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duckworth
07-05-2012, 11:40 PM
Does anyone use this hi tech devise and if so were do you find a good 5 gallon + bucket or is everyone using toro gauge any advise out there?

GreenI.A.
07-05-2012, 11:53 PM
I use a gauge, but usually do it into a bucket as well as a double check. Usually only measure out a gallon into the 5 gallon bucket

mitchgo
07-05-2012, 11:55 PM
Never done it

Utilize the water meter.

If it's a well use a flow meter or install a temp ( or perm) deduct meter

1idejim
07-06-2012, 12:06 AM
Search for betterwater.com ML has one and recommends it highly
Posted via Mobile Device

AI Inc
07-06-2012, 05:48 AM
I use em all the time. Plenty accurate as you should not be designing on the edge anyways.

jvanvliet
07-06-2012, 06:09 AM
I keep a bucket on the trailer and the boat :D

greenmonster304
07-06-2012, 06:33 AM
I do this after the tap. I have a ball valve with a pressure gauge up stream of it that I atatch to some poly that connects to the POC. I turn the water on and restrict the flow with the ball valve to 45 lbs if the back flow is installed or 55 lbs if it hasn't. Then time how long to fill the bucket. I do this for small 1" systems for big ones I have a flow meter that starts at 25 gpm.
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Mike Leary
07-06-2012, 01:02 PM
Search for betterwater.com ML has one and recommends it highly

Glad to oblige; it's a great tool, every man jack should have one.

www.betterwaterind.com/flowmeter.html

Mike Leary
07-06-2012, 01:12 PM
For larger system measurements and 24 hour logging, we also had two of these bad boys.

www.badgermeter.com/Industrial/Impeller-Products/Monitors/3000-3100-Series.aspx

txirrigation
07-06-2012, 05:14 PM
We take a static pressure reading, then look at the meter size... it's Math from there.

Taking flow measurements at a hose bib is NOT accurate. You have no idea what the plumber has done to restrict the lines in the house. Also hose bibs are usually 1/2 fed by a 1/2in poly line, which will effect your readings.

Mike Leary
07-06-2012, 05:17 PM
We take a static pressure reading, then look at the meter size... it's Math from there.

Not sure how that computes, how do you know what the supply gpm is? Static is just that: no flow.

jcom
07-06-2012, 10:18 PM
We hacks and pikers in ND always use the bucket test when there is any doubt.

It has NEVER failed us yet. Hard to argue with facts/numbers.

Juan

DanaMac
07-06-2012, 10:23 PM
I have better uses for my bucket

blakescape
07-06-2012, 10:56 PM
We take a static pressure reading, then look at the meter size... it's Math from there.

Taking flow measurements at a hose bib is NOT accurate. You have no idea what the plumber has done to restrict the lines in the house. Also hose bibs are usually 1/2 fed by a 1/2in poly line, which will effect your readings.

The diameter of a pipe will affect the pressure and velocity, but not the flow rate(conservation of mass).

http://www.engineersedge.com/fluid_flow/continuity_equation.htm

duckworth
07-06-2012, 11:56 PM
I want that bucket!

Kiril
07-06-2012, 11:59 PM
We take a static pressure reading, then look at the meter size... it's Math from there.

Is this another magic 3 variable equation .... oh I mean 2 variable equation. :laugh:

Taking flow measurements at a hose bib is NOT accurate. You have no idea what the plumber has done to restrict the lines in the house. Also hose bibs are usually 1/2 fed by a 1/2in poly line, which will effect your readings.

Hose bibbs are fed by poly? I think you mean PEX, in some cases. My hose bibbs out of my house are fed by 3/4" type L rigid copper. Most of what I see on hose bibb feeds from buildings is 1/2 - 3/4 copper or 3/4 galvy.

blakescape
07-07-2012, 12:32 AM
We hacks and pikers in ND always use the bucket test when there is any doubt.

It has NEVER failed us yet. Hard to argue with facts/numbers.

Juan

There is no shame in using the bucket test. Engineers use it whenever they don't have fancy flow meters. The only error you could have is in measuring the dimensions of the bucket and recording the fill up time. If you record everything right then those errors are so small that they are negligible.

txirrigation
07-07-2012, 01:09 AM
The diameter of a pipe will affect the pressure and velocity, but not the flow rate(conservation of mass).

http://www.engineersedge.com/fluid_flow/continuity_equation.htm

True, but with PVC you have a max 5fps. Therefore the size of the pipe directly correlates with flow. If you could take it to 40fps you could get a lot more flow, but you can't.

txirrigation
07-07-2012, 01:17 AM
Is this another magic 3 variable equation .... oh I mean 2 variable equation. :laugh:



Hose bibbs are fed by poly? I think you mean PEX, in some cases. My hose bibbs out of my house are fed by 3/4" type L rigid copper. Most of what I see on hose bibb feeds from buildings is 1/2 - 3/4 copper or 3/4 galvy.

I am glad you have that at your house. Us simple minded folk call PEX poly, but all new construction seems to have 1/2 PEX feeding 1/2 hose bibs. Therefore you will only get about 4-5 gpm out of the hose bib. We connect close to the water meter where you generally have a 5/8 meter and a 1" supply, where you can get between 10-15gpm depending on static pressure.

Yes, it is a three variable equation, but most of the time the supply line is the same size or bigger than the irrigation mainline so it is moot. When it is not bigger then you have to consider the most constricted components.

This is also regional, our meters are out by the street and we tie into the supply line within 7ft of the meter (per code). Therefore testing flow rates after the lines have been reduced to 1/2" is pointless.

Kiril
07-07-2012, 01:23 AM
I am glad you have that at your house. Us simple minded folk call PEX poly, but all new construction seems to have 1/2 PEX feeding 1/2 hose bibs. Therefore you will only get about 4-5 gpm out of the hose bib. We connect close to the water meter where you generally have a 5/8 meter and a 1" supply, where you can get between 10-15gpm depending on static pressure.

I am happy to see you speak for the rest of the country. So in effect, you are guessing your flow rates based on what you think you might be getting from the purveyor .... right?

Yes, it is a three variable equation, but most of the time the supply line is the same size or bigger than the irrigation mainline so it is moot. When it is not bigger then you have to consider the most constricted components.

What does this have anything to do with supply flow? Perhaps you can produce the magic 3 variable equation that boots has never been able to?

This is also regional, our meters are out by the street and we tie into the supply line within 7ft of the meter (per code). Therefore testing flow rates after the lines have been reduced to 1/2" is pointless.

Again, what does this have to do with how much flow you have available?

txirrigation
07-07-2012, 01:39 AM
I am happy to see you speak for the rest of the country. So in effect, you are guessing your flow rates based on what you think you might be getting from the purveyor .... right?



What does this have anything to do with supply flow? Perhaps you can produce the magic 3 variable equation that boots has never been able to?



Again, what does this have to do with how much flow you have available?

1. Read where I said "THIS IS REGIONAL."

2. No I do not get this info from the Purveyor, I put a pressure gauge on the DCVA when installed and get a static reading. Then I open the meter box and read where it says 5/8, 3/4,1"meter etc. Then I look at the size of the line that leads to the meter. After those painful 5sec observations I have all the info I need to accurately determine flow. The only time this does not work is on old houses that may have supply line constrictions, and in that case I have a handy dandy flow calculator. I have even gone one step further and put this all down on a spread sheet so that my techs can look up this info and I do not have to be there.

3. If you have 65psi Static, 1in schd 40 supply, and 5/8meter you can use math and find the available flow. In this situation you will have 13gpm at 58.5psi dynamic to the downstream side of the meter.

It's not my job to educate you on how to find a flow rate, do a google search and find out for yourself.

Kiril
07-07-2012, 09:55 AM
1. Read where I said "THIS IS REGIONAL." [

2. No I do not get this info from the Purveyor, I put a pressure gauge on the DCVA when installed and get a static reading. Then I open the meter box and read where it says 5/8, 3/4,1"meter etc. Then I look at the size of the line that leads to the meter. After those painful 5sec observations I have all the info I need to accurately determine flow. The only time this does not work is on old houses that may have supply line constrictions, and in that case I have a handy dandy flow calculator. I have even gone one step further and put this all down on a spread sheet so that my techs can look up this info and I do not have to be there.

3. If you have 65psi Static, 1in schd 40 supply, and 5/8meter you can use math and find the available flow. In this situation you will have 13gpm at 58.5psi dynamic to the downstream side of the meter.

It's not my job to educate you on how to find a flow rate, do a google search and find out for yourself.


Still waiting for that equation .... oh and FYI.

http://www.lawnsite.com/showpost.php?p=2448588&postcount=1

http://www.lawnsite.com/showpost.php?p=2396905&postcount=47

Also, where did you say anything about regional in your original post? You didn't .... this is what you said.

We take a static pressure reading, then look at the meter size... it's Math from there.

Certainly you can substantiate this claim with an appropriate formula, after all you are claiming it can be done with only two known variables.

FIMCO-MEISTER
07-07-2012, 10:24 AM
I stuck my hand under the flow of the front faucet and decided whether it had good pressure or not then factored that in with the meter size.

txirrigation
07-07-2012, 10:43 AM
I am glad you have that at your house. Us simple minded folk call PEX poly, but all new construction seems to have 1/2 PEX feeding 1/2 hose bibs. Therefore you will only get about 4-5 gpm out of the hose bib. We connect close to the water meter where you generally have a 5/8 meter and a 1" supply, where you can get between 10-15gpm depending on static pressure.

Yes, it is a three variable equation, but most of the time the supply line is the same size or bigger than the irrigation mainline so it is moot. When it is not bigger then you have to consider the most constricted components.

This is also regional, our meters are out by the street and we tie into the supply line within 7ft of the meter (per code). Therefore testing flow rates after the lines have been reduced to 1/2" is pointless.

Third paragraph Kirily.

txirrigation
07-07-2012, 10:45 AM
Still waiting for that equation .... oh and FYI.

http://www.lawnsite.com/showpost.php?p=2448588&postcount=1

http://www.lawnsite.com/showpost.php?p=2396905&postcount=47

Also, where did you say anything about regional in your original post? You didn't .... this is what you said.



Certainly you can substantiate this claim with an appropriate formula, after all you are claiming it can be done with only two known variables.

Clearly if I am accounting for Static PSI, Supply line size, and meter size that would be 3 variables. Most of the time you only account for the meter size and stat. psi because the supply is bigger than the irrigation main.

Kiril
07-07-2012, 11:18 AM
Third paragraph Kirily.

Irrelevant as it was not stated in your original post

Clearly if I am accounting for Static PSI, Supply line size, and meter size that would be 3 variables. Most of the time you only account for the meter size and stat. psi because the supply is bigger than the irrigation main.

That is not what you stated. Further we still do not have a working formula.

FYI, the "simplest" method of calculating flow (without a flow meter) using pressure readings would be to use the Hazen Williams Formula which requires the Hazen Williams coefficient and pressure drop over a known length and diameter of pipe. That is 5 known variables, none of which you have accounted for with exception to pipe size.

FIMCO-MEISTER
07-07-2012, 11:23 AM
This is no longer about right or wrong. This is about I'm smarter than you and name dropping.

Wet_Boots
07-07-2012, 11:31 AM
we need Steven Hawking to weigh in on this :p

Kiril
07-07-2012, 11:32 AM
This is no longer about right or wrong. This is about I'm smarter than you and name dropping.

This is about obtaining accurate actionable information.

FIMCO-MEISTER
07-07-2012, 11:37 AM
we need Steven Hawking to weigh in on this :p

I was thinking Chuck Norris myself.

Wet_Boots
07-07-2012, 11:39 AM
This is about obtaining accurate actionable information.There are reasonable assumptions to be made, given a meter size and static pressure. Whether those are good enough to base a proposal on, is another kettle of fish entirely.

Kiril
07-07-2012, 12:01 PM
There are reasonable assumptions to be made, given a meter size and static pressure. Whether those are good enough to base a proposal on, is another kettle of fish entirely.

You can make all the "reasonable" assumptions you want, that however doesn't mean you are getting accurate and actionable information. At best it would be an education guess, which may or may not be acceptable depending on how large a margin of error you are allowing for, however let's not fool ourselves into thinking you can get an accurate measure of available flow from a static pressure reading and meter size .... that is unless someone wants to present an equation.

txirrigation
07-07-2012, 12:29 PM
You can make all the "reasonable" assumptions you want, that however doesn't mean you are getting accurate and actionable information. At best it would be an education guess, which may or may not be acceptable depending on how large a margin of error you are allowing for, however let's not fool ourselves into thinking you can get an accurate measure of available flow from a static pressure reading and meter size .... that is unless someone wants to present an equation.

I would agree definitely an "education guess."

It has been so long since I made the charts I am going to have to go through my books and find the equations. I will get them to you.

I will say this, as long as you have a 1"supply, over 50psi, and a 5/8 meter; the meter is going to be your most restricted component. Which is basically what you are trying to determine, not how much can I get, but where is the bottle neck. Once you locate the most restricted part you determine safe flow and go with it.

Wet_Boots
07-07-2012, 01:01 PM
I would agree definitely an "education guess."

It has been so long since I made the charts I am going to have to go through my books and find the equations. I will get them to you.

I will say this, as long as you have a 1"supply, over 50psi, and a 5/8 meter; the meter is going to be your most restricted component. Which is basically what you are trying to determine, not how much can I get, but where is the bottle neck. Once you locate the most restricted part you determine safe flow and go with it.With basement meters, the supply line to the house becomes the biggest factor in determining the available water supply.

txirrigation
07-07-2012, 03:25 PM
This is what a connection for us looks like. Usually we are tapping into PVC but this was a small house and they ran kel-tec all the way to the house. Kel-tec is much like PEX but has an aluminum sheath around the plastic pipe with a protective layer of plastic round the aluminum. It is nasty stuff to work with if you do not have the right tools. You have to have a stripping tool that hooks up to a drill in order to remove the aluminum and outer plastic layers. For the plumber it is a breeze, trying to get this all done upside down in a trench is not so easy. And yes, that is a schd. 80 threaded nipple between the 1" female thread adapter and the brass female pex adapter, it's just covered in teflon tape.

Wet_Boots
07-07-2012, 03:32 PM
TOE nipple?

txirrigation
07-07-2012, 03:41 PM
TOE nipple?

yessir. Normal pex is a breeze but we avoid cutting into this stuff like the plague.

Wet_Boots
07-07-2012, 04:05 PM
Is it something other than the heating PEX? I know there's a version of PEX that employs an aluminum layer to prevent air diffusion.

muddywater
07-07-2012, 11:52 PM
Never done it

Utilize the water meter.

If it's a well use a flow meter or install a temp ( or perm) deduct meter

That is the prob the easiest way to get your gpm by converting cubic feet to gpm.

I bought a flow meter for gits and shiggles that has a 1" males adaptor to screw in the backflow. Rarely use it though. After you've done 200 sprinkler systems in a town you know who has flow and who doesn't.

Kiril
07-08-2012, 09:00 AM
I will say this, as long as you have a 1"supply, over 50psi, and a 5/8 meter; the meter is going to be your most restricted component. Which is basically what you are trying to determine, not how much can I get, but where is the bottle neck. Once you locate the most restricted part you determine safe flow and go with it.

You can't make up data TXI. Anyone can arbitrarily choose a velocity along with a known pipe size and get a flow from the charts.
That number is meaningless if the supply cannot support the flow for the velocity you just arbitrarily chose.

1idejim
07-08-2012, 01:21 PM
I would agree definitely an "education guess."

It has been so long since I made the charts I am going to have to go through my books and find the equations. I will get them to you.

I will say this, as long as you have a 1"supply, over 50psi, and a 5/8 meter; the meter is going to be your most restricted component. Which is basically what you are trying to determine, not how much can I get, but where is the bottle neck. Once you locate the most restricted part you determine safe flow and go with it.
Keeping within the 5 fps rule 1" sched 40 = 12 gpm. Cl 200 = 16 gpm. Cl 160 = 16 gpm. A 5/8" meter delivers 15 gpm.

Unless you are using class for supply i am seeing the supply line as the bottle neck.

This is why we see a lot of 1.25 sched 40 used for supply from the meters in tracts i guess.

I am interested in your equation though. I called Pollard Water concerning this same issue without results.
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txirrigation
07-08-2012, 01:42 PM
Keeping within the 5 fps rule 1" sched 40 = 12 gpm. Cl 200 = 16 gpm. Cl 160 = 16 gpm. A 5/8" meter delivers 15 gpm.

Unless you are using class for supply i am seeing the supply line as the bottle neck.

This is why we see a lot of 1.25 sched 40 used for supply from the meters in tracts i guess.

I am interested in your equation though. I called Pollard Water concerning this same issue without results.
Posted via Mobile Device

I gave up looking for the book... so I ordered another one. I will post up the equation when it gets in.

Here is a link to the manual:

http://www.isstx.com/manualpurchase.asp

I took my licensing class from this guy, he is a bit out of the box but he was a great teacher. He had run his own company for a good while, and was a 2nd generation irrigator. The only thing I do not like is that he is pushing to make irrigation available in trade classes in highschool, that is the last thing we need right now. I can see a flood of 18yr. old irrigators running out into the world. He wrote the book, so putting it into highschool classes is a bit self serving.

txirrigation
07-08-2012, 01:49 PM
Keeping within the 5 fps rule 1" sched 40 = 12 gpm. Cl 200 = 16 gpm. Cl 160 = 16 gpm. A 5/8" meter delivers 15 gpm.

Unless you are using class for supply i am seeing the supply line as the bottle neck.

This is why we see a lot of 1.25 sched 40 used for supply from the meters in tracts i guess.

I am interested in your equation though. I called Pollard Water concerning this same issue without results.
Posted via Mobile Device

To answer your question, as a company rule we stop at 12gpm on 5/8 meters. This is to account for pressure drop as more homes are built, give more pressure to the house when the system is running, and a host of other reasons. Most tract homes do have 1.25-2" supply lines.

Wet_Boots
07-08-2012, 02:26 PM
..........Most tract homes do have 1.25-2" supply lines.I still see 3/4-inch copper - I have also seen 5/8-inch and 1/2-inch copper supply lines :(

muddywater
07-08-2012, 02:44 PM
I have seen 5/8 meters push over 20gpm. 12gpm is a good number on average
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1idejim
07-08-2012, 02:50 PM
I gave up looking for the book... so I ordered another one. I will post up the equation when it gets in.

Here is a link to the manual:

http://www.isstx.com/manualpurchase.asp

I took my licensing class from this guy, he is a bit out of the box but he was a great teacher. He had run his own company for a good while, and was a 2nd generation irrigator. The only thing I do not like is that he is pushing to make irrigation available in trade classes in highschool, that is the last thing we need right now. I can see a flood of 18yr. old irrigators running out into the world. He wrote the book, so putting it into highschool classes is a bit self serving.

I was referred to a locating guru a week or so back that was so self envolved and self serving that he couldn't answer my questions without tovting his prodvcts and his past ~triumphs~ over other locators in clinical situations. He lost me when his answer to any question was to pour more water on the ground stake.

i don't usually have issues with arrogant people if the arrogance is deserved but every word from this guys mouth was self promotional. I figure if yovr horn needs tooted, some one will toot it, no need doing it yourself. He never answered my question either.
Posted via Mobile Deviceyou're prolly right about the trade class

txirrigation
07-08-2012, 05:19 PM
I have seen 5/8 meters push over 20gpm. 12gpm is a good number on average
Posted via Mobile Device

I have seen it too, but your only supposed to use 80% of the max design flow through the meter, which for a 5/8 is 15gpm.

Wet_Boots
07-08-2012, 05:26 PM
an old-style 5/8 meter (not the modern 5/8~3/4 ones) pushing 20 gpm spins like a top