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4 seasons lawn&land
06-21-2012, 07:09 PM
I have a patio to redo (I didnt do it the first time) and there is no base. Im worried about pool mechanical while digging out a foot for a good base. Any advice?

big daddy b
06-21-2012, 07:11 PM
Yeah, don't hit anything.

Duekster
06-21-2012, 07:13 PM
Hand dig and do not jump on the shovel

4 seasons lawn&land
06-21-2012, 07:20 PM
this stuff is within a foot down?

DVS Hardscaper
06-21-2012, 07:59 PM
this stuff is within a foot down?


its hard to say. usually at least 12-inches. could be more. could be less. I've seen barely 1/2 a foot, and I've seen deeper. never know.
the drain line is at level with the bottom of the pool. DEEP.

all of the pipes are merely pvc.

so you break a pipe. No biggie. Shut the pump(s) off (some pools have 2 pumps, one is for the cleaner). And go to your industrial plumbing supply house (not Home Depot or Lowes) and buy a repair coupler and some piple and put it back together. Piece of cake.


,

4 seasons lawn&land
06-21-2012, 08:11 PM
thanks. why no HD/Lowes? They are actually cheaper on 4" perf pipe than the half dozen industrial supply places around here.

Duekster
06-21-2012, 08:25 PM
Slip Fix for the win.

Main thing is to dig carefully. Water it down do is is not bone dry but also no mud either. Push gently with the foot on the shovel.

DVS Hardscaper
06-21-2012, 08:36 PM
thanks. why no HD/Lowes? They are actually cheaper on 4" perf pipe than the half dozen industrial supply places around here.


Pools are NOT plumbed with "4" perf pipe", goober :hammerhead:

They are plumbed with schedule 40 PVC.

If you break a pipe, you need repair couplers.

The box stores do not sell REPAIR COUPLERS. At least not that I've seen.



.

4 seasons lawn&land
06-21-2012, 09:07 PM
Pools are NOT plumbed with "4" perf pipe", goober :hammerhead:

They are plumbed with schedule 40 PVC.

If you break a pipe, you need repair couplers.

The box stores do not sell REPAIR COUPLERS. At least not that I've seen.



.


No ****. Im talking about general pricing but you knew that

DVS Hardscaper
06-21-2012, 09:20 PM
No ****. Im talking about general pricing but you knew that

LOL

I'm talking about commercial products.

Does Home Depot sell Snap Edge? And Techni Seal poly sand?


:weightlifter:

4 seasons lawn&land
06-21-2012, 10:37 PM
So Sq Ft costs have been beat to death but Ive never really paid attention to them until taking a look just now and Im shocked. How are people affording 15-25 a sq ft? And where is my pricing going wrong?

2000 sq ft

Pavers- reuse old pavers

crusher run and sand 100 tons-2000 with deliv

geo textile-600

poly sand-600

edging/spikes-?

5 days labor with 2 guys-$7500

that leaves $23000 for paver and edging?

alldayrj
06-21-2012, 10:46 PM
what are you paying your guys/hr? or is that with your profit/overhead?

4 seasons lawn&land
06-21-2012, 10:49 PM
Thats both profit/ overhead 1500 a day for 2 guys

alldayrj
06-21-2012, 10:57 PM
I like the sound of that.

so whats your total price on the job? are you saying 15/sf is low on a job that size?
what part of ny are you in? problem down here on the island is the lawn mowing guys are putting down pavers for 8/sf when the brick costs 3/sf!!! its insane.

4 seasons lawn&land
06-21-2012, 11:04 PM
Im still way WAY lower than the numbers I see on here. Im at 11 k without pavers when average here is 40000 with pavers. So if my figure included the pavers Id be less than half what most guys are getting.

alldayrj
06-21-2012, 11:21 PM
I guess thats where time+material pricing trumps square footage pricing. more competitive bids. however, some jobs done on square footage can make tons of cash. aka if the guy who said 40k got the job. i've never seen pavers put down at 25/sf, or even 20 though. if you get 15 around here youre doing great.

your price works out to 5.5 for labor and materials, without brick. i think thats a little low. I do paver relays (pull old pavers, clean, add sand and re lay) for 3 to 4 a SF. once a customer bought all materials and just wanted me to install, I did that for 5/sf.

stebs
06-22-2012, 01:39 AM
all of the pipes are merely pvc.

so you break a pipe. No biggie. Shut the pump(s) off (some pools have 2 pumps, one is for the cleaner). And go to your industrial plumbing supply house (not Home Depot or Lowes) and buy a repair coupler and some piple and put it back together. Piece of cake.


,

And for the goodness sakes, make sure you use pressure fittings and not that DWV crap! (you shake your head but thats the only type of fittings that my local hardware store carries!)

SVA_Concrete
06-22-2012, 05:40 AM
You are going to pull 2000sf of pavers, excavate, install stone, compact, lay 2000sf, cut edges, compact and sweep sand.

All in 5 days with 2 guys???!!!
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BradLewisLawnCare
06-22-2012, 07:20 AM
You are going to pull 2000sf of pavers, excavate, install stone, compact, lay 2000sf, cut edges, compact and sweep sand.

All in 5 days with 2 guys???!!!
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Sounds like that hgtv show for house flippers. all in 5 days with a budget of just $xxx...

AztlanLC
06-22-2012, 07:34 AM
Time also sounds low to me an average 2 man crew can install 100-170 sqf. Of pavers a day including excavation and base materil 6" depending on soil condition, access and many other things.

DVS Hardscaper
06-22-2012, 12:59 PM
And for the goodness sakes, make sure you use pressure fittings and not that DWV crap! (you shake your head but thats the only type of fittings that my local hardware store carries!)

Dude, we're talking a quick repair job, in the event a pipe would get broken. Cut out the broken. Install new pipe . 6 minute task.
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DVS Hardscaper
06-22-2012, 01:06 PM
With 3 guys we install no less than 500 sf in one 8 hr day. Once in a while they may hit 550 to 600 sf.

This is for patios an big areas. Walks take much longer.

So if you're doing 2000 sf, right there is 4 days of dropping pavers in place.

Plus 1/2 a day for brushing in sand. In addition to the aforementioned 4 days.

Plus about a day for cutting pavers (border, turns, obsticals, etc)

So right there you have a min of 5 days tied up just in handling of the pavers.

Without seeing the layout I'm gonna say you have 2 days just in installing and compacting the aggregate base. Not including excavation.

You're taking up 2000 sf of existing pavers on the ground? Whoo-we that's alotta work. Taking up the pavers, CLEANING THE SAND OFF OF THEM. Pallatizing, and wrapping with shrunk wrap so they don't spill all over the yard is an easy additional 8 hrs.

So far we're at 8 days and we haven't even factored in excavating, turf restoration, and daily clean up.

Your experience level? Please tell us about that. Pictures of past jobs would be nice to see :)

.
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Duekster
06-22-2012, 01:13 PM
I am no expert but it does sound like the labor time is grossly under estimated.

DVS Hardscaper
06-22-2012, 01:19 PM
The best way to calculate is job is to break each task down. Itemized format.

1. Loading the truck at yard
2. Unloading at site
3. Drive time to and for per employee per hr.
4. Gate/fence removal to access back yard
5. Excavation (some jobs require an easy 2 hrs of simply measuring and laying out)
6. Aggregate installation and compaction
7. Bedding sand installation
8. Paver installation
9. Cutting pavers
10. Sanding paver joints
11. Burial of down spouts and sump pump lines
12. Daily clean up. This is something many contractors neglect. If it rained the night before, you could have 1 guy easily spend 60 to 90 minutes shoveling and brooding mud.
13. Re-grading and seeding
14. Loading trash. A 2000 sf patio will accumulate alotta McDonalds bags.
15. Loading all tools onto the truck. (we remove tools and machinery each day as they are no longer needed at the site)

.
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DVS Hardscaper
06-22-2012, 01:34 PM
We're doing a 66 sf patio as I type.

$2200.00

Yes sixty six square feet.

Two thousand two hundred dollars


.
Posted via Mobile Device

Duekster
06-22-2012, 01:43 PM
The best way to calculate is job is to break each task down. Itemized format.

1. Loading the truck at yard
2. Unloading at site
3. Drive time to and for per employee per hr.
4. Gate/fence removal to access back yard
5. Excavation (some jobs require an easy 2 hrs of simply measuring and laying out)
6. Aggregate installation and compaction
7. Bedding sand installation
8. Paver installation
9. Cutting pavers
10. Sanding paver joints
11. Burial of down spouts and sump pump lines
12. Daily clean up. This is something many contractors neglect. If it rained the night before, you could have 1 guy easily spend 60 to 90 minutes shoveling and brooding mud.
13. Re-grading and seeding
14. Loading trash. A 2000 sf patio will accumulate alotta McDonalds bags.
15. Loading all tools onto the truck. (we remove tools and machinery each day as they are no longer needed at the site)

.
Posted via Mobile Device

Every job needs to be broken down and bid this way. There are no magic formulas except the one that will eventually lead to bankruptcy.

You are right, if the job takes multiple days, you have to allow for clean up and organizing the site at the end of the day too.

DVS Hardscaper
06-22-2012, 01:45 PM
We have lead walks that are easily $25 to $30 per sf.

It costs the same to deliver 2 pallets of pavers as it does 10 pallets.

Usually the bigger the job - the less per sf cost.
The smaller the job - the more per sf costs,

A rancher house may average $135 / sf to build.
But a 2 story home may average $108 / sf to build. Because either home will have a basement and roof. All you're doing is adding a floor in the middle. Same roof same basement.

Same scenario goes for paver installation. Your mobilization costs and delivery costs are the same, regardless of size. It still costs the same to bury 1 down spout on a 400 sf patio as it does to bury 1 down spout on a 2000 sf patio.
.
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4 seasons lawn&land
06-22-2012, 03:25 PM
All the replies are appreciated! It must be the labor that Im going astray on.I have a history of doing that... I dont know if I want this job. I just dont like pavers and I think 2 weeks of pavers at one residence might cause me to drown myself in the pool. If I could sell her on flagstone Id be a happy camper. The access is easy. There is no fence around the pool. The excavation will be hindered by the porch being overhead of half of it, plus going easy around the pool. there are 6 or 7 porch pillars to work around. 2 sets of stairs. and the pool deck. I dont have to go up to pool edge. One big plus is they did not sand the joints at all so the pavers are clean.

DVS Hardscaper
06-22-2012, 05:10 PM
2,000 SF is a long time at the job.

did you include the cost of renting this for a month?

Birchwood
06-22-2012, 08:02 PM
2,000 SF is a long time at the job.

did you include the cost of renting this for a month?


Does any one rent these for there jobs? I looked into it a few weeks ago $165 a week, not bad. Better than running to the gas station.

I also thought of putting one in an enclosed trailer for the job site.


$20 plus per sf on small entry walks is the only way to go, other wise you will loose money.

Duekster
06-22-2012, 08:04 PM
Does any one rent these for there jobs? I looked into it a few weeks ago $165 a week, not bad. Better than running to the gas station.

I also thought of putting one in an enclosed trailer for the job site.


$20 plus per sf on small entry walks is the only way to go, other wise you will loose money.

Pun intended I hope:laugh:

Birchwood
06-22-2012, 08:11 PM
Pun intended I hope:laugh:

Didn't mean for it to be but after reading it a few times, it is pretty funny!

DVS Hardscaper
06-22-2012, 08:56 PM
Does any one rent these for there jobs? I looked into it a few weeks ago $165 a week, not bad. Better than running to the gas station.

I also thought of putting one in an enclosed trailer for the job site.


$20 plus per sf on small entry walks is the only way to go, other wise you will loose money.


Yes, professionals use bathrooms. The homeowners do not want to smell urine from a crew of 3 when they're walking around the yard. 90-degree days and it gets REAL pleasant.

We rent porta bathrooms for $85 to $100 per MONTH.

I would not do a trailer. Then you have to dispose of the crap. Who has time to drive to a sewer plant? Let the porta pot companies contend with it.


.

.
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4 seasons lawn&land
06-22-2012, 10:01 PM
I cant understand the 4 days of dropping pavers in place. Once you get the base all set you can drop pavers as fast as you can move.

DVS Hardscaper
06-22-2012, 11:04 PM
Wrong button

DVS Hardscaper
06-22-2012, 11:07 PM
I cant understand the 4 days of dropping pavers in place. Once you get the base all set you can drop pavers as fast as you can move.

Silly me, 16 yrs of doing this, you'd think I'd know this stuff by now.

I guess if you wanna aim for 700 sf in a day - you'll need temps to be below 78-degrees.....


The mOst we ever did was about 700 sf, with 4 guys, and about 10 hr days. Wide open working conditions. No curves. All 4 of us being under 30 yeas old. About 95-degrees out, blazing sun. 2 guys laying. 1 guy feeding pavers to them. And me cutting.
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4 seasons lawn&land
06-22-2012, 11:07 PM
i said i cant understand it I didnt say you cant understand it

DVS Hardscaper
06-22-2012, 11:10 PM
i said i cant understand it I didnt say you cant understand it

I know.

My response - Its called sarcasm


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BradLewisLawnCare
06-22-2012, 11:46 PM
I love how thick it's laid down there...

Birchwood
06-22-2012, 11:48 PM
Yes, professionals use bathrooms. The homeowners do not want to smell urine from a crew of 3 when they're walking around the yard. 90-degree days and it gets REAL pleasant.

We rent porta bathrooms for $85 to $100 per MONTH.

I would not do a trailer. Then you have to dispose of the crap. Who has time to drive to a sewer plant? Let the porta pot companies contend with it.


.

.
Posted via Mobile Device



That is a great price, I may need to call around, are the servicing that weekly for that price also. Have you had any problems from neighbors or the city for having it in afront yard?

DVS Hardscaper
06-22-2012, 11:57 PM
Yes. Cleaned weekly. The one in the pic was kept as clean as you see it for the 3 weeks we used it. Top notch mom and pop business.

No problems. Most people would rather see a potty then have their kids watch the workers go wee wee in the bushes.
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xtreem3d
06-23-2012, 07:21 AM
With 3 guys we install no less than 500 sf in one 8 hr day. Once in a while they may hit 550 to 600 sf.

This is for patios an big areas. Walks take much longer.

So if you're doing 2000 sf, right there is 4 days of dropping pavers in place.

Plus 1/2 a day for brushing in sand. In addition to the aforementioned 4 days.

Plus about a day for cutting pavers (border, turns, obsticals, etc)

So right there you have a min of 5 days tied up just in handling of the pavers.

Without seeing the layout I'm gonna say you have 2 days just in installing and compacting the aggregate base. Not including excavation.

You're taking up 2000 sf of existing pavers on the ground? Whoo-we that's alotta work. Taking up the pavers, CLEANING THE SAND OFF OF THEM. Pallatizing, and wrapping with shrunk wrap so they don't spill all over the yard is an easy additional 8 hrs.

So far we're at 8 days and we haven't even factored in excavating, turf restoration, and daily clean up.

Your experience level? Please tell us about that. Pictures of past jobs would be nice to see :)

.
Posted via Mobile Device

If I would have read this post before doing our biggest patio job(2700 sq ft) I would have laughed at the times posted . I originally thought I would have easily been able to make the cuts and sweep sand in a day no problem. I was shocked at how long something seemingly simple like sweeping sand could actually take. We avg just under 500 sq ft per day using Holland Stone. There is alot of stoping and checking your joint line with string lines then tweaking anything off course.
Our base took close to 3 days but we did have to wheel it (Yikes!!!!).
Our patio wasn't to be perfectly flat becaue of a sewer drain (water needed to flow in a dual slope manner) so it probably took the better part of a day just to set the screed rails with the laser.....FWIW
Good Luck with the project
Steve

DVS Hardscaper
06-23-2012, 02:23 PM
500 SF of holland stone in a day is a pretty good amount of work. Those 4x8 suck up time because they're small.


I am convinced that many contractors (or so called contractors) like to under estimate the scope of work. They see a nice job that they know they have a real strong shot at getting. So they play it down, because in their mind they want the job. They want the money, and they want to be able to say "we did a patio that used 21 pallets of pavers".

There is no such thing as simply "click and drop".

Like Xtreem said - there is measuring. There is stopping and making sure the joint lines are ALL straight. And there is STRAIGHTENING the joint lines because the probably are NOT straight!

Our biggest paver install was a 6000 sf driveway.

We have done a 3200 SF pool deck.

And we have multiple pool decks ranging from 1600 SF to 2200 SF.

The reason I'm stating this is because I'm trying to get the point across that I know my $h!t :)


Pool decks are even trickier. The pools are either rectanuglar or rounded (duh!) But......you have to maintain STRAIGHT and SQUARE joints on ALL SIDES of the pool! If the pool is NOT square - you will have MUCH trouble making straight and square joint lines.

And if the pool IS square - you'll still have trouble making straight and square joint lines. We have one pool deck that I assure you - the lines are perfect. Flawless. It probably took about 2 hours of measuring and measuring and double checking, staring at the ground, and coming up with a plan.

And we have other pool decks where we have had to use creativity to conceal the break in the flow of lines. The pools were rounded, making it nearly impossible to get the pavers to meet up perfect. But if you were to go to these jobs, even the best paver installers would have to really study the pavers to find where we made it work.

Hot summer temps are production killers. You're in blazing sun, on sand, with heat radiating off the sand and the pavers that are being put in place. Everyone is grumpy and doesnt want to be there. Making a lot of stops to drink water and to rest. Pricing summer jobs need to reflect the summer temps.

If you think you're gonna *CLICK & DROP* and roll with it - you're kidding yourself. Wishful thinking.



,

xtreem3d
06-23-2012, 03:43 PM
500 SF of holland stone in a day is a pretty good amount of work. Those 4x8 suck up time because they're small.


I am convinced that many contractors (or so called contractors) like to under estimate the scope of work. They see a nice job that they know they have a real strong shot at getting. So they play it down, because in their mind they want the job. They want the money, and they want to be able to say "we did a patio that used 21 pallets of pavers".

There is no such thing as simply "click and drop".

Like Xtreem said - there is measuring. There is stopping and making sure the joint lines are ALL straight. And there is STRAIGHTENING the joint lines because the probably are NOT straight!

Our biggest paver install was a 6000 sf driveway.

We have done a 3200 SF pool deck.

And we have multiple pool decks ranging from 1600 SF to 2200 SF.

The reason I'm stating this is because I'm trying to get the point across that I know my $h!t :)


Pool decks are even trickier. The pools are either rectanuglar or rounded (duh!) But......you have to maintain STRAIGHT and SQUARE joints on ALL SIDES of the pool! If the pool is NOT square - you will have MUCH trouble making straight and square joint lines.

And if the pool IS square - you'll still have trouble making straight and square joint lines. We have one pool deck that I assure you - the lines are perfect. Flawless. It probably took about 2 hours of measuring and measuring and double checking, staring at the ground, and coming up with a plan.

And we have other pool decks where we have had to use creativity to conceal the break in the flow of lines. The pools were rounded, making it nearly impossible to get the pavers to meet up perfect. But if you were to go to these jobs, even the best paver installers would have to really study the pavers to find where we made it work.

Hot summer temps are production killers. You're in blazing sun, on sand, with heat radiating off the sand and the pavers that are being put in place. Everyone is grumpy and doesnt want to be there. Making a lot of stops to drink water and to rest. Pricing summer jobs need to reflect the summer temps.

If you think you're gonna *CLICK & DROP* and roll with it - you're kidding yourself. Wishful thinking.



,

That last paragraph is soooo true. Our project was in record temps and surrounded by concrete buildings , no air movement, and the heat off the paver job was a production killer for at least a week's time. I'm sure we all have job's we look back on and wonder how did we do it...that is definetly one of mine
Steve

4 seasons lawn&land
06-23-2012, 03:50 PM
500 SF of holland stone in a day is a pretty good amount of work. Those 4x8 suck up time because they're small.


I am convinced that many contractors (or so called contractors) like to under estimate the scope of work. They see a nice job that they know they have a real strong shot at getting. So they play it down, because in their mind they want the job. They want the money, and they want to be able to say "we did a patio that used 21 pallets of pavers".

There is no such thing as simply "click and drop".

Like Xtreem said - there is measuring. There is stopping and making sure the joint lines are ALL straight. And there is STRAIGHTENING the joint lines because the probably are NOT straight!

Our biggest paver install was a 6000 sf driveway.

We have done a 3200 SF pool deck.

And we have multiple pool decks ranging from 1600 SF to 2200 SF.

The reason I'm stating this is because I'm trying to get the point across that I know my $h!t :)


Pool decks are even trickier. The pools are either rectanuglar or rounded (duh!) But......you have to maintain STRAIGHT and SQUARE joints on ALL SIDES of the pool! If the pool is NOT square - you will have MUCH trouble making straight and square joint lines.

And if the pool IS square - you'll still have trouble making straight and square joint lines. We have one pool deck that I assure you - the lines are perfect. Flawless. It probably took about 2 hours of measuring and measuring and double checking, staring at the ground, and coming up with a plan.

And we have other pool decks where we have had to use creativity to conceal the break in the flow of lines. The pools were rounded, making it nearly impossible to get the pavers to meet up perfect. But if you were to go to these jobs, even the best paver installers would have to really study the pavers to find where we made it work.

Hot summer temps are production killers. You're in blazing sun, on sand, with heat radiating off the sand and the pavers that are being put in place. Everyone is grumpy and doesnt want to be there. Making a lot of stops to drink water and to rest. Pricing summer jobs need to reflect the summer temps.

If you think you're gonna *CLICK & DROP* and roll with it - you're kidding yourself. Wishful thinking.



,


Do these straight and square joint lines still take as long if your doing a random pattern? How many man hours is a 2000 sf pool paver patio?

alldayrj
06-23-2012, 03:58 PM
It can sometimes be harder with a random pattern since you need to break the line
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SVA_Concrete
06-23-2012, 05:03 PM
i second that,

anyone can lay an "I" pattern.

random takes a good eye, much more thinking involved.

AztlanLC
06-23-2012, 05:29 PM
Also depends on type of pavers we just finshed a 1200 sqf. Patio with the new pavers from cambridge ledgstone xl, me and 3 guys laid down 900 sqf. In 6 hours one of the best times we have done and it wasn't rushing it at all.
A pool patio of 2000 sqf. With easy access, 6" base, geotextile, fullnose coping square pool would take my company 450 man hours to complete.

alldayrj
06-23-2012, 06:31 PM
Those xls are wild right? Did you use a brick carrier type thing or by hand? Once theyre set dont try and move em lol
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4 seasons lawn&land
06-23-2012, 08:47 PM
I guess thats where time+material pricing trumps square footage pricing. more competitive bids. however, some jobs done on square footage can make tons of cash. aka if the guy who said 40k got the job. i've never seen pavers put down at 25/sf, or even 20 though. if you get 15 around here youre doing great.

your price works out to 5.5 for labor and materials, without brick. i think thats a little low. I do paver relays (pull old pavers, clean, add sand and re lay) for 3 to 4 a SF. once a customer bought all materials and just wanted me to install, I did that for 5/sf.

how did that job work out for you @ the 5 s/f mark?

DVS Hardscaper
06-24-2012, 10:17 AM
Do these straight and square joint lines still take as long if your doing a random pattern? How many man hours is a 2000 sf pool paver patio?


The beauty of random pattern, random size pavers is that you can hide pavers that you had to cut to close off the hole in many different places. Works out great.
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alldayrj
06-24-2012, 06:35 PM
We we're both happy. I was slow at the time and it just came up and helped me out. He also bought all materials. It was relieveing to just show up with tools and guys. Thats it.
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