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Landscape Poet
06-30-2012, 01:56 PM
Been letting my lawn boy logic get in the way for too long on this one I think. TELL ME IF MY LINE OF THINKING IS INCORRECT HERE.

I have known about attrimec by Gordon's for awhile now, but have always held off on purchasing it because the initial cost. That is until this coming Monday when I will be picking up my first Gallon of it.

After reading the label - the Three major plants I see it being used on (Viburnum and Eugenia and Ligustrum trees/shrubs) call for 2oz per gallon of water = 400 to 600 square foot of shrub.

According the the representatives that I have spoken to I can expect growth ******ation/ not sure why by it would not me use that word but lets call it limited growth, for 3 to 4 months from this application.

I am still working on getting chemical companies to give the best cost but right now if purchasing a gallon my cost per application (again 400 to 600 square ft to label) will be in the mid $2 range.

If I have figured this correctly it does not take much common sense (non lawn boy logic that is) to figure out that you labor saving will be realized very quickly with this product on properties with at least the three shrubs/trees listed above.

Am I missing something or has my lawn boy logic been in the way this entire time? Is the products residual truly that long? Would there not be a niche market with this that those of us with the limited license could offer, say to our existing customer base which maintain there own shrubs as we know they are not doing it because they enjoy it most of the time but rather they simply do not want to pay the cost of having them maintained by someone else.

Thoughts/Opinions on experiences with the product and my non lawn boy line of thinking about the use of this product and potential upsell niche market to potential clients?

williams lcm
06-30-2012, 02:25 PM
Many shrubs at my commericals are having to be cut every other week. They grow like crazy. Does this stuff real slow them down from growing? What about the vines that grow in the shrubs that pop up after a few days from being trimmed. My commericals have about 1hr worth of shrub trimming alone on each property. I think it would be worth it if you don't have to trim for 3 months.

Landscape Poet
06-30-2012, 02:45 PM
Many shrubs at my commericals are having to be cut every other week. They grow like crazy. Does this stuff real slow them down from growing? What about the vines that grow in the shrubs that pop up after a few days from being trimmed. My commericals have about 1hr worth of shrub trimming alone on each property. I think it would be worth it if you don't have to trim for 3 months.

The vines in the shrubs I would assume you would have to know what they are and read the label William. I am assuming you are talking about essentially a weed as it sounds as if they are not wanted there? Would dabbing them with a Round up Solution not be a better long term plan for them - using a sponge dipped in RU or a pvc glue applicator etc so that you only hit the targeted plant?

But to answer you question - assuming the information that I am being given is correct, which is what I am looking for other FL LCO's past experiences with this product in this thread, I would assume if you figure your time is worth $40 to $70 a hour - then it would not take you long to realize a return on your investment in this product - if you are spend that amount of time ( a hr on some properties doing shrubs). It would only make sense if this product works as described as you would essentially be able to just take off a few stray growths with a pair of felco inbetween applications each week and keep them very formal without much man power.

Here is the label - see for yourself if the shrubs you are most often trimming are on the label. As I said there is plenty of use for my three main fast growing shrubs that consistently need trimmed or have spurts of growth which cause a extra trip to the trailer for the trimmer and of course the time to trim and clean up.


William here is a link to the label if you want to review http://www.pbigordon.com/pdfs/Atrimmec-SL.pdf

So anyone with experience want to share? Positive/Negative reviews.

greendoctor
06-30-2012, 03:59 PM
Atrimmec acts by killing the apical meristem. What I find is that there is some phytotoxicity, however the end effect is that the plant stays shorter and fills out. I have used it on stemmy hibiscus for that reason.

In my area, I do not know why growth regulators are unpopular. There is no such thing as leaving cuttings on property or at the curb. Landscapers must pay an arm and a leg for disposal unless they also have a 2 or 3 acre yard where they can dump stuff and let it rot. A rig like my engine drive backpack with disc-core nozzles would be the idea means to apply. 7 gallons applied in 7 minutes.

williams lcm
06-30-2012, 04:55 PM
Around here in my area the accesss clippings get blown under the shrubs(4-6 weeks of growth) If the shrubs are out of control then people bag them up. This is how most lco's do it around here or they blow the clippings into the yard to be mulched up by mower.

greendoctor
06-30-2012, 04:58 PM
Blow anything under the plants and there will be drama. The expectation is that clippings of any kind are cleaned up. Be it grass clippings or hedge/shrub clippings.

Landscape Poet
06-30-2012, 05:59 PM
Blow anything under the plants and there will be drama. The expectation is that clippings of any kind are cleaned up. Be it grass clippings or hedge/shrub clippings.

William has it right that it is a accepted practice to blow short growth trimming right under the shrub. Is this the best practice..no...but it is a commonly accepted practice here by many in the commercial market for sure and even most of the home owner market. The best you can do is inform the consumer of why they should be removed and price it both ways for regular trimmings. The consumer is at least that way given the choice. I do have a few that are willing to pay for the extra time spent cleaning up the debris ...other still who do not but have nice enough looking properties that I will be a regular lawn boy and clean it up for free :hammerhead: just because it bothers me too much, however, there are those that do not care about there properties that are essentially just paying to "have the lawn and shrubs cut" and if they do not care but still want to pay then I figure I am still open for business, there are way too many trailers on the road in Florida for me to tell a customer that I simply would refuse to do it, and I am smart enough not to do it for free on all properties, because I know in the end, if I can not give them the desired look they want at the price the market will bare..someone else will.

Tri-City Outdoors
06-30-2012, 06:02 PM
I can tell you pgr's save you time. Time that you can apply at the next job. New growth is generally smaller and stunted. Making very little debris in the bed to blow under the bushes or in the yard to mulch. The only time we need to bag is when we let the plant gets overgrown or a clean up job. We actually still trim often but it is mostly the eye soars.

Landscape Poet
06-30-2012, 06:16 PM
Atrimmec acts by killing the apical meristem. What I find is that there is some phytotoxicity, however the end effect is that the plant stays shorter and fills out. I have used it on stemmy hibiscus for that reason.

In my area, I do not know why growth regulators are unpopular. There is no such thing as leaving cuttings on property or at the curb. Landscapers must pay an arm and a leg for disposal unless they also have a 2 or 3 acre yard where they can dump stuff and let it rot. A rig like my engine drive backpack with disc-core nozzles would be the idea means to apply. 7 gallons applied in 7 minutes.

I can agree with disposal from your explanation. If it was not commonly accepted to leave for the homeowner to dispose of on their yard waste day here, a lco would incur great cost with waste produced in a given week from the cost of actually having enough space to hold all the debris, the time to dispose of it as well as the cost.

My thoughts with the redirected growth is that it maybe helpful to many of these shrubs, for example the older viburnum, which have been kept small and formal for many many years, all the leaves are on the outside two inches at most, if growth is redirected to create a more dense shrub I can not imagine that being a bad thing.

Landscape Poet
06-30-2012, 06:19 PM
I can tell you pgr's save you time. Time that you can apply at the next job. New growth is generally smaller and stunted. Making very little debris in the bed to blow under the bushes or in the yard to mulch. The only time we need to bag is when we let the plant gets overgrown or a clean up job. We actually still trim often but it is mostly the eye soars.

That has been my understanding so far - the any growth that does occur is small and can be easily removed with a pair a felcos along the way which is not a issue as we always have on us vs going back to the trailer and grabbing the trimmer, then either the blower or the rack and garbage bag. I am hoping that this statements hold true.

How long have you used and does the gordons attrimmic seam to be the best value to you? Any other thoughts? I am starting with this one as I have been told by a few people that it is the best overall bang for the buck.

Patriot Services
06-30-2012, 06:21 PM
I've used Atrimmec for years. Primarily on Viburnum and Holly. Saves a ton of man hours this time of year. Label is spot on for app rate. Beware bounce back if you miss a dose. Yes you will notice more density. Clippings usually disappear when the mulch gets fluffed. Never had a complaint. Its more like green confetti than long clippings.
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Landscape Poet
06-30-2012, 06:43 PM
I've used Atrimmec for years. Primarily on Viburnum and Holly. Saves a ton of man hours this time of year. Label is spot on for app rate. Beware bounce back if you miss a dose. Yes you will notice more density. Clippings usually disappear when the mulch gets fluffed. Never had a complaint. Its more like green confetti than long clippings.
Posted via Mobile Device

So in your experiance, Viburnum, do you experience 3 months or more of controlled growth? Are you allowing a bounce back period or applying again within a targeted time frame to keep them consistently easy to maintain?

Any Experience with Ligustrum and Eugenia ?

Duekster
06-30-2012, 06:56 PM
I have only used Cutless which controls over all growth. I think the one you are talking about controls vertical growth and promote horizontal growth. I think Green Dr alluded to this as well. I have never used it.

Those vines are a PITA and you have to find them and cut then at the ground. If possible pull them but that is not always so easy. Even without a PGR they will cause grief.

I think you can leave some clipping blown back under the shrubs but the lion share should be removed. Clippings can cup water and promote mesquites too.

We can dump them and better yet take them to a mulching facility offered by many land-field operations.
I do get tired to pay for stuff to be mulched and paying to buy the mulch but such is life.

Nothing should go down the storm drains. It is against the federal law. While it maybe common practice, you do not want to be the guy that makes the headlines when the government decides to send a message. Clients also want to seen as greener. If you want to shred and mulch then that is another program.

Some times it takes a few applications for the PGR's to kick in. I hit myown shrubs and they did not grow much for 18 months. They do work but it varies by plant type and app rate. Clip and treat per the lable, often they should happen at the same time or within 10 days.

Patriot Services
06-30-2012, 07:13 PM
So in your experiance, Viburnum, do you experience 3 months or more of controlled growth? Are you allowing a bounce back period or applying again within a targeted time frame to keep them consistently easy to maintain?

Any Experience with Ligustrum and Eugenia ?

3 months is about right. Tried it on Ligustrums with good results too. Just keep the app even. No idea on the Eugenia. I've had some Viburnum that haven't been majorly trimmed in 3 years. Waiting a week after trimming before applying eliminates any yellowing or browning.
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Landscape Poet
06-30-2012, 07:53 PM
3 months is about right. Tried it on Ligustrums with good results too. Just keep the app even. No idea on the Eugenia. I've had some Viburnum that haven't been majorly trimmed in 3 years. Waiting a week after trimming before applying eliminates any yellowing or browning.
Posted via Mobile Device

Thanks for the info. The Rep told me it is best to treat right after they have been trimmed. The label say dependent on look desired formal or natural that you can wait up to three days. This is the type of advice I was looking for - real life tried and true experience.

Thanks for all that have had input up to this and I would appreciate any additional inputs from those that have used (good or bad) but as for now it is sounding like a win/win situation. :cool2:

Duekster
06-30-2012, 09:52 PM
Thanks for the info. The Rep told me it is best to treat right after they have been trimmed. The label say dependent on look desired formal or natural that you can wait up to three days. This is the type of advice I was looking for - real life tried and true experience.

Thanks for all that have had input up to this and I would appreciate any additional inputs from those that have used (good or bad) but as for now it is sounding like a win/win situation. :cool2:

FWIW, cutless is a granular so the yellowing is not an issue.

Landscape Poet
06-30-2012, 10:13 PM
FWIW, cutless is a granular so the yellowing is not an issue.

A granular would be a good approach but I am comfortable with the liquid as I do a good amount of fert and pest control on the shrubs and liquids is my primary method because I can ensure a good micro blend is being added.

Would you happen to have rough estimates on our cost per say every 100 square foot of shrubs with the cutless?

Duekster
06-30-2012, 10:28 PM
A granular would be a good approach but I am comfortable with the liquid as I do a good amount of fert and pest control on the shrubs and liquids is my primary method because I can ensure a good micro blend is being added.

Would you happen to have rough estimates on our cost per say every 100 square foot of shrubs with the cutless?I spray everything except cutless.

I will have to look up my cost in the AM

greendoctor
07-01-2012, 01:39 AM
I can agree with disposal from your explanation. If it was not commonly accepted to leave for the homeowner to dispose of on their yard waste day here, a lco would incur great cost with waste produced in a given week from the cost of actually having enough space to hold all the debris, the time to dispose of it as well as the cost.

My thoughts with the redirected growth is that it maybe helpful to many of these shrubs, for example the older viburnum, which have been kept small and formal for many many years, all the leaves are on the outside two inches at most, if growth is redirected to create a more dense shrub I can not imagine that being a bad thing.

The homeowners here have zero tolerance for any debris left in the landscape. If you tell them that leaving clippings under the shrubs is good for them, they will think you are too lazy to clean them up and they will find someone who will pick up everything. Same is true of grass clippings. Because of this, there is no such thing as a cheap lawn and if the lawn is 1/4 acre or more then the price does not come down due to size because of then need to pick up. Where it gets funny are the properties where they are chock full of palms and shrubs. You actually do not want that kind of account because people do not realize how bulky and hard to handle the trash is. Now if there were a safe way to stunt palm trees, I would be very happy. I hate palms. Do not like to see them in residential landscapes at all.

Duekster
07-01-2012, 09:31 AM
A granular would be a good approach but I am comfortable with the liquid as I do a good amount of fert and pest control on the shrubs and liquids is my primary method because I can ensure a good micro blend is being added.

Would you happen to have rough estimates on our cost per say every 100 square foot of shrubs with the cutless?

As a follow up.

again dose depends on plant height mass and how woody. More woody means more product.

Non-woody about $3 per 100 sf
Woody about $5.00 per 100 sf.

You need to trim within a few days of application and will likely need a couple of dose before you see a major change. From there light touch up twice a year should do it.

Sounds higher than your product

jvanvliet
07-01-2012, 09:53 AM
I want a PGR that has significant efficacy on ficus!

Landscape Poet
08-17-2014, 06:05 PM
Just to revisit this topic. ...I have been using it with great results after some issues. For us we tried going on the lower side of the recommendation and using the 2 oz per gallon on the viburnum and while they did slow growth they did not do so in a manner which was acceptable to us in terms of what we thought it should do. Slower growth ment we were tipping he shrubs and not actually trimming per say...but still the time of going over there and using the manpower to perform that was against the point of the product.

We then moved up to the higher rate of 3 oz per gallon directly after trimming viburnum. It is every thing I hoped it would be, very very limited growth and on some of our higher value homes, with them being surrounded with viburnums......it has paid for itself very easily.

My question that remains however is that the label says 2oz for ligustrum and eugenia ....anyone every try the 3 oz rate on these two so you are not mixing up separate batches? The ligustrums if not cared for by a L and O company seem to hold very well....if they are getting treated then it does slow the trimming needs at the 2oz rate but does not limit it like it does with the 3 oz rate on viburnums. Your experiences.

I did try like greendoctor said he did on some leggy hibiscus with good results too. I am sure it helped that I pruned them pretty hard right before as well....but it did work.

Patriot Services
08-17-2014, 06:40 PM
In hindsight aren't you glad you didn't go the granular route with all the rain we've had?
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Landscape Poet
08-17-2014, 08:43 PM
In hindsight aren't you glad you didn't go the granular route with all the rain we've had?
Posted via Mobile Device

Yes...it was challenging to get this sprayed at times with our rains. Sometimes we would trim a large hedge row ...it would be sun shinning and hot when we started the property....25 minutes later when finishing up....we were looking at rain clouds approaching. This stuff is not cheap so rather than risk it we would hold off and touch up shrubs at a later date and then spray. Overall ...good product with great results on the 3 oz rate for us on viburnum. If it was cheaper it would be great...but as in the rest of life good things tend to cost money.

Weekend cut easymoney
08-17-2014, 08:58 PM
Many shrubs at my commericals are having to be cut every other week. They grow like crazy. Does this stuff real slow them down from growing? What about the vines that grow in the shrubs that pop up after a few days from being trimmed. My commericals have about 1hr worth of shrub trimming alone on each property. I think it would be worth it if you don't have to trim for 3 months.

How often are you watering the plants?

Patriot Services
08-17-2014, 09:15 PM
How often are you watering the plants?

Nature has been drowning us almost daily. Plus the 90% humidity creates our very own greenhouse environment. Great joy to work in.
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Keith
08-18-2014, 12:00 AM
Cutless G has always held my viburnum quite well. But I was stunned at how well Atrimmec holds silverthorn.

Tri-City Outdoors
08-18-2014, 09:14 AM
For ligustrum we have used the 2oz/gallon.

However we wet the entire plant until the point of drip and then go back over again once it is dry. The 2nd application is focused on the top of the plant. On hot days and/or a heavy 2nd app. we have seen some burn. The next go around we are going to try the 2nd application in a few weeks after the 1st to see if that give us the control with out the burn.

Weekend cut easymoney
08-23-2014, 09:57 AM
Nature has been drowning us almost daily. Plus the 90% humidity creates our very own greenhouse environment. Great joy to work in.
Posted via Mobile Device

I forget that other partsfof the country get plenty of rain...we got humidity and heat, just scant rain...years ago when not much thought was given to watering every day on properties we'd kill ourselves trying to keep plants trimmed...then chenged to twice each week and magically less trimming was needed....
That wouldn't apply where your at with all the rain

Patriot Services
08-23-2014, 11:58 AM
Yea, we can't prune things into submission.
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Landscape Poet
08-24-2014, 07:16 PM
For ligustrum we have used the 2oz/gallon.

However we wet the entire plant until the point of drip and then go back over again once it is dry. The 2nd application is focused on the top of the plant. On hot days and/or a heavy 2nd app. we have seen some burn. The next go around we are going to try the 2nd application in a few weeks after the 1st to see if that give us the control with out the burn.

That is what I was wondering about. The burn potential. I am interested to see how your second application a few weeks apart holds. That is what we have tried after using 2oz on viburnum and not getting the stiffer hold we want...so we went to the three oz per app. Interested in seeing if you have the same result with the 2 oz apps overlapping more.