a weed block for a while. It does break down but by then the mulch is settled.

Personally, I do not like any weed block and would rather have the mulch in contact with the soil, and breaking down and improving the soil. Pre-em and Gly will help but laying down 3 to 4" of mulch is key. I do not like turning it, I would rather mulch over. The exception being annual beds. Again I have few weed problems in those and we hand pull them on full service accounts as it is no big deal in a tilled bed to pull weeds.

Smallaxe
06-24-2012, 08:38 AM
Yu know Smallaxe I'm starting to notice that, my Oak tree's for the last two years in front have started looking like the leaves are drying up mid summer?

Early this spring I pulled back a lot of the landscaping paper from around the tree's but I don't think it was enough. I'm still seeing one tree that looks like the leaves are curling up so I left the hose on around the bottom last night for about 4 hours.

Should I pull it all up? I defiantly don't want to loose these tree's hell I had enough problems with tree's :laugh:

Also, it's not mulch, it's pine bark and I freshened up this spring and last spring also, didn't take any out. Could I have that stuff around the bottom to thick smothering the roots?

I don't think pine bark mulch would ever smother roots, on it's own... your fabric over the top of the tree roots could be seriously drying out the rootzone of the trees however... Here again is another good place to look at the soil and assess its moisture availability... :)

Smallaxe
06-24-2012, 08:49 AM
I guess you northern guys don't have bed issues with spurge, chamberbitter, purslane, and sedges.
you can rape a bed down to the soil, apply 4 inches of mulch and within a week have seed pop up from chamberbitter, spurge and sedge. It must be my hot temps, but come on lets be real. Sometimes tilling isn't a reality in densly planted beds even with line trimmer cultivator's and the mantis.
As far as the customer, yes go back and reapply some gly and kill the weeds before they reseed. As I said above, if you don't get some of these weeds before they seed drop, then the irrigated beds will only reoccur and cost you more trips. Geotextiles is good for a while until seeds grow on top of the mulch layers. I guess I don't understand the comment of paper!!!! You mean applying newspaper as a base layer to keep out weeds?? HMMM! Never did this other than to provide a moisture barrier for my garden and to solarize a pathway. Other than that, the paper will break down and serve no purpose.

No, but as I mentioned we have quackgrass and a few more like it... is it possible for you to actually dispose of your spurge, before rushing to put down the mulch???

Think Green
06-24-2012, 09:31 AM
Axe,
LOL!!--I wish it were that easy as the spurge is similar to Poa annua. These little weeds produce enough seeds........that are hard to be seen by the visible eye. They are so lightly weighted, that falling into crevices the width of a piece of paper, they will sprout in 5 days with little moisture.
This all reminds me of another thread that we could almost prove that mulches is contaminated with seed matter. It is almost like you can completely clean out a bed to be bare soil with a hoe or mechanical effort, lay the mulch at 4 inches and then in a week see more weeds emerge. Crazy!!

kirk1701
06-24-2012, 10:01 AM
The news paper will act as a weed block for a while. It does break down but by then the mulch is settled.

Personally, I do not like any weed block and would rather have the mulch in contact with the soil, and breaking down and improving the soil. Pre-em and Gly will help but laying down 3 to 4" of mulch is key. I do not like turning it, I would rather mulch over. The exception being annual beds. Again I have few weed problems in those and we hand pull them on full service accounts as it is no big deal in a tilled bed to pull weeds.

Duekster I have a question
I have about 6" of pine bark in mine, freshened up a couple times each sping since 2010 when I put in the landscaping now.

I didn't remove any and I took up some of the weed block around my big oak tree's because of fear water wasn't getting to them.

If not lack of water then could the 6" of bark be smothering the roots?

What Pre-em you recomend because more of the weed block is coming up and thats the route I'm going next season.

kirk1701
06-24-2012, 10:04 AM
I don't think pine bark mulch would ever smother roots, on it's own... your fabric over the top of the tree roots could be seriously drying out the rootzone of the trees however... Here again is another good place to look at the soil and assess its moisture availability... :)

I should had read one more post down, thansk smallaxe

Like I said, more is coming up this fall, I don't want to move it now and ruin the fresh look I just put in but I took enough up already around the tree's.

Watering around this "FARM" has become a full time job without watering 100 year old oak tree's too :laugh:

Duekster
06-24-2012, 10:15 AM
Duekster I have a question
I have about 6" of pine bark in mine, freshened up a couple times each sping since 2010 when I put in the landscaping now.

I didn't remove any and I took up some of the weed block around my big oak tree's because of fear water wasn't getting to them.

If not lack of water then could the 6" of bark be smothering the roots?

What Pre-em you recomend because more of the weed block is coming up and thats the route I'm going next season.

There are concerns about putting a lot of material on tree roots. Some oaks are more sensitive than others. I am more concerned about the root flare and trunk of the tree being covered. Have 0" next to the truck and taper out up to 5" on newly planted trees. 0" at the to 3" around the tree is you must. I just keep the grass off my trunk and keep a bare ring 24" or less around the trunk of my trees.





I do not use pine bark mulch. IMHO, they do not have the break down well, ammend the soil. Native Hardwood mulch is best. Cedar is second best. I also like Bois D' Arc Mulch very much as it is the hardest native tree around here and considered a scrub tree.


I do not use a Pre-Em on Beds for the most part. If it is a new bed with large shrubs it can be helpful the first season or two.

kirk1701
06-24-2012, 12:11 PM
There are concerns about putting a lot of material on tree roots. Some oaks are more sensitive than others. I am more concerned about the root flare and trunk of the tree being covered. Have 0" next to the truck and taper out up to 5" on newly planted trees. 0" at the to 3" around the tree is you must. I just keep the grass off my trunk and keep a bare ring 24" or less around the trunk of my trees.





I do not use pine bark mulch. IMHO, they do not have the break down well, ammend the soil. Native Hardwood mulch is best. Cedar is second best. I also like Bois D' Arc Mulch very much as it is the hardest native tree around here and considered a scrub tree.


I do not use a Pre-Em on Beds for the most part. If it is a new bed with large shrubs it can be helpful the first season or two.

Sorry for getting off topic here and have more questions pertaining to the tree's so cary on and I'll start another thread.