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Georgia Lawn Works LLC
06-30-2012, 03:30 PM
What's the advantages of doing this?


I'm sure reduced pressure loss for long/complicated runs is one of them because you can run the main from the meter to the valve that way the supply would be closer to the run.


Any other reasons?
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Duekster
06-30-2012, 03:32 PM
Pros and cons to both.

I personally space them out.

Wet_Boots
06-30-2012, 03:35 PM
Trenching PVC or plowing poly? Poly people go with manifolds.

Georgia Lawn Works LLC
06-30-2012, 03:35 PM
I like the cleaner look of having them all in one location. But I'm going to be doing a install on my property and it just would not make sense to do it that way. It would be way more complicated as well.


Just figured I'd ask. Any one else?
Posted via Mobile Device

Georgia Lawn Works LLC
06-30-2012, 03:36 PM
PVC is going to be installed.
Posted via Mobile Device

Duekster
06-30-2012, 03:36 PM
I like the cleaner look of having them all in one location. But I'm going to be doing a install on my property and it just would not make sense to do it that way. It would be way more complicated as well.


Just figured I'd ask. Any one else?
Posted via Mobile Device


I do not see it as more complicated. I just see it harder to replace a valve if needed later.

FIMCO-MEISTER
06-30-2012, 03:37 PM
Space them out and put them in the midpoint of your zones.

Georgia Lawn Works LLC
06-30-2012, 03:38 PM
Due to the location I would want to put the valve box at it would make the design more complicated. More angles ect. Possible pressure issues as well because its a big yard. But not really harder as far as the install goes.
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Duekster
06-30-2012, 03:40 PM
Space them out and put them in the midpoint of your zones.

Best practice.

mrsteve
06-30-2012, 04:20 PM
Best practice.
Best for sure, you can't split an end fed valve, should that every be needed.

Duekster
06-30-2012, 04:24 PM
Best for sure, you can't split an end fed valve, should that every be needed.

I am missing something? end fed valve? Splitting?

mrsteve
06-30-2012, 04:33 PM
You know, say it doesn't perform as designed. If the valve is in the middle it could be split into two separate stations fairly easy. Just set another valve and pick up the spare wire or use an add a zone to control it. You just halved your demand.

Duekster
06-30-2012, 04:35 PM
You know, say it doesn't perform as designed. If the valve is in the middle it could be split into two separate stations fairly easy. Just set another valve and pick up the spare wire or use an add a zone to control it. You just halved your demand.

Never heard it called like that but good point.

I wish more installers included spare wire and installed valves in the middle of the zone.

Mdirrigation
06-30-2012, 10:29 PM
I do not see it as more complicated. I just see it harder to replace a valve if needed later.


Not if you build the assembly correctly . Generally if you cant relpace the guts of the valve or the body has a problem , replace the valve . When we have a valve manifold with a problem valve , odds are the rest of the valves will have the same problem . Therefore we replace them all with new at that point.

Duekster
06-30-2012, 10:40 PM
Not if you build the assembly correctly . Generally if you cant relpace the guts of the valve or the body has a problem , replace the valve . When we have a valve manifold with a problem valve , odds are the rest of the valves will have the same problem . Therefore we replace them all with new at that point.

Ok but then how do you adress the excellant point by MrSteve?

I can guess but nonetheless

jvanvliet
07-01-2012, 10:04 AM
Again no information, (unless I missed it). How large of an area, how many zones, how big is the meter, PVB, the main, what's his PSI, what's his GPM. what make & size valve, what's his longest run?

On a small installation (6 zones or less) does it really make sense to trench for a main, pull all that wire, then dig for field valves & trench laterals?

Just finished a small job, 6 zones. 1.5" irritrol valves split 2 manifolds 2 field boxes 3 valves each @ the pump station. Spaced the valves enough to be able to spin them out if necesary. Another job, 4 zones; 1.5" irritrol valves on a single manifold in a jumbo field box @ the pump station, spaced to be able to spin out the valves if necesary.

(there's a three valve manifold in that jumbo box in the 2nd pic.)

Kiril
07-01-2012, 10:51 AM
Best practice.

Why .... and explain mathematically in terms of hydraulics.

Ok but then how do you adress the excellant point by MrSteve?

Design the system right the first time.

Wet_Boots
07-01-2012, 11:21 AM
somebody stole the solenoids

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=252142&stc=1&d=1341147695

Duekster
07-01-2012, 11:40 AM
Why .... and explain mathematically in terms of hydraulics.



Design the system right the first time.

In terms of hydraulics both can be designed properly but you already knew that.

In terms of having the valve closer to the point of use for starts,

Less volume of water to weep at lowest point.
Less static head pressure on slopes.

Rainbird 1800 Sams specs say 14 feet,
Hunter PRO specs say 10 feet.

Technline CV is about 5 or 6 feet IIRCC.



Designing correctly is a no brainer but there seems to be a lot of no brainer designs too. Calling this best practice you avoid excessive weeping in cheap systems using standard heads and the problems associated with the recharging.

More likely to be able to successful up-grade with check in heads on systems on slopes.

If the HO's decides to install a flower bed in part of the zone, you can split the zone easier if there is a spare wire and the valve is in the middle of the station. In other words, it provides more options in the future.

May not be a whole lot better but it is better. I know you would take into account all those things when designing. If need be, you would move the valve to a similar elevation of the zone as a matter of best practice and perhaps not even need to include a in head check.

irrig8r
07-01-2012, 11:42 AM
Best practice.

This can still be done with multiple manifolds.

In a large yard we always put 3 (if 1 inch) valves to a box, nearest their runs, with one shutoff and sometimes a hose bib or quick coupler too.

Sometimes two boxes of valves next to each other depending on the setup.

Drip zone valves: one or two max to a box, run lengthwise with room for the filter and PR.

And out here we use PVC and poly is only for drip.

Kiril
07-01-2012, 12:00 PM
In terms of having the valve closer to the point of use for starts

Place your manifold within site of the zones it controls

Less volume of water to weep at lowest point.

Not a good reason. Properly placed manifolds and use of appropriate materials will make this a non-issue.

Less static head pressure on slopes.

See last answer.

Designing correctly is a no brainer but there seems to be a lot of no brainer designs too. Calling this best practice you avoid excessive weeping in cheap systems using standard heads and the problems associated with the recharging.

See last answer

More likely to be able to successful up-grade with check in heads on systems on slopes.

If the HO's decides to install a flower bed in part of the zone, you can split the zone easier if there is a spare wire and the valve is in the middle of the station. In other words, it provides more options in the future.

See last answer

May not be a whole lot better but it is better. I know you would take into account all those things when designing. If need be, you would move the valve to a similar elevation of the zone as a matter of best practice and perhaps not even need to include a in head check.

This is a matter of opinion, not a statement of fact, which is why I asked you to demonstrate mathematically in terms of hydraulics.

mrsteve
07-01-2012, 12:05 PM
Why .... and explain mathematically in terms of hydraulics.



Design the system right the first time.
Hydraulics are a known quantity and can be figured both ways just fine. It may be a bit of a geographic situation. Here we mostly trench (rocks etc.) and a center fed valve reduces pipe size and leaves options if needed. Say the pressure changes after the system is in (variety of reasons) and now your design is weak. You can make changes to lesson the demand if center fed. I see way too many residential systems that can't stand one more head added. Say the landscape is modified and you need another head or two for better coverage, sorry Charlie. I just like to keep my options open, maybe a different climate and location kind of thinking. We are all different. I've never seen a barbed valve except for drip tubing.

Wet_Boots
07-01-2012, 12:10 PM
We are the Poly People

HjOhJigFSzk

Duekster
07-01-2012, 12:13 PM
So Kril, you are saying to install the manifold within the zone it controls?
Granted, it is not centered but that is a long shot from the way many irrigation systems are manifolded.

Kiril
07-01-2012, 12:26 PM
Hydraulics are a known quantity and can be figured both ways just fine. It may be a bit of a geographic situation. Here we mostly trench (rocks etc.) and a center fed valve reduces pipe size and leaves options if needed. Say the pressure changes after the system is in (variety of reasons) and now your design is weak. You can make changes to lesson the demand if center fed. I see way too many residential systems that can't stand one more head added. Say the landscape is modified and you need another head or two for better coverage, sorry Charlie. I just like to keep my options open, maybe a different climate and location kind of thinking. We are all different. I've never seen a barbed valve except for drip tubing.

Again, properly design the system to begin with.

Kiril
07-01-2012, 12:34 PM
So Kril, you are saying to install the manifold within the zone it controls?

I am saying install the manifold within eye site of the zones it controls.


Granted, it is not centered but that is a long shot from the way many irrigation systems are manifolded.

It can be centered with respect to the zones it controls, however why does it need to be centered? This is why I asked for the mathematics, and is why I ask for the mathematics every time I see someone say scattering valves all over the property is superior to manifolds.

Out here in manifold central, even the poorly designed systems typically have a manifold for front and back yards for postage stamp residential lots. For larger lots, manifolds are typically "centrally" located (not the same as centered) with respect to the zones it controls.

Duekster
07-01-2012, 12:52 PM
I am saying install the manifold within eye site of the zones it controls.




It can be centered with respect to the zones it controls, however why does it need to be centered? This is why I asked for the mathematics, and is why I ask for the mathematics every time I see someone say scattering valves all over the property is superior to manifolds.

Out here in manifold central, even the poorly designed systems typically have a manifold for front and back yards for postage stamp residential lots. For larger lots, manifolds are typically "centrally" located (not the same as centered) with respect to the zones it controls.

There is no mathmatical reason as you well know. In some respects, I like having the control valve outside of the station area. I can then excercise the valve without getting soaked.


It is far easier to say "connect the valve to the center of the station as best practice" but this does not mean the valve has to physically located in the center of the station.

Kiril
07-01-2012, 01:02 PM
It is far easier to say "connect the valve to the center of the station as best practice" but this does not mean the valve has to physically located in the center of the station.

In the past, as a justification/defense for a scattered valve nightmare, some have stated on this forum that centering the valve with respect to downstream laterals produces superior performance.

I will note however there are some cases where isolated valves are warranted for hydraulic reasons. Will 99.9% of the people who contribute to/read this forum ever see this ..... not likely.

Duekster
07-01-2012, 01:06 PM
There is no reason to scatter valves for the sake of scattering.

The valve should however be within 10 feet of the same elevation and less if practical.

The practice of manifolding has more site condition reasons to abondon it than does placing the valve closer to the point of use.

However, given multiple stations have similar site conditions then cluster or manifold them. Just space them in a decent sized box.

jvanvliet
07-01-2012, 02:05 PM
All of this is BS since nobody knows what the OP has...

jvanvliet
07-01-2012, 02:07 PM
somebody stole the solenoids

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=252142&stc=1&d=1341147695

Damn... that's why it's not working.

Actually getting ready to flush the pipe solenoid ports and valves prior to welding.

FIMCO-MEISTER
07-01-2012, 03:41 PM
If you space the valves then centering them makes them easier to find. Centered valves that immediately split into a tee have less water hammer issues. Lot easier to keep your valve as the low point of the zone when it's centered and to keep water on both sides of the valve. Like boots says pulling pipe manifolds make way more sense. Contractors that have to use ASV valves are forced to keep those lined up against the house.

Wet_Boots
07-01-2012, 04:04 PM
still waiting for the Texas ASV install :)

1idejim
07-01-2012, 04:15 PM
Posted via Mobile Device

Wet_Boots
07-01-2012, 04:18 PM
Posted via Baby Turtle

Duekster
07-01-2012, 04:27 PM
still waiting for the Texas ASV install :)

Hold your breath too

Oxmow
07-01-2012, 05:12 PM
I have almost always manifolded my valves. Although I started out using threaded valves in case one shoud "go bad" after doing this for more than a few years, i have realized that most (not all) of the time the valve body isn't the problem.
Most of the postage stamp lawns I do have the manifold next to the backflow. (4-6 zones)
So is it wrong of me to call the "scattered" valves the "Texas method"? Every commercial landscape plan I have put in for a commercial property here in Okla that has been drawn by a Texas architect has scattered valves.
It does seem that alot of the houses here have the water supply on the opposite side of the house than the garage where I typically put the controller. This causes me to have to go around the house with control wire, rather than a charged supply pipe.

DanaMac
07-01-2012, 05:23 PM
Mostly manifolds here in CO poly country. Now, on large installs, good companies might have 2-4 manifolds scattered around the property. I hate having 10-16 valves or so, all at one spot.

Duekster
07-01-2012, 05:26 PM
I have almost always manifolded my valves. Although I started out using threaded valves in case one shoud "go bad" after doing this for more than a few years, i have realized that most (not all) of the time the valve body isn't the problem.
Most of the postage stamp lawns I do have the manifold next to the backflow. (4-6 zones)
So is it wrong of me to call the "scattered" valves the "Texas method"? Every commercial landscape plan I have put in for a commercial property here in Okla that has been drawn by a Texas architect has scattered valves.
It does seem that alot of the houses here have the water supply on the opposite side of the house than the garage where I typically put the controller. This causes me to have to go around the house with control wire, rather than a charged supply pipe.

Seems to be the case very often.

mrsteve
07-01-2012, 05:50 PM
I have almost always manifolded my valves. Although I started out using threaded valves in case one shoud "go bad" after doing this for more than a few years, i have realized that most (not all) of the time the valve body isn't the problem.
Most of the postage stamp lawns I do have the manifold next to the backflow. (4-6 zones)
So is it wrong of me to call the "scattered" valves the "Texas method"? Every commercial landscape plan I have put in for a commercial property here in Okla that has been drawn by a Texas architect has scattered valves.
It does seem that alot of the houses here have the water supply on the opposite side of the house than the garage where I typically put the controller. This causes me to have to go around the house with control wire, rather than a charged supply pipe.
It's scattered and smothered at the waffle house.

FIMCO-MEISTER
07-01-2012, 06:42 PM
Posted via Baby Turtle

Watching a replay of the 1963 Newport festival wondering if you were there.

CAPT Stream Rotar
07-01-2012, 07:19 PM
Manifold, pulled poly.

what is the reason why the southerners don't use poly pipe?

Duekster
07-01-2012, 07:30 PM
Manifold, pulled poly.

what is the reason why the southerners don't use poly pipe?

Hard soil and rocks for the most part.

CAPT Stream Rotar
07-01-2012, 07:42 PM
have you ever tried it?

I'm assuming the poly gets cut on the rocks?

Duekster
07-01-2012, 07:47 PM
have you ever tried it?

I'm assuming the poly gets cut on the rocks?

I have not tried it. I have seen one company doing it and asked about it but they did not speak english.

I am sure it works in some areas and in others a trencher will not work. You need a jack hammer.

muddywater
07-01-2012, 07:47 PM
I would advise to do all manifolds. Be sure to butt the valves right up to the Ts and butt all of the Ts to each other on the main line.

My favorite phone call to get from a tech, "well boss we have to cut out this manifold" Cha-ching cha-ching!!

Seriously if done right with plenty of spacing it is fine, but sometimes it is more efficient to put them out in the yard to reduce pvc cost.

Duekster
07-01-2012, 07:51 PM
I would advise to do all manifolds. Be sure to butt the valves right up to the Ts and butt all of the Ts to each other on the main line.

My favorite phone call to get from a tech, "well boss we have to cut out this manifold" Cha-ching cha-ching!!
Seriously if done right with plenty of spacing it is fine, but sometimes it is more efficient to put them out in the yard to reduce pvc cost.

I love explaining high cost because of install practices.

agrostis
07-01-2012, 07:54 PM
I have never even seen poly pipe for sale around here, i have never seen anyone pull pipe either. I have alway's trenched. I don't think those pipe pulling machine's would even start to work in this area.

greendoctor
07-01-2012, 07:56 PM
My favorite is all glue fittings with not a union in sight. More than one plastic valve in a manifold and no unions on both ends. $$$$$$$$$$. With two unions, it is a matter of undo unions, unthread the nipples from the valves, rethread them into the new valves and drop back into place. Cut and couple. OK, that is fine if you are digging in sandy loam with no coral, and palm tree roots all around the valve area.

CAPT Stream Rotar
07-01-2012, 08:05 PM
unions are sweet...I have never put one in :(

Duekster
07-01-2012, 08:09 PM
unions are sweet...I have never put one in :(

They are too expensive when you can cut out the problem. Provided some jack leg installer has not solvent welded more expensive devices too close together.

CAPT Stream Rotar
07-01-2012, 08:10 PM
I wish my boss would start paying for them.

greendoctor
07-01-2012, 08:12 PM
I use them because the alternative is to dig out a huge area with an excavator so you can bend couplers back onto pipe. Palm tree roots and coral is no fun.

During an initial install, it makes it easier to fit things. Threading MAs into a valve is a risky proposition. Too tight and you blow the valve, too lose, it leaks. Unions and sch 80 nipples cuts that out.

CAPT Stream Rotar
07-01-2012, 08:14 PM
I also thing sch nipples would be a huge plus to my arsenal.

greendoctor
07-01-2012, 08:16 PM
If I had a dollar for every time a sch 40 MA either blew out the threads on the valve, cracked on the shoulder between the socket part-threads or leaked due to not being sealed/tightened enough.

CAPT Stream Rotar
07-01-2012, 08:17 PM
Poly pipe por vida.

greendoctor
07-01-2012, 08:18 PM
Lucky man. Poly does not like to be pulled through coral, palm tree roots, and rocks.

Duekster
07-01-2012, 08:19 PM
We use slip valves in Texas. Nipples and threaded fittings are pretty much at the POC only

CAPT Stream Rotar
07-01-2012, 08:20 PM
greendoctor- i feel bad for your trencher teeth.

greendoctor
07-01-2012, 08:21 PM
Trenches often have to be made with jackhammers or excavators. A trencher bucks and yanks like a branded bull.

greendoctor
07-01-2012, 08:22 PM
We use slip valves in Texas. Nipples and threaded fittings are pretty much at the POC only

A valve installed with MAs is as good as a slip valve. $$$$$$$ if there are no unions.

FIMCO-MEISTER
07-01-2012, 08:24 PM
Poly falls apart like a Hong Kong suitcase in Texas.

CAPT Stream Rotar
07-01-2012, 08:29 PM
tejas is wack.

Duekster
07-01-2012, 08:32 PM
A valve installed with MAs is as good as a slip valve. $$$$$$$ if there are no unions.

I admit, MA's mean what?

greendoctor
07-01-2012, 08:34 PM
Sorry. sch 40 male adapters.

Duekster
07-01-2012, 08:40 PM
Sorry. sch 40 male adapters.

Gotcha,

What I found early on is the Slip valve is cheaper and in stock.

Never had a problem with slip valves except early on when I got glue in the valve port. I was helped here on lawn site. ;)

greendoctor
07-01-2012, 08:44 PM
I pray that a slip valve or a valve that is installed with MA's never fails. It is a hassle for me and an unexpected expense for the client.

Duekster
07-01-2012, 08:51 PM
I pray that a slip valve or a valve that is installed with MA's never fails. It is a hassle for me and an unexpected expense for the client.

Most of our systems are installed pre 2009. If the POC is not up to current code a valve failure means up grading the point of connection. That is a shock to most HO's

greendoctor
07-01-2012, 08:57 PM
Oh yes. I have come across systems with no backflow protection. On residential properties, the national and local codes are not enforced. However, the last inline valve I touched without an RPZ before it got fitted with an AVB. The last repair of ASVs below the highest head was redone with an RPZ at the POC. I do not need an inspector standing over me, a an 8 hour test or the threat of fines to do the right thing.

Duekster
07-01-2012, 09:08 PM
Oh yes. I have come across systems with no backflow protection. On residential properties, the national and local codes are not enforced. However, the last inline valve I touched without an RPZ before it got fitted with an AVB. The last repair of ASVs below the highest head was redone with an RPZ at the POC. I do not need an inspector standing over me, a an 8 hour test or the threat of fines to do the right thing.



They could have a back flow but a main like leak means an up grade. Takes a $250 repair to 1200 or more.

greendoctor
07-01-2012, 09:12 PM
Because my main business is spraying, I consider lawns and landscape water lines high hazard. RPZ or correctly used ASVs only.

greenmonster304
07-01-2012, 09:15 PM
Most of our systems are installed pre 2009. If the POC is not up to current code a valve failure means up grading the point of connection. That is a shock to most HO's

is this on you to enforce?

Duekster
07-01-2012, 09:16 PM
is this on you to enforce?

Sure seems like it :cry:

greendoctor
07-01-2012, 09:18 PM
Police thyself or someone will do it for you. No guarantee that someone else will be fair and reasonable about it either.

Duekster
07-01-2012, 09:38 PM
Police thyself or someone will do it for you. No guarantee that someone else will be fair and reasonable about it either.

Oh, I went to Dallas to put a R&R perment of the back flow. Took me 3 hours because I had no drawing. Did not need one for the R&R of the POC. Had to meet with the plumbing / mech super.

Got the permit, discussed the fact it was this hard then no one was pulling permits, he agreed and shrugged it off.

I got a red tag, no drawings and he wanted to see the system operate. Explined it was an R&R of the POC bringing up to code. Inspector called some one. said opps.

We have rules , we have training, we have license, we have few teeth.

greendoctor
07-01-2012, 09:42 PM
That was still a tremendous waste of your time. I do not need all of that and a permit and inspector to do the right thing. Sadly, I understand why things have come that far. I see some horrible stuff here. Good thing no one got sick or dead from it. My favorite is burying ASVs to "hide" them. Then my discussion is to either raise them to the proper height or install inline valves and an RPZ.

Duekster
07-01-2012, 09:49 PM
That was still a tremendous waste of your time. I do not need all of that and a permit and inspector to do the right thing. Sadly, I understand why things have come that far. I see some horrible stuff here. Good thing no one got sick or dead from it. My favorite is burying ASVs to "hide" them. Then my discussion is to either raise them to the proper height or install inline valves and an RPZ.

We can use DCA's but they now want Wye's on the inlet side ( to protect them from City water debris) and an isolation valve added to service the Wye.

Some areas want RP's. RP's are typically required where back pressure is expected or where chemigation is used.

greendoctor
07-01-2012, 09:53 PM
I believe I as strict with a repair or install as most municipalities. DCVAs are a no for me. Not good if the water line goes up hill. ASVs are ok when used correctly. RPZ is great when installed correctly as well. No call for burying anything deep in the ground. It does not freeze here. I want an RPZ high enough off the ground so that the vent valve is nowhere near the ground.

Duekster
07-01-2012, 09:58 PM
I believe I as strict with a repair or install as most municipalities. DCVAs are a no for me. Not good if the water line goes up hill. ASVs are ok when used correctly. RPZ is great when installed correctly as well. No call for burying anything deep in the ground. It does not freeze here. I want an RPZ high enough off the ground so that the vent valve is nowhere near the ground.

RPZ has to be 12" about highest elevation in Irrigation. In mechanical installs, just above grade not at the highest point. IE Fire Riser, it can be at the ground level or even basement of a high rise but above the finished floor.

greendoctor
07-01-2012, 10:01 PM
It ain't dead so why are so many intent on burying it?

Duekster
07-01-2012, 10:05 PM
It ain't dead so why are so many intent on burying it?

Next to the meter and street. Lilely too keep auto insurance rates down cause I would charge them the full price to replace it. :laugh:

greendoctor
07-01-2012, 10:08 PM
RPZ close to the road is often fortified and caged to withstand mechanical damage. Other reason is that the crackheads will cut off an RPZ to pawn the brass.

Duekster
07-01-2012, 10:20 PM
RPZ close to the road is often fortified and caged to withstand mechanical damage. Other reason is that the crackheads will cut off an RPZ to pawn the brass.Not practical on our small lots'

greendoctor
07-01-2012, 10:25 PM
It is allowed to install an RP after the POC but before the control valves here. Residential RP is usually close to the structure or behind a wall or fence. Commerical RP goes in a cage.

FIMCO-MEISTER
07-01-2012, 10:28 PM
One of the reasons among many that I sold my biz and bailed on Texas irrigation after 30 years was due to the POC upgrade if a mainline was cut into. I just didn't have the stomach to tell customers I'd had for 15+ years the valve replacement was now going to cost 1500.00 because of some new state requirement. Figured I'd let someone else be the bad guy and come back 5 years later if I so desired to reclaim them all.

Duekster
07-01-2012, 11:01 PM
One of the reasons among many that I sold my biz and bailed on Texas irrigation after 30 years was due to the POC upgrade if a mainline was cut into. I just didn't have the stomach to tell customers I'd had for 15+ years the valve replacement was now going to cost 1500.00 because of some new state requirement. Figured I'd let someone else be the bad guy and come back 5 years later if I so desired to reclaim them all.

It bites a big one. Particularly when the City does not even enforce the annual testing.

Mdirrigation
07-02-2012, 09:49 PM
Ok but then how do you adress the excellant point by MrSteve?

I can guess but nonetheless

Whats your point ?