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RoboMike
06-23-2012, 07:34 PM
Hi All,

We bought a house in south florida and the lawn is completely taken over by weeds. I've used a selective herbicide ortho weed b gone and it works on the less problematic weeds like dollar weeds. For the more problematic viney broadleaf weeds that form a dense carpet / mat close to the soil the grass doesn't even have a chance and I really hate those lite purple / pink flowers. Other weeds are like trees with long tap roots. So for those I am using Roundup since it only kills the plants it touches on the leaves and does not leave much residue in the soil.

The problem is that my entire back yard has a weed problem.

We have St. Augustine grass.

So I would like you opinion as I'm not sure if my approach is the best way.

My approach:

Systematically use weed killer on the weeds where I can find them, as often as I can. Then when most of the dense populations of weeds are killed (perhaps most of my lawn) then fertilize the grass every 6 weeks or so in attempts to get the grass to grow and crowd out other weeds.

If I was living back up north, I'd buy seed and over seed.

Which is why I have another question... since you can't get St. Augustine grass in seed, should I combine it with another grass type that I can get in seed? I was thinking Caterpillar grass which is similar to St. Augustine...

Re-sodding, plugs, etc.. is too expensive.

I'd love your help!

mjlcare2
06-23-2012, 09:34 PM
With what your going to spend on chemicals and fertilization to MAYBE have an "ok" yard in a year.. I'd save up for the new sod, instant yard.. Some weeds you simply cannot get out of a yard without killing everything around it.

Ric
06-23-2012, 09:34 PM
.

Nothing is easier to take care than BlueGrass in Pa. Cold Hardness Zone 5. But South florida is Cold Hardiness Zone 10 not 5 and St Augustine is nothing like Bluegrass.

I strongly suggest you hire a professional Lawn Care Company. I believe it will cost you less in the long run.

.

Patriot Services
06-23-2012, 09:41 PM
Caterpillar grass? I think you mean Centipede. In that case you will still spend a ton of money getting it to establish. Most bang for the buck is Common Bermuda. Cheap, looks great, easy to establish and maintain. Overseed with Annual Rye in fall for equally cheap year round green.
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carriedrewdog
06-23-2012, 10:21 PM
Prolly' shouldn't be posting on this 'cause I can't spell, but-
broadleaf weed killers for St Augustine grass are atrazine and penoxsulam (trade name LockUp). I don't think Weed-Be-Gone is for St Augustine. Check the upper temp limit for these chemical applications. Sedges will need a different control chemical.

Really may be cheaper to RoundUp and start over.

Landscape Poet
06-23-2012, 10:52 PM
.
I strongly suggest you hire a professional Lawn Care Company. I believe it will cost you less in the long run.

.

Ric has it correct. I know it is hard to accept but as he put it and you have found out, caring for turf here simply is not as easy as throwing down some seed and watch it grow like the cool season turfs you are used too.

With our humid , warm season here there are many pest and diseases that can take out any progress your turf may make after spending good money trying to make that progress.

At the very least what I would do is consult with a professional (NOT a TG rep) but rather a smaller local lawn company that will be honest with you and tell you if your turf is even worth attempting to save at this point. They can also look as many factors that you may have overlooked like is your irrigation set up properly and getting proper coverage? IMHO this is something that really should be considered in the home inspection progress especially for those from up north as our turfs can go downhill really quick without proper irrigation and care from a fert and squirt company.

It is very common for those of us that have been in the industry to know when someone from up north has moved into one of the neighborhoods we work in. We first notice you mowing the St. Augustine like it was a BG or Fescue and murdering it, then we see you pounding the heck out of it with the Turfbuilder program and your speedgreen, we then watch you freak out of your first water bill and reduce or shut down the water, we then watch your growing out of control St. Augustine create new tender growth before going into drought stress. Then we watch the chinch bugs relocate and populate in your lawn, watch you guys move your manual sprinkler around to all the new "drought spots" in your lawn and water your little hearts out before one of us in kind enough to take time out of our busy schedule to inform you that those drought spots are actually chinch bug, we take time to inform you that need a pest control company to assist you in this only to watch you not take our advice and go to Home Depot only to get a bag of pesticide, spread it with your speedygreen, only to have us stop by again after watching your lawn further decline because your chinch bugs are resistant to bifen but the guy at home depot did not bother to inform you that was possible.

I am not trying to be rude to you but rather just advising you to take Ric's advice and have a professional get you in the right direction as you can and will spend hundreds of dollars and countless hours trying to resolve the issues. So save yourself the headache and don't be the like the people I described and run into every year. Save yourself money and headache and just find a local smaller Fert and Squirt guy and have him get you off to a right start or tell you if it is even worth attempting with what you have.

By the way - I know that bottle of weed-b-gone says safe for St. Augustine on it...but do read the directions fully and it will advise you not to apply to Floritam St. Augustine as it could injure it. How much of a possibility that is I do not know ..but that is why I let the Professionals handle the lawn care applications...because they do.

Good luck and don't be one of those guys.

RoboMike
06-24-2012, 07:14 AM
Thanks for the responses so far guys! So far I am getting good points and some of you are funnier than others. :)

Patriot Services
06-24-2012, 08:05 AM
It sounds like the SA may be beyond even the best chemical attack. I totally agree with needing a great CPO for the best lawns. However he already threw out the budget word. Can't get thar from here problem.
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RoboMike
06-24-2012, 08:38 AM
Also, the only local companies I can find around 33498 is Scotts and another large chain, the smaller lawn mowing companies won't do it because they need an additional license or something. I had people come and give me quotes for whitefly for my ficus, and they all told me that the ficus couldn't be saved. After a prune, fertilizer, and granular insect control I only lost 5 ficus. The rest are beautiful... so I have little faith in any local or national company; If you know of a good company I'm interested. Until then it's a DIY project.

I don't care if I kill a small amount of grass along a large patch of weeds. My assumption is that the grass will grow new runners as long as I keep the weeds out.

I really like the idea of over seeding with Common Bermuda..... Thank you Patriot.

bug-guy
06-24-2012, 09:31 AM
that viney weed google skunk vine or doveweed

http://plants.ifas.ufl.edu/node/303
triclopyr can be found in some vine and stump products look at active ing. check small area on st aug reaction

i believe celcius is lavbel for doveweed.

RoboMike
06-24-2012, 10:02 AM
Hi Bug-guy, I have the following weeds in my yard:

Worst Weeds in my yard, taking up lots of area:

Prostate Knotweed
Spurge
Carpet weed (i think)
and couple others.

The weeds that I am least concerned about in my lawn are:

Dollar Weed
Oxalis stricta

Current strategy:

Ortho weed b gone for southern lawns on early and less concerning weeds.

Roundup placed as precisely as possible on the "worst weeds" that are not killed by even a potent dose of the ortho weed b gone.

There are a few areas where I'm going to just clear the whole area as the weeds a predominate on those areas.

When I feel that I have given the St. Augustine a fighting chance, then I'll deploy the slow release nitrogen fertilizer.

My concern is that the weeds will also grow faster with the fertilizer.

This is why I am wondering if I should definitely over seed with bremuda or another type of grass... I don't care if the St. Augustine chokes out the bremuda, It's just all about weed control at the moment.

What do you guys think?

cgaengineer
06-24-2012, 10:11 AM
I am a Bermuda guy...but don't overseed a SA lawn with Bermuda.
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gregory
06-24-2012, 10:11 AM
mike, like others have said you'll be in for a long road and your yard wont look good for awhile. and you might spend more in chemicals then you would if you just re-sodded. i would do what ric said and check with some local pro's to see what they say and i would use more then one...


i myself am looking at getting another place bc its bigger and closer to town and on 1.1 acres but the yard is trashed and thats what my plan would be spray the entire yard with roundup to do a total kill then lat new sod...

RoboMike
06-24-2012, 10:22 AM
Greg, I hear what you're saying. I have 1/2 acre and re-soding my entire back yard is too expensive.

Chemicals are not that expensive, and are effective for their uses. I'm not expecting a great lawn over night ... I'm trying to give the grass a fighting change.

Bremuda seed is cheap, will outgrow most weed types, and SA might snub it out later. I'm ok with that.

cgaengineer
06-24-2012, 12:31 PM
I'm doubtful you will get bermuda to grow in an overseeded use. I am also doubtful you want mixed grass.
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Patriot Services
06-24-2012, 01:20 PM
I doubt there is enough SA in all the weeds to save. Coated Bermuda seed will grow on concrete. CPO's spend a lot of time trying to remove Bermuda from SA. Most yards have a little mix in them despite best efforts.
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AskTurfPro
06-24-2012, 01:30 PM
Allot of the mowing companies are only licienced for weed control in the plant beds. If you can find a local company that has a Certified Pest Control Operator (PCO) in the category of Lawn and Ornamental Pest Control, that would be your best bet. They can take care of insect weed and disease problems in the turfgrass areas. Many of them will offer lawn care programs and the local florida knowledge will be indespensable.

gregory
06-24-2012, 04:39 PM
if you want the SA in the long run DO NOT seed with bermuda. bermuda is one of the toughest weeds to get out of SA. ric is one of the few that i have seen be able to do it. i have seen it first hand bc it was done in my yard..

to try and save this yard you will have your work cut out for you. for one you dont have the equipment unless your willing to buy that you are wasting your time.if you do things half ass you will get half ass results. i myself am one of the few just home owners on here i am not a pro like most of them on here. i also own a z spray jr and that thing has made my life very easy it spreads and sprays..

there are some very knowledgeable guys on here that deal with southern turf. like RIC and GREENDOC and ROY. search the posts and you'll find vast amount of info on these forums from these guys along with others..

i will be more then happy to help with that i know but i am not a pro like these guys are. unless you are ready to spend the money on equipment then hire someone. bc how are you going to spread out fert? or how are you going to blanket spray your yard? ask the 3 that i just mentioned if they spot spray or blanket spray and i'll bet they will all tell you they blanket spray.. i tried to spot spray nutsedge and it didnt work so i started to blanket spray for that and it has worked great. there are more things to having a great turf then dumping some fert and some weed killer on your yard to make it look good..if you need anything just send me a pm...

greendoctor
06-24-2012, 05:13 PM
Hi All,

We bought a house in south florida and the lawn is completely taken over by weeds. I've used a selective herbicide ortho weed b gone and it works on the less problematic weeds like dollar weeds. For the more problematic viney broadleaf weeds that form a dense carpet / mat close to the soil the grass doesn't even have a chance and I really hate those lite purple / pink flowers. Other weeds are like trees with long tap roots. So for those I am using Roundup since it only kills the plants it touches on the leaves and does not leave much residue in the soil.

The problem is that my entire back yard has a weed problem.

We have St. Augustine grass.

So I would like you opinion as I'm not sure if my approach is the best way.

My approach:

Systematically use weed killer on the weeds where I can find them, as often as I can. Then when most of the dense populations of weeds are killed (perhaps most of my lawn) then fertilize the grass every 6 weeks or so in attempts to get the grass to grow and crowd out other weeds.

If I was living back up north, I'd buy seed and over seed.

Which is why I have another question... since you can't get St. Augustine grass in seed, should I combine it with another grass type that I can get in seed? I was thinking Caterpillar grass which is similar to St. Augustine...

Re-sodding, plugs, etc.. is too expensive.

I'd love your help!

The first thing to do with a bad st augustine or any other lawn is check the irrigation. If it does not have one it needs it. If it does, the heads need to be set for uniformity of coverage and correct run time for the soil conditions. Next, you do fertilize, however not with Scotts or any of those miracles in the bag that are nothing more than slow release urea. Fertilization will not benefit the weeds more than the grass. If anything it will help the lawn tolerate herbicide treatment better and set the conditions for the grass to take over while the weeds are dying.

My experience with Weed-B-Gon for Southern Lawns is that it does nothing to the weeds that form mats and have deep taproots. At least not at the dosages safe on st augustine. I have seen homeowners who have a craniorectal inversion thinking that it does work on those weeds because the idea of hiring a CPO hurts their ego. It works when spot sprayed at a gross overdosage that kills the lawn or is applied contrary to the label.

I do know of selective herbicides for broadleaves in st augustine. However, I rather see them applied through calibrated sprayers capable of applying a set dosage to the entire area.

williams lcm
06-24-2012, 05:50 PM
I have seen many lawns looks beautiful with St.Augustine mixed with a little bit of bermuda. It gives it a nice tight carpet look. Someone once said to me that bermuda grass can get into your lawn from the birds. I don't know if this is true. But cut the grass 4inches or higher. Yes most northern pple think grass looks better the shorther it is.

greendoctor
06-24-2012, 05:55 PM
Even southern people. However, some extensive education will correct that. I have had people want grass cut at 2". Now that does not work on st augustine(too short). Does not work on bermuda or zoysia either(too long). The correct height of cut goes a long way in having turf that is easier to manage.

cgaengineer
06-24-2012, 07:43 PM
Even southern people. However, some extensive education will correct that. I have had people want grass cut at 2". Now that does not work on st augustine(too short). Does not work on bermuda or zoysia either(too long). The correct height of cut goes a long way in having turf that is easier to manage.

This is 100% correct. 3" tall Bermuda is not more drought tolerant.
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RoboMike
06-25-2012, 07:49 AM
Hey All ...

Green doctor you make some good points, I'll fertilize the grass and try a different herbicide (any recommendations?)

If that doesn't work, then I'll nuke some areas and plant a seed based grass. I don't care if I have SA or Bermuda or a mix as long as there's grass for the kids to play on.

RoboMike
06-25-2012, 12:17 PM
Additionally, I checked the yard today. It looks like I already have a few different types of grass. I have bermuda as weeds coming through the mulch. Then I have another type (not on runners) as well.

How did I get all the grass and weeds? Well - we had some hurricanes blow the seeds. Also, the landscaping company doesn't clean the bottom of the mower in between houses.

So, maybe my lawn needs a restart.

I question the SA in my backyard here is why....

In the rainy season of south florida my back yard get's marshy / soggy and we get a lot of rain.

In the summer - winter I use the sprinkler system and I get coverage 5 zones, 30 minutes per zone, 2-3 times a week.

SA is also not as dense as other grasses.

Since I can't regulate the water year round for SA, I was wondering perhaps I should just go for another type like Bermuda or Seashore paspalum?

greendoctor
06-25-2012, 04:39 PM
This is 100% correct. 3" tall Bermuda is not more drought tolerant.
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Nor does it keep out weeds. Right now, I am also serving as a consultant to municipal facilities consisting of sports fields that are supposed to be bermuda grass. Strike one is mowing with rotary mowers. Strike two is incorrect irrigation scheduling and coverage. Strike three is inadequate fertilization. Result is fields that consist of warm season grassy weeds.

RoboMike
06-25-2012, 04:43 PM
ok. You got me. I have a Professional coming over tomorrow at 9:00 Am.

RAlmaroad
06-25-2012, 04:52 PM
Let us know what he advises and who/what is the company. (Just camouflage)

RoboMike
06-25-2012, 04:55 PM
The company is www (dot) masseyservices (dot) com and I'll update this post with the Intel.

mjlcare2
06-25-2012, 05:08 PM
Additionally, I checked the yard today. It looks like I already have a few different types of grass. I have bermuda as weeds coming through the mulch. Then I have another type (not on runners) as well.

How did I get all the grass and weeds? Well - we had some hurricanes blow the seeds. Also, the landscaping company doesn't clean the bottom of the mower in between houses.

So, maybe my lawn needs a restart.

I question the SA in my backyard here is why....

In the rainy season of south florida my back yard get's marshy / soggy and we get a lot of rain.

In the summer - winter I use the sprinkler system and I get coverage 5 zones, 30 minutes per zone, 2-3 times a week.

SA is also not as dense as other grasses.

Since I can't regulate the water year round for SA, I was wondering perhaps I should just go for another type like Bermuda or Seashore paspalum?




Haha! there you go blaming everyone else for your yard.. The hurricane blew the weeds in is a new one, never heard that one before.. Are you paying your landscaping company an extra fee to clean their mowers before they start your weed free lawn..

Just remember a pallet of sod is round $100 so every $100 you spend on chemicals, professional help, etc just think to yourself.."Man, that"s 400 sq ft of new lawn I could have gotten " Good Luck

What types of grass do your neighbors have, plan on matching theirs? go with SA.. most weeds blend in a little better than they will in Bermuda, as you will still have weeds forever

RoboMike
06-25-2012, 05:11 PM
Haha! there you go blaming everyone else for your yard.. Maybe you should read the first page.... I bought/inherited this yard. :waving:

RoboMike
06-25-2012, 05:15 PM
Just remember a pallet of sod is round $100 so every $100 you spend on chemicals, professional help, etc just think to yourself.."Man, that"s 400 sq ft of new lawn I could have gotten " Good Luck

What types of grass do your neighbors have, plan on matching theirs? go with SA.. most weeds blend in a little better than they will in Bermuda, as you will still have weeds forever


SA sod is $0.97 a sq foot.

mjlcare2
06-25-2012, 05:23 PM
Maybe you should read the first page.... I bought/inherited this yard. :waving:

And you still blame the weather and lawn guys for the yard being a bed of weeds? Give me your zip code, I bet I can find you Sod for less than $.30..

the reason your yard is filled with weeds is because the previous owners did not take care of their yard or did not want to pay for the professionals to do it.

cgaengineer
06-25-2012, 05:23 PM
Hurricane blown seeds and mower deck transfer is highly unlikely...your lawn already had the weed seeds in it, you just failed to prevent them from germinating.
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RoboMike
06-25-2012, 05:24 PM
Ok then my dad told me wrong, my apologies. Yes, I am surrounded by weeds. My zip is 33498.

cgaengineer
06-25-2012, 05:27 PM
Ok then my dad told me wrong, my apologies. Yes, I am surrounded by weeds. My zip is 33498.

Yeah...dads also think not bagging clippings causes thatch....or mine does/did.
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RoboMike
06-25-2012, 05:31 PM
Also, Bermuda is supposed to grow faster and more dense than SA and most weeds. Since it's in a seed I can over seed an area to crowd out weeds. (https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/lh007) My water retention pond in the back yard means I don't pay for water for my lawn so that is not an issue. So why wouldn't round up / renting a tiller and seeding the area be less expensive than sod?

I could see your point if I actually cared about saving my SA.

jvanvliet
06-25-2012, 05:32 PM
SA sod is $0.97 a sq foot.

I'll do an install for you; sod included @$0.75 a sq ft. miminum 500 ft.

jvanvliet
06-25-2012, 05:33 PM
SA sod is $0.97 a sq foot.

I'll do an install for you; SA sod included @$0.75 a sq ft. miminum 500 ft.

RoboMike
06-25-2012, 05:33 PM
I think I already mentioned that sod is out of my budget. I have 21,780 sq feet of yard.

jvanvliet
06-25-2012, 05:37 PM
I think I already mentioned that sod is out of my budget. I have 21,780 sq feet of yard.

21K is that the lot size or just the green area.

mjlcare2
06-25-2012, 05:39 PM
Yep, found a dozen or so local companies for you who have sod for around $.25 a sq ft without install so either that $.97 is for a premium install or somebody was trying to rip you off.. might have worked if you listened to your pop's lawn advice

Patriot Services
06-25-2012, 05:46 PM
That's still 5 grand to sod the yard. You guys are real good at spending other peoples money. You also miss the point about having grass for the kids to play on. How many SA sports fields have you seen? How wear tolerant is SA?
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mjlcare2
06-25-2012, 05:49 PM
round-up and renting a tiller? Are you kidding? Are you trying to harvest weeds or get rid of them.. Round-up doesn't kill the seeds and by tilling them up you are more or less planting them under the soil allowing them to easily germinate again especially since your yard stays pretty "soggy" as you said. If your gonna do it, do it right! proper chemicals, sod cutter, etc.. or just hire the pro who knows what he is doing.

Landscape Poet
06-25-2012, 05:49 PM
I think I already mentioned that sod is out of my budget. I have 21,780 sq feet of yard.
Bermuda seed is not cheap these days. Have you checked into that yet? It is risky vs knowing that sod will give you a instant lawn and the seed may or may not germinate.

One last thing about Bermuda - does your entire property receive enough light to support Bermuda?

I am all for Bermuda myself - but also know that there are often limitations that keep it from being the appropriate turf for a property.

Things to think about - Bermuda has the deepest roots of any of our southern turf grass, it really needs to be mowed lower and more often during the growing season to ensure apical dominance does not occur and that your turf can get as dense as it can, this will mean most likely that you will be mowing that 21K at least twice a week to ensure you are not removing more than 1/3 of the blade and unless you have the perfect flat lawn - you will be doing this with a reel mower or possibly a push mower.
Also - do you have neighbors that live directly by you? If so they will not appreciate you installing Bermuda most likely as it commonly moves into SA lawns and is not commonly able to be removed without damaging the SA.

Landscape Poet
06-25-2012, 05:53 PM
If Bermuda seed is to be used - My suggestion at min is - Spray with RU - Ensure everything is dead - Rake off old dead debris. Rent Slit seeder from rental store. Plant seed. Pray.

mjlcare2
06-25-2012, 06:04 PM
Bermuda seed is not cheap these days. Have you checked into that yet? It is risky vs knowing that sod will give you a instant lawn and the seed may or may not germinate.

One last thing about Bermuda - does your entire property receive enough light to support Bermuda?

I am all for Bermuda myself - but also know that there are often limitations that keep it from being the appropriate turf for a property.

Things to think about - Bermuda has the deepest roots of any of our southern turf grass, it really needs to be mowed lower and more often during the growing season to ensure apical dominance does not occur and that your turf can get as dense as it can, this will mean most likely that you will be mowing that 21K at least twice a week to ensure you are not removing more than 1/3 of the blade and unless you have the perfect flat lawn - you will be doing this with a reel mower or possibly a push mower.
Also - do you have neighbors that live directly by you? If so they will not appreciate you installing Bermuda most likely as it commonly moves into SA lawns and is not commonly able to be removed without damaging the SA.



I bought a 5lb bucket of bermuda seed for $130 a couple of weeks ago.. covers 5k sq and an over seed will only yield a 20-30% yield if done right.. at least what I've seen and heard.. so do the math.. pretty expensive and a pretty big gamble.. Landscape Poet is right

RoboMike
06-25-2012, 06:10 PM
that's the lot size. small front yard, huge back yard.

greendoctor
06-25-2012, 06:11 PM
The mower for that much bermuda is not cheap. Landscape Poet makes some very good points about bermuda vs st augustine. I am a bermuda guy myself, however I do not like to see it used where it does not get 8 hours of full sun per day, 1 lb of Nitrogen per month of growing season and a reel mower cut every 3-7 days.

In my state, sod is expensive. I am talking about $5-7 per sq ft not including the irrigation system the installer will want to install. Conscientious contractors will not touch the job without verifying and ensuring good irrigation coverage. It is a frequent situation for me to take a lawn that is 50% or more weeds and convert it back to one species of grass. Only thing I require is a working, properly adjusted irrigation system and cooperation from whoever is mowing the lawn.

In your case, a good CPO or learning how to manage this yourself is the best option.

fl-landscapes
06-25-2012, 06:12 PM
I bought a 5lb bucket of bermuda seed for $130 a couple of weeks ago.. covers 5k sq and an over seed will only yield a 20-30% yield if done right.. at least what I've seen and heard.. so do the math.. pretty expensive and a pretty big gamble.. Landscape Poet is right


You must have bought the most expensive Bermuda seed on the planet. Here is a link to a seed supplier I use. Keep in mind Bermuda seeds are very small and go a long way. Aprox. 1.5 million seeds per pound. Rates 1-2 pounds per 1000 square feet so seed is by far cheaper than sod, if you deal with Bermuda encroaching in a St Augustine lawn you know it's not much of a gamble, Bermuda is a prolific germinater. http://www.hancockseed.com/seed-varieties-241/bermuda-grass-seed-364/ and over seeding by throwing seed on the ground may yield only20-30 percent that's why you do it with proper equipment and slit seed it in.

RoboMike
06-25-2012, 06:16 PM
I bought a 5lb bucket of bermuda seed for $130 a couple of weeks ago.. covers 5k sq and an over seed will only yield a 20-30% yield if done right.. at least what I've seen and heard.. so do the math.. pretty expensive and a pretty big gamble.. Landscape Poet is right

That seed still cost a lot less than sod. And you can over seed the weeds out.

My neighbors and I are separated by Ficus hedges,that we keep grass and weed free around the entire perimeter.

Poet makes some good points, I will follow those directions if the Pro tomorrow doesn't work out. Thanks poet, thanks Patriot.

If Patriot wan't 4 hours away he'd probably have my business by now. :)

greendoctor
06-25-2012, 06:17 PM
Bermuda also fills in from where it germinates, unlike cool season grasses. Do think about your neighbors, though. The only way to keep bermuda in your yard is with concrete walls, even then the stolons will find openings or work under footings that are not deep enough. Zoysia is even worse for working its way through concrete.

RoboMike
06-25-2012, 06:18 PM
I have a landscape company, they can mow it.

I have full sun in my entire back yard.

greendoctor
06-25-2012, 06:48 PM
I have a landscape company, they can mow it.

I have full sun in my entire back yard.

Most landscape companies do not know how to properly mow bermuda. They think they are cutting cool season grasses or want to believe that the equipment acceptable on a rye, blue, fescue mix will work. I do know that a good 25" or 27" reel will do the job on a half acre lawn.

mjlcare2
06-25-2012, 06:51 PM
You must have bought the most expensive Bermuda seed on the planet. Here is a link to a seed supplier I use. Keep in mind Bermuda seeds are very small and go a long way. Aprox. 1.5 million seeds per pound. Rates 1-2 pounds per 1000 square feet so seed is by far cheaper than sod, if you deal with Bermuda encroaching in a St Augustine lawn you know it's not much of a gamble, Bermuda is a prolific germinater. http://www.hancockseed.com/seed-varieties-241/bermuda-grass-seed-364/ and over seeding by throwing seed on the ground may yield only20-30 percent that's why you do it with proper equipment and slit seed it in.

sorry that was supposed to be a 25 lb bucket. Local Lesco dealer..


I don't think Massey will be able to help you.. you know they charge $60 plus for an average 2500 sq yard per app so guess what your 21K sq is gonna cost.

RoboMike
06-25-2012, 06:54 PM
sorry that was supposed to be a 25 lb bucket. Local Lesco dealer..


I don't think Massey will be able to help you.. you know they charge $60 plus for an average 2500 sq yard per app so guess what your 21K sq is gonna cost.

Geeze....

Ok, guess I'm gonna build a professional version of my robot lawn mower :usflag:.

greendoctor
06-25-2012, 06:56 PM
While you are at it, build a robot boom sprayer capable of applying up to 5 gallons per thousand. That is what is going to be needed to keep whatever grass you choose as grass and not a hayfield.

RoboMike
06-25-2012, 07:00 PM
Lol ... for weeds or for water?

mjlcare2
06-25-2012, 07:00 PM
lol don't take anything anybody says on here seriously anyways.. this is just a place for us all to vent and speak our minds without "losing" a customer.. lol anyway.. try a couple of pro's... take their advice and tally it up.. whichever options wins, do that..

RoboMike
06-25-2012, 07:02 PM
lol don't take anything anybody says on here seriously anyways.. this is just a place for us all to vent and speak our minds without "losing" a customer.. lol anyway.. try a couple of pro's... take their advice and tally it up.. whichever options wins, do that..

Lol :) It's all good.

greendoctor
06-25-2012, 07:18 PM
Lol ... for weeds or for water?

For weeds, insects and fertilization. Water comes from a properly set up and operated irrigation system. Not venting or BS ing

RoboMike
06-25-2012, 08:17 PM
Cool, I'll make one! :)

fl-landscapes
06-25-2012, 08:48 PM
sorry that was supposed to be a 25 lb bucket. Local Lesco dealer..


I don't think Massey will be able to help you.. you know they charge $60 plus for an average 2500 sq yard per app so guess what your 21K sq is gonna cost.

Yup, sunsport in the pail. I didn't have a lot of success with it. Used their 50lb common hulled Bermuda for almost the same price and had better success. If someones looking for hybrid quality there is really expensive seed for that type of job but for an improvement over Bahia and a decent lawn the common is fine.

Patriot Services
06-25-2012, 08:51 PM
You guys are really complicating a simple Bermuda rehab. Common Bermuda doesn't need a reel mower to get a good cut. Many golf courses including the one that makes up part of my backyard are using rotary ZTR's on the fairways which are common Bermuda. A 12 field soccer complex near here is all common Bermuda mowed at 2" with Toro ZTR's. Hybrids are a different animal and should be reeled to 1/2" on the tee's and greens. I don't think its possible to ONLY get 30% germination. Not everybody loves SA and can afford half an acre that the kids will trample into garbage in a month. Bermuda is easy to repair, SA means more money for sod patch. Nuke it, verticut it, rake it and seed. In a week you will have grass.
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fl-landscapes
06-25-2012, 08:52 PM
You guys are really complicating a simple Bermuda rehab. Common Bermuda doesn't need a reel mower to get a good cut. Many golf courses including the one that makes up part of my backyard are using rotary ZTR's on the fairways which are common Bermuda. A 12 field soccer complex near here is all common Bermuda mowed at 2" with Toro ZTR's. Hybrids are a different animal and should be reeled to 1/2" on the tee's and greens. I don't think its possible to ONLY get 30% germination. Not everybody loves SA and can afford half an acre that the kids will trample into garbage in a month. Bermuda is easy to repair, SA means more money for sod patch. Nuke it, verticut it, rake it and seed. In a week you will have grass.
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Exactly :clapping:

greendoctor
06-25-2012, 09:00 PM
Not to be contrary, but bermuda mowed low is easier to keep in other ways. Florida and the continental US might be different. But bermuda mowed at less than an inch tends to remain as bermuda without a heavy herbicide program. Low mowing encourages turf density and discourages weeds that tend to grow upright.

cgaengineer
06-25-2012, 09:08 PM
To get that Bermuda to spread you will need to topdress and mow with a reel mower...if you choose to get the reel mower and use prior to topdressing you will need to have it sharpened several times per season at a minimum of about $80 a pop.
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Patriot Services
06-25-2012, 09:08 PM
Not to be contrary, but bermuda mowed low is easier to keep in other ways. Florida and the continental US might be different. But bermuda mowed at less than an inch tends to remain as bermuda without a heavy herbicide program. Low mowing encourages turf density and discourages weeds that tend to grow upright.

Won't disagree with that. Problem is your unlikely to have flat enough ground unless you put a lot of effort into topdressing and leveling. Even then with the weather we have now the ground is going to move all over the place. 2" is a good compromise to minimize scalping and offer some weed control benefit. Its also about as low as a rotary will perform.
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Florida Gardener
06-25-2012, 09:09 PM
Exactly :clapping:

Dang fl-landscapes, I was wondering if you were still alive. Where you been? Also, what about ck from Orlando...did he go AWOL?
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cgaengineer
06-25-2012, 09:14 PM
Me hates common Bermuda...it's fugly! I have some in the left side of my reel mowed property and I'm about to smoke it with non selective...it is trying to take over my hybrid.
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greendoctor
06-25-2012, 09:16 PM
Won't disagree with that. Problem is your unlikely to have flat enough ground unless you put a lot of effort into topdressing and leveling. Even then with the weather we have now the ground is going to move all over the place. 2" is a good compromise to minimize scalping and offer some weed control benefit. Its also about as low as a rotary will perform.
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Many lawns here are not golf green flat. However, good mowing guys use a reel fitted with a front weighted roller and cut at 3/4". There is actually less scalping and gouging vs a rotary mower.

My prejudice against rotary mowers on bermuda stems from what happens to lawns and sports fields maintained with a rotary. It never fails that those areas get taken over by warm season weedy grasses. I have been involved in field trials sponsored by FMC and Bayer trying to clean up such areas. So far, the products used have been most effective when a program of low mowing is instituted. Low mowing not only keeps the lawn tight. It also is the nail in the coffin for weeds stunted by herbicide applications.

greendoctor
06-25-2012, 09:17 PM
Me hates common Bermuda...it's fugly! I have some in the left side of my reel mowed property and I'm about to smoke it with non selective...it is trying to take over my hybrid.
Posted via Mobile Device

3 Quarts RoundUp ProMaxx, 16 oz Fusilade, 32 oz Turflon ester. Say adios to the common.

Patriot Services
06-25-2012, 09:21 PM
3 Quarts RoundUp ProMaxx, 16 oz Fusilade, 32 oz Turflon ester. Say adios to the common.

Won't this smoke the hybrid its mixed with?
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Florida Gardener
06-25-2012, 09:21 PM
I hate the look of common Bermuda too. But for the OP purpose, it's his best bet. St Augustine that will be "played on" will just turn to weeds. Nothing but a waste of money.
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greendoctor
06-25-2012, 09:25 PM
Won't this smoke the hybrid its mixed with?
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cga is talking about destroying an area that consists of common. He once wrote me about an area that had a few sprigs of common in his hybrid. Guess it is not just a few sprigs any more. Otherwise, there is no control for common contaminating hybrid. You will have to ensure total destruction of the common. Can't use Basamid or Vapam any more.

cgaengineer
06-25-2012, 09:26 PM
Won't this smoke the hybrid its mixed with?
Posted via Mobile Device

Yeah, won't this smoke the hybrid? If you tell me no I'm on it. I was going to go around the area with an edger and kill everything inside the edged area.
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greendoctor
06-25-2012, 09:27 PM
I hate the look of common Bermuda too. But for the OP purpose, it's his best bet. St Augustine that will be "played on" will just turn to weeds. Nothing but a waste of money.
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When common is fed with about 1 lb of N per month and mowed at 3/4" with a reel it does not look bad if that is 100% of the grass. It will not look good if it is mixed with other grasses, mowed high and/or full of weeds.

greendoctor
06-25-2012, 09:28 PM
Yeah, won't this smoke the hybrid? If you tell me no I'm on it. I was going to go around the area with an edger and kill everything inside the edged area.
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Edging the area to cut off the stolons is your best bet to minimize translocation of this mix. It is much hotter than RoundUp alone.

cgaengineer
06-25-2012, 09:29 PM
cga is talking about destroying an area that consists of common. He once wrote me about an area that had a few sprigs of common in his hybrid. Guess it is not just a few sprigs any more. Otherwise, there is no control for common contaminating hybrid. You will have to ensure total destruction of the common. Can't use Basamid or Vapam any more.

Different house, different lawn...I got this lawn looking the best it's been in 5 years this season. What was to the far left...beyond the limits of the sod was left bare ground. What filled this area is common Bermuda...it has now crept into the original sod which is hybrid and left some very large nasty when mowed at 5/8" with reel mower areas.
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greendoctor
06-25-2012, 09:31 PM
Time to edge it off, then kill it.

cgaengineer
06-25-2012, 09:32 PM
Time to edge it off, then kill it.

I thought this was my best plan of action. I was thinking about doing 1' at a time and allowing hybrid to fill in...I'd estimate the area to be around 20-40 sq ft.
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greendoctor
06-25-2012, 09:49 PM
Take note of that mix then. RoundUp by itself is not guaranteed on bermuda.

Landscape Poet
06-25-2012, 09:54 PM
Take note of that mix then. RoundUp by itself is not guaranteed on bermuda.

Does that mixture tend to smoke Bermuda on the first application or are you still making multiple applications to ensure that it is smoked? I am familiar with RU and fusilade as I use them but what is the third chemcial and roughly what is its cost.

Florida Gardener
06-25-2012, 09:54 PM
When common is fed with about 1 lb of N per month and mowed at 3/4" with a reel it does not look bad if that is 100% of the grass. It will not look good if it is mixed with other grasses, mowed high and/or full of weeds.

Sure, but common here is mowed high, mixed with many other grasses, and full of weeds.
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cgaengineer
06-25-2012, 09:57 PM
Sure, but common here is mowed high, mixed with many other grasses, and full of weeds.
Posted via Mobile Device

Same here...and thick unsightly leafs.
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greendoctor
06-25-2012, 09:57 PM
Even hybrid bermuda or one of the many cultivars of zoysia will look hideous when it is starved and cut with a rotary mower.

cgaengineer
06-25-2012, 10:07 PM
Even hybrid bermuda or one of the many cultivars of zoysia will look hideous when it is starved and cut with a rotary mower.

I can only say that rotary cut Bermuda lawns are acceptable..not great...not even good...they might be good if leveled, but every single bump turns those spots brown unless you continuously raise the deck height, after which the lawn is two inch brown stems with .25-.5" leaves. They fit the budget for most folks around here which is sad because I could really make some of my customers lawns look exceptional if they would open up their pockets a little. It would also help them get the most put of weed/fert program.
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greendoctor
06-25-2012, 11:56 PM
How true. It has been my experience that due to the factors I mentioned, it is not worth it for me to touch a lawn not cut at the correct height of cut. Can't save st augustine that is cut at 2" and can't keep bermuda or zoysia truly green and weed free at 2" either.

Funny someone should mention soccer fields kept at 2" with a rotary mower. The city of Honolulu has been maintaining their municipal sports fields like that. Right now, there is less than 25% bermuda, the rest is dallis grass, goosegrass, and eragrostis. Easily controlled with a heavy fertilization program and a Revolver/Celsius martini, followed by a Sencor shooter. But the fields need to be cut at 3/4" with a reel to scalp out the weakened weed grasses.

RoboMike
06-26-2012, 09:11 AM
Ok Guys, here are my stats from the professional.....

Lawn size: 11450 sq ft ( a little smaller than what I was thinking).
Shrub area: 500 sq ft.
damaged lawn 6,150 sq ft.

Tactic. Fertilize and Aerate the lawn keep placing down preemergent weed control, insect control, etc.. Will take a long time.

that will cost approx 135 per month.

We won't mention my white-fly here ;)

Ok, your thoughts?

Patriot Services
06-26-2012, 09:24 AM
135 a month for chem service plus your mowing service is going to add up quick. Unless you plan on banning the kids from the lawn ,recovery of the SA will be very long in coming. I am sticking to my proposal.
One other note on SA. It is not very frost tolerant. Several years ago we had a long, cold winter and many entire yards of SA died. Bermuda simply comes out of dormancy. Prior to that you can spray anything green (weed) in the dormant Bermuda with Roundup and start the season weed free with no damage to the Bermuda.
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RoboMike
06-26-2012, 09:28 AM
Again I think Patriot has it right!

Florida Gardener
06-26-2012, 10:42 AM
135 a month for chem service plus your mowing service is going to add up quick. Unless you plan on banning the kids from the lawn ,recovery of the SA will be very long in coming. I am sticking to my proposal.
One other note on SA. It is not very frost tolerant. Several years ago we had a long, cold winter and many entire yards of SA died. Bermuda simply comes out of dormancy. Prior to that you can spray anything green (weed) in the dormant Bermuda with Roundup and start the season weed free with no damage to the Bermuda.
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I pretty much agree with all of this. I think the OP is in Boca though. Not going to have to worry about the cold as much as guys from central and north Florida. We barely had to worry about low temps this past winter and I am 45 min north of him. I still say go with the common Bermuda too
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fl-landscapes
06-26-2012, 03:11 PM
Dang fl-landscapes, I was wondering if you were still alive. Where you been? Also, what about ck from Orlando...did he go AWOL?
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All good here diamond, just been busy. Few months back there wasn't anything going on here besides pissing contests and I've been to busy to care to get involved with that nonsense. Hope your well.

Florida Gardener
06-26-2012, 03:15 PM
All good here diamond, just been busy. Few months back there wasn't anything going on here besides pissing contests and I've been to busy to care to get involved with that nonsense. Hope your well.

I figured you was busy, glad to hear. Yea, there's usually a couple of pissing contests lol...
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greendoctor
06-26-2012, 04:51 PM
Again I think Patriot has it right!

In my state, st augustine is not used except in shady lawns. Putting it in full sun in a hot climate just begs for problems. Bermuda is more easily managed in full sun.

RoboMike
06-26-2012, 04:52 PM
That's a great confirmation green doctor, I started nuking some areas 1/2 hour ago. ;)

greendoctor
06-26-2012, 05:14 PM
I never understood trying to keep st augustine alive in sunny areas where bermuda is naturally encroaching. You are doing the right thing. Just remember that st augustine is not used on baseball, football or soccer fields, low cut bermuda is. I could not imagine banning your own kids from playing on the lawn permanently. No need to do that if the lawn is bermuda. It can take it.

Patriot Services
06-26-2012, 05:33 PM
MJLCARE doesn't have kids, animals or play sports.
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greendoctor
06-26-2012, 05:49 PM
Does that mixture tend to smoke Bermuda on the first application or are you still making multiple applications to ensure that it is smoked? I am familiar with RU and fusilade as I use them but what is the third chemcial and roughly what is its cost.

It will smoke the bermuda on the first application. It will also destroy any broadleaf weeds otherwise resistant to glyphosate. Turflon Ester is triclopyr, also sold as Garlon 4. Cost is about $100 a gallon. It does not carry the same stigma as 2.4-D, but it is extremely hard on all warm season grasses except for zoysia. Do not try to use this for selective weed control in bermuda, seashore paspalum or st augustine.

Landscape Poet
06-26-2012, 08:51 PM
It will smoke the bermuda on the first application. It will also destroy any broadleaf weeds otherwise resistant to glyphosate. Turflon Ester is triclopyr, also sold as Garlon 4. Cost is about $100 a gallon. It does not carry the same stigma as 2.4-D, but it is extremely hard on all warm season grasses except for zoysia. Do not try to use this for selective weed control in bermuda, seashore paspalum or st augustine.

I was thinking more for burn out of lawns were Bermuda is present and the new sod will be something other than Bermuda. If it knocks it out in one shot that is great to know. Too many times I have had the lawn sprayed with RU only to have to spray it several more times because the Bermuda pops back up in a week or two and I have to wait at least 2 weeks to ensure that the Bermuda is not coming back to give the client the best chances of the Bermuda will not be back soon. . Which again attest to how strong Bermuda can be.

I often asked why Bermuda was the grass of the south except here in Florida. It did not take long to figure out that Florida is also were the Green Industry is the largest. So we use St. Augustine which requires year round lawn care, keeps the lawn boy employed. It has lots of disease and pest issues which keeps the PCO employed, often these measures can fail which keeps sod layers and sod fields employed.

Florida Gardener
06-26-2012, 09:00 PM
I was thinking more for burn out of lawns were Bermuda is present and the new sod will be something other than Bermuda. If it knocks it out in one shot that is great to know. Too many times I have had the lawn sprayed with RU only to have to spray it several more times because the Bermuda pops back up in a week or two and I have to wait at least 2 weeks to ensure that the Bermuda is not coming back to give the client the best chances of the Bermuda will not be back soon. . Which again attest to how strong Bermuda can be.

I often asked why Bermuda was the grass of the south except here in Florida. It did not take long to figure out that Florida is also were the Green Industry is the largest. So we use St. Augustine which requires year round lawn care, keeps the lawn boy employed. It has lots of disease and pest issues which keeps the PCO employed, often these measures can fail which keeps sod layers and sod fields employed.

IMO, its bc it is cheaper to maintain than the hybrid varieties that need reel cutting and tons more work to keep looking good. Common Bermuda maintained at 2-2.5" with a rotary looks like crap IMO. St aug is the middle of the road that you can have look real good without the high costs of hybrid sports turf.
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Landscape Poet
06-26-2012, 09:11 PM
IMO, its bc it is cheaper to maintain than the hybrid varieties that need reel cutting and tons more work to keep looking good. Common Bermuda maintained at 2-2.5" with a rotary looks like crap IMO. St aug is the middle of the road that you can have look real good without the high costs of hybrid sports turf.
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Accurate points you make I would say but long term do you think SA will be around? Would Bermuda not be the better choice as watering restrictions become more and more as it is not talked about much recently but there will be a day when the restrictions will come more and more strict. Then other than Bahia - would Bermuda not be the best choice because it will go dormant when needed, green up with rain and it obviously recovers quicker than SA if at all from drought. Seashore maybe for the cost.? I don't know but I do know we put a lot of inputs into our lawns here, which is why the people from up north look at us like we are crazy when they figure out what their annual lawn care bill is going to be. I have a guy that just moved here from Michigan. He really struggled with why he was going to pay close to 6k a year for his lawn not including paying the water bill for SA that his HOA made him install when he wanted Bahia.

Florida Gardener
06-26-2012, 09:25 PM
Accurate points you make I would say but long term do you think SA will be around? Would Bermuda not be the better choice as watering restrictions become more and more as it is not talked about much recently but there will be a day when the restrictions will come more and more strict. Then other than Bahia - would Bermuda not be the best choice because it will go dormant when needed, green up with rain and it obviously recovers quicker than SA if at all from drought. Seashore maybe for the cost.? I don't know but I do know we put a lot of inputs into our lawns here, which is why the people from up north look at us like we are crazy when they figure out what their annual lawn care bill is going to be. I have a guy that just moved here from Michigan. He really struggled with why he was going to pay close to 6k a year for his lawn not including paying the water bill for SA that his HOA made him install when he wanted Bahia.
For sure. When that day comes, Bermuda is the best choice. I think one of the biggest problems are the homeowners that won't take the pros advice. So many people want to water their lawn 3-4x/wk ON TOP of rainfall. We all know the end result. Quick story. I had one lady that I controlled the irrigation and she did the fert. She would only need 1-2 sprays for the year. Every winter clover would pop up in random spots. Never chinch bug, sod webworm, fungus, etc. I think this could be the norm if people didn't think they know it all.
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mjlcare2
06-26-2012, 09:44 PM
For sure. When that day comes, Bermuda is the best choice. I think one of the biggest problems are the homeowners that won't take the pros advice. So many people want to water their lawn 3-4x/wk ON TOP of rainfall. We all know the end result. Quick story. I had one lady that I controlled the irrigation and she did the fert. She would only need 1-2 sprays for the year. Every winter clover would pop up in random spots. Never chinch bug, sod webworm, fungus, etc. I think this could be the norm if people didn't think they know it all.
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You get people who want to water 3-4x a week???? Dang.. I'm jealous..

cgaengineer
06-26-2012, 09:49 PM
You get people who want to water 3-4x a week???? Dang.. I'm jealous..

Me too...I have mostly people who never water...rain is enough.
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Florida Gardener
06-26-2012, 09:55 PM
You get people who want to water 3-4x a week???? Dang.. I'm jealous..

I don't, bc I typically control the clock. I do have one that would water that much last yr and the lawn broke out in dollar weed. I told em to water less but they won't listen. The rest let me do my thing. A lot of people around here over water.
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greendoctor
06-27-2012, 04:45 AM
Me too...I have mostly people who never water...rain is enough.
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My most common lawn killers are people that short cycle the irrigation system, not putting down a full inch of water in 7 days with 2 or less waterings. Yes, watering every day will kill a lawn even if it is not flooding it. Next are people that do not maintain an inch of water per 7 days cutting off the irrigation for a week or two just because of a 1/10" sprinkle.

I control the irrigation. Rain sensors are installed. Tampering with the settings I program into the controller are grounds for termination.

cgaengineer
06-27-2012, 05:38 AM
What's the averag daily summer temps in Hawaii?
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greendoctor
06-29-2012, 03:37 AM
What's the averag daily summer temps in Hawaii?
Posted via Mobile Device

High 80s to low 90s are what I see. Keep in mind that this is nothing like Florida or other parts of the continental US. I can expect less than an inch of rain from March to November while the temperatures are where they are at. The wind also blows constantly, adding to the evaporation.

Lawns that are watered deeply 2-3 times a week with a properly set up irrigation system do very well.