PDA

View Full Version : Rotor Head Hookup question


turbosl2
07-06-2012, 05:37 PM
I have a very basic question that i am having a hard time getting answered.

I have Rainbird 5004 heads and the inlet is 3/4" and my main line is 1" poly, fed by 3/4" copper from the meter. Each head is hooked up using 1/2" funny pipe off each zone, did i make a mistake and should have used 3/4" to hookup each head. Basically i used a saddle Tee off the 1" poly with a reducer to 1/2" funny pipe, same reducer elbow is on the bottom of the head (3/4" -1/2" funny push lock).

I am not happy with the coverage, the distance is way low from what rainbird claims, and close in watering is terrible, it seems to have large drops at the end of the stream.

For example, i have roughly 2-3 heads per zone, with the nozzles not adding up to more than 12GPM. So if i have 2 heads i will have 6GPM for each nozzle, which is suppose to be like 47', i get like 25'

I have a 1.5Acre lot, and the system is designed for 12GPM at 50Psi. This was mostly to still provide water in the house while the system is on.

What do you think

Mike Leary
07-06-2012, 05:51 PM
I have a very basic question that i am having a hard time getting answered. What do you think

I don't know what to think, other than a screw-up. Depending on the psi/gpm, a 5000 series will chuck to 50'. However, you need at LEAST 45 psi at the head and each head will gulp 6 to 8 gpm. If I was using the 5000 to chuck that far, (which I never would do unless I knew I had enough psi/gpm),swing pipe would not be my choice, as friction loss will kill the system. How did you take the original measurements?

Wet_Boots
07-06-2012, 08:31 PM
bad system design by someone who never bothered to find out what the water supply was

AI Inc
07-06-2012, 08:41 PM
where did you get the 12 gpm # from?

turbosl2
07-06-2012, 10:58 PM
where did you get the 12 gpm # from?

I measured it myself. I measured 12GPM at a 1/2" spigot right off my 3/4" meter. I also measured between 50-55PSI pressure, so i did start the design with the pressure and flow measurements , no way to design a system without it.

This is not relevant but:
I also measured alot more GPM right off my 3/4" line before it goes into the double check valve. I decided to use the 12GPM that i got with the 1/2" valve in the basement as a max number that i want the sprinkler system to use, this leaves me with reserve in the house(i.e. i didnt care that it could flow more since it was going to be on 3/4). The 1/2" spigot was there before the system was installed so thats another reason the 12GPM reading was chosen for the design value.

Moving on do you guys think i made a mistake listening to the advice to use the funny pipe to go to each head. Basically here is how it works, i will try to simplify things, i am not the best at explaining.

-Residential Lot (1" line coming to the home, 550' from road/main)
-1.5Acres irrigated
-16 Zones (2-3 heads per zone, all nozzles added together not to exceed 12GPM)
-Rainbird 5004 Heads, nozzle sizes vary depend on location, if its a full circle in the center of the property i have 6GPM in each nozzle and 2 heads per zone. If its a 180deg (edge of property) i have 3 heads with 4GPM nozzles installed.
-3/4" meter in the house, 3/4" copper goes outside and then transitions to 1" poly.
-1" poly runs into 5 boxes with 3 valves in all but one, the other has 4. ( run length varies depending on box location, but some are 100', others can be 250-300'
-1" rainbird valves
- Out of each box is 1" poly where i used the saddle Tees in the middle and an end fitting on the line with a 1" - .5" funny pipe fitting (no clamps needed). This is not swing pipe, there are no elbows, it just comes as 100' spool of flexible pipe with a green strip.
- Each saddle Tee has a 3/4" thead where i was supplied a 3/4"NPT - .5" funny pipe fitting (again you just push the pipe on)
-Each head has this same 90 deg fitting that is 3/4" - .5"

I asked why is the systems designed with 1" pipe in the ground, and then there are 3/4" fittings on all the heads but from the poly to the head (which is only a few feet) i go to .5", doesnt this limit the head by alot. The advice i recieved was this is how we do them all, it keeps the pressure up.

So my question is, does anyone see anything wrong with this, it seems dumb to reduce the pipe size for that few feet to .5", it seems that if it was suppose to take a 3/4" threaded fitting you would use 3/4".

I am unsure because this is residential but the distance and heads are more small commercial.

turbosl2
07-06-2012, 11:07 PM
Here is the plot layout

DanaMac
07-06-2012, 11:09 PM
I have never heard of 3/4" Funny/swing pipe. It's not even 1/2", it's actually designated as 3/8".

I have never seen a 5000 head on a resi system shoot 40+ feet. I keep them around 24'-28' if possible. Start by reducing the nozzle size in the rotors. Unless you have higher pressure and less-restricted flow leading to the head (no swing pipe and all 3/4" fittings leading in to it), I don't see you pushing 6 GPM through those nozzles.

Easiest thing to start with, change out the nozzles.

.5" funny pipe fitting (no clamps needed). This is not swing pipe, there are no elbows, it just comes as 100' spool of flexible pipe with a green strip.

Not sure what you mean here. To me, swing pipe is funny pipe, same thing. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. If it's the Rainbird swing pipe with a green stripe, call it what you want, it's swing pipe.

Stuttering Stan
07-06-2012, 11:21 PM
Just to make sure we are on the same page, the green striped pipe is commonly referred to as "funny" pipe.

turbosl2
07-06-2012, 11:29 PM
Just to make sure we are on the same page, the green striped pipe is commonly referred to as "funny" pipe.

This is exactly my setup. The same fittings, just instead of PVC i have poly with a Blazin saddle Tee. The head shown above is what i have in my mulch garden, and i am famialr with the fittings because the black are 1/2"NPT - 1/2" funny pipe, and the grey 90deg elbows are 3/4"NPT to 1/2" funny (not shown).

The issue i am having is not just with the distance, i need the GPM too. I have pure sand for soil. Its like a beach when dry. I water 40mins per zone and its still dry by the end of the day. The reason i have to water so much is because i dont get good close in watering (my opinion) and with a large circle it seems to take a while to put the In/Hr down in the soil. The grass is still on the edge of drying out, but with this soil we have here its hard to retain moisture.

DanaMac
07-06-2012, 11:29 PM
Just to make sure we are on the same page, the green striped pipe is commonly referred to as "funny" pipe.

Yeah, that's what we call swing pipe here. I rarely hear anyone call it funny pipe. Even the supply house guys call it swing pipe.

DanaMac
07-06-2012, 11:32 PM
I have a 1.5Acre lot, and the system is designed for 12GPM at 50Psi.

You need to get a pitot tube and pressure gauge and check your pressure at the heads. If you have 50 PSI STATIC at the backflow preventeer, you will NOT have 50 PSI DYNAMIC at the heads. So you will never achieve 47' if you were basing it on 50 psi from the charts, and you started at 50 psi static.

greenmonster304
07-06-2012, 11:38 PM
I think your mistake was taking a gpm measurement and a static pressure reading and not a dynamic pressure reading while doing your flow test.

If you have the pressure and flow there is mo reason you can't get 40' out of a # 6 nozzle with funny pipe and saddle tees, I do it all the time.
Posted via Mobile Device

DanaMac
07-06-2012, 11:41 PM
Is this the chart you used? http://rainbird.com/documents/turf/chart_5000.pdf

If so, look at the chart for 45 psi, and it will give you 46' with a 6 GPM nozzle. That is the pressure at the HEAD, not the at the P.O.C. when nothing is running.

Most likely you will have about 30-40 psi at the head, if you start at 50 and have 2-3 heads per zone.

turbosl2
07-06-2012, 11:41 PM
You need to get a pitot tube and pressure gauge and check your pressure at the heads.

Ok, i wasnt sure what to call it, i think funny pipe may be a TORO trade name. Swing pipe makes more sense. How should i go about doing this, i have never done this before. I am wondering if there is a crack or something in the main line. It could be me but i dont seem to be impressed with the rain curtain technology. I was even going to try to upgrade some heads to the Rain bird Falcon 6504 because they had 3 nozzles, distance, close and mid range.

What i end up with is larger droplets at the end of the stream resulting in darker green hollow circles of greener grass. Then some minor green grass around the head, then anywhere in between doesnt get as much water. And today i measured the distance and say 25' from each 6GPM nozzle (for a total of 50' diameter. Now add sandy soil, 80-90 deg temps and i can see the heat stressed spots in the yard clear as day. And it starts 2' from the head, then 3' from the end. Everything else is green.

I mention this because i would think it would work as should if the nozzle threw as intended. I think a 6GPM is like 47-49' at 50PSI, thats a large radius, something like that. I am getting about half

turbosl2
07-06-2012, 11:43 PM
Is this the chart you used? http://rainbird.com/documents/turf/chart_5000.pdf

If so, look at the chart for 45 psi, and it will give you 46' with a 6 GPM nozzle. That is the pressure at the HEAD, not the at the P.O.C. when nothing is running.

Most likely you will have about 30-40 psi at the head, if you start at 50 and have 2-3 heads per zone.

Ahh, yes this is the chart i been using. If i am getting 25' i seem to have a real problem, its not even on the chart.

turbosl2
07-06-2012, 11:45 PM
What should i do? 25' with 2 6GPM nozzles running means i am below 25PSI on pressure at the head. Idk how it could be this low.
How to you figure on paper the pressure at each head when changing the nozzles. Is there a formula or calculator you use. I just checked my pressure with my gauge, it is 55PSI. But its almost 11pm so i am sure the demand for water on the main is lower too

DanaMac
07-06-2012, 11:47 PM
I think a 6GPM is like 47-49' at 50PSI, thats a large radius, something like that. I am getting about half

As I mentioned, you will have to nozzle down to get anywhere close to your distance, but you will not get your 47'. It's not going to happen, Uh uh, no way. Just being honest and up front. It is a design issue on your end, and we all made them in the early days. You can either redesign and reinstall, or you can make due. Renozzle, get as much distance and as close to head-to-head coverage as possible, and don't rely on the rain curtain technology to get enough water down in front of the heads.

turbosl2
07-06-2012, 11:53 PM
As I mentioned, you will have to nozzle down to get anywhere close to your distance, but you will not get your 47'. It's not going to happen, Uh uh, no way. Just being honest and up front. It is a design issue on your end, and we all made them in the early days. You can either redesign and reinstall, or you can make due. Renozzle, get as much distance and as close to head-to-head coverage as possible, and don't rely on the rain curtain technology to get enough water down in front of the heads.

I appreciate the honesty. Do you think if i were to change out the swing pipe to something else that is 3/4" and run 3/4" from the 1" line to the head it would do better, or do you think it will drop the pressure even more at the head. I was told using hte .5" swing would help keep the pressure up. I really do need the distance, i see for some reason the 3.0LA at 25PSI seems to throw more than i am getting now, and it only flows 3GPM but will lay down .51Inch of water using half the GPM, not sure how that is possible

DanaMac
07-06-2012, 11:55 PM
What should i do? 25' with 2 6GPM nozzles running means i am below 25PSI on pressure at the head. Idk how it could be this low.
How to you figure on paper the pressure at each head when changing the nozzles. Is there a formula or calculator you use. I just checked my pressure with my gauge, it is 55PSI. But its almost 11pm so i am sure the demand for water on the main is lower too

How are you figuring you are getting 25 psi at the heads with those nozzles? You have to take a field reading at the head to actually see what you are getting. It's going to take some time, and multiple nozzle change outs to get it right, or at least close. Are all the heads spaced at 47'? It's going to be a tough one. You might think about adding a head here or there, and moving some existing one, to get better spacing.

Are you putting 6 GPM nozzles on every head? No matter the area it is covering? This is a no-no. Let's say for instance you have a 1 GPM in a 90 degree corner. Then you should have a 2 in a 180 degree, a 3 in a 270 degree, and a 4 in a 360 degree. Matched precipitation.

DanaMac
07-06-2012, 11:58 PM
I'm tagging out to someone else for the night, 5:00 AM start time at the trail head tomorrow.

turbosl2
07-07-2012, 12:03 AM
How are you figuring you are getting 25 psi at the heads with those nozzles? You have to take a field reading at the head to actually see what you are getting. It's going to take some time, and multiple nozzle change outs to get it right, or at least close. Are all the heads spaced at 47'? It's going to be a tough one. You might think about adding a head here or there, and moving some existing one, to get better spacing.

Are you putting 6 GPM nozzles on every head? No matter the area it is covering? This is a no-no. Let's say for instance you have a 1 GPM in a 90 degree corner. Then you should have a 2 in a 180 degree, a 3 in a 270 degree, and a 4 in a 360 degree. Matched precipitation.

I appreciate the help, thank you. I figure i am getting less than 25PSI at the head. I would like to know how to measure it at the head dynamically. I am only putting the 6GPM in the full circles, and i am using 3-4GPM in the 180s 1.5-2s at the 90s.

DanaMac
07-07-2012, 12:08 AM
I appreciate the help, thank you. I figure i am getting less than 25PSI at the head. I would like to know how to measure it at the head dynamically. I am only putting the 6GPM in the full circles, and i am using 3-4GPM in the 180s 1.5-2s at the 90s.

You must get a pitot tube and gauge. The tube goes in the direct spray of water directly in front of the nozzle. And you will get very wet :)
Here are some that are available Gauge and pitot tube (http://www.sprinklerwarehouse.com/Hunter-Sprinkler-Rotor-Pressure-Gauge-p/rotor-pitot-gauge.htm)

Kiril
07-07-2012, 01:07 AM
I measured it myself. I measured 12GPM at a 1/2" spigot right off my 3/4" meter. I also measured between 50-55PSI pressure, so i did start the design with the pressure and flow measurements , no way to design a system without it.

Would that be 50-55 PSI @ 12 GPM (eg. dynamic pressure) or your static pressure? Seems to me you probably designed around a static pressure and now you are having problems with coverage as your nozzle pressures are way below what you need.

Kiril
07-07-2012, 01:12 AM
I was told using hte .5" swing would help keep the pressure up.

That is pure bull.

I really do need the distance, i see for some reason the 3.0LA at 25PSI seems to throw more than i am getting now, and it only flows 3GPM but will lay down .51Inch of water using half the GPM, not sure how that is possible

If you don't have the pressure, renozzling is not going to get you the distance .... sorry. Also, your design is a little less than stellar on coverage, even if you did have the correct pressures.

Wet_Boots
07-07-2012, 09:40 AM
The thing to do is to perform the flow and pressure tests simultaneously. Put the pressure gauge on your system blowout valve. Or better yet, on the backflow preventer. Open a zone, and read the pressure. Go to the water meter, and determine the flow. Pair those flow and pressure numbers together. Now close off the flow a bit, downstream of the pressure gauge and take a second set of flow-and-pressure numbers. Repeat the flow restricting, and take more flow-and-pressure measurements. You should end up with a table of paired flow-and-pressure numbers. That table is what your water supply really is. Your water supply is not a pressure. Your water supply is not a flow. It is a combination of flow and pressure, and that combination is what you design a system with.

turbosl2
07-07-2012, 09:50 AM
The thing to do is to perform the flow and pressure tests simultaneously. Put the pressure gauge on your system blowout valve. Or better yet, on the backflow preventer. Open a zone, and read the pressure. Go to the water meter, and determine the flow. Pair those flow and pressure numbers together. Now close off the flow a bit, downstream of the pressure gauge and take a second set of flow-and-pressure numbers. Repeat the flow restricting, and take more flow-and-pressure measurements. You should end up with a table of paired flow-and-pressure numbers. That table is what your water supply really is. Your water supply is not a pressure. Your water supply is not a flow. It is a combination of flow and pressure, and that combination is what you design a system with.

I will try this, but will i still need the pressure at the head, or should it be equal inside at the backflow preventer and at the head. What do you think about using the 1/2 swing pipe, is that restricting me or helping me?
Posted via Mobile Device

Wet_Boots
07-07-2012, 10:16 AM
What you need is one thing. What you actually have is another thing. Based on what you've described, you are plain and simple screwed.

Is the system entirely in place? Every single valve and head?

turbosl2
07-07-2012, 10:54 AM
What you need is one thing. What you actually have is another thing. Based on what you've described, you are plain and simple screwed.

Is the system entirely in place? Every single valve and head?

That doesnt really say much. The system has been in place for 2yrs. I am just asking if the 1/2" swing pipe matters. I did some research and i dont think it does because my GPM is never going to exceed 6, and 1/2" or even 3/8" should flow 6GPM (1/2" pipe can flow about 14GPM) It not like the yard is not getting covered. I watched the system when it was all dirt, i was getting decent covereage. It could be that i am just not happy with the close in watering of the rainbird 5004 heads. With the pure sand the water goes right through it, and at the end of the stream i see green, but thats because substantial water falls there, so its not an even distribution.

Wet_Boots
07-07-2012, 11:29 AM
The swing pipe only matters to the extent that it can subtract maybe one or two psi. Your system seems to be short by several dozen psi. You will never ever ever ever see any head on your system spray as far as 40 feet.

FIMCO-MEISTER
07-07-2012, 12:35 PM
I doubt the funny pipe is the main issue like boots says something else is going on. I wouldn't use funny pipe trying to push 6gpm though. It is a bottleneck in a system that needs minimum pressure loss. 40' is really pushing it. 30-35' max with 5000s in my book. May have to swap them all out to maxi paws.

bcg
07-07-2012, 12:59 PM
I think your mistake was taking a gpm measurement and a static pressure reading and not a dynamic pressure reading while doing your flow test.

If you have the pressure and flow there is mo reason you can't get 40' out of a # 6 nozzle with funny pipe and saddle tees, I do it all the time.
Posted via Mobile Device

What he said, if you've got 50PSI static, you do not have anywhere near that dynamic. I'd bet your dynamic reading is more like 35PSI or less (just a rough guess). You need to run the math on the hydraulics and figure out what your supply really is or how much you need to increase your pipe sizes.

The funny pipe swing joint isn't the problem.

Wet_Boots
07-07-2012, 01:27 PM
Thing is, is the soil is really sandy, the system may be pushing the envelope to cover all the plantings, and is better off with crappy pressure and maximum flow.

The textbook solution would have been a separate one-inch tap at the street. Curbside meter in a large pit that can also hold a DCVA and master valve. One-and-a-half inch mainline.

FIMCO-MEISTER
07-07-2012, 01:36 PM
Then swap them out to maxipaws?

Wet_Boots
07-07-2012, 02:20 PM
a Maxipaw with the 3/16 nozzle might just get you that 40 feet and 6 gpm

turbosl2
07-07-2012, 04:20 PM
I doubt the funny pipe is the main issue like boots says something else is going on. I wouldn't use funny pipe trying to push 6gpm though. It is a bottleneck in a system that needs minimum pressure loss. 40' is really pushing it. 30-35' max with 5000s in my book. May have to swap them all out to maxi paws.

I just came back from messing around with the system for the last few hrs. Here are some updates.
I reduced the total of all nozzles to be 10-11GPM vice 12. Substantial increase in throw distance. On a 5GPM nozzle i am now throwing about 36-38', and a 4GPM i am at around 35-36'. Some are at the 32-34 mark too.

The zone that i was chucking 25' had a 6GPM and an 8GPM. I switched them both to 5GPM and i am at about 38'. It doesnt look like any of the streams to touch another head, i am short on most all of them, that i cannot fix. Its a screw up. Everything does get covered but not like it should. I cannot get the end of the stream to touch another head like i wish.
It seems that 5GPM is the max nozzle size and the sweet spot, if i try to go any large the distance falls short by ALOT.
So i have 3-4GPMs in the 180s, 5GPMS in the 360s, and 1.5-2GPMs in the 90s.

I really looked at the pattern, and i think the only thing i am not happy with is how the "rain curtain technology" Everything does get wet inside the circle but i still think about 30% more water goes to the last 2' of arc. My soil being so sandy it likes that 30% more water, but if i could have it more even i would be happier.

What is a good head changeout to use. I have about 50 heads, but not going to replace all of them. I was looking at the Falcon 6504s because they have a tri nozzle design, vice a single like the 5004. Anyone like these. I was trying to stick with rainbird, and it looked like the 6504 could just screw right into the same base. So i dont have to do any digging. I see its a 1" inlet but i do not want to upgrade all the fittings and stuff like that.

You are pretty much dead on with the distance of the 5004s. I am happy with the numbers but it is def low from what they claim.

turbosl2
07-07-2012, 04:23 PM
Thing is, is the soil is really sandy, the system may be pushing the envelope to cover all the plantings, and is better off with crappy pressure and maximum flow.

The textbook solution would have been a separate one-inch tap at the street. Curbside meter in a large pit that can also hold a DCVA and master valve. One-and-a-half inch mainline.

Ya you are correct. I should take some pics, the soil is pure sand. I think this is why on the coverage i end up with a the last 2' of the arc to be darker green while everything inside is barely holding its own this time of year. The last 2' with these heads has large water droplets, doesnt seem like even coverege like they claim. I am not interested in redoing everything, its thousands to have a new tap at the street, and i am 550' from the street, then another $1000 for a 1" or larger meter. 3/4" meter for residential is not that bad but anything more is commercial.

Wet_Boots
07-07-2012, 04:25 PM
If you are almost satisfied with the system, the only real performance upgrade will be Maxipaw impact heads, because their impact drives outperform any gear drive rotor at low pressure.

turbosl2
07-07-2012, 04:25 PM
a Maxipaw with the 3/16 nozzle might just get you that 40 feet and 6 gpm

This is an impact type rotor? I have never used one.

Wet_Boots
07-07-2012, 04:29 PM
I've done systems with Maxipaws where the street pressure was barely 50 psi. There was nothing else that had a chance of spraying 35 feet with only 25 psi at the head.

turbosl2
07-07-2012, 04:33 PM
I see them on sprinkler warehouse for about $18 each. I could give it a try, i always thought these types of sprinklers were lower end, but i could be wrong, i am not the expert

Wet_Boots
07-07-2012, 04:46 PM
For pros, the Maxipaw heads are low-end, because they are high-maintenance. For the homeowner keeping an eye on things, they get you performance nothing else will provide, and the extra attention they require will be worth it.

turbosl2
07-07-2012, 04:50 PM
Here is a pick from the 2nd floor. You can see the greener lines are at the end of the arc where there tends to be larger water droplets. On a hot sunny day inside the arc area looks heat stressed. This is watering 45mins per zone starting at about 3am, but the soil will be dry as a bone at the end of the day, like you didnt even water. It will stay green where those large water droplets end.

So i guess the question is, based on my revised numbers a few posts ago (34-38' on 4 or 5GPM nozzles with the 5004s, should i buy 6504 or maxipaws.

turbosl2
07-07-2012, 04:53 PM
the brown is red thread from the humid weather this spring

Wet_Boots
07-07-2012, 05:12 PM
Forget the Falcon rotors. Forget any gear drive rotor, if your static pressure is only 50 psi.

You can look at a chart that will show gear-drive head coverage at 30 psi, but that's just a chart. If I phoned factory support and told them that I was getting poor coverage with a gear-drive head at 30 psi head pressure, I would be informed I should be designing with head pressures of at least 50 psi.

Mike Leary
07-07-2012, 05:35 PM
What Boots said. 50 psi is nothing, static-wise.

Duekster
07-07-2012, 05:50 PM
It does sound like you are losing too much pressure in the system if you are starting at 50~55 Static. These rotors will work but you will not get 48 feet as I think I read in the thread.

http://www.rainbird.com/documents/turf/chart_5000.pdf

1idejim
07-07-2012, 05:51 PM
Here is a pick from the 2nd floor. You can see the greener lines are at the end of the arc where there tends to be larger water droplets. On a hot sunny day inside the arc area looks heat stressed. This is watering 45mins per zone starting at about 3am, but the soil will be dry as a bone at the end of the day, like you didnt even water. It will stay green where those large water droplets end.

So i guess the question is, based on my revised numbers a few posts ago (34-38' on 4 or 5GPM nozzles with the 5004s, should i buy 6504 or maxipaws.

there is a direct relationship between the nozzle size/gpm and the supply/pressure.

if you have 50 psi at the head (which you haven't verified) the 5000 with a 2.0 nozzle will throw 37 ft @ 2.25 gpm (averaged) and the 6504 will throw 41 ft @ 3.7 gpm.

it makes no sense to increase your demand almost 1.5 gpm to gain gain 2 feet in distance from the head when you may be able to modify the layout and head spacing.

if your supply estimate is correct you can reduce the nozzle size as dana suggested and adjust the head placement to acheive a more harmonious outcome.
Posted via Mobile Device

Mike Leary
07-07-2012, 06:18 PM
I sure made a ton of money stomping-down stuck Maxis. The best one was the cold call where all the Maxis were destroyed. I looked at the site, hooked-up the remote and started to do a survey. The owner came out and I, (in disbelief) asked what in the hell happened here? He noticed the remote, and said, "fire the zones." Out of nowhere came two Jack Russel terriers and attacked the heads, viciously. I patted both of them and said, "good dogs". We replaced the entire system with rotors, end of fun for the dogs.

Wet_Boots
07-07-2012, 06:19 PM
the thing for the OP to do is to get a few of the Maxipaws, along with the extra nozzles, and a marlex ell for each head, and more swing pipe and swing pipe couplings

convert a zone of two or three heads to Maxipaws, and experiment with the yellow and tan nozzles, and the low-pressure arm setting

Mike Leary
07-07-2012, 07:44 PM
This thread has pretty much run out of pavement: screwing around with this and that may give someone something to do, only to have it fail, again. It took me many years to say, "start over, get a decent design and enjoy your landscape." 'Nuff said.

Duekster
07-07-2012, 07:51 PM
This thread has pretty much run out of pavement: screwing around with this and that may give someone something to do, only to have it fail, again. It took me many years to say, "start over, get a decent design and enjoy your landscape." 'Nuff said.

So you are out of ideas? :laugh:

Trouble shooting is fun, some times you have to fix things installed wrong.

Mike Leary
07-07-2012, 07:57 PM
So you are out of ideas? :laugh:

Trouble shooting is fun, some times you have to fix things installed wrong.

To a point.

Duekster
07-07-2012, 07:59 PM
To a point.

As long as you are consistant, That is all I ask. :drinkup:

Wet_Boots
07-07-2012, 08:20 PM
Dudes, it's probably a flag lot, and if you want to 'double' the city water supply, you would spend thousands on a new tap and supply line.

There would be some sense in looking to switch to well water. That would also cost thousands, but the water supply would be all fixed up, as long as filtration is added to keep sand out of the system.

Duekster
07-07-2012, 08:22 PM
Loop the main

turbosl2
07-07-2012, 08:43 PM
there is a direct relationship between the nozzle size/gpm and the supply/pressure.

if you have 50 psi at the head (which you haven't verified) the 5000 with a 2.0 nozzle will throw 37 ft @ 2.25 gpm (averaged) and the 6504 will throw 41 ft @ 3.7 gpm.

it makes no sense to increase your demand almost 1.5 gpm to gain gain 2 feet in distance from the head when you may be able to modify the layout and head spacing.

if your supply estimate is correct you can reduce the nozzle size as dana suggested and adjust the head placement to acheive a more harmonious outcome.
Posted via Mobile Device

I hear what your saying but modifiying the layout is just not an option. Its to many heads for me and i dont have the time or will to do it. pressure is 55PSI static. I cannot give you guys a pressure at the head without a pitot tube. The only thing i can do is what was suggested by putting a guage on the backflow preventer and take pressure/flow data as i open the the sprinklers, or better yet. I could disconnect the manifold and use the ball valve on the backflow and get data from closed (static) to full open, then plot the curve.

Judging by what i am throwing with the 3 -5GPM nozzles i think i am between 25-30psi at the head

turbosl2
07-07-2012, 08:49 PM
Dudes, it's probably a flag lot, and if you want to 'double' the city water supply, you would spend thousands on a new tap and supply line.

There would be some sense in looking to switch to well water. That would also cost thousands, but the water supply would be all fixed up, as long as filtration is added to keep sand out of the system.

You are close, its a 7acre lot where i set the house from the road a long distance. 1.75acres are cleared and personally i dont think the layout is bad, i think it can better but distance is not the only function i am concerned with. I need to put down alot of precipication (In/Hr). There is NO shade and i get full sun from sun up to sun down, add that to pure sand and it seems there is not enough water in the world to keep it green and from drying out.

What my goal was asking for your guys help is to determine how to get better close in watering (a more even stream), this is what led to the questions about the distance (the issue with the 25' was due to large of nozzles in the heads), and what rotors seem better. I dont think i have a bad pressure.

If its worth something i will spend the time to take readings like i described before (just tell me if i should do it with the system disconnected adn just vary the ball valve coming out of the backflow from closed to open and record the pressure and flow from the meter.

Thanks, i appreciate the advice so far

Wet_Boots
07-07-2012, 08:56 PM
if you are on anything close to the kind of moraine soil I see, courtesy of the ice age, you would eventually get back all the money you invest in drilling a well.

turbosl2
07-07-2012, 08:56 PM
the thing for the OP to do is to get a few of the Maxipaws, along with the extra nozzles, and a marlex ell for each head, and more swing pipe and swing pipe couplings

convert a zone of two or three heads to Maxipaws, and experiment with the yellow and tan nozzles, and the low-pressure arm setting

I am looking to order 2 Maxipaws and 2 6504 rotors. I plan to swap out 2 of my full circle zones where i have 5GPM nozzles and right now getting about 38' and see how they perform, not just in distance but with close in watering. I never used the 6504s but the three nozzles look to be a much better design, it seems only logical that if you split it up into 3 stages you can meter it much better.

greenmonster304
07-07-2012, 09:25 PM
I think you are missing the point. If you don't have the right pressure you won't get close in watering because the water dosent "atomize" with low pressure regardless of the head unless its an impact head. Don't wast your money on the 6505s the same thing will happen. The rain curtain works great with 45 lbs.
Posted via Mobile Device

Mike Leary
07-07-2012, 09:41 PM
Where are the MODS when we need them?

Duekster
07-07-2012, 09:43 PM
Where are the MODS when we need them?

Regarding? :confused:

turbosl2
07-07-2012, 09:45 PM
I think you are missing the point. If you don't have the right pressure you won't get close in watering because the water dosent "atomize" with low pressure regardless of the head unless its an impact head. Don't wast your money on the 6505s the same thing will happen. The rain curtain works great with 45 lbs.
Posted via Mobile Device

Ok, well that might be the problem. Here is the chart of my water supply with the sprinkler running, it doesnt look to good.

This was taken with the zone open in which i have 2 #5 nozzles installed in my 5004 heads
50 psi - 0 GPM (static)
closing the backflow preventor ball valve to reduce the flow
40 psi - 1.0 GPM
35 psi - 3.3 GPM
30 psi - 5.0 GPM
25 psi - 6.25 GPM


Some other data from the sprinkler

2 #6 nozzle zone open i get 20PSI at 7.5GPM
4 Nozzles (2,3,3,3) i get 22psi and 7.0GPM
2#5 nozzles again, i get 22psi and 6.8GPM



I did not do a measurement with every sink and tub on in the house, i suppose the meausrement is substantially higher. I just wanted to see what the sprinkler was doing. Should i?

Mike Leary
07-07-2012, 09:48 PM
Regarding? :confused:

This thread that is going nowhere.

Duekster
07-07-2012, 10:03 PM
This thread that is going nowhere.

Many of them do from my experiance. Shape it up, you are the expert.

The OP actually is bringing data better than most

Mike Leary
07-07-2012, 10:18 PM
Many of them do from my experiance. Shape it up, you are the expert.

The OP actually is bringing data better than most

The OP IS learning and hauling it to the gate, but I still think he's screwed. That was my only point.

jvanvliet
07-07-2012, 10:32 PM
Here is a pick from the 2nd floor. You can see the greener lines are at the end of the arc where there tends to be larger water droplets. On a hot sunny day inside the arc area looks heat stressed. This is watering 45mins per zone starting at about 3am, but the soil will be dry as a bone at the end of the day, like you didnt even water. It will stay green where those large water droplets end.

So i guess the question is, based on my revised numbers a few posts ago (34-38' on 4 or 5GPM nozzles with the 5004s, should i buy 6504 or maxipaws.

Looking at the pics, it appears you may have problems other than water distribution. The browned out patches are indicative of either fungus, some other pathogen or pest; in the South my guess is cinch. It's difficult to tell without a closeup. Also those straight lines on the turf indicate poor distribution of fertilizer, not water.

As a rule of thumb and without agonizing over minutiae, 45 minutes wouldn't be long enough for rotators on open fields exposed to full sun. unless I personally saw there was no head to head coverage, I'd increase watering time to 60 minutes, on full sun zones as much as 75 minutes.

Just saying, if this were in my neck of the woods, I would suggest your problem may not be irrigation alone... or at all. Post these pictures on the pesticide forum without mentioning the concern about irrigation and get some opinions there.

Kiril
07-07-2012, 10:57 PM
maxipaws suck ass and will not perform any better than the 5000's when distance is a concern. Look it up in the charts ... the very same charts that boots loves.

If the OP is truly irrigating pure sand, that begs the question why the hell did you plant turf there without amending the soil.

I agree with jvan that the turf has problems that are not directly irrigation related, however there are also some clear indications of irrigation problems, both design and management.

@turbos

The only numbers that mean anything in your ball valve flow test are the first and last, the rest are guesses.

Felco #2
07-07-2012, 11:19 PM
You are close, its a 7acre lot where i set the house from the road a long distance

How far are you from the road? If your service line begins at the road, pressure loss could be substantial from there to your house. Particularly if undersized and/or a long distance.

FIMCO-MEISTER
07-07-2012, 11:20 PM
If you do go maxi paws which I consider to be a fine head and sometimes the best solution in low pressure nasty water situations then you need one of these. Keeping the grass trimmed around a maxi paw is imperative.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MUqlHs2QFc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I've solved some pizz poor pgp rotor type installs with maxi paws. I've also used them to replace maxed out rainjet systems. No head in that distance range can you cheat on the spacing like you can with a maxi paw.

turbosl2
07-08-2012, 12:27 AM
Again, thanks guys for the help so far. This has been a 2 yr battle. In the spring (May) my yard looks like a golf course. Its so perfect it could be in a magizine. But as the season goes on it gets worse.

Some info to answer some of your questions.
I live in NY, saratoga county. The soil is pure sand.
I have a 1" poly line going to my house from the main. Its 550'. It enters the house and is converted to 3/4" copper right off the foundation wall. The sprinkler system is 3/4" copper, outside where i convert it to 1" poly. The whole main line is 1" poly, and so are the manifolds and valves. The saddle valves are 3/4" NPT where it then has like 2' of 1/2" swing pipe to feed the 5000 heads.

The brown was a wonderful red thread that the lawn fertlizer company brought into my property. I did it myself last year but this year i decided to try a service that is a liquid slow release. I am not happy with it yet. Everyone that is suppose to be an expert tells me 20-30mins a zone is what your are suppose to water, and the locals say dont even try to keep your grass green in july. Its impossible. I run 45mins a zone every other day and by the end of the first day the surface is dry as a bone, but the front is holding is own,the back is not as nice. When you have 16zones its really hard to do much more, your talking 12 hrs of watering. I have to split it to every other day, one day the front, the other day the back. The front gets shade until about 8-9am, while the back gets sun starting at like 6am.

The red thread is out of the lawn now and its just starting to fill back in after a high N dose. The fert company tells me to reduce watering to 20mins, and i told him he was crazy. The sun exposure i have and the soil tells me 45mins is not enough. I dont think he understands my size lot, he is prob used to the .25acre lots where the soil is clay or topsoil. I say this because when you have a 38' radius, it takes some time to cover some decent amount of water into the ground. So i decided to add a few zones to water every day just to see how it works out, and it is greening up in those areas. The thing that still bugs me, and the reason for this thread was i dont get enough water (at least to my liking) close to the head, larger droplets form at the end of the curtain, its not really bad but maybe you just cant get it that perfect. I have never watered more than 45mins a zone.

I wish i could amend the soil but its way to expensive to do 75k sq feet of yard. When i designed and built the house i had to have 6k yards of dirt moved to level it out. I then realized at $25-35 a yard for topsoil, thats not going to happen. To put down 3" it would be like 8,000 yards of topsoil needed. You can do the math on that one. Even if it was $5 a yard its to much

I can take pics of the heads in action tomar morning. And some of the soil.

I do not water at night but i do start my sprinklers at 3:15 AM because it wont finish half the yard until 9:15 (6hrs later), and thats only half. If i watered at night the grass would def stay wet but i hear you shouldnt water at night, then i hear its a myth. So plain and simple i just dont do it.

The other thing is 6-7GPM seems like crap

DanaMac
07-08-2012, 12:34 AM
I do not water at night but i do start my sprinklers at 3:15 AM because it wont finish half the yard until 9:15 (6hrs later), and thats only half. If i watered at night the grass would def stay wet but i hear you shouldnt water at night, then i hear its a myth. So plain and simple i just dont do it.

It's a regional thing. Here, in CO, we have minimal humidity. So running them at night is no big deal, as things won't stay wet all night long. Areas with high humidity may be different though.

You're going to have to find a compromise, and live/accept the faults of the system unless you want to re-install and re-design. Don't go with the Falcons. I highly doubt they will help, and actually may operate worse than what you already have.

I'm not a MaxiPaw fan, but they may do the job.

turbosl2
07-08-2012, 12:54 AM
Ya i just looked at the falcons, they have a min pressure of 30psi at the head. I am barely at 25psi. I may order a few maxis. Does you have a certain type of head that may give more uniform watering that you suggest? I figure i order a few of this, and that and see what happens.

Maybe i should look into boosting the pressure for the sprinkler system. I have 2 sprinkler pumps but i really didnt want to pay the electric to water the lawn.Not sure how much it would cost. 6hrs a day for an electric pump may add up. I have points but never even tried it because its so sandy here and i am higher up in elevation i dont think i could hit water.
I also dont think a point can supply 2500-4000gallons of water. Maybe it could though

Wet_Boots
07-08-2012, 02:40 AM
Drill a well - that cures everything in one swell foop - electricity to pump well water is a fraction of the cost of metered city water

AI Inc
07-08-2012, 07:12 AM
Again, thanks guys for the help so far. This has been a 2 yr battle. In the spring (May) my yard looks like a golf course. Its so perfect it could be in a magizine. But as the season goes on it gets worse.

Some info to answer some of your questions.
I live in NY, saratoga county. The soil is pure sand.
I have a 1" poly line going to my house from the main. Its 550'. It enters the house and is converted to 3/4" copper right off the foundation wall. The sprinkler system is 3/4" copper, outside where i convert it to 1" poly. The whole main line is 1" poly, and so are the manifolds and valves. The saddle valves are 3/4" NPT where it then has like 2' of 1/2" swing pipe to feed the 5000 heads.

The brown was a wonderful red thread that the lawn fertlizer company brought into my property. I did it myself last year but this year i decided to try a service that is a liquid slow release. I am not happy with it yet. Everyone that is suppose to be an expert tells me 20-30mins a zone is what your are suppose to water, and the locals say dont even try to keep your grass green in july. Its impossible. I run 45mins a zone every other day and by the end of the first day the surface is dry as a bone, but the front is holding is own,the back is not as nice. When you have 16zones its really hard to do much more, your talking 12 hrs of watering. I have to split it to every other day, one day the front, the other day the back. The front gets shade until about 8-9am, while the back gets sun starting at like 6am.

The red thread is out of the lawn now and its just starting to fill back in after a high N dose. The fert company tells me to reduce watering to 20mins, and i told him he was crazy. The sun exposure i have and the soil tells me 45mins is not enough. I dont think he understands my size lot, he is prob used to the .25acre lots where the soil is clay or topsoil. I say this because when you have a 38' radius, it takes some time to cover some decent amount of water into the ground. So i decided to add a few zones to water every day just to see how it works out, and it is greening up in those areas. The thing that still bugs me, and the reason for this thread was i dont get enough water (at least to my liking) close to the head, larger droplets form at the end of the curtain, its not really bad but maybe you just cant get it that perfect. I have never watered more than 45mins a zone.

I wish i could amend the soil but its way to expensive to do 75k sq feet of yard. When i designed and built the house i had to have 6k yards of dirt moved to level it out. I then realized at $25-35 a yard for topsoil, thats not going to happen. To put down 3" it would be like 8,000 yards of topsoil needed. You can do the math on that one. Even if it was $5 a yard its to much

I can take pics of the heads in action tomar morning. And some of the soil.

I do not water at night but i do start my sprinklers at 3:15 AM because it wont finish half the yard until 9:15 (6hrs later), and thats only half. If i watered at night the grass would def stay wet but i hear you shouldnt water at night, then i hear its a myth. So plain and simple i just dont do it.

The other thing is 6-7GPM seems like crap

you mentioned your lawn was all sand.dont do 45 min every other day as you are just wasting about 3/4 of it. Go the other way . less time more ofton. Thatsa the correct way to water sandy soils.

jvanvliet
07-08-2012, 09:26 AM
We need to know what type of turf he has. I doubt the turf is down on straight sand since he had a "golf course lawn" a year ago. Here, turf comes with at least 1/2" of soil and even the cheapest builders will put down 6" of top soil.

With mist heads, I need between 15 and 20 minutes of precipitation to percolate water 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch to the root zone (mpr's a little longer). Rotors (PGP's... I know :dizzy:) require 3 to 4 times as much using a #5 nozzle.

Looking at this guys #'s, I'm surprised he can lift any rotors at all. As opposed to trying to rig the irrigation from his existing water meter along with all the mickey mouse reductions, etc. Size the service line and install a separate turbo meter, a larger PVB, larger main, at least 1.5" or 2" and loop it (1" main is ridiculous for a 1.5 acre site); increase the size of the laterals to at least 1" and get rid of the swing joints.

A separate water meter will cut down on his cost since sewage is based on water usage and it will eliminate all the other line restrictions. A better bet would be to drill a well, this guys water bill has got to be more than my mortgage payments. Another suggestion is quit fishing here and get a local irrigation company, who is familiar with the local conditions, to evaluate the system.

turbosl2
07-08-2012, 09:54 AM
you mentioned your lawn was all sand.dont do 45 min every other day as you are just wasting about 3/4 of it. Go the other way . less time more ofton. Thatsa the correct way to water sandy soils.

I did some research and was told that can promote shallow roots and alot of weeds. I am not expert and over the last 2 years really have not found what works best.

Here are some pics of the #5 nozzles in the heads. I renozzled about 75% of the system.

turbosl2
07-08-2012, 09:58 AM
We need to know what type of turf he has. I doubt the turf is down on straight sand since he had a "golf course lawn" a year ago. Here, turf comes with at least 1/2" of soil and even the cheapest builders will put down 6" of top soil.

With mist heads, I need between 15 and 20 minutes of precipitation to percolate water 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch to the root zone (mpr's a little longer). Rotors (PGP's... I know :dizzy:) require 3 to 4 times as much using a #5 nozzle.

Looking at this guys #'s, I'm surprised he can lift any rotors at all. As opposed to trying to rig the irrigation from his existing water meter along with all the mickey mouse reductions, etc. Size the service line and install a separate turbo meter, a larger PVB, larger main, at least 1.5" or 2" and loop it (1" main is ridiculous for a 1.5 acre site); increase the size of the laterals to at least 1" and get rid of the swing joints.

A separate water meter will cut down on his cost since sewage is based on water usage and it will eliminate all the other line restrictions. A better bet would be to drill a well, this guys water bill has got to be more than my mortgage payments. Another suggestion is quit fishing here and get a local irrigation company, who is familiar with the local conditions, to evaluate the system.

Turf is pure sand. I built this house on a private lot and the cost of topsoil was was to much. All the soil that was on top of the site was moved to a driveway area to raise it up. 6000 yards was moved, what i have left is 100% pure sand. Its like trying to grow grass at the beach. My sewage is not based on water usage because we are on a septic.

The laterals are all 1". The swing pipe is you think could be holding me back?
The lawn looked like a golf course 2 years in a row now, but only in the spring for the months of April & May

Kiril
07-08-2012, 10:30 AM
I wish i could amend the soil but its way to expensive to do 75k sq feet of yard. When i designed and built the house i had to have 6k yards of dirt moved to level it out. I then realized at $25-35 a yard for topsoil, thats not going to happen. To put down 3" it would be like 8,000 yards of topsoil needed. You can do the math on that one. Even if it was $5 a yard its to much

How much money are you going to spend in irrigation, ferts, pesticides as a result of poor soil conditions? With respect to your irrigation, you need to stop guessing and listening to the "professional" idiots and do a full audit of your property (irrigation, soils, plants) .... that is unless you want to keep shooting in the dark and hoping it all works out.

I can take pics of the heads in action tomar morning. And some of the soil.

The irrigation pics are worthless, the soil pics are not and you are quite likely not on "pure" sand. I pull a soil report from a random 22000 acre area in your county and the soils are predominately sandy loams, silt loam, loamy sand. Sands are marked mostly as fine to very fine with the loamy sands running sand content in the 70-90% range. All other soils, which make up the vast majority of the area I selected, have sand contents well below that range.

greenmonster304
07-08-2012, 10:32 AM
The laterals are all 1". The swing pipe is you think could be holding me back?
The lawn looked like a golf course 2 years in a row now, but only in the spring for the months of April & May

You keep asking about the swing joints I think they are the least of your problems. My lawn looked great in April and may too and I don't have an irrigation system.
Posted via Mobile Device

Kiril
07-08-2012, 10:36 AM
I did some research and was told that can promote shallow roots and alot of weeds.

It can, and there is no good reason you can't develop an extensive effective root zone in your soil unless you are sitting on a shallow restrictive layer you haven't told us about.

Duekster
07-08-2012, 10:40 AM
Funny / swing pipe will cause some what of a pressure drop but not at the 4 to 5 GPM when used to connect heads in short runs.

FIMCO-MEISTER
07-08-2012, 11:19 AM
Water the root zone you have not the root zone you think you should have. A-1 in my opinion is right. Watering 45 minutes in sandy soil as you describe your situation being is not the way I'd go about it. Get a Lincoln moisture meter from forestry products. Water 45 minutes and take a moisture reading. Do that every hour and you will find the next optimal time to water. Then start cutting back on the amount of water being applied until your initial moisture reading of the root zone shows the sweet spot amount in which you water the root zone but don't waste water that is just infiltrating below the root zone. Might also want to consider a fertilizer injection system that puts out a small amount of fertilizer with every irrigation. right now you are in a yo yo situation. You need to eliminate as much of the yo yo you can. Learn to do a cats cradle. (applause for weak allegory of the week)

I'd find a free source of compost and start a regular application program.

Kiril
07-08-2012, 11:25 AM
Pete, if you want a deeper root zone you have to water past the current root zone depth. I do agree on starting a compost topdress program if the compost is good to high quality.

AI Inc
07-08-2012, 11:30 AM
I did some research and was told that can promote shallow roots and alot of weeds. I am not expert and over the last 2 years really have not found what works best.

Here are some pics of the #5 nozzles in the heads. I renozzled about 75% of the system.



You were told that by someone who knows nothing about soil structure. Either ammend the soil or water it the way it needs to be watered.

Wet_Boots
07-08-2012, 11:49 AM
Unless there are some bargain water rates I haven't heard about, that lawn could easily drink up over a thousand dollars a season in water bills. At some point, even a five thousand dollar well is going to pay for itself.

AI Inc
07-08-2012, 11:56 AM
Lets not lose sight of the fact that if watering the way he is watering was working so well , this conversation would not be taking place.

Wet_Boots
07-08-2012, 11:59 AM
maxipaws suck ass and will not perform any better than the 5000's when distance is a concern.............you do realize that a Maxipaw will spray 35 feet with only 25 psi at the head, and with effective coverage, too

Kiril
07-08-2012, 12:16 PM
you do realize that a Maxipaw will spray 35 feet with only 25 psi at the head, and with effective coverage, too

........ Silly boy. Go ahead and compare radius with nozzle output.

White Gardens
07-08-2012, 12:43 PM
I've been randomly following this thread, and would the OP be better off installing a booster pump for the system to help get better coverage?

I understand there might be a design problem, but just thinking out-loud on the easiest fix for this situation.

That and one thing that stands out is the fact that the soil is a sandy soil type. From my experience as a farmboy and irrigating sandy fields is a tough proposition at best. Seems like as soon as our irrigation pivots made a full turn, you just went right back out and turned it on again.

So even with the best designed system, the lateral movement of water is next to none, and getting even growth across the lawn in extreme heat and evaporation days to me seems like a waste of time.

.....

Wet_Boots
07-08-2012, 01:00 PM
I would have thought about a booster, but the property size points more towards increasing the supply, and better to go all in on a well, maybe with an advanced pump, that could work with larger zones in the future.

Mike Leary
07-08-2012, 01:21 PM
A lot of areas will not permit a well if served by city water. I still think the OP has to get a grasp on his supply volume, pressure can be dealt with, but gpm cannot unless the supply can be increased with a larger meter, piping, etc. www.betterwaterind.com/flowmeter.html

Wet_Boots
07-08-2012, 01:53 PM
Lots of shallow wells went in during the early 60's drought, and deep wells too. Only later on did towns start getting protective, especially those with their own well-water systems. Indeed, I tried to talk one municipality into letting me dig a meter pit curbside, in order to tee into the very-long 3/4-inch copper supply line, so as to get a better flow. They weren't going for anything outside the box, and when I suggested the homeowners might seek to drill a deep well if they couldn't get the curbside meter, the town response was a calm absolute "No they won't."

Mike Leary
07-08-2012, 02:04 PM
Even if a well was permitted (doubtful), there would be the little issue of a Reduced-Pressure Backflow Assembly needed. In a lot of areas, an RP is also required for a booster pump and any sort of fertilizer injection into the system.

Felco #2
07-08-2012, 02:11 PM
Can you draw from surface waters in New York? Looks like there could be a lake or a river in the background but may just be something else in the pic.

turbosl2
07-08-2012, 02:51 PM
Water the root zone you have not the root zone you think you should have. A-1 in my opinion is right. Watering 45 minutes in sandy soil as you describe your situation being is not the way I'd go about it. Get a Lincoln moisture meter from forestry products. Water 45 minutes and take a moisture reading. Do that every hour and you will find the next optimal time to water. Then start cutting back on the amount of water being applied until your initial moisture reading of the root zone shows the sweet spot amount in which you water the root zone but don't waste water that is just infiltrating below the root zone. Might also want to consider a fertilizer injection system that puts out a small amount of fertilizer with every irrigation. right now you are in a yo yo situation. You need to eliminate as much of the yo yo you can. Learn to do a cats cradle. (applause for weak allegory of the week)

I'd find a free source of compost and start a regular application program.

I will give this a try. I think its a great idea. If i could cut back the zone times it is possible to water more frequently, such as in the AM, then again maybe at dinner time. Right now i dont water at dinner because of all the issues about fungas since the grass would be wet all night. right now at 40mins a zone its a must to break the system into two parts (one day front, the other back). The compost is just way to much work. Noone that i know would even try to do anything with almost 2 acres. I dont turn the sprinklers on until end of may, june 1. The system seems to keep the grass to hold its own while everyone else around here is burnt and dormant, unless they have shade or all weeds, the weeds seem to keep it green.

I will lookup that moisture meter and order it up.

I know it sounded like a good idea to just throw some topsoil down but noone in there right mind will spend that kind of money, you just have to live with what you got. And i think with your idea of the moisture meter it will prob bring me to watering totally different.

How far do grass roots usually penetrate? I was told that every other day long watering per zone would force them to grow deeper in search of water. Whatever that means

turbosl2
07-08-2012, 02:56 PM
You were told that by someone who knows nothing about soil structure. Either ammend the soil or water it the way it needs to be watered.

I would rather water it the way its suppose to. I am new to this and trying to keep a positive outlook. I have no issues with changing the watering schedule to what will work better.

With the pointers everyone just needs to remember 16zones, at 20 mins a zone were talking over 5hrs to do the whole system. I still have not had a clear answer if watering at night is good or bad. Right now i start at 3:15am and have not seen an issue yet. The red thread appeared in may, and mostly in areas that trugreen did not fertilize properly. They had a guy walk the property with the little wand to do it. The recent application they brought a permagreen ride on unit that applied it much more even. Any area that was underfertilized seemed to be weedy and develop red thread. Its just starting to grow out

greenmonster304
07-08-2012, 02:57 PM
Even if a well was permitted (doubtful), there would be the little issue of a Reduced-Pressure Backflow Assembly needed. In a lot of areas, an RP is also required for a booster pump and any sort of fertilizer injection into the system.

At least in this part on NY RPZs are not required on wells unless connected to a street supply and then it is on the street main. But this is Suffolk county though.

if it was only for irrigation and the soil is as sandy as he says he could "wash down" a casing. In Maryland my brother washed down a 40' 4" casing with 10' of screen using two trash pumps with bentonite. He put in a 1 hp sub and got 18 gpm at 60.

turbosl2
07-08-2012, 03:00 PM
Unless there are some bargain water rates I haven't heard about, that lawn could easily drink up over a thousand dollars a season in water bills. At some point, even a five thousand dollar well is going to pay for itself.

You are correct, its about 2500 gallons a day to do half the lawn, since i have it split in front one day, back the other. I have the well parts. I have two types of pumps, 3 points. 40gallon bladder tank...etc. I just have not put it in.

turbosl2
07-08-2012, 03:01 PM
you do realize that a Maxipaw will spray 35 feet with only 25 psi at the head, and with effective coverage, too

I like this idea, i am ordering 2 of these to test them out.

turbosl2
07-08-2012, 03:03 PM
........ Silly boy. Go ahead and compare radius with nozzle output.

Uhh, i dont see the point here. Wet Boots is correct. At 25psi and the same distnace the maxipaw puts out 1.5times more precipitation per hr than my 5000 heads

Wet_Boots
07-08-2012, 03:16 PM
Even if a well was permitted (doubtful), there would be the little issue of a Reduced-Pressure Backflow Assembly needed. In a lot of areas, an RP is also required for a booster pump and any sort of fertilizer injection into the system.I think you are assuming some connection between the system and the house, which wouldn't be a given with a new well

........ Silly boy. Go ahead and compare radius with nozzle output.
http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=252593&stc=1&d=1341760506

If you believe that chart, then get your video camera and run through a demo of the system that you installed that has 5000-series rotor heads running at 25 psi.

In fact, can anyone confirm they did an install with 5000-series rotors running at 25 psi? Or even did a zone expansion with those heads running at 25 psi.

A zone expansion is more likely for low pressure examples. I used the Minipaw and Maxipaw heads in low-pressure neighborhoods, but I never designed with 25 psi head pressures, but I do remember expanding one system's existing zones to cover new areas, and had a number of the Maxipaw (08 nozzle) doing 34 feet or so, at the very lowest head pressures.

And for anyone who wants to point at a chart like it means anything, tell us about the system of Falcon heads you installed, with 30 psi at the heads (or maybe even 40 psi)

Mike Leary
07-08-2012, 03:36 PM
I think you are assuming some connection between the system and the house, which wouldn't be a given with a new well

Given the price of water, most smart purveyors will figure you'll hook-up to the house, which is a cross-connection and demands backflow.

FIMCO-MEISTER
07-08-2012, 03:51 PM
I will give this a try. I think its a great idea. If i could cut back the zone times it is possible to water more frequently, such as in the AM, then again maybe at dinner time. Right now i dont water at dinner because of all the issues about fungas since the grass would be wet all night. right now at 40mins a zone its a must to break the system into two parts (one day front, the other back). The compost is just way to much work. Noone that i know would even try to do anything with almost 2 acres. I dont turn the sprinklers on until end of may, june 1. The system seems to keep the grass to hold its own while everyone else around here is burnt and dormant, unless they have shade or all weeds, the weeds seem to keep it green.

I will lookup that moisture meter and order it up.

I know it sounded like a good idea to just throw some topsoil down but noone in there right mind will spend that kind of money, you just have to live with what you got. And i think with your idea of the moisture meter it will prob bring me to watering totally different.

How far do grass roots usually penetrate? I was told that every other day long watering per zone would force them to grow deeper in search of water. Whatever that means

BCG can give you a better description but to get roots deep takes hands on testing and the moisture meter will help definitely. Root growth is genetic as well as situational. Roots don't know water is below them. They grow discover water then take advantage of it. To get roots deep requires an extended period of watering just beyond the root zone and let the roots go a tad deeper then water just a little more beyond the root zone etc. The key is to not water until the turf start to get water stress. as you do this over the course of several seasons you will notice it keeps taking longer and longer for the grass to get into water stress. That is a reflection of root growth. It helps as well to let the turf grow longer before mowing. Dig a nice hole in several places, pull up the turf and measure the root length. That will help with how far you push the moisture probe in.

I'm not using laymen terms because you will get sleepyhead if I do. So this is very diluted explaining.

My reasoning for your fertilizing is because with sandy soil your fertilizer washes down pretty quick out of the plants root zone. So if you fertilize three times a year try to apply that fertilizer in the same total amount but do it in smaller portions 10-12 times. A fertilizer injector will apply a small amount of fertilizer every time you water. That would be ideal in my opinion.

If the educated anal want to parse this please feel free to do so.

jvanvliet
07-08-2012, 05:06 PM
This is a circle jerk; He needs to increase his supply & pipe; he needs to ammend his soil with organic matter; he needs to call a local irrigation company and a landscape company that's familiar with the area.

All the professionals here are idiots with the exception of Kiril; he just comes across as an idiot to fit in.

Does the gerbil still live?

Wet_Boots
07-08-2012, 05:27 PM
There are good lawns on uber-sandy soil, but you have to bomb them with water. The OP should look into getting a well. A one-inch mainline can work fine with 12-gpm zones

DanaMac
07-08-2012, 05:32 PM
All the professionals here are idiots

How so? He is not going to get a bigger supply, he is not going to tear up the yard and amend the soil, he is not going to tear out the install and start over. So what else is there? He can make changes that will make the system better, but not perfect, and then live with the areas that are not perfect. The areas that are weak will probably be fine half of the growing season, and be stressed the other half, but not dead. I think we all have told him he needs a better design and/or better supply and pressure.

Wet_Boots
07-08-2012, 05:45 PM
People drill wells all the time, and it's a no-brainer if you get the money back in water-bill savings.

Mike Leary
07-08-2012, 05:51 PM
People drill wells all the time, and it's a no-brainer if you get the money back in water-bill savings.

Not around here, the State wants to know how much you're taking, how deep you're going and what you're doing with it. There are restrictions and heavy paperwork is required it pull off a well, especially for irrigation.

DanaMac
07-08-2012, 05:51 PM
People drill wells all the time,

Not here they don't. The only homes I have ever seen here, with a separate well, are at least 30-40 years old. And even those wells were usually for the home as well, until they changed over to city water, but left the pump and well for irrigation. The newer areas of town that do have wells, never have a separate well for irrigation. Not sure why, maybe has to do with water rights and laws here. I don't know why and don't want to research it.

Many of the areas here on wells, are still metered. Yes I said that right, some homes with wells are metered. Meaning they are allotted a certain number of gallons per year, and going over they get hit with some serious overage charges. So I am assuming that my response above, is due to water rights issues.

Mike Leary
07-08-2012, 06:08 PM
We have some very shallow artisian aquifers up here and the State is not interested in us plugging into those. Seems like one of the forms we had to fill out was "Acquiring Public Waters."

Wet_Boots
07-08-2012, 06:14 PM
Different parts of the country. There is a vast amount of water flowing underground in the Northeast, fed by the Great Lakes.

And besides, the OP may have shallow water to access, so he can invest his Maxipaw money in a well point and a good jet pump.

Mike Leary
07-08-2012, 07:00 PM
After 112 posts, I think we've done our best, for once.

Wet_Boots
07-08-2012, 07:36 PM
After 112 posts, I think we've done our best, for once.I still want to hear from someone who sold a job with 5004 heads operating at 25 psi :p

Mike Leary
07-08-2012, 07:59 PM
I still want to hear from someone who sold a job with 5004 heads operating at 25 psi :p

I can't wait to see the pics.

FIMCO-MEISTER
07-08-2012, 08:46 PM
This is a circle jerk; He needs to increase his supply & pipe; he needs to ammend his soil with organic matter; he needs to call a local irrigation company and a landscape company that's familiar with the area.

All the professionals here are idiots with the exception of Kiril; he just comes across as an idiot to fit in.

Does the gerbil still live?

Or not. I've had so many customers that want manna from heaven without the penance. Sometimes all you can do with some folks is get them to a point where they say "I can live with this".
Posted via Mobile Device

Mike Leary
07-08-2012, 08:52 PM
All the professionals here are idiots with the exception of Kiril; he just comes across as an idiot to fit in.

::::Sigh:::: All those years wasted 'cause I was an idiot to begin with.

turbosl2
07-08-2012, 09:28 PM
How so? He is not going to get a bigger supply, he is not going to tear up the yard and amend the soil, he is not going to tear out the install and start over. So what else is there? He can make changes that will make the system better, but not perfect, and then live with the areas that are not perfect. The areas that are weak will probably be fine half of the growing season, and be stressed the other half, but not dead. I think we all have told him he needs a better design and/or better supply and pressure.

At least someone can see it from the other side. Its easy to say do this, this and this, but sometimes people have no idea what type of work were talking about. Amend the soil, 8000yards is need to put down 3" of topsoil. I wouldnt even tell someone that because your talking hundreds of thousands of dollars in topsoil.
I am glad you said this, i have been nice and tried to listen to everyone and stay positive, but some of the negativity and ideas are just ridiculous. Alot of info on here has been great but come on, lets think logical and practical.
You couldnt have said it more clear. I am NOT going to amend the soil, i am not going to change my main line to the house (you have 5k to get a excavator in here and dig below the frost line to change a line). 1" is oversized for the house, but undersized to irrigate almost to acres.
I cant do a shallow well, were in all sand and there is no water here. A deep well is prob 10k. So what does that leave me. To work with what i have and make it better. Thats where i will filter out the BS ideas and snide comments and do what i think will work best for me.

Step 1
I have rejetted the whole yard to get the water to lay down more even.

Step 2
Purchase a soil tester to determine an optimal water schedule and stop listening to ******s say this many minutes per zone, every other day...etc.
I think this was the best advice, figure out a schedule that will work with 16zones and will keep the soil moisture where it needs to be. Even if that means watering 4 times a day for 10mins, or 1 time a day for 40mins. It doesnt matter, whatever it needs it will get.

turbosl2
07-08-2012, 09:30 PM
Different parts of the country. There is a vast amount of water flowing underground in the Northeast, fed by the Great Lakes.

And besides, the OP may have shallow water to access, so he can invest his Maxipaw money in a well point and a good jet pump.

I have the equipment. I thank you for your help.

I think were done here, to many negative remarks

Mike Leary
07-08-2012, 09:38 PM
At least someone can see it from the other side. Its easy to say do this, this and this, but sometimes people have no idea what type of work were talking about. Amend the soil, 8000yards is need to put down 3" of topsoil. I wouldnt even tell someone that because your talking hundreds of thousands of dollars in topsoil.
I am glad you said this, i have been nice and tried to listen to everyone and stay positive, but some of the negativity and ideas are just ridiculous. Alot of info on here has been great but come on, lets think logical and practical.
You couldnt have said it more clear. I am NOT going to amend the soil, i am not going to change my main line to the house (you have 5k to get a excavator in here and dig below the frost line to change a line). 1" is oversized for the house, but undersized to irrigate almost to acres.
I cant do a shallow well, were in all sand and there is no water here. A deep well is prob 10k. So what does that leave me. To work with what i have and make it better. Thats where i will filter out the BS ideas and snide comments and do what i think will work best for me.

Step 1
I have rejetted the whole yard to get the water to lay down more even.

Step 2
Purchase a soil tester to determine an optimal water schedule and stop listening to ******s say this many minutes per zone, every other day...etc.
I think this was the best advice, figure out a schedule that will work with 16zones and will keep the soil moisture where it needs to be. Even if that means watering 4 times a day for 10mins, or 1 time a day for 40mins. It doesnt matter, whatever it needs it will get.

Thanks for wasting all our time with what I thought were reasonable, professional opinions. Next time go post on the HO forum.

greenmonster304
07-08-2012, 09:51 PM
Thanks for wasting all our time with what I thought were reasonable, professional opinions. Next time go post on the HO forum.

Yes I agree this thread stayed surprisingly civil.
Posted via Mobile Device

Mike Leary
07-08-2012, 10:22 PM
Yes I agree this thread stayed surprisingly civil.

I did, too. The OP got $20,000 bucks of free advice and had the temerity to think HE was being taken advantage of! I'm getting tired of these type of threads on the Pro Irri forum.

Kiril
07-08-2012, 10:32 PM
Uhh, i dont see the point here. Wet Boots is correct. At 25psi and the same distnace the maxipaw puts out 1.5times more precipitation per hr than my 5000 heads

If you don't see the point, then you are in trouble. What is your head spacing again? What did you discover when you reduced your flow rate?

You can go ahead and install maxipaws to your hearts content, matters not one iota to me, and when it doesn't work you can come back here and tell us how right boots was.

If you believe that chart, then get your video camera and run through a demo of the system that you installed that has 5000-series rotor heads running at 25 psi.

If you aren't going to believe the chart, then you can't believe any charts. FYI, I do have systems that are in the 20's operating pressure. Further the OP hasn't even confirmed nozzle pressure so how is it you know what it is?

But heh, why don't you go and take some pictures and run an audit while you are at it of your "superior" impact. Oh yea, and I already compared a rotor to an impact with respect to uniformity .... did you forget already old man?

Mike Leary
07-08-2012, 10:39 PM
If you don't see the point, then you are in trouble. What is your head spacing again? What did you discover when you reduced your flow rate?

You can go ahead and install maxipaws to your hearts content, matters not one iota to me, and when it doesn't work you can come back here and tell us how right boots was.

Nope, he can't come back here again after his diatribe, forum rules, you know.

Kiril
07-08-2012, 10:41 PM
Thanks for wasting all our time with what I thought were reasonable, professional opinions.

The most reasonable and professional being this one.

With respect to your irrigation, you need to stop guessing and listening to the "professional" idiots and do a full audit of your property (irrigation, soils, plants).... that is unless you want to keep shooting in the dark and hoping it all works out.

Funny how it got ignored, yet how can one effectively manage irrigation without doing the above? Answer .... YOU CAN'T! Hell, you can't even make a decision about what direction to go in to solve the problem without doing an audit.

turbosl2
07-08-2012, 11:06 PM
I did, too. The OP got $20,000 bucks of free advice and had the temerity to think HE was being taken advantage of! I'm getting tired of these type of threads on the Pro Irri forum.

Your advice wasnt worth $2. Anyone can beat up on something they didnt install and recommend ridiculous ideas. To me a person that can solve a problem in a way other than saying you need all new, or you need this, its only 200k dollars worth of topsoil...etc, you system is junk...etc knows what they are talking about.

At least some of you recognize where to draw the line, others....idk. Time to welcome yourself to the real world (you know, the one thats outside and not behind a computer.) I probably accomplished more in the last 3 yrs than some of you will in a lifetime.

To the others on here that are not cocky a-holes thanks for the advice, i do appreciate it.

I will take your recomendations on the heads and watering schedule and make the best of it. I will ask the appropriate questions on another forum regarding some watering schedules, and look into the moisture meter.

I think its time to shut it down, to many pissants now.

Mike Leary
07-08-2012, 11:31 PM
I probably accomplished more in the last 3 yrs than some of you will in a lifetime..

So?......Don't call me to service your trashed system, I have my scruples and you would be at the bottom of my list with that comment, which is the most egocentric comment I've heard in many years.

turbosl2
07-08-2012, 11:38 PM
good thing, thanks

Later

Mike Leary
07-08-2012, 11:40 PM
Later

Never...........ever.

1idejim
07-08-2012, 11:44 PM
Your advice wasnt worth $2. Anyone can beat up on something they didnt install and recommend ridiculous ideas. To me a person that can solve a problem in a way other than saying you need all new, or you need this, its only 200k dollars worth of topsoil...etc, you system is junk...etc knows what they are talking about.

At least some of you recognize where to draw the line, others....idk. Time to welcome yourself to the real world (you know, the one thats outside and not behind a computer.) I probably accomplished more in the last 3 yrs than some of you will in a lifetime.

To the others on here that are not cocky a-holes thanks for the advice, i do appreciate it.

I will take your recomendations on the heads and watering schedule and make the best of it. I will ask the appropriate questions on another forum regarding some watering schedules, and look into the moisture meter.

I think its time to shut it down, to many pissants now.

make sure that you have taken working pressure measurements of the first and last heads on each zone. anyone worth a damn will ask for those numbers.

you can discuss maxipaws with boots on any forum since he is the big kahuna on them all
Posted via Mobile Device

turbosl2
07-08-2012, 11:51 PM
I will do this, i need to order the pitot tube gauge to do this.
Thanks guys

1idejim
07-08-2012, 11:54 PM
I will do this, i need to order the pitot tube gauge to do this.
Thanks guys

good luck
Posted via Mobile Device

FIMCO-MEISTER
07-09-2012, 12:21 AM
The bottom line is you want us to ignore the fact your soil sux and still solve your problems. That's no different than putting a 2" slab on clay and wondering how you can prevent foundation problems. Irrigation can only go so far but it doesn't solve a bad soil situation. My suggestions are trying to get your irrigation system to do things your soil should be doing for you. Quit thinking there is a panacea for your soil situation. There isn't nor will there ever be.

White Gardens
07-09-2012, 01:18 AM
From a landscapers perspective.

I'd xeroscape about 60% or better of the lawn. Use a minimal amount of highly drought tolerant plantings and re-configure the irrigation system to hit those zones.

Then use the other 40% of the lawn to amend and establish turf areas for the kiddos to play around in.

I know that the OP is beyond that point, but to me it's all about balance. Not only creating your traditional green-spaces but other points of interest on the property without breaking the bank for one, and over-using water resources for another.

Just my two cents I guess.


.....

Wet_Boots
07-09-2012, 05:12 AM
..........If you aren't going to believe the chart, then you can't believe any charts. FYI, I do have systems that are in the 20's operating pressure. Further the OP hasn't even confirmed nozzle pressure so how is it you know what it is?...........Given the spray radii, the head pressures can be inferred. You show us video of your install of 5004 heads running at 25 psi head pressure.

Of course I don't believe in charts. It only takes a few liar charts to make anyone realize that. Plastic gear drive rotors were born in the era of impact heads, and they would put anything on a chart to make it look like the new heads could replace the old ones.

Would you stake your reputation on a Rainbird Falcon head having a 59-foot radius at 40 psi? Good luck with that. Charts lie. Get over it.

AI Inc
07-09-2012, 06:25 AM
Not around here, the State wants to know how much you're taking, how deep you're going and what you're doing with it. There are restrictions and heavy paperwork is required it pull off a well, especially for irrigation.

Round here no permit needed unless your pulling more then 54,000 gal a day.

jvanvliet
07-09-2012, 07:41 AM
There are good lawns on uber-sandy soil, but you have to bomb them with water. The OP should look into getting a well. A one-inch mainline can work fine with 12-gpm zones

Maybe it can; I don't think it's the best arrangement for a 1.5 acre site.

A well will work, or a seperate water (turbo) meter for irrigation, sized to the supply line.

jvanvliet
07-09-2012, 08:13 AM
Your advice wasnt worth $2. Anyone can beat up on something they didnt install and recommend ridiculous ideas. To me a person that can solve a problem in a way other than saying you need all new, or you need this, its only 200k dollars worth of topsoil...etc, you system is junk...etc knows what they are talking about.

At least some of you recognize where to draw the line, others....idk. Time to welcome yourself to the real world (you know, the one thats outside and not behind a computer.) I probably accomplished more in the last 3 yrs than some of you will in a lifetime.

To the others on here that are not cocky a-holes thanks for the advice, i do appreciate it.

I will take your recomendations on the heads and watering schedule and make the best of it. I will ask the appropriate questions on another forum regarding some watering schedules, and look into the moisture meter.

I think its time to shut it down, to many pissants now.

Well now, there's gratitude for you...:hammerhead:

I'm surprised somebody didn't show him how to change the laws of physics or the dynamics of botany and entomology because, other than the suggestions here, that's the only way nimrod is going to achieve his goal.

The fact that he boasts about having put sod down directly on top of "pure sand" and the Mickey Mouse rigging of his sprinklers suggest a level of supreme narcisism and incompetence of elephantine proportions.

I love people who get good suggestions and then reject them all, and the people who offer them, because they don't meet their desire to overcome significant and fundamental design flaws for no money. :waving:

jabbo
07-09-2012, 10:04 AM
After reading through all these pages all I can say is "wow". I think this thread went from alright to bad and then to horrible. I don't think the OP has debunked all the recommendations that have been metioned, he is just in no mood(physically or financially) to carry most of them out. As far as the sandy soil, I know exactly where he is coming from. Although I'm from a different zone than he is, I have had to deal with it. And really after 12 years of good centipede grass, I'm starting to get some darker dirt in the top 3-4 inches from all the thatch breaking down. I also have to run my system ALOT especially when it has not rained in 2 weeks and the daytime highs are in the 90's or higher. But I am on a deep well and get by. I have a 1.5 hp submersible and get right at 13 gpm at 55psi at well. I only have 3-4 heads per zone. 1" mainline and laterals. 3/4" hunter swing joints. Most heads are pgp with #5-90,#6 or 7-180, and # 8 or 9-360 except where I have added some pgp ultras. But I have since changed all the red nozzles out with the blue ones. I water everyday!!! I have to in order to keep the top from drying out. I know that this is not suppose to be the way to water but it works! I do get some funges since it is some humid down here but no enough to cause a problem. I have 12 zones counting my drip zone for flower beds. My heads will throw 30-35 feet with the bigger nozzles. I really like the pgp ultras! They cover good even up close as long as they are hitting the other head....

I think that if the OP had not spaced the heads so far apart he would have had head to head coverage. I also know most of you know this already. But I'm with you guys and think he has only 2 good options. Either add more heads to make up the lost distance or drill a well and run a 1 1/2" or 2" mainline... Hope this helps.

Kiril
07-09-2012, 10:05 AM
Given the spray radii, the head pressures can be inferred.

:laugh:

You show us video of your install of 5004 heads running at 25 psi head pressure.

Keep dreaming boots.

Of course I don't believe in charts.

Then why are you posting charts as proof of concept that your idea will work?

Would you stake your reputation on a Rainbird Falcon head having a 59-foot radius at 40 psi? Good luck with that.

Would you stake your reputation that the maxipaw is going to effectively irrigate an area with a head spacing of 47 feet and nozzle pressure in the 20's? Good luck with that.

Wet_Boots
07-09-2012, 11:29 AM
Would you stake your reputation that the maxipaw is going to effectively irrigate an area with a head spacing of 47 feet and nozzle pressure in the 20's? Good luck with that.That would be a bet you'd lose, because the head operates at pressure in the 20's, and 47 feet is fine for triangular spacing of a head with a spray diameter beyond 65 feet. But again, I don't design on the edge of performance. I see it mostly on other systems, and on the rare occurrences of milking extra coverage from existing zones

Kiril
07-09-2012, 12:15 PM
That would be a bet you'd lose, because the head operates at pressure in the 20's, and 47 feet is fine for triangular spacing of a head with a spray diameter beyond 65 feet. But again, I don't design on the edge of performance. I see it mostly on other systems, and on the rare occurrences of milking extra coverage from existing zones

Where are you getting this .... spray diameter of 65 feet, or even 47 feet? Would that be the "triangular" design the OP has? FYI, it ain't triangular or square, but don't let that stop you from your typical BS .... if it gets wet it works. The 5000 will git ur wet too and you see how well that is working. Based on your philosophy, all the OP needs to do is increase his run times until all the areas get sufficiently wet, because as long as there is a little overlap of the patterns, that is good enough.

You know, because water is free and run times can be 24/7. :hammerhead:

Mike Leary
07-09-2012, 12:27 PM
I can just see the RB REPS giving each other high fives, saying, "Until Boots came along we wondered how to dump those dusty Maxis in the back room."

Wet_Boots
07-09-2012, 12:38 PM
Maxipaws work, my little nimrods, and always will.

I wait for the moment when one of the Maxipaw haters will put hard money on any residential gear drive head spraying more than 32 feet at 25 psi, while giving good standalone coverage.

Mike Leary
07-09-2012, 12:52 PM
I did do a job where I was telling the client that the new gear-drives were more efficient, plus quieter. He looked at me and said, "Hell, I grew up on a farm and I LIKE that sound!" He got Maxis.

Wet_Boots
07-09-2012, 01:13 PM
....and to echo the ancient days, some folks in the pre-central-air-conditioning era got ticked off at the neighbors who had impact heads running in the wee hours, and they would phone in noise complaints.

FIMCO-MEISTER
07-09-2012, 02:22 PM
Maxipaws work, my little nimrods, and always will.

I wait for the moment when one of the Maxipaw haters will put hard money on any residential gear drive head spraying more than 32 feet at 25 psi, while giving good standalone coverage.

Maxis work is right. Is the head a pia to deal with? Yes but if you asked me to place rotors 45' apart and I had to choose between these three- PGPs, 5000s, or Maxis. I'd choose the maxis. The lower the pressure the better it will outperform the other two.

FIMCO-MEISTER
07-09-2012, 02:44 PM
Turf is pure sand. I built this house on a private lot and the cost of topsoil was was to much. All the soil that was on top of the site was moved to a driveway area to raise it up. 6000 yards was moved, what i have left is 100% pure sand. Its like trying to grow grass at the beach. My sewage is not based on water usage because we are on a septic.

This is what i don't get. Why would anybody in their right mind move valuable top soil and use it to raise a driveway. Whatever this dude achieved over the last three years in his life he totally undermined with this bonehead decision.

Wet_Boots
07-09-2012, 03:39 PM
I remember one low-pressure system fed from a centrifugal pump by a brook, with heads in a line down the middle of a back yard about 70 feet wide. This was in ancient days, before Maxipaws, and nothing in stock made a good replacement for heads shooting almost 40 feet at 30 psi. The original heads were W*M gear drives that had a higher trajectory than today's heads.

turbosl2
07-09-2012, 10:25 PM
This is what i don't get. Why would anybody in their right mind move valuable top soil and use it to raise a driveway. Whatever this dude achieved over the last three years in his life he totally undermined with this bonehead decision.

It was neve top soil so you dont know what your talking about. 6000yards were moved to raise a low spot for a 550' driveway.
When you have to make a decision to either raise the driveway to get into the property, or grow grass only an idiot would care about the grass. The soil was from all pine trees around anyway, and still sand.

turbosl2
07-09-2012, 10:28 PM
I just cruised through a friends neighborhood and saw everyone with there rotors running. They were only shooting a distance of about 15' but the stream was almost pure mist. They seemed to lay the water down nicely. I will get some Maxis and see how it works.

Wet_Boots
07-09-2012, 10:32 PM
It's too bad that during all that soil removal, a deep hole wasn't dug to serve as a water source

turbosl2
07-09-2012, 11:11 PM
Ya i know, but where i am i know it would have to be a deep well.

Mike Leary
07-09-2012, 11:12 PM
I just cruised through a friends neighborhood and saw everyone with there rotors running. They were only shooting a distance of about 15' but the stream was almost pure mist. They seemed to lay the water down nicely. I will get some Maxis and see how it works.

...................................:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Mike Leary
07-09-2012, 11:50 PM
I probably accomplished more in the last 3 yrs than some of you will in a lifetime..

..............................Geez, I love that line! :hammerhead:

jvanvliet
07-10-2012, 08:14 AM
I just cruised through a friends neighborhood and saw everyone with there rotors running. They were only shooting a distance of about 15' but the stream was almost pure mist. They seemed to lay the water down nicely. I will get some Maxis and see how it works.

15' of pure mist through rotors? That's not good... :dizzy:

jvanvliet
07-10-2012, 08:14 AM
..............................Geez, I love that line! :hammerhead:

Guess he doesn't know how old you are:rolleyes:

Michael J. Donovan
07-10-2012, 09:30 AM
I think we can put this one to rest

thanks guys